March 3, 2011
Forget the curve ball, Ricky. Give him the heater!
110302 as Rx'ed
harder than I thought
difficult not to do power snatches
The McCarthy article is shameful bigotry. I hope no one at Crossfit HQ actually agrees with it.
Take a look at Turkey and Indonesia to see Islamic democracy in action.
Oops- I guess I should include the time....duh!
Great article by Andrew C. McCarthy
Death to Apostates: Not a Perversion of Islam, but Islam
On NRO Friday, Paul Marshall lamented the Obama administration’s fecklessness, in particular the president’s appalling silence in the face of the death sentence Said Musa may suffer for the crime of converting to Christianity. This is in Afghanistan...
Reebok should make a bid for Inov8.... Mark Cuban made me say that. CrossFit Nation!!!!!!!! SOLID PIC
I wonder what she was thinking at this moment...Great work Lauren!!! You inspire us all! ...Strength is Beautiful.
National Review makes a lot of sense if you don't think about it.
I used to think the Review was conservative satire similar to The Colbert Report
Lauren Plumey wears workout gear better than anyone.
FABULOUS photo Lauren!
#2~perhaps you prefer your ladies "skinny fat". However, "strong is the new skinny".
Latham, find me an Islamic nation that goes to great lengths to provide aid and assistance to the government of a western nation. Then find me a western nation where people are sentenced to death for converting to Islam.
You can call it shameful bigotry if you want, but I see it as the shameful truth.
Muslims living in western countries enjoy all the freedoms and the benefits that our Judeo-Christian heritage has bestowed upon us. Is it too much to ask them to show some respect for their fellow human beings and speak out against these evil injustices in Islamic countries?
Oh my Heavens! What a wonderful picture. What a beautiful woman.
Mrs. Bingo is not a Crossfitter. She rides horses. There aren't enough hours in the day. And yet she is beautiful. Stunningly beautiful in her own way.
We see Crossfit women here on CF.com in their WOD gear, and we are privileged to see what lies beneath the garb of daily living. How wonderful. Powerful. Strong. Beautiful.
There will be posts today which will disagree with me. They will say silly things like #2. They will be so, SO wrong. For you see, I have also seen many of these women in civilian clothes, the clothes that we wear outside the box. Oh man. Beauty that transcends, all the more so because we as Crossfitters know what lurks below, within.
I have yet to really meet Lauren, but it will be a happy day indeed if I am privileged to do so. Cheers to you, Lauren. Cheers for your strength, so proudly displayed above. Cheers for your spirit, your courage to enter that dark place where the secret of Crossfit lies.
Cheers, Lauren, for your beauty.
Hopefully #2 was just disappointed to see that big ol' rock on her left ring finger.
GREAT PICTURE!!!!! Pure ninja LP
Interesting that the "backfilling" comment "First make a workout for the navy seals, then all the "fat F--'s" and "half-stupids" will follow" segues right into "First make a workout for men and women will follow." I mean I guess it's an astute business policy--girls will play with G.I. Joes but boys won't play with Barbies--but still stings a little.
Man, you sure can't win as a female Crossfitter around here, can you? If you look like Megan Fox, the site is showing too much T&A. If you've been DOING WORK and have the body to show for it, 'men' on the site say "ew" and tear you down.
I thought Crossfit was better than this. So much for community.
McCarthy's got it right. I spent several months there as a teacher. On my way home from church (which we had to continually change the location of) we were accosted by men trying to trick us into sharing our faith so we could be kicked out of the country. In America I wouldn't think twice about talking with somebody about Christ, but there, I knew it could get me expelled or worse. I know many Christians there who are constantly under threat of death.
We won't win with military force. The only force that will change Afghan culture (and ours) for the better is the gospel of Jesus Christ.
"The only force that will change Afghan culture (and ours) for the better is the gospel of Jesus Christ."
THIS is the problem with religion in general.
If you so choose, allow it to better your life. But DO NOT push it on other people.
How is that any better than punishing someone for having the "wrong" faith?
Crossfit women are beautiful!
Well, that article was the intellectual equivalent to cable crossovers.
Anon: Don't be discouraged, some guys intimidate easily. Do your thing :)
Is it with irony or ignorance that Coach calls it "matriarchy" when what he's describing - that women will tolerate & aspire to what is is deemed masculine while men will not do the reverse - is the result of good old patriarchy?
"...that dark place where the secret of Crossfit lies."
Strong and Beautiful...So Proud to be a CrossFit Female!!
Coach Glassman, as always is very in touch with whats going on in affiliates everywhere, which is refreshing considering how full his plate is. It bears repeating that the fittest have there place at the table, but what really makes this (Crossfit)work is average Joe and Jane. Thanks Coach! I really enjoy your videos.
"The only force that will change Afghan culture (and ours) for the better is the gospel of Jesus Christ."
Yeah! Invade, kill leaders, convert to OUR religion!
Seriously though, you want a positive force? You need a SECULAR government. A separation of church and state, where one religion is NOT held over any other. Any time any religion has had that power, it has been abused.
I'm new to Crossfit. I like a lot of the articles, and I'm so stoked about the training system and the general lifestyle. It's amazing to me that a post that would on the one hand have such a brilliant, devastating piece of writing as Ursula K. Le Guin's story would have on the other hand such an obnoxious piece of neoconservative nonsense as McCarthy.
I agree with comment #26. Stating that only the Gospel will change things for the better is just as intolerant and stubborn as the negative aspects of Islam. Why Christianity? Why not Buddhism or paganism or any number of other faiths?
The sooner we all, as a species, put the silliness of artificial divisions such as religion behind us, the better.
From today\'s article...
\"...we have insisted — against history, law, language, and logic — that Islamic culture is perfectly compatible with and hospitable to Western-style democracy. It is not, it never has been, and it never will be.\"
Hey! I just realized something. I know several practicing Muslims that believe in Western-style democracy. Oh, well. So much for that.
You are smokin hot and look amazing here as usual!
That trip to Aus was one of my most memorable and favorire! Thanks to Matt and Danny!
You are a badass amongst badasses.
GO Miranda! glad that her video was up on my birthday! also that its a rest day on my birthday! besides my 23 BURPEES!!!miranda did my level 1 cert and it rocked!
LOL! First thing I did when looking at today's pic, like many others with gorgeous athletic women...was look at the ring finger.
(insert sad face here)
Let all those who wish to let their beliefs belong to only themselves lovingly thrive in an open forum of ideas. Let everyone else parish by my sword.
I recently had not so good experience with Inov8's and rope climbs... I would recommend that you use a different shoe, or use caution when using your feet as a friction device!
A hundred bucks down the drain!
Absolutely beautiful, Lauren!!
#33 - Diabolical - you better go back and read some of Bingo's previous posts. That man has more class, common sense, knowledge, and decency than most of our lot put together. He goes out of his way to help new CF'ers on a regular basis and should therefore be highly regarded, if for no other reason. You on the other hand, chose to tear someone down for complimenting another...
The argument is that Islam is incompatible with Western style democracy. What about the millions of Muslims living in India, the United States, and Europe? If we follow his argument, then we'd have to assume that Muslims cannot follow their faith and mix into a democratic society. Perhaps there are some other issues at work in Afghanistan, other than Islam, preventing democratic institutions from taking hold.
WoW, great pic. All that and not a broken nail. You go girl!!!
McCarthy makes some interesting points, but I have always thought that the Japanese culture-in which they believed their emperor was a God-was a bit more extreme than Islam.
Turkey and Indonesia are currently 'stable', but I Turkey has already began to swing towards a much more 'Islam over Democracy' since 2002. Don't trust 'em. We will fight them in the future.
The problem is that we're lead by folks that don't want to win, have no idea was winning looks like, feels like, or even smells like. I'd vote for a small Crossfit gym owner into office in a second. You know they won't quit, and they want to win.
This crap in the Mideast SCREAMS for more oil production, but we'd rather sit by and think about Global Warming. We are so doomed. The Boomers need to step aside, find a driving newspaper route, and fade into oblivion.
Lauren, you sexy mama!!!! Nice work!! It's almost time to "FLIP THAT SWITCH" girl...
Ooooh, Omelas. I first heard about this book when Bill Whittle mentioned it on PJTV's Trifecta. I found an online copy of it and read it back then, and it's spot-on in detailing what is wrong with society today.
People all over talk about "the people". Labor unions and liberals especially, but even everyday conservatives get lulled into thinking that what's best for "the people" is what's best, period.
Chris Brady once said something to the effect of "If you focus on 'the people' all the time, sooner or later, 'the person' doesn't matter anymore". It's exactly true. If "all" it took was the murder of one innocent person, and you could cure cancer, would you do it? I sure hope not, it's not your life to give, even that one. But suppose you did think that was ok, would it still be ok if it "only" required 10 people to be murdered? What about 100? 1000? Where do you draw the line?
The point is, it's not society's position to decide who gets to live and die, or who gets to suffer or prosper. If it's not ok to murder 10,000 innocent people, it's not ok to murder one. Similarly, if it's not ok to force one person suffer a lot for the "benefit" of everyone else, it's not ok to force one person to suffer a little for the "benefit" of everyone else, unless that person willingly chooses to suffer on their behalf. Only one person has ever truly done that in all of history, and his suffering was unimaginable. Then again, the alternative for us was, and is, nearly as frightening.
