December 2, 2012
"Finally got kipping pull-ups!"
- Jennifer, Camp Bastion, Afghanistan.
U.S. Marines officially change their physical fitness test to include pull-ups for women.
Pull-Up Instruction Series
Posted by Pukie at December 2, 2012 5:00 PM
no other pics to post ? personally I really think this one is weak, really in poor taste !
Well if they're going to be in "combat" maybe
the ability to do a pull-up is not too much to ask.
Before all you folks start about how easy it'll be to max that test, remember that currently Marines do strict deadhang pullups, not kip-ups.
Not sure what you're trying to say. I think it's safe to say that Miranda is the exception and not the rule. Maybe she should join the Marines. =)
The ability to do 20 strict unbroken pull ups does not measure how much you can carry on your back and sprint into safety. Although, the pull-up is the standard in the Marines to test upper body strength and endurance. As we all know there are variations of the pull-ups and the main muscles utilized is the lat dorsi. You also have the chin-up and mixed grip pull-up which are both allowed in the Marine Corps Physical Fitness Test and each engage different muscle groups of the upper extremity. Able to do 20 unbroken strict pull-ups is moving into the realm of muscular stamina vice explosive strength. Which is why the Marines have implemented the Combat Fitness Test which incorportes a lot of elements present in a combat environment. One of the events called Maneuver Under Fire involves dragging a casualty of equal size for 10 yards, while zigzagging through several cones then lift(fireman's carry) the casualty and carry him/her at a run for 65 yards.
Not sure if Miranda was really locking out at the bottom of each rep, although that was pretty impressive. Dead hang pull-ups will definitely be a challenge for our female Marines; they continue to challenge our male Marines semi-annually.
Kipping pullups are not intended to be the same exercise strict pull ups. They are an explosive, functional movement that allow for high intensity/high rep training. Yoy can't alter a weight you are generating more power by moving that weight the same distance faster. Strict pull ups have a place in developing strength in one specific movement abd are certainly more difficult from a strength only perspective.. To come on the crossfit boards and call anyone who performs kipping pull ups a "cheater" is not only being uneducated about the crossfit methodology but also rude and small minded. Maybe you're on the wrong website with that attitude.
@ #6 A-B, you compare strict vs. kipping pullups to military (strict) vs. a push press. Great. Then it sounds like you're saying that kipping pullups have no value because of the "momentum" generated by the hip action. Would you also say, then, that the push press has no value? I'm pretty sure THAT statement would also get you laughed out of the gym. What's more, you claimed that the different type of movement "changes the amount of weight being moved up and down." You just got yourself laughed out of physics class with that one.
Sort of a new guy here. But fom my limited understanding, kipping and strict pull-ups seem to both serve a different purpose. I myself have worked hard on dead-hang strict pull-ups for the last few years of my life. But these kipping pull-ups I've been trying lately may seem easier to get my chin over the bar but requires a lot more movement and energy than dead hang strict. At least in my opinion they do. I believe they both have value. But my question though with them... Will doing a ton of kipping pull-ups, like say a 100 for time where you may have to break them up in sets, will that net a decent amount of dead hang strict max reps? Like say at least 20 max reps? Just curious. Thanks
Why do some people have such a hardon for strict pull-ups? Kipping and butterfly pull-ups are different exercises than strict pull-ups.
I propose a WOD with max reps each of strict, kipping, and butterfly pull-ups with full recovery between disciplines.
I have a sneaking suspicion that those who discount the value of kipping and butterfly pull-ups can't do very many.
A-B, your comparison of "worm" pushups (otherwise known as "snake-ups") to kipping pull-ups is totally wrong. When an athlete snakes up during a pushup, her lower body is still being supported by the floor and is not being lifted by her arms. During a snake-up, the athlete is indeed moving less weight than a proper straight-back pushup. When an athlete is doing a pull-up however (kipping, butterfly, or strict), she is supporting her entire body weight at all times during the movement.
I don't see how you can see the results crossfit provides and still say kipping and strict pull-ups are any different. This website has been developing athletes that perform high #s of strict pull-ups using almost entirely kipping WODs for ten years. There is a journal or exercise video from years ago explicitly showing that a kipping pull-up requires a longer range of motion, produces more force, and is generally more athletic. Even more so with the butterfly. Functionally, it's just dumb to do anything strict. I'm a big guy, with long arms, and I do a little over 30 pull-ups kipping, 21 strict. Not a huge difference, but I didn't get anywhere near 20 until I started crossfit.
There's many ways to handle the combat issue, but simply stated, women can and should do 20... equality means just that. We won't ever know how many can actually hack it if they're not even allowed to try.
Females have to do the same CFT (Combat Fitness Test). I can max out pull-ups on the PFT every time. The CFT is much more difficult in my opinion. The pull ups may help my CFT score but I wouldn't consider pull-ups the deciding factor of someone being able to pull a wounded fellow Marine out of the fight. There are many factors involved.
@ a-b. you're right a kipping pull up is not a strict pull up, hence the name kipping. It is used more so for met con style workouts for that style of training effect. It is still a pull up. That's like saying an l sit pull up isn't a pull up. All are just different variations. I can tell you from my experience that improving on my kipping pull ups definitely improved my dead hangs, and they were already in the 20+ range. Just consider it a different style, that's all I'm suggesting.
@ Antonio you will find as your kipping pull ups improve do will your dead hangs. You are still strengthening the main muscle groups involved in dead hangs. Gymnasts quite often use kipping but can still hammer out the dead hangs. You WILL benefit from kipping. Hope that helps.
At least it's a start. Having to do 8 is better than the former requirements. I'm not a marine, but I'd be surprised if they sent someone out into the field if they were incapable of carrying a fellow wounded soldier.
Girls are, surprisingly, capable of doing pull-ups, kipping or not, marine or not, CrossFitter or not. I don't think there's a rule to have exceptions to, in this case.
Kipping pull-ups are, by definition, name, and execution, "pull ups." They are not strict pull-ups. Generally, one can do less strict pull-ups than kipping pull-ups. There's nothing wrong with kipping, however. In fact, the kip, or, as you generalize, the momentum you gain from driving your hip, is used in more than just pull-ups, both in real life and sports. Here, take a look:
Their hips/momentum helped them greatly to achieve what they wanted to achieve. Try to do a double-leg takedown on the wrestling mat without using that hip explosion. If you take him down, you're wrestling a fish.
"They're a cheater's way to post fancy times for WODs that include pull-ups."
The case is actually that a pull-up isn't considered to be "strict" in a scheduled wod unless posted specifically as "strict." Similar applies to cleans; cleans are squat cleans unless otherwise noted as power. So, therefore, if you're following the prescription for the wod, you're not "cheating." In fact, if you wanted to "cheat" in something like fran, you'd have to do the less-technical, but more demanding/taxing on your upper body, strict pull-ups. Even then, we wouldn't say you were "cheating;" you'd be "scaling." :)
Give it a try. You've got time to figure out if training kipping pull-ups will net you more strict pull-ups or not. I'd be willing to bet you'll find anecdotal evidence on both sides of the argument. Personally, my strict pull-ups remain between 20-25. I don't really test them too often, though.
or...OR...we can focus on the photo and congratulate a fellow athlete for accomplishing her goal. Good job Chief!
In 97 when I was in the DEP waiting to go to MCRD San Diego we had a female who was in the DEP waiting to go to MCRDPI. One month when we had all the recruits get together for a meeting she got on the bar and knocked out about 6 dead hang pull ups like it was nothing. Left some of the guys standing there thinking, what the hell? It was pretty funny. Turns out she was a swimmer in high school so she was in really good shape, the FAH was nothing for her to max out.
12 dead hang push ups is more impressive than 30-40 kipping (traditional kip) or even 50 + butterfly (competition pull-ups).
Kipping pullups are a great metabolic stressor, but do not not help the raw strength carryover to a strict pull up outside of the noobie area.
Everyone reference gymnastics here. Do the gymnasts gain their BASE of strength from Kipping pull-ups? No. They gain then from volumes of strict pull-ups. Which carryover to their strict muscle ups.
Ask any collegiate gymnast what built their bodies, 100 of kipping or stricy pull-ups.
new day, same old arguments
Big Congrats in your accomplishments- CWO2 Jennifer McClintock, Camp Bastion, Afghanistan!!!
1) DH. "Designated Husband." I accompanied Mrs. bingo to Athleta last night for a retail bl00dbath. As I sat in the "husband chair" in the fitting room I offered "assistance" to all of the women shopping without male accompaniment.
Imagine the value of having someone who will honestly answer "do these leggings make my bum look fat?" without fear of the consequences.