What the hell are #2,19&20 talking about. Lauren is seriously fine. She does seem a bit more muscular than the last few pictures of her that I've seen but it might just be a matter of the angle the pic was taken. Or, as anyone who's spent time climbing can tell you, you end up with a serious " pump". The long and the short of it is all 3 of these guys probably have buggy whip arms and chicken legs and are painfully insecure. My advice is " shut your mouths and work out"
Re #20 J:
J, explain to me how well secular Western Europe is doing at resisting the spread of Fundamentalist Islam?
Do you know why? Because if you don't have a reference point to say "What the Fundamentalists in Islam are teaching is wrong", then on what basis can you claim they're wrong? Just because Western Civ thinks it's wrong to murder people for leaving a belief system, does that mean it's wrong? Why? What if another society came along and sacrificed children in a glowing hot bronze statue, and they've done so for a thousand years? On what basis would you say it's wrong?
Those who rely on secularism are ignoring the most basic question, "Who says?" If there is no fixed reference point, then you may as well navigate your ship using the light on top of your own mast, instead of the stars. You'll end up the same place, lost.
"The argument is that Islam is incompatible with Western style democracy. What about the millions of Muslims living in India, the United States, and Europe? If we follow his argument, then we'd have to assume that Muslims cannot follow their faith and mix into a democratic society. Perhaps there are some other issues at work in Afghanistan, other than Islam, preventing democratic institutions from taking hold."
Very well stated.
This article completely ignores the cultural and historical framewrok in which the laws of the aforementioned societies have evolved. It also blatantly ignores how the communities view and interperet the script.
McCarthy naively portrays the Muslim community as monolithic, and it most certainly is not. Sharia law is a byproduct of human exegesis in order to purport the agenda of a very select few over fifteen hundred centuries.
He must have been asleep since the democratic uprisings in the Middle East began. The toppling of the Ben Ali's and Mubarak's regime was unpredicatable. It was secular. it was not driven by fundamentalist ideology. It was deisre for economic and democratic equality, the same that has allowed McCarthy to write such a blatantly bigoted article.
I've gotten to meet LP at some of the CFNE throwdowns over the years and without a doubt she is an absolute fire breather, wife to Dave Plumey (sorry fellas), and an inspirational teacher both in the classroom and in the box. She certainly has the fitness and appearance of an elite crossfitter but her greatest gifts transcend the visual lens. Shine on Laura and Shoreline CF!
Btw, Laura... how much did that plyo-box from Beast of the East fetch on eBay? ;-) Warrior!! Good luck @ the 2011 CF Games.
Too many exclamations in my LP post... caught in the filter... oh well. Props LP! Great pic.
Love the pictures and the articles. Keep it up, don't listen to all the whiners.
beautiful face. the rest looks like a man. just take a look at dem pec's, thighs & legs. she is probably amenorrheic
There are quite a few muslims doing crossfit, it would be interesting to hear form them.
I know more than a few living in democratic societies and contributing invaluably to civilization.
There are many such muslims who find Sharia law to be unjust and unfit. I am sure more than one of them will find McCarthy's article offensive for its bigotry and generalizations.
The research and understanding of what Afghanistan was and thought about what it might become, should have been done BEFORE the US invasion. Afghanistan has always been a fractured, fragmented, part-tribal society. It is still very primitive by Western standards. The blood lust that followed 9/11 was not a proper justification for flying half way round the world and invading it.
It might suit the NR's sensibilities now to argue for withdrawal. I wonder, did they argue against invasion?
We could find instances of extreme quotations about stoning to death in our own Bible. And we could find instances of extreme application of those rules. We only have go jump back a heart-beat in our own history to the burning of alleged witches by Christians. McCarthy is deliberately simplistic in his analysis. There is no complexity or correct analysis of where Afghanistan is coming from, what it has suffered and where it might go. Poor.
If you love Lauren Plumey's rope climbing, you should see her box, seriously. Traveled all over the country and shoreline Crossfit which she runs with her husband DP and Kelly Walsh (who is also a stone cold CrossFit Fox with pictures on their site to prove it) are exactly what Coach Glassman is talking about. I was an old fatty. I'm still old, but on the way, just like coach says. LP you Rock!
Comment #38 - Posted by: Nate
QuoteLOL! First thing I did when looking at today's pic, like many others with gorgeous athletic women...was look at the ring finger.
(insert sad face here)
Me too, haha, but I still managed to end my day happy.
Thanks for the NRO article. So many people have made decisions about Islam without every having read any portion of the Koran. It is usually quite an eye opener once they do.
Why are topics like Islam, global warming, and firearms training on a fitness website? That's what I'd like to know. All the haters on today's pic should know that only weak men can't appreciate a strong woman.
Will O. (#58) -- I don't pretend to speak for Crossfit, but I've always assumed the idea was that your intellectual "training", like your physical training, should be varied, demanding and constantly pushing you into new areas. Again, I might be the only one who feels this way, but to me the Crossfit philosophy can carry over into your life generally and isn't just limited to the time you spend in the gym. I think that's the idea behind the articles, links to fiction and music, etc.
Ignorance and hate. Those are the two words that come to mind when I read articles like the one posted.
It is a shame that Crossfit has decided to throw in with the bigotry banded about by the neocons.
#19 - Very Well Said!!!
What a strong, beautiful woman....words fail me!!!
I show these pics (most anyways, the rest I just enjoy) to my 8 year old daughter. She is well on her way to being strong and beautiful and likes examples of strong and beautiful role models.)
#57, Jo, read the Old Testament through once, carefully, and then tell me whether it's an "eye opener" regarding Christianity.
The Koran doesn't dictate Islamic behavior, anymore than the Bible dictates Christian behavior.
Great picture LP! We're all proud of you. Keep doin' work son!
great pic of lauren....strong is sexy, fit is sexy
as for the article; i don't have a phd in theology or such, so I am by no means an expert, but that being said i can say the following.
don't think i have ever heard of any modern western culture charging a person of a crime for having a particular faith, nor sentencing him to death for it.
been a while since i heard anyone screaming budda is great as they ran up to a bus and starting shooting everyone in it.
pretty uncommon to read about someone walking into a crowded city market and screaming "praise jesus" right before they detonate a bomb strapped to their body.
similarly my limited exposure to the qu'ran has left me a bit disturbed, but then again playing devil's advocate to myself, there is a fair bit of the old testament that leaves me shaking my head as well.
guess that is why they call both Faiths rather than facts.......
#60 runpappyrun. Let's hope that, unlike most 6 years olds today, she isn't playing loads of xbox and eating loads of sugar preparing herself for a future as an overweight diabetic that can't climb a rope.
Very few people over the age of 20 can climb more than one hand up a rope. That fact that this woman can AND that she is beautiful is worth remarking on.
#57 - Latham, to read only the Old Testament and judge Christianity is, simply put, idiotic.
Read both Koran and Bible from cover to cover, then maybe we can have an informed discussion on this subject.
Beautiful picture... Her body is amazing, she is a beautiful woman, and if you look closley, she s has her nails done, and is wearing her wedding ring. The statement is - I am an athlete, and a beautiful Lady/Woman, all in one. It should be a lesson to all women.
#11 Gary - what part of Judeo-Christian heritage includes an understanding of an individual with innate and unalienable freedoms and holds these to be sacrosanct? Large swaths of humanity had 1500 years of various "Christian" nations that believed in the divine right of kings - or whatever the flavor of the day was that concentrated as much power in as few hands as possible in an attempt to extort, rape, and rob as large a population as possible.
Until commercial interests became powerful enough to replace mercantilism and government run psuedo-industries as an organic system of common/individual improvement - or what you could call "The Enlightenment - and men like Hume, Mill, and Smith - that these Judeo-Christian ethics you allude to got "found".
#19 Josiah - you're welcome to try, don't make me (a US Marine) do your job for you. I just checked Kayak.com, there's one way flights from NYC to Kabul for $950. I'll chip in $100. Good luck.
#48 Matt - sounds good to me. I'll navigate any way I choose, you do the same. "We are born rational as we are born free." -John Stuart Mill
no such things as rest days
Straight up F-ing Ninja!! Besides the fact that she is a beautiful women. She and her husband are AMAZING and INSPIRING coaches!!
Lauren developed her beautiful body doing Crossfit! Shame on those who, on one hand cast judgement on her look (whose business is it anyway?), while on the other hand applauding and promoting Crossfit for the benefit it provides to all who participate. You don't get the functional fitness without the strength and power. Lauren is Crossfit epitomized...beautiful, strong, powerful and capable. I am greatly impressed!
The stories about our servicemen and women pushing themselves to the limit (in every sense) are inspiring to anyone, and fit with the philosophy of Crossfit. In that sense McCarthy's article, and anything that's a debatable political point sticks out like a sore thumb.
Islam is no more dangerous to humanity than Christianity or any other organized religion. Our soldiers going into war with bibles and passages on their guns is just the other side of a coin to Islamic warriors with guns & Korans.
The only way to achieve true freedom in this world is to cast off the shackles of religion entirely.
Embrace reason, say no to religion, become an atheist. Elevate yourself.
Over the several years I've been following this site, there have been many Crossfit women I've found to have a striking and admirable combination of athleticism and feminine beauty. Lauren is definitely in that group. Without a doubt one of the loveliest women in the world of Crossfit.
Religion and politics? That article about Islam must be satire; the only context under which it would have been appropriate to post such a thing.
Link in above comment work/family safe.
Great pic and awesome strength, but incorrect technique. She should be hooking her left heel over the rope instead of hooking her foot behind it. Watch here:
It's a safety issue. At SE regionals 2 years ago, several women fell off the rope because of poor technique. No serious injuries but some burned hands and sprained ankles. If you're going to push to muscle failure, you need to know what to do when that failure comes at the top of a 20 foot rope.
Sorry, link above is WFS.
Being a female CrossFitter I think all the negativity is just intimidation of women like LP. When people make her body out to be something negative I feel as if these people disagree with women doing CrossFit since the results of CrossFit are clearly exemplified in LP!
Keep on keeping on!
I love the comments by "intellectual" atheists touting their cerebral superiority because they have shaken off the bands of religion. A couple of questions for you: If there is no God, what makes things right or wrong? How do you know? Please, don't come at me with the argument that whatever is best for society is right either. What makes killing another person wrong? Should we punish animals that kill other animals by putting them to death or imprisoning them? What makes humans any different than other animals? I find it funny that most "atheists" were raised with exposure to some type of religion and with religion came different rules or guidelines for living. Some are more stringent than others, but 9 times out of 10 the "intellectual" atheists enjoy doing things that are proscribed from their particular religious background. It is easier to change your beliefs than your behavior. Atheism is a crutch for weak-minded individuals who have replaced religious observance with careless abandon into the paths of least resistance.
I know this will be a huge surprise after my above rant, but I liked the McCarthy article. For those that didn't and are calling it bigotry, let me ask you this: how many of the "westernized" Muslims living in the U.S. or in Western Countries abroad openly condemned the morality of the 9/11 attacks? Did you ever hear of any Islamic leaders anywhere in the World that condemned the attacks as morally wrong? I didn't. I saw a very select few who went so far as to say it was tragic or sad or some other nonsense that made them seem sympathetic without actually taking a stand against them. I am sure there are many individuals who happen to Muslims that are good people, but to me they are good people in spite of their religious affiliation and not because of it.
Reebok may be knocking on LP's door very soon if not already!
love the workouts, dislike the political slant. Next time, how about somrthing on spring training?
Christianity does not force people to become converts or persecute those who are not Christians, at least not true Christianity. When someone suggests that the Muslims need the Gospel, they are not making a statement such as "Muslims MUST become Christians." Becoming a Christian is not something that can be forced on someone, and it is not something that a true Christian ever forces on someone. I speak from personal experience, as a youth pastor, and a participant on 8 short term missionary teams over the past five years. Rather, the true gospel is given to people out of love for them, with the hope that they will accept it, but never with a demand that they must accept it. True Christianity is not dangerous to any society in any way. What is dangerous (and very tragic) is when extremist Christian groups (like the Crusaders, the Salem witch trial people, etc.) take just a portion of the Bible out of context for their own purposes and use it for their own agenda. To understand true Christianity, you must read the entire Bible from cover to cover in its own context (which I have done), for what it is, and not insert anything between the lines.
The desire true Christians have for seeing others become Christians has nothing to do with hate, bigotry, or intolerance. It is out of love for the people that they are sharing Christianity with, because we see the Gospel as the most precious gift there is, and we want to give it away to everyone. It would be like if you had the ability to give everyone you know $1,000,000, while still having everything that you would ever need for yourself. Wouldn't you want to give it away too?
I am a devout Christian, and I love all Muslim people, as well as all people from other religions. I desire to share the Gospel with all of them, not because I hate them or do not appreciate them for who they are, but because I believe the gospel is a wonderful gift, and I want to share it with everyone. I offer it to them, hoping they will accept it, but I never force it upon them.
Active rest day
Woke up feeling great so I did a moderate intensity jump rope/burpee work out in the park.
Then, I completed 5 separate burpees for day 5 of my 100 day burpee challenge.
# 39 states: "Let all those who wish to let their beliefs belong to only themselves lovingly thrive in an open forum of ideas. Let everyone else parish by my sword."
Voltaire, who was later quoted by Thomas Paine leading up to the American Revolution, said "I strongly disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
If we are to hold up tolerance such an important ethic, how can we not then be tolerant of those who believe their ideas, or the ideas of those who they follow (ex. Jesus Christ), are exclusively true? If we cannot tolerate their ideas, are we then tolerant at all? If we do not, have we not just crowned tolerance as an exclusively true belief? Can we not say with Voltaire that we will defend to our own death their right to say their exclusive beliefs? Jesus gives the best template for tolerance when he says, "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you". He creates a culture in which tolerance is truly possible.
We would be foolish to abandon exclusive truth claims. Will we now persecute someone who will accept no other explanation of why objects fall than the law of gravity? Our culture is worse for robbing ourselves of thoughtful discourse regarding exclusive ideas. Instead we say that people with exclusive ideas are "pushing their beliefs onto others" by simply stating them in an "open forum" or in the "marketplace of ideas".
Both Voltaire and Jesus (who disagreed somewhat ideologically) call for self sacrifice, not violent threats such as "Let everyone else perish by my sword."
Michael Malmfeldt: "Atheism is a crutch for weak-minded individuals who have replaced religious observance with careless abandon into the paths of least resistance."
That's exactly how Jesus Christ himself would put it, isn't it?
@ 78, mikes: thanks for providing historical context to McCarthy's shifting viewpoint. Maybe he'd have a different view if a republican were in the white house.
I agree with McCarthy that the Afghanistan occupation should end, but not because the US failed to produce a tolerant, Islamic democracy.
We should leave because the our nation's dire economic health cannot afford foolish boondoggles. Economic law, not sharia law, will usher America's exit from Afghanistan.
First, the pic looks great. There is nothing sexier than a woman in that good of shape.
Second, I thought the article was good. Unlike most people I'm not going to try to pick the thing apart. Instead I'd like to offer my own thoughts.
1. Why do we try to rebuild nations and outsource a twisted perversion of our own government when we go to war with a country. All it does is waste our money and make the US a occupation force. War is not pretty. I'd prefer to untie the hands of our troops and allow them to win at all costs, then bring them home. Let the other nation determine how to devise a working government. All the naysayers are thinking well we will just have to go back a few years down the road. I assure you that if we fought a war the way it should be fought with hate and discontent in our hearts, the last thing anyone would want is round two.
2. Unless you have been there, you have no idea what you are dealing with. This country is not technologically advanced. They are 150 years behind the US. There has never been a centralized govt. there. It is essentially like the US when it was just being settled. Little tribes of people that govern themselves. It is not our place to change that. It is something that they as a group of people have to change for themselves. I am astounded that the US govt thinks we can fast forward in another nation what took ours 150 years to get through.
The McCarthy article is a shameful piece of literature written by a man unaware of history or sense. To use the argument that jihad or the condemnation of other religions by Islam is somehow unique to Islam is to forget all of Christian history and legacy (crusades, Charlamaine, The Inquisition, Salem, etc.). Yet Christians somehow managed some sort of a republican democracy. Nation building is a strategy that prevents further insurgency. Unfortunately we do not give it enough resources or study how to make it successful enough to make it work. Ignorantly we don't learn the same lessons.
The pic looks great.
#83: A religious person believes religion is in place via divine guidance and intervention. An atheist believes that religion was created for guidance, control and to keep society under control. Two sides to the same coin. To state that an atheist is weak minded is your opinion, an atheist may say the same about the religious person. Basically both are not agreeing with the other's source for "rules."
Right or wrong IS for the benefit of society, no matter how you slice it. Kill someone today or 600, 1000 or 2000 years ago and there will be a reaction. It has evolved over time but it will still cause a knee jerk reaction that a "group" will deal with in order to preserve their own life and eliminate the risk of it happening to them or someone they care about.
What makes us different than animals? Not much, the basics of the "pack" or "herd" are still there but more complex, more rules, stipulations and complexities.
Its not cerebral superiority that atheists spout, its just a different viewpoint. They look at our current situation from an evolutionary standpoint that came to be over time. Rules and guidelines that get reviewed and refined for the times. Maybe they got their first steps from religious backgrounds and then took the training wheels off and rode on their own. There is nothing wrong with that. Someone that hasn't had any religion in their life, walks out of the jungle into a mission can still have some strong tribal values that are refined by religion as well.
The development of right and wrong is something done over time, not a one time deal that is ever changing with circumstances.
This Lauren girl is smoking hot! I'm gonna facebook her like right now!!!!
I stopped coming on here to post some years ago due to some of the idiocy but I had to post this time because maybe there are some good people on the fence about this issue that just haven't read as much history.
Islam saved us from the dark ages. There is a reason that the tomb of Ferdinand and Isabella is carved in Hebrew, Arabic, and Latin. A 700 year occupation of Southern Spain and a 500 year occupation of Italy show that the cultures can and do get along just fine until the fundamentalists get involved. Andalusia even has a word for Spanish Christians that speak Arabic, Mozarabe.