2) Microcategorization. The new advertising field of ever more exacting and minutely defining a marketing target. The more that is known about you (age, gender, address, income, subscriptions, job, size, etc) the less varied are the ads directed to you.
My question, for the marketing but also for anyone in their perusal of available new information, how can you grow, how can you become whatever it is that constitutes the next best version of you if all you ever see is stuff that represents who and what you are now?
3) Dreamcatcher. I have been having two sets of recurring dreams, or at least dreams with two recurring themes. Do you get these? Is the dream always the same (not me) or just the theme (definitely me)? Do you try to figure out why they keep happening, and why those dreams or those themes?
One of mine is probably pretty easy, the theme of impending loss. My kids are getting older, becoming young adults, and beginning to start their post-college lives. Standard fare, and easy to see how I would find this both wonderful and sad because I am blessed to have very nice friendships growing with my kids. I am also soon to confront the loss of a parent, and this is quite sad, as inevitable as it might be.
Nope, it's the other dream theme that's bugging me. This one finds me with unfinished business, or a task that I just cannot start or complete. It often takes place in a school setting, a test I haven't studied for, or did not know was scheduled, a project due in hours that will take weeks to complete. Again and again, night after night.
Something's up in that ol' subconscious, eh? Does this happen to you? My dreamcatcher isn't up to the task of late.
4) Peer Pressure. Why is it that some folks, particularly younger people, succumb to peer pressure while others somehow find the will to resist? Why, for example, does one kid accept the offered illegal substance while another says 'no thanks'? What is it that compels the group to pile on, but one outlier says 'enough'?
Millions of words have been spilled on this topic of course, and I'm certainly not qualified to add to the psych canon, but I've noticed a couple of things in CrossFit Kids groups that remind me of how a certain guy I knew walked away from an entire peer group, twice, rather than cave to pressure.
It's easy and simple, hard and complex all at once. It has to do with success and succeeding, and getting 'caught' in the act of that success. Kids who regularly and routinely succeed at difficult tasks of any kind start to have a stronger belief in themselves that transfers to other stuff. Kids who are held to standards that they must self-police tend to develop a stronger sense that they can make an ethical or moral call without the need for the external confirmation of the group. You count every rep; you move through a full ROM. You make the call, or if judged you accept the call of the judge. CF Kids does not hold the sole franchise for this, of course. The "First Tee" golf program, school chess programs, lots of other places exist where this type of belief in self gained through achievement and accountability exist.
It's never too late to start this process, of course, because the dangers of peer pressure, groupthink, and the psychology of the mob do not magically disappear when we reach the age of majority. Where do you fall on this continuum? Can you think for yourself in the face of peer pressure? Do you have that inner sense, that mental muscle memory that lets you be confident when you are sure that the group is wrong?
When the time comes are you strong enough to stand alone?
I'll see you next week...
Funny conversion. Before I shifted my focus away from kipping pullups I could do 43 COVP and 28 chest to bar but could only do 4 strict. Doesn't seem like there was any transfer from one to the other. Kipping pullups are more so a skill then a strength movement IMHO. Once I began to train strict pullups my numbers increased as well as my deadlift numbers. I believe kipping has its place in crossfit training but only for metabolic conditioning purposes.
Musings in the filter...
Kudos to the powers-that-be for the extensive PU tutorial on the Community page. Very impressive, very helpful. Otherwise the PU conversation today would be simply Groundhog day.
Now if we could somehow get a similar video collection for education on the "less-than-fully-clothed" pictures conversation...
24 hrs as Rx'd! Much-needed; I'm just a bit sore!
Made up Thursday's FGB this morning.
244, with 15# wall ball, and power cleans instead of sdlhp.
I have incorporated a strict pull-up ladder in my warm up and believe it has helped both my overall pull-up "strength", but also my ability to kip more efficiently.
#20 "12 dead hang push ups is more impressive than 30-40 kipping (traditional kip) or even 50 + butterfly (competition pull-ups)."
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Only 4 strict? Really? That's so far outside the realm of the typical CF experience as to sound, I dunno, wrong. The vast majority of CrossFitters I've known and seen these last 7 years have experienced the exact opposite, that more Kipping PU result in more Deadhang PU, but not the opposite. That was certainly my experience.
OHS/PP/SDHP at 75; Thrusters w/30 lb. DB's
Classic CF chipper, whoop!!
good job Marine Corps, it's about time.