The end of the golden era in Spain came about because the ruling Muslims foolishly tried to save themselves from the fundamentalist Christians by bringing in North African fundamentalist armies. They were defeated and replaced by the Christians that brought us the Inquisition.
Those who do not understand history are doomed to repeat.
I love the spread of hate and idiocy. It makes me feel so much better about myself.
Latham. You suggested a careful read of the Old Testament. Indeed not only have I read that in various English translations, but most of Genesis in Aramaic, as well as the New Testament in various translations and Koine Greek. And in English only I have read the Vedas, the Book of Mormon, and both the Tibetan and Egyptian Books of the Dead. I was taught not to base my opinions on what I ‘felt’ something said, but what it actually states. All countries/civilizations began in war. However, for those assuming an afterlife the defined method for entry is kindness to strangers. And more importantly saving a life. There is only one belief that guarantees entry into heaven by the death of any non-believer. The Koran of Islam. This is not 1400 years ago. It is now. Today. At mosques everywhere all non-believers are cursed. Vocally and forcefully.
"If there is no God, what makes things right or wrong? How do you know?"
Morality is relativistic, even among religions and their followers. A supreme deity doesn't make things right or wrong, but rather a complex system of societal influences, upbringing, education, etc. Your argument is essentially saying, "Without god, there would be nothing wrong with murdering people!", yet millions of people around the world have no belief in god and aren't out murdering their neighbors. Meanwhile, belief in god murdered thousands on 9/11. Allah == Yahweh == God.
Do you think slavery is wrong? Why? It can't be because of god, because the bible openly advocates slavery, in both the old & new testaments. Do you see my point? Morals are not hard & fast, and are certainly not set by deities.
There is no god people. You all know it deep down. This ridiculous notion there is one is what causes such huge disagreements like above. Morals, kindness, thoughtfulness and love do not to be lead by a god. Religion causes mass hatred. Better off without it.
Wow, guys, there are some great comments here, but also some ignorant ones. There is one comment that really sheds some light, and it is the fact that Islam is the only religion that threatens physical death on anyone who doesn't convert. Yes, the Ku'ran says that anyone who does not convert to Islam is to die.
Christianity simply teaches that conversion will not be forced but accepted on one's own free will. All religions outside of Christianity also teach that works are vital for salvation. True Christianity does not teach that.
I'll never force what I believe on anyone. Not only would that be a false conversion but it is impossible given that we have free will to choose.
If you read any of the Koran, and you talk to someone who is totally dedicated to its teachings, they'll tell you that a peaceful Muslim is a liberal Muslim.
Just like I will look a "Christian" in the eye who says they are a Christian and then will also say there may be other ways to Heaven than Jesus. That person is a liberal Christian.
Fact is, the whole deal in the Middle East is religiously motivated and we will never do any good over there because of that.
I guess all of us will find out one day won't we?
Oh, one other question for everyone to ponder.....
Wouldn't "not" believing in God or some "higher power" need some type of belief in a "higher power" at some point in order to deny the existence of it? I don't know, but that seems pretty logical. And, doesn't absolutely every single belief that we have, including no belief at all, boil down to faith? Just saying.
Atheism is not a set of beliefs.
To say that one is an atheist is a quick way of saying that he or she strives for intellectual honesty, and relies on reason, experience and evidence to lead the best life.
"Blashemy" some of you might say. "How dare you imply we have no reason." Where is it?
There is zero empirical evidence that God exists or that religion makes people better.
And claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
Most atheists I know have plenty of reason. Most of them believe in the eternal existence of electrons, but there is no proof of where those electrons came from. I do base that on the fact that most atheists believe in evolution, which takes a tremendous amount of faith to believe given the fact that evolution would boil down to something coming from nothing, which science has proven false.
There is also "zero empirical evidence" to show that God does not exist and that God does not make people better except for the evidence of personal experience and if most of what believe is derived from some type of personal experience then both of us is 100% right which makes one of us 100% wrong.
There is no empirical evidence that evolution is correct, thus the reason that it is a theory.
Just trying to remain logical. I'm enjoying the "debate."
If "claims without evidence can be dismissed without evidence," there is a ton of things that can be dismissed. Again, everything at some point must come down to faith, period. Even an atheist has faith.
The article is not arguing that all Muslims are incompatible with democracy. The article is arguing that Islamic nations (i.e., nations grounded in Islamic law as opposed to nations with large Muslim populations) cannot be democracies. Muslims are productive members of France and France is a democracy; however, the French government doesn't kill people for converting from Islam.
This particular article is arguing that Islamic states sentence converts from Islam to death because that is what it means to be a state grounded in Islamic law; and therefore such states cannot be democracies If you disagree, then which part do you disagree with? That nations grounded in Islamic law sentence converts from Islam to death, or that nations with such laws can still be democracies?
Sorry preacherman, But you are wrong.
The "theory" in the theory of evolution is grossly misunderstood. It is called a theory simply because not everything is known. It is though a fact that we are an evolved species, coming from one of four humanites, the other three of which are extinct. And there is certainly reason and evidence to suggest that god does not exist. But i digress.
the atheistic community does not say that they know there is no god. And if they do they should not. But in the religious community, generally, they claim an absolute certainty that God is real. A certainty which they do not have.
More and more of the claims made by the bible and the religious are being proven wrong on a daily basis. Yet they still fight it! There is certainly no intellectual integrity amongst the religiously devout. between atheist and the religous, atheist are the only group that are willing to accept new ideas.
If others wish to make statements regarding evolution, I suggest they know more about it.
the video "Matriarchy" was spot on.
Thank you for having a killer sense for staying on brand!
My wife is a marketing executive and would leave CrossFit if you turned it into a "girls night" or "LifeTime TV for Women" type of atmosphere. She hates the color pink and loves to compete with the guys at our box. She is Super Mom and I would not have it any other way!
Thank you Thank you Thank you!!!!
Atheism isnt in the business of faith. You have faith that it is, but you are wrong ;).
Faith is acceptance of ignorance, believing in what isnt and, at times, cant be known.
As for dismissing claims without evidence you are again wrong. Religion is the only area of our lives where we do not evaluate reasons before we choose to accept. All other things the reasons are evaluated before before a decision is made.
That includes science, mathematics, engineering, business, medicine, etc.
What is a theory then? Why is evolution called a theory. I never said that atheism says that they know there is no God. They can't because the evidence isn't there.
My biggest argument here is that everything anyone believes must come down to faith.
I don't know exactly what you believe, Sam, but you don't know exactly what I believe either.
However, logically speaking, all belief boils down to faith.
I guess I'll just have to be "wrong," but again, I am enjoying this little debate.
Sam, we must agree to disagree so that we don't get removed from the CrossFit community huh?
Getting back to why we are here, shoot me an email sometime and we may "debate" a little more. I'll not try to change you so long as you don't try to change me.
CrossFit for life man!
There is 'faith' - a personal belief in doing the right thing. Then there is believing in a make believe story to the extent of killing people in wars and such like.
Everybody has inner strength, belief in themselves, compassion for others and morals if they dig deep enough.
And to question science with a 'well how did electrons get there is just madness' - if that's the argument how did God 'happen'.
Thanks for that post Dave. And I agree but wish to just say one more thing and I'm done till tomorrow's W.O.D.
God didn't happen. That's where we could go round and round with faith, but we all have it and we all must have it in some form to survive.
If one can believe that electrons are eternal, isn't it logical to believe that God is eternal?
I agree with your entire statement Dave except the last one I guess.
But that is what is healthy here. We can debate and not want to kill each other for no reason right?
Oh my! Please not another rest day again! I thought this site was for crossfit , not theological discussions.
first of all Mrs. Plumey is beautiful plain and simple. been a crush of mine for a while now. too bad we're both married, haha. not only does she look super, but she performs super too. LP keep kicking butt out here.
i read the article by McCarthy and i have to disagree with him on one point. let's not end the experiment, i sure didn't forget who took responsibility for 9/11, it was Osama, our mission is to get him, until that mission is accomplished then keep on.
as far as the religious debate and comments here. all i have to say is i have a relationship with Christ. try to argue that. and if your curious you can ask me about it at any time. i'll be more then willing to talk about MY relationship with Christ and how it's affected my life.
Sorry Mike. I'll hush for now, but my rest time is spent on theology.
Sam, one more thing. If claims without evidence should be dismissed without evidence, can we dismiss evolution the same way we can "dismiss" God since there isn't enough evidence to prove some of the claims of evolution as you said?
060412 "Linda" DL 95#/Bench 115#/Clean 65# 25:53
Scaled off 130# BW
DL 185#/Shoulder Press 1/2BW 65#/Clean 95# (Power)
Evolution is not an idea that is without evidence. Again, it is a proven fact that we have a evolved from one of four humanites, the other three being extinct. It is also a fact that about 99.9% of all once living things are now extinct, a fact which doesnt give much credit to and "intelligent designer". Evolution is not a theory without evidence, again. But there is evidence. logical evidence at that. Granted it is not perfect nor are all aspects of it agreed upon within the scientific community.
As for faith, in my understanding it is the idea of hoping for something that isn't know. I guess. While it isn't inherently dangerous, it has been dangerous at times. Personally, I have no room for it in my life. I simply wish to make my decisions based on experience and evidence.
I am enjoying this debate with you as well, sir. There tends to be an idea that people with opposing views can't be friends or even civil to one another. I find this to be wrong. I respect what seems to be your ability to simply want to lead a good life and to not have a desire to further your own agenda.
Crossfit for life sir!
"The argument is that Islam is incompatible with Western style democracy. What about the millions of Muslims living in India, the United States, and Europe? If we follow his argument, then we'd have to assume that Muslims cannot follow their faith and mix into a democratic society. Perhaps there are some other issues at work in Afghanistan, other than Islam, preventing democratic institutions from taking hold."
I think this is a good point. To assume that Islam is preventing Democracy in Afghanistan is a brutally simplistic view. Instead of Islam, any number of cultural or racial arguments could be inserted for African or South American countries. Islam, or religion in general, is an easy escape to an incredible complex problem.
did WOD from 110302 today cause I missed it.
very excited about how my squat snatch is looking! I am finally getting the form down just need to build some strength around it.
Question, don't know if I'll have time to check back and answer again. To Sam and others, where is this evidence for evolution that you speak of? You keep writing about it without providing the actual evidence. There is absolutely no transitional links between what we have called hominids and modern humans. Yes, there is evidence of microevolution within a species, but there is no change from one species to another. Even if you would like to bring up the argument of DNA between chimps and humans sharing 98%, what about humans and a banana sharing 94%(not sure on the numbers, don't have my study beside me). Most scientists will tell you those numbers are not significant differences, so common descent right? Wrong, consider the following sentences "Darwin was a scientific god" or "Darwin was a scientific dog". Two sentences which are almost identical(maybe even 95%), but two totally different messages. Just like genetic code which is far more significant than two sentences.
Also, where is your evidence that God does not exist? Just as I cannot "PROVE" that God does exist. Neither can you "DISPROVE" His existence. I believe simply because, as I have weighed the scientific evidence, I find nothing that convinces me of evolution. I on the other hand believe that scientific evidence points to a universe that has a beginning(relativity, cosmic background radiation, entropy, universe expanding...). And as I have found through experience time and time again in my life, nothing comes into existence without something creating it and that causal agent must be above and outside of the system. That is why I have studied and found that the God of Christianity fits that.
And to those who would say that "Truth is relative". Do you not realize that you have just made a truth claim? What if that truth claim is not true to me?
I'll reiterate what preacherman posted, no hate intended, just debate.
@105 very well said! (Great username too)
Atheism is a belief the same way baldness is a hair color. ;)
Thank you Sam. Faith is defined as firm belief in something for which there is no proof. I have to agree with what justaman says, but he seems pretty smart, way above my little brain.
Good "W.O.D" ing tomorrow.
#123 so what are actually saying then? No proof that either God exists or evolution happened? I will place my bets with where there is at least some evidence (98% perhaps?). Something must have happened, right? And as you say something still is, microevolution. Well microevolution x millions of years = evolution. Maybe humankind was created my God, then dinosaurs ate them all up, then we evolved from apes.
The logical something still points to an intelligence that lies outside the ability of the human brain's ability to conceive. Plus, if, again, spontaneous combustion has been proven false by science, how did life come from nothing? Answer that with evidence. I promise that this time I am stopping. I'll blog my opinions maybe.
#121 "Evolution is not an idea that is without evidence. Again, it is a proven fact that we have a evolved from one of four humanites, the other three being extinct. It is also a fact that about 99.9% of all once living things are now extinct, a fact which doesnt give much credit to and "intelligent designer". Evolution is not a theory without evidence, again. But there is evidence. logical evidence at that. Granted it is not perfect nor are all aspects of it agreed upon within the scientific community."
Sam Could you be more specific on what the other 3 humanities were ? I seen you just saying that, but I didnt see you list what they are. I know where your going with your point, but to give a proper debate , people need to see what other species your talking about, before it can be debated.
Dave @ #126,
First we must define a construct for this discussion. I would say evolution, or even microevolution would refer to species change, and any other responses to environmental stimuli would be adaptation. So a person that lives on the equator and has a darker complexion would have adapted, not evolved.
Also, where does the idea of "millions" of years come from?
Here is a hypothetical question. If society as a whole knows without a doubt (just assume there is no question about this) that it is in the best interest of society (short and long term) to kill the poorest 10 percent of the people in the community, is it okay to kill them? If not, what makes it not okay? If there is no underlying moral code established by someone or some thing, what makes things wrong? We all know that most actions taken result in consequences that are negative for some people but positive for others. There are almost no universally good actions, and because of that, using the whole "best interests of society" argument as your moral compass doesn't really hold water. In the end, you will always be choosing something that benefits some and hurts others. If it truly only matters that you do the thing that overall benefits society the most, than my hypothetical above shouldn't be that distasteful to you, right?
@ whoever rattled off the names of prominent atheists-
I never said atheists were weak in all aspects of their lives. In fact, atheist or not, I could rattle off the names of hundreds of "strong" people throughout the ages that had certain vices or other parts of their lives that would indicate weakness of the mind. Maybe you should look up the word "owned" and /or insult me with a smaller word, with which, you can communicate more effectively (perhaps stick to monosyllabic words). Also, are you really going to try and prove that atheists are not weak-minded by naming people from Hollywood? Really? If I were you, I would leave the arguing to more intelligent atheists.
Oh, and I never claimed to be Jesus Christ or to be speaking on his behalf in my comments.
I enjoy this discussion, and think it is the most important question of our existance: is there a God? Before we get into defining attributes of God, and associating God with any religion, we must first ask the important question: why is there a something, and not a nothing? Our reality has shown us that for there to be a creation, there must be a creator.
For all the science folks out there, this is a tough question. We have learned from science about the laws of physics and one of those laws is the conservation of energy/mass (1st law of thermo). From this we know that energy/mass cannot be created or destroyed, only changed in form. So the big bang violates the law of energy/mass conservation because it describes a moment where energy/mass did suddenly come into existance. We also know from the second law of thermo that natural systems tend toward chaos, or entropy. Darwinian evolution violates this law as well. So either the two laws of thermo are not actually laws, or there is a flaw in the logic of atheistic thinking.
One thing that needs clarification is the idea that all religion is the same. This is the biggest lie since time immemorial, and fails to stand up to any logical argument. For example, Buddhism and Hinduism share the belief in reincarnation, and the thought that the goal of existance is to reach a state of enlightenment. Your soul will continue in this world until you have reached this point, and then you will move onto another world. However, the Bible teaches that humans are fallen, sinful creatures. The Bible teaches you have one life on this earth, and the choice made now will impact your soul for eternity. The Bible teaches there is a real consequence for sins or wrongs done, and there is no other way to salvation than grace through faith in Christ. Now, if Buddhism and Hinduism are right, how can Christianity be right? Or, if Christianity is right, how can Buddhism and Hinduism be right? Both ideas cannot be in conflict and both be right.
There are no facts in science. Science isn't in the business of proving things. As Coach Glassman made abundantly clear when verbally smashing some guy in a recent video. You prove things in Math, in Science you can only have theories and they are only good until disproved. So, please, someone disprove the existence of God. Until then, atheists can have their "theory" and I will have mine.
As for which theory to believe, let me pose another hypothetical. If we send a rocket ship to Neptune and discover that there is a castle there with ornate architecture that is light years ahead of anything we are able to build on Earth, what is the most logical theory. Is it that: (a) said building evolved from a big bang and had no helping/shaping hand or (b) there was some intelligent design in making that building. Even if there are some smaller lesser buildings there that don't really compare to the most ornate, but are impressive in their own right. And there are some even smaller less complex buildings to varying degrees all the way down to rubble. After all of that, is it still more likely that they just appeared there through evolution or that some intelligent being played a part?
Is there any conceivable architectural achievement (modern or futuristic) that rivals the complexity of the human body? And I am just talking structurally. If you add in the likelihood of "life" just happening then you are really looking at some astronomical odds. Isn't science dedicated to the theory that is most likely the right one based on the evidence available?
Sam @ # 121
I think it wrong to imply that theism requires faith, and atheism has science, logic and reason. Atheism is just as much a faith statement as theism, hence the discussion.
Also, any divulging of "logical" evidence (is there such a thing?) is appreciated. Here are my hiccups with naturalism:
1. Something from nothing. Matter/energy came about all by itself.
2. Physical laws. Not only did matter/energy create itself, but the laws of physics were also required to tell the matter/energy how to behave in nature. Who created the laws of nature?
3. Non-life to life. At some point, in a primordial soup, the right concoction of matter and energy was able to make transition from non-life to life. Unbridled energy destroys, not creates. To verify this, stick your finger in a light socket.
4. The double helix (DNA). It is statistically impossible for the creation of DNA on its own.
5. Darwinian evolution. Why is there nothing in the fossil record to support this theory? The fossil record reflects a Gensesis style creation of species. We don't encounter partially evolved species today. We observe species as complete and whole. A dog is a dog, just as a cat is a cat.
6. This discussion. It is impossible for a self-existant being to become aware of its existance, yet we are having the discussion right now.