Erm, does that comment on her T-shirt mean the same in the US as it does in the UK?
I went to the local global gym today, just as a rest day from crossfit. Good to see people there, at least they are trying to improve their health vs sitting on the couch.
The usual sightings of partial pull ups, no depth squats, and isolation training. People on cell phones taking up equipment and also reading papers. What really upset me was they installed large screen tv's in the weight area. Like moths to a light half the people in the weight area were staring at the tv's versus working out. What manager thought that was a good idea? give people yet another reason to make an effort
anyway will be good to be back to my crossfit box monday. thank you crossfit, i appreciate you more everyday
Iam off schedule for a rest day. Anyone want to try LINDA.
Yes 4 at a body weight of 185. This was not long after I competed in the affiliate cup at the games in 2010.
CWO2 McClintock is an officer and a female-two exceptionally hard fields in which to earn respect in the Marines. Whatever cache she earned with her pull ups she kicked away with a juvenile shirt that is absolutely inappropriate to wear in front of her Marines.
will crossfit hq please post a picture of a naked pregnant woman doing a wod while holding a gun? i can already hear the pin heads exploding...
Funny. She would have to be doing a Kipping pullup to make it complete
#39...you are correct sir. Foolish and asking for trouble.
"The vast majority of CrossFitters I've known and seen these last 7 years have experienced the exact opposite, that more Kipping PU result in more Deadhang PU, but not the opposite. That was certainly my experience."
If these people are male, were the reconditioned? aka began with NO STRICT PULL UPS?
Both with and without strict PU. Those w/ PU had varying numbers prior to doing primarily kipping. Data dates back to earliest days at the original CF Santa Cruz.
This pic, associated with a USMC CWO2, is unprofessional, and NOT in line with the good order and discipline that is expected of Marine Officers. While this CWO's physical triumph is a celebratory event, her judgment on submitting this pic is questionable.
Glad I got so many responses to my post. Most of the responses support the point I was trying to make. Kipping pull-ups are not pull-ups. So, when Crossfit puts up these WODs involving pull-ups, they should be calling them kip-ups if they want to allow butterfly kips and other non-strict-pull-up movements. If they call for PULL-UPs, then doing strict pull-ups is the exercise, with no kipping. Just like the distinction between WODs that call for overhead press vs. push press vs. jerk.
As for those who think it's still the same weight being moved...if that was true then any person could do the same number of pull-ups strict or kipping. Kipping does not magically make your biceps and lats stronger, allowing one to do more reps. One can do more because the kipping motion reduces the amount of weight one needs to move vertically as in a strict pull-up. Kipping moves the weight in your hips, legs, etc away from the vertical plane, thus less weight having to be pulled UP.
Duly noted on the term "cheating." You are correct. It's not so much cheating as it is scaling.
Encouraged to read about the gymnastic movement argued too. I was a gymnast in my youth and coached gymnastics for a time while I was in college. Nowhere was it seen from the recreational gymnast to the Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs (where I was 2x invited when I was a kid), anyone doing or coaching others to do a kipping pull-up. Forget about kipping a muscle-up or that silly frog-leg kick thing in a HSPU. One is robbing themselves of the usefulness of doing those exercises by kipping or kicking.
As for met-con, go to your kip all you like, but you can't say you're doing pull-ups. Fran is Fran with strict pull-ups, or else it's Butterfly Fran or Kipping Fran.
Does 12 steps mean each or total? thanks for the feedback!
Major Shane finally hit it on the head! I could careless about her pull-ups! Its a shame that she would where that shirt 1. out in public 2. That she is supposed to set the example for other females to follow! wear that shirt in your gym fine! on the street fine! in front of Marines NO! But with todays PC and lack of real hard leadership this will be a talk with not formal counceling.
Oy. Glad we're puttingpics like that out there. Military personnel, please don't send pics like this out where you don't have control of them. We have a duty to maintain a professional demeanor.
Your theory is completely wrong. Both parts of it. Hence, why it's your, "theory."
If kipping pullups don't help your strict pullups, then why can I still do 15 strict pullups when I've done pretty much nothing but kipping for 2 years?
If 9 dead hang pullups was my max 2 years ago, how did I increase that to 15 following the WOD?
At the rate you're going to may as well tell people squatting below 90 is bad for them, because it seems you enjoy spouting off arm-chair fitness elitism.