Do I really need to explain again that atheism isn't about faith? I've made this clear.
And as for being religious it certainly requires faith. How else could someone accept something for which there is no proof.
The ideas expressed by myself and others that share similiar ideas have not been met with sufficient argument. A lot of why this and why that's. Religion certainly can not explain them, but science has explained some and will continue to try to do so all the while remaining intellectually honest. I certainly don't have all the answers and wouldn't claim to. Our intelligence can't fathom the full reaches of this universe.
If someone can Provide worthwhile evidence for the claims made by the religous I would be glad to discuss them. Until that time, it is pointless for me to continue with rational ideas to some who refuse to look at them.
Im not saying that to everyone, so no noe should take that personally.
I'm uncomfortable with a fitness site feeling the need to display this article. It seems to be supporting a certain Neo-christian anti-islam agenda or point of view concerning a religion without any balanced alternative views. Surely this kind of debate should go on elsewhere.
Anyone here who doesn't "believe" in evolution please order a book covering this topic ASAP. There are hundreds that will do the job, but if you're looking for a "best-seller" type, I would recommend "The Greatest Show on Earth" by Richard Dawkins. I believe in freewill as strongly as the next guy, but "believing" evolution isn't really a personal choice. That is nearly akin to saying you don't "believe" in gravity.
Well put, my friend.
If anyone ever attempts to kill another person because they refuse to accept Christianity as their faith, I will be the first to stand up and announce that such an act is completely against Christian teaching. I will loudly declare that such a person could not possibly be a Christian. I will plainly announce that he is a evil person and that the full force of justice should be brought to bear on him.
But when people kill in the name of Islam, as happens quite frequently these days, do we hear any voices from the Muslim community condemning such acts?
I'm still listening...
As others have argued above (and you have conveniently ignored) there are dozens of examples in the bible of behavior (condoned by God) that most civilized people would find repulsive. Slavery, polygamy, and the death penalty for minor offenses immediately come to mind. If God condoned those activities in the bible, what makes you think that they are unacceptable now?
As far as morality without religion, you should take a look at Secular Morality: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_morality
(Link is Work and Family Safe)
A good starting point would be to do nothing the universal doing of which would make it impossible to do. This makes murder, lying, cheating, and stealing all immoral without any need for a God.
If its a unanimous agreement that it is necessary, it will become palatable. Unanimous being the operative word. If it came to that point, obviously something will have changed our morality to get us through that situation. Its difficult to use that argument because right now it is unacceptable given past history of genocides.
It doesn't even have to be a general consensus really. Slavery was abolished without full agreement, women were given equal rights etc. There were a great deal of people that had fully justified (in their mind) viewpoints opposing those decisions. Morality isn't rigid but flexes over time and circumstances. Religious absolutes even have loopholes or seem to based on interpretation. Last time I checked the 10 Commandments didn't have an addendum to Thou Shalt Not Kill...but it still goes on daily in justified, rationalized conditions.
LOL, Dawkins is a fool. Anyone that believes anything that guy says is a bigger fool! Evolution, for real? Please tell me people do not still believe that fairy-tail. Next thing you'll hear, they will be saying there is no G-d.
G-d does not condone the death penalty for minor offenses, nor does He condone slavery or more then one wife. The Bible records history, which does not mean that just because man did it, G-d approved it. If you are going to speak for G-d, please do not take away or add to His words, it only makes you look stupid.
on Comment #3 ..
"The McCarthy article is shameful bigotry. I hope no one at Crossfit HQ actually agrees with it.
Take a look at Turkey and Indonesia to see Islamic democracy in action."
its just shameful that I see this on a CrossFit page.
There are many Muslim CrossFitters around the globe and I am one of them, and talking about democracy, islamic countries like Saudi Arabia and Emirates and the rest Arab Muslim countries are best example of islamic democracy.
Smokin photo. That LP is one kick ass xfitter. I wod'ed with her once and she was a straight up ninja. WATCH OUT XFIT GAMES 2011!!!!!!
@Mush (#142), I have a feeling that the CrossFit HQ agrees with the article; given their unwavering support of soldiers to the point of putting them on a pedestal and making their workouts the hardest, I am not surprised. But politics should be nowhere near CrossFit, and if the site starts taking on a religious/political edge, I won't be returning or recommending it to anyone else.
#97 Jo, if you read the Old Testament then you know it endorses slavery, genocide, murder, and a host of other crimes, often committed by God himself. How do you square that with the fact that most Christians are peaceful?
MONEY - RELIGION - SEX
This site is so pleasant....I'm done with it all. Peace to those who seek it and to hell with the remaining lot.
Coach can choose to post whatever he wants.
You can choose not to read the articles.
Thanks for CF, Caoch
Cannot wait to storm tomorrow's WOD!
CFHQ can choose to post whatever it wants.
You can choose not to read the articles.
Cannot wait to storm tomorrow's WOD!
@ Smart guy,
I will assume, based on your tone, that you are joking.
Regarding the Matriarchy video...
As an instructor, I have been privileged to show numerous women who thought that the oxygen channel-style workouts were their cup of tea that they are strong women who were just waiting for someone to tell them to pick up something heavy...for someone who didn't have a preconceived notion of falsely low limitations to a woman's strength. I know I'm not the founder of CF, but to me CF continues to attract all types of women to boxes not because they want to be one of the boys, but because they want to be somewhere where they aren't told what they cannot do. When I'm completing Helen, I don't give a damn if I'm chasing a man or a woman, old or young, I just care that I have a group of supportive people to push me.
In my opinion, people need to stop constantly trying to bring sex up as an important central part of CrossFit...everyone who is working out in a box is an athlete, and that's all that should matter.
Sam 2 #149,
Just because something is mentioned in the Bible does not mean it is condoned by God. You must read these things in context. There are vile and wicked things in the Bible because it is an unadulterated story of history. The history of people like you and me that have sin filled hearts and desires. What would be odd if everyone in the Bible were perfect. No one can relate to that because it is not true to our reality.
I have looked at the evidence, and it is quite hazy. First, evolutionists believe that whales evolved from a creature that resembles modern dog. Second, most of the fossil evidence are fragments that have been reconstructed to resemble the animal as the paleintologist thinks it may have appeared. Third, many so called missing links are actually extinct species. Fourth, some fossil evidence may be misleading. For example, if thousands of years from now some scientists discover a human that was a dwarf, they might draw the conclusion that people were smaller in our time. Or someone that was born with an arm missing. They could conclude that we evolved an additional arm.
It is obvious that McCarthy is an anti-islamist, so his article shouldn't be posted by a company so positively influencing as CrossFit. The evidence that this man uses really puts the worst view on islam and that should be recognized by CFHQ. I only ask that CFHQ be mindful that you have muslims from all over the world following your fitness principles and return to your website for guidance in these matters only, not to be judge or have articles there to judge others faith. I have been muslims for 20 years (convert) and studied under well recognized scholars for 4 years in a university in Yemen and never have they misused or taught to misuse the islamic evidence like this fool McCarthy. I know this idiots intentions were to create havoc amongst religions, but what was the intentions of CFHQ. I reiterate, we come to this website for fitness enlightenment and motivation, not this garbage. This article ruined one of my workouts.
I read the article as saying that a Muslim Country that adheres to sharia law cannot function as a western-style democracy. Not " All Muslim countries cannot be functioning democracies" as many people seem to have read it.
To everyone arguing for/against the existance of God be careful you don't fall into an argument for ignorance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance.
Regarding evolution, there are two prime examples of indermediate species. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiktaalik The first 4 legged animal. And the famed Archeapteryx http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archeopteryx the 'missing' link between dinosaurs and birds.
@ Daniel Davis & others
The idea of millions(or in some yet un-mentioned cases billions) comes from radioisotope ratios in various rocks. These ratios vary from rock to rock but the more popular ones researchers look for are K-40/Ar-40 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%E2%80%93Ar_dating U-238 / Pb-206 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium-lead_dating
U-234/Th-230 and others. The more familiar C-14 dating is only practical back 50-60Kyrs and only possible back to 80Kyr after which there is no longer any detectable Carbon.
For those of you who haven't stopped reading yet here's an essay that addresses the discrepencies between Genesis and Science By Stephen Jay Gould(also look into "the panda's thumb")http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/82sep/8209gould.htm
#158 Daniel Davis, the Bible is filled with vile and wicked things done by God. Presumably if he is doing them, he's also condoning them. The obliteration of Sodom and Gomorrah comes to mind. Also the elimination of most of the humans on earth during the flood.
Jo, you say "There is only one belief that guarantees entry into heaven by the death of any non-believer. The Koran of Islam."
So after all your studies, and out of all the dozens or hundreds of interpretations available, you have chosen the same interpretation of the Koran favored by Al Qaeda. You need to go do some basic research on the other interpretations out there, before you assume that every Muslim believes the same as Al Qaeda.
@158 lets set it straight.
Even those devout christians have to agree on this point. The bible is not a metaphor. people that say it is can barely call themselves christians, but we will call them moderate christians. The bible, as it claims in its pages, is the final and UNALTERABLE word of god. So when it says that you should kill your wife on your wedding night (because you cant have sex before marriage), that means you are supposed to kill her. That is no metaphor. I could go on and on with those examples but you get the point.
You may notice, if you pay attention, that people do terrible things in the name of their religion, and that includes christianity. nine times out of ten those people are the religiously devout. They are the ones that follow their religion as RX'd. ;)
Today went for 5 rounds for time of:
5 Curtis Ps (including squat cleans) with 40# DBs
10 pec presses at 165#
13:45 min. Arms needed that! Why don't we ever have Curtis Ps on the main site WODs? :)
I also had an awful experience with rope climbs. 3 rope climbs and a 1/2" of sole is missing from my BRAND NEW inov-8 195'2. Yikes. Careful folks.
Josh, you have got to be kidding. If you do a little more "googling" as you say on evolution debate, you will see that every transitional form that evolutionists have brought up has been proven to either be a fake or an already known species. Java Man wasn't even a full skeleton and somehow they were able to give a life like sculpture of what he looks like.
Scott, watch Expelled with Ben Stein and see how confident Richard Dawkins is in evolution. Ben Stein, an actor, has him stammmering and talking about "DNA riding on the backs of crystals" and "directed panspermia"(aliens planting early life here on earth). Even he resorts to "intelligent design." Also, gravity is a law, not a theory as evolution.
Sam, when YOU spout evidence, the burden of proof is with YOU. You cannot shout that you have evidence and then not give it. If you want to give me your address or email, I can give you some evidence for my beliefs, but ultimately either one comes down to yes, faith. That is what believing in anything requires(even sitting on a chair, knowing it will hold you).
That I would need to post up the overwhelming evidence that would almost entirely invalidate most peoples supernatural beliefs shows the ignorance of knowlege that most people have. I hear a lot of I know this and that because of my faith. By definition that means you DO NOT know. Plain and simple.
Faith is a concept. It is not something we are forced to have. Everything I have said is verifiable if you take the time to research, I will not do it for you. Claims made by the religious are almost invariably unverifiable, which, luckily for you, almost gets to remain undeniable. But again I assert that claims made without evidence can be dismissed as such. That is why things like evolution are taught scholarly and the weaker pseudo sciences are not.
Educate yourself. Free your mind
Also the comparison of sitting in a chair and that it requires faith is ludicrous. Through experience, we know that if we sit in a chair, it will hold us. If faith played a part, it would be as though we had never sat in a chair and had no way to know that it would work, but decided to do it anyway, just hoping it wouldn't fail us.
That is the kind of poor rationale that must accompany belief in a supernatural deity.
@ Mike #153
hey guess what CrossFit puts our service members on a "pedestal" because that's where they belong. if you don't agree then go live in iran or north korea where soldiers don't die for your freedom. you don't have to agree with what the country does but saying our service memebers don't deserve to be elevated is just crazy. why don't you enlist then? you know why because you don't have 1% of the courage and nobility that these men and women have.
to my fellow Vets, please ignore this man and his ignorant comment. Every single one of you deserve a special place for taking an oath which less then 1% of the people in this country can say.
I wish I had more time to address some of these arguments that atheism is based on faith rather than scientific research, but I will focus my attention on the misconception that atheists believe that matter was spontaneously generated at some point.
The convention that the universe had a "beginning" and will have an "end" is an entirely man-made assumption. There is no evidence that there was a beginning and end, but rather I think its easier to believe the universe is perpetual. Our notions of time are simply fractional measurements of observed physical change that we have deemed useful in describing other changes that we observe.
So my next question to consider is, who knows how many "big bangs" there have been? (I understand that not everyone believes the big bang happened, but for the sake of this theory I'm going to use it as an assumption.)
Consider the universe as we know it. Constantly expanding to an unknown "end." I think its logical to believe that at some point the system must become unstable. The gravitational pull of the center of mass could slow the acceleration of the perimeter mass particles. I think it's logical to follow that all of masses on the perimeter could begin collapsing to a central point. That concentration of mass in one area could generate enough energy to create a massive explosion, and begin universal expansion all over again. This could be a perpetual cycle.
I'm not saying this is "fact," but considering that matter and energy cannot be created nor destroyed, I think its a plausible explanation for the universe as we see it. Our notions of beginnings and ends come from our own mortality. We should not apply it to things that have no proven beginning and end. Sorry for the fast writeup, I hope it makes some sense.
The idea of Evolution v. Religion is a red-herring. The argument, whether bedecked in Evolution, Islam, Christianity, or Flying Spaghetti Monster is:
Will you threaten my life, liberty, or property, based on what I believe?
If I don't agree with you, will you kill me? Will you not do business with me? Will you stand outside my home and shout at me?
#92 - Good article from The Humanist.
#97 - Couple of my favorite verses from the Old Testament:
Genesis 6:4 "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."
Genesis 17:12-14 "And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations , he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that should shall be cut off form his people; he hath broken my covenant."
#158 - What is the context of the following statement directly attributed to the Lord:
Dueteronomy 7:1-2 "When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them"
Descartes' coy description of faith: "although it is quite true that the existence of God is to be believed since it is taught in the sacred Scriptures, and that, on the other hand, the sacred Scriptures are to be believed because they come from God (for since faith is a gift of God, the same Being who bestows grace to enable us to believe other things, can likewise impart of it to enable us to believe his own existence), nevertheless, this cannot be submitted to infidels, who would consider that the reasoning proceeded in a circle."
I wrongly attributed the quote above to John Stuart Mill, it was Locke's 2nd Treatise on Civil Government.
However, I would like to amplify my last comment with a quote from Mill:
"The principle itself of dogmatic religion, dogmatic morality, dogmatic philosophy, is what requires to be rooted out; not any particular manifestation of that principle."
@ Brian PCF
Tell me if I am wrong, but wasn't Mill the same guy that wrote the essay "The Negro Question"?
I love his work, a true rationalist and humanist!
My favorite part of that paper is when he said "I see nothing divine in this injunction. If the gods will this, it is the first duty of human beings to resist such gods." He was of course speaking on God's condoning ans supporting of slavery. For those that know their bible that is a certainty.
Crossfit HQ, please consider the effects of the McCarthy article on Muslim soldiers in the Army and Marines, logging on to your site to get the WOD. They are risking their lives to defend democracy and freedom, and you show them an article telling them they are undemocratic, because of their faith. How insulting and degrading.
Referring to Ben Stein as an "actor" when discussing intellectual pursuits is a gross understatement of his formidable intellect my friend. He was an econ major at Columbia and then went on to get his JD at Yale. And if you don't like Dawkins, totally fine by me. I just thought his book might be more readily digestible for many on this website b/c of his writing style. There are, quite literally, hundreds upon hundreds of books that will leave the reader with no doubt in the veracity of the "theory" of evolution. Stop reading the internet to buttress your argument with a 30-second Wikipedia search. Take the time to read an expert opinion from both sides and THEN make your decision.
My two cents!
Last time I promise.
Sam, faith by definition is complete trust in "blank"(you fill in blank), per Webster's and other online definitions as well. You do have to have complete trust that whoever built that chair did it correctly, whoever made that car didn't forget something, and whoever designed the roller coaster installed the saftey bars properly(and that science is right about atoms in a solid). You put faith in different things or ideas each and everyday, including evolution. I have researched evolution and if you want to insinuate that I am not smart enough to understand, I will glady compare my IQ and scholastic achievements with you anyday. I have taken the time to study both sides of the argument, even tried to reconcile the two with some type of theistic evolution at one point during college. As I studied more and more about evolution I realized that it was not consistent with science or more importantly mathematics. I challenge you as well to watch Expelled with Ben Stein. I will not insinuate that you are too dumb to understand it. Just watch it. There have been and still are plenty of very intelligent scientists who believe in some type of intelligent designer and use that premise to make amazing discoveries about the world in which we live. I wish I could find the quote from a very prominent scientist in which he states that scientists today must shout evolution to the masses, but study the world in which we live as purposeful or designed and not random.
Let's see if we can put some sense to this because folks have brought up some interesting points.
Sam @ #164,
I am not claiming that the entire Bible is to be read as metaphor. Again, it is to be read in context. For example, in John 15:1 Jesus states, "I am the true vine...". Now, is Jesus saying he really is a vine? Of course not. It's a type and a picture, or a metaphor.
Brian @ #172,
You have raised one of the most difficult questions regarding the Bible that one can encounter. How could a good God allow or actually demand extermination of certain peoples? I certainly do not claim to know the mind of God, but I will try and answer as open and honestly as possible. We know from the Bible many characteristics of God, such as, God is love (1 John 4:8), God is truthful (John 14:6) and I think most importantly, God is just (Acts 17:31). And we also know that God is perfect, and unchanging, so He cannot be anything other than that which He is. Since God is all knowing, He also knows the future, and understands the implications of todays actions affecting tomorrows outcome. So, now we review the topic one more time with that in mind. God calls for the destruction of entire peoples, as well as the death of many during the great flood. But this is not done without justification or reason. Deut 20:16-18 states, "In regard to the Canaanites, God commanded, “However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them — the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites — as the LORD your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God”. God orders the killing of these people because He knows the influence they will have on the Israelites. And history teaches us that the Israelites failed in this task. They did not wipe out all of the peoples, and what then unfolded happened as predicted. For justice to be had, each and everyone one of us should not have the gift of life, because we have sinned against God and against humanity (all of us). The penalty or the attonement for sin (any sin, big or small) is death. So, if someone is a sinner, and they receive anything other than death, they have been given mercy. But if they do receive death, they have been given justice.