Request you pull this pic. If the CWO has not requested the pic to be pulled, she should. This is an unprofessional choice, you can do better.
Most men cannot do 15 strict, not bad.
With knowing nothing about you but your post, I would assume the following: You improved from 9-15 because A: 9 is not an advanced number, you still had room to improve. B: Being a Xfitter you probably went to the gym 4+ times a week and ate "cleaner " than before.
Also I prefer to Back Squat 2 X week slightly below parallel. And no I don't prefer spouting off. I made an argument, bingo provided info that did not jive with mine, I said nothing.
Are you going for 20 strict, I do not think I could get ther myself
Congrats Jen!! Keep up the good work. I remember when you first started Crossfit. Look at you now. Btw, Love the shirt!!
That's great that you can do kipping pull ups ma'am. However your choice of PT gear leaves something to be desired.
Congrats Ma'am. Your level of physical fitness is inspirational. I honestly love the shirt and find it humourous; however, I do think that something like that should almost only be worn at home or rather in front of those who are mature enough to appreciate the actual meaning of the statement versus what they conjure in their head of what they wish you were implying. Regardless, keep on keepin' on Ma'am. I salute your fitness excellence.
Every time I come back to the main site after a hiatus to see what's new it seems like the same conversations going on in the message board. Strict vs. Kipping pullups. Humorless people vs. snatch jokes. I've been doing CF for a few years now and I'll spill the deep dark secret. Will kipping pullups alone make you better at strict dead hang pullups? The answer is... Kipping pullups may or may not make you better at strict pullups, but CrossFit will. I know because I went from about 8 dead hang pullups when I started to 30 in about 2 years. If you want to complain about the pullup standard CrossFit has do it on the bodybuilding forum, not the CrossFit site - we don't care what YOU think of our workout. We don't need approval from the internet hater horde, because people that do CrossFit know it works. You know what I did when I lost interest in _____________ ? I stopped participating because I no longer had anything positive to contribute to the conversation. If you believe there is a better way - follow it. If you have research and hard data to back it up and you want to share - share it. Data and the search for a better way to achieve fitness is how we arrived at CrossFit in the first place. But the argument against kipping is stale and weak. If we continue to have this conversation I will insist on equally ridiculous fodder such as the jerk being a "cheater press" and the clean being a "snaking reverse curl".
Secondly, isn't the snatch referenced on this woman's shirt referring to the olympic lift we train? Clearly a woman that is in shape, competitive, and has a sense of humor. These are all usually listed as good leadership characteristics. Seem's like the rest of you have dirty minds... I'm dismayed to learn that other "leadership" personnel seem to be offended by words on a workout shirt. Thicken up your skin there commissioned officers, people are depending on your own leadership as well.
Nice representation of core values by a Warrant Officer. I expect better. I'm sure her supervisor does also. Sorry that this detracts from all other aspects. Get the honor and prestige of serving at the price of adhering to a higher standard. Carry that responsibility with pride. Wear that shirt if you like but don't associate your profession with it.
Good job USMC. Would be nice to see the Army take a hint. If you're going to put women in the Infantry and send them to Ranger school then it's damn well time they're held to the same standard as men.
If I had a conversation, as a male enlisted Marine, and used the word "snatch" in a manner which implied the slang definition, I would be charged under Article 134 of the uniform code of military justice. I would be unable to reenlist with a nonjudicial punishment on my record under current contract, and my career in the military would be over. And rightfully so, because the sexist climate that has made a difficult path for women in the military has only in recent years been eradicated. To have this woman post a picture of herself on the most popular fitness website of our generation wearing a shirt referring to her genitals (if you say she isn't, you are daft), reduces the hardwork of so many others on her behalf to nothing. To say this is a lapse in judgement would be to say that I simply forgot my sidearm was condition one when I pointed it at you, I won't let it happen again! She is a disgrace to her fellow service women.
OK, so just something for everyone to think about:
My mother, who is 39 years old, has had five children (Me, the oldest, my three sisters, and my brother). She's not by any means in perfect shape. She's not ripped, she doesn't have a 300# deadlift. However she does exercise: some running, spin classes, a little powerlifting, body weight stuff (push ups, sit ups, etc.), and occasionally she'll do a CrossFit WOD with me (heavilly scaled). But five months ago, she decided that she wanted to do pull ups. So, starting with a band, and doing one or two sets three or so times a week, she has worked herself up to 8 deadhang pull ups (full ROM) in a row.