I would also like to point out a common falicy regarding the ten commandments. People see that it states, "Thou shalt not kill", yet people see soldiers engaged in war, killing others. The Jews had two different words for killing: one meant murder, and the other meant killing. The actual commandment is "Thou shalt not murder". We need to define our terms here for the sake of the argument, so I define them as murder is unjustifiable death, and killing is justifiable death. I will fist preface this with the fact that every human life is a gift and is to be cherished, however, there are instances where killing someone is warranted. Many people on this site can understand that if someone with evil intentions broke into their house where their family was sleeping, they would probably do everything in their power to protect their family, even if that meant killing the intruder. Another scenario could involve a kid that takes a gun or an explosive device to school. If a police officer shoots that kid to save the lives of others, is it justified? I would surmise it is. Is this the ideal outcome? Absolutely not, and I think any officer put in that situation would always prefer it end peacably. So in closing, I would have to say that killing someone can be justified, and it can also contribute to a greater good. Again, I understand this is a very difficult topic, and I hope that what I have stated may ring true.
I would like to end this post on a positive note, so I quote from my favorite book, John. "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows." (John 10:28-31)
#180 Sam Harris - that's a great read, for anyone else that wants to take a look, see here:
Perfectly in agreement with Frederick Douglass view of the matter fifteen years later:
In regard to the colored people, there is always more that is benevolent, I perceive, than just, manifested towards us. What I ask for the negro is not benevolence, not pity, not sympathy, but simply justice. The American people have always been anxious to know what they shall do with us... I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us. Do nothing with us! If the apples will not remain on the tree of their own strength, if they are worm-eaten at the core, if they are early ripe and disposed to fall, let them fall! ... And if the negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall also. All I ask is, give him a chance to stand on his own legs! Let him alone! ... your interference is doing him positive injury.
"What the Black Man Wants" — speech in Boston, Massachusetts
Sorry forgot one thing.
Scott, 1) Ben Stein is not my "buddy", never even claimed that, just referencing the fact that he was in the movie
2) I was not pointing to the Hitler argument, which I think that the movie could do without. I was pointing to the fact that the so called leading scientists had no answer and stuttered over their own beliefs. And as I said before, resorted to intelligent design themselves through "directed panspermia."
Have a wonderful day and weekend. Enjoyed the debate!!
Matt @ Comment #171,
You have hit on the crux of the argument. We, as humans, exist in time. The physical universe around us that we interact with, exists in time. It is unanimously agreed no matter what side of the fence you are on as far as naturalism or creationism, the physical universe had a beginning. Einstein showed us that space and time are one and the same, a continuous "fabric". So, for space/time to exist, there must have been a starting point. I understand where you are coming from as far as the expanding/contracting universe theory, but the universe cannot be seperated from time, regardless of the number of times the universe has expanded/contracted and expanded yet again.
other post stuck in filter
Latham - again you stick to the Old Testament to bash Christianity. I say again, read it, cover to cover, and then let's talk. If you think Christianity is completely based on the Old Testament, you are wrong ..... mush like watching 1/2 of a football game and believing the outcome based on the half-time score.
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."
"Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."
1) It should in no way matter if the old testament is used as opposed to the new testament. Both are The final words of God, or so the pages of the bible say.
2) the verses above are from the new testament. They are just a few that can be chosen from a plethera of evil that is evident in the bible.
Daniel Davis @ Comment #185,
You've misinterpreted Einstein's space-time fabric. His theory was in contrast to the old absolute space-time relationship modeled in Newtonian physics. Einstein has been quoted numerous times about the lack of existence of past-present-future.
"Since there exists in this four dimensional structure [space-time] no longer any sections which represent "now" objectively, the concepts of happening and becoming are indeed not completely suspended, but yet complicated. It appears therefore more natural to think of physical reality as a four dimensional existence, instead of, as hitherto, the evolution of a three dimensional existence." - Einstein
"...for us physicists believe the separation between past, present, and future is only an illusion, although a convincing one." - Einstein.
The theory of relativity basically models space and time as functions of each other lying on an infinite continuum. Space and time are both infinite, neither having a beginning, nor an end.
JP, I don't see how the New Testament enters into it. Nothing that happens in the New Testament could possibly expunge the Old Testament. As an analogy, no amount of community service or sincere apologies can erase a murderer's crime.
I'm not "bashing" anything. I'm stating facts.
You're stating partial fact, and leaving out the part you choose to.
"As an analogy, no amount of community service or sincere apologies can erase a murderer's crime." Not true .... read the New Testament. Christ's sacrifice for ALL our sins opens the door for us to experience our Father's forgiveness. That forgiveness found in the New Testament is the gift!
JP, what about the citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah, and Lot's wife? Who provides forgiveness for their murders?
# 197 - Forgiveness is not free, but for those believers who came before Christ, their forgiveness is outlined in Romans 3:21 through 3:26. It comes from God always.
JP...God murdered Lot's wife...does he just forgive himself for that?
1. There is no reason to assume that there was ever a beginning to the universe. It is of course our first instinct to think that things have beginnings and ends in a linear fashion, but as the first law of thermodynamics implies, nothing ever truly ends or begins.
2. If one looks at the physics of the big bang, there is nothing to imply that space/time began at that time, only that it expanded incredibly rapidly resulting in the universe today. Looking back, the pre-big bang universe was practically nonexistent in terms of size when compared to the current universe (in fact using general relativity you reach a singularity of infinite density and temperature), but it probably existed nonetheless.
The citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah were judged for their wicked and sinful lifestyle. Remember in Genesis 18, Abraham pleaded with God to spare the city if just 50 righteous people could be found in the city. After God agreed, Abraham, concerned that there may not be 50 righteous people in the city, widdled the number down to ten. For ten righteous people in the entire city God would spare everyone. Unfortunately for the citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah, there were not ten righteous people to be found, and the city destroyed. I surmise that Lot and his family were the only righteous people to be spared.
Ezekial 16:49-50 provides the trespasses committed by those citizens. "Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me..." Other passages describe the sexual immorality that occurred in the city, and I think everyone can put together what the word sodom represents today. The town people even attempted raping the two angels sent to warn Lot, so they had no right at living because of the penalty of sin. Allowing them to live is a gift of mercy and grace. Allowing any of us to live is a gift of mercy and grace because not one of us is deserving of life.
The question of why Lot's wife was turned to a pillar of salt has two possibilities in my mind. First, the angels that were sent to tell Lot's family to leave the city had directly told the family to flee and to not look back. Of course she looked back in defiance, and was then turned into salt. The second possibility is that Lot's wife was looking back at the city longingly, and that maybe part of her heart was consumed by the sinful ways of the city.
I'm waiving the white flag on the astrophysics. I appreciate the insight from everyone, and I have to say, the subject blows my mind EVERY time.
Last comment, but there is no need to excuse any part of the Bible, old or new testament. Taking verses out of context is easy to prove an agenda, and a lot of confusing conclusions can be made when this happens.
I'm not sure which translation that is, but my NIV states the following for verse 37. "Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worth of me."
So, He does come with a sword, but not to condemn everyone, only to condemn those who have rejected Him. You see, we are all given a choice in this world, but that choice has eternal consequences.
Luke 12, that's a good one. Have you seen anything more true today? I see these very divisions in my own extended family. There becomes a riff between the believer and the non-believer. It's our human tendancy to embrace our free will, and to lean on our own understanding. God extended the olive branch while we were still denying Him. Romans 5:8 says, "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
JP - so you support death by fire as an appropriate punishment for arrogance, overfeeding, apathy, or homosexuality? For rape, I might understand, but only a handful of citizens were attempting to rape the angels. Not the entire city.
Do you support the death penalty for "defiance"?
Here's my point: the Koran has verses that could be interpreted as calling for death to nonbelievers:
2:191: And kill them wherever you find them
9:5: slay the idolaters wherever you find them
and other verses calling for answering hatred with peace:
Nor can goodness and Evil be equal. Repel (Evil) with what is better: Then will he between whom and thee was hatred become as it were thy friend and intimate!
So, each Muslim pursues their own interpretation. 99.9% accept an interpretation of peace, and a tiny number accept an interpretation of violence.
The Bible condones death by fire for gluttony, homosexuality and "defiance", but it also calls for turning the other cheek. 99.9% of Christians accept the interpretation of peace, and a tiny number accept an interpretation of violence.
You haven't shown me anything that differentiates the violence of the Koran from the violence of the Bible.
Yes Daniel Davis, according to the bible, the people of Sodom did attempt to rape the angels sent to speak with Lot's family. And what did Lot, the one good and righteous man in the city do? He offered to send you his young and innocent daughters to the mob, so that they could be raped instead. Thank goodness we've got the bible to provide us with such great role models or we would all be so lost wouldn't we?
People that think that modern morality stems from the bible, have obviously never read the bible...