My CF Los Altos 5:30 AM classes will be doing "Lumberjack 20" on Tuesday and Thursday this week. RIP to all of those soldiers on that unfortunate day.

Let's see...looking at the photo...are the soldiers going to do a WOD after they've already finished morning PT?

Sigh...yet another picture of one or two people working out and a large group of military personnel milling around and watching. This is one BIG reason why implementing CF as unit PT can be fruitless; unless budget and storage can accommodate 100 C2 rowers, KBs, medicine balls, and such, there is way too much standing around for an hour-long PT session.

The mix-and-match of PT gear looks rather un-Army like, but I dig the rank pinned on to the reflective belts.

I'm doin the squat Wod on this rest day. Turkey day messed my schedule all up!

Turkey day messed my schedule all up. so i'll be doing the squat WOD from today, on this Rx'd day of rest...

I just hear the SSG on the right counting 0, 0, 0, 0, 0.... all the while thinking to himself "when is she going to do a real pull-up".

ha ha! 0-0-0....

Interesting Wired article. It is in no way surprising to me that science has yet again been forced into the backseat of society by the stupid, irrational, and lazy. Evolution, unfortunately, falls into the same category as the importance of vaccination.

How about this, opt-out of vaccinating your children, send that vaccine to anywhere in Africa. Then, when your kid dies, at least another child was able to live.

That and teach evolution in public schools. Everywhere, period.

Oh praise those rest days lol

So what is everyone else doing so they to can get the HERO WOD in , is anyone going to go wed-tues . I hate to miss a good WOD. Delemia

Why would you put up a one sided article about the H1N1 vaccination????? I do not see how this has anything to do with Crossfit what so ever. I understand articles on Nutrition, Exercise science, stretching etc.... but why this? I am sure you would not put up an article that is anti MD and Pro Holistic Practitioner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Come on Crossfit, stick to the program.

I am shocked and disappointed as well by this article posted about vaccines for children. This article is one of the most one-sided pieces of propaganda I have read yet! Full of large words and theoretical paraphrasing to confuse the every day population. It talks about the epidemic of fear in society but this article is one of the worst fear mongering tactics on the opposing side. I agree CROSSFIT.... Lets stick to the program and leave politics out of it!

Stick to the program? You must be newbies. A rest day article that usually sparks some sort of controversy has been the Crossfit "program" for some time now. Like it or hate, that is part of the program. Argue your point and back it up with facts, just read the debate, or don't tune in on rest day. Your choice, but it's not going to change. This is not your typical exercise program.

95
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Most of American society appears stupid, irrational, and lacks common sense about shot/vaccinations. I believe I have had every shot/vaccinations for known and unknown diseases (thanks to US Army)and I'm fine. My family is healthy, my friends are healthy. I will get vaccinated so I do not get sick from those of you that do not.

Agreed on the need to vaccinate. Absolutely essential for the greater good of society. Observable, measurable, repeatable data supports the need to vaccinate. This is just another case of good science vs. bad science.

Most of American society appears stupid, irrational, and lacks common sense.
"Lets go hiking on the Iraq Iran border"
War in Iraq
Iran axis of evil
Common sense in not common

We don't trust the government/FDA on their other health recommendations, why would we trust them when it comes to vaccines?

My son stopped speaking the same week he got his one-year MMR (measles, mumps and rubella) vaccination. He would not speak again for another year. He started speaking again when we went gluten and dairy free. He picked up exactly where he was when he got his vaccination.

Tyler,
Being a newbie (which I am not)and knowing the crossfit exercise program (which I do)has nothing to do with why I found this article disturbing. I usually enjoy the controversy that brews after reading the rest day articles. However, I found that this article was written to produce FEAR and to upset the reader. I think it was irresponsible of Crossfit HQ to post such a right wing article.

Added to #15

He was later diagnosed with autism and it is something that we all deal with on a daily basis. Glad that many of you, like myself, have had great success with vaccinations and have had no ill-effects. However, I would appreciate it if you kept your comments about my irrational and stupid "beliefs" to yourself. I can tell you without a doubt that my son stopped speaking the very same week he got his one-year shots. I am not saying the shots caused it, but they most certainly triggered it. I could give a damn about "the greater good of society"... I want my son to have normal life. I mourn the loss of the son that I had.

Shame on CrossFit HQ for stirring the cup on this one. This certainly hits too close to home for me.

I'm a father also, and my children have had all the required vaccinations and are healthily

Jason, I am sorry for your loss

This article really invokes some tough questions. Are we to trust the same public health officials who brought us the 12-servings-of-wheat food pyramid? Or the scientists who send emails about how to discredit science that does not support their pet research? As CFers, we love to question conventional rhetoric (running shoes reduce injuries, prolonged low-heart rate workouts burn more fat) but this article clearly seems to advocate the side of proven science. Interesting indeed. Not all conventional thought is harmful, and we have to be careful not to jump on the bandwagon of the irrational and invoke false causal relationships when they may be coincidental.

Powerfully written article - I wish that every parent took the time to read it in full before taking their children to the pediatrician's office.

To those of you that call it 'propaganda', perhaps you should take the time to read the New England Journal of Medicine once in a while - cold, hard, peer-reviewed facts are surprisingly refreshing, even if you don't like them. And as for the big words, they are worth looking up - education should never stop just because you received a diploma.

Jeff - I hear ya - even in a Catholic grade school (and especially in a Catholic college), we learned evolution in science class and saved the Biblical interpretation for theology class.

As a paramedic and parent I have to say I'm not convinced that I am for vaccinating my children. I have not done it. It's interesting to me that being pro-vaccination would be considered right wing, when to me it seems that universal vaccination would fall more in line with the Socialist ideals. Especially using terms like the "greater good." There is certainly reason for scepticism given the trace amounts of heavy metals in the vaccinations. I'm interested in seeing where this goes.

Reply to #5

Shame on you Jeff. Actually appearing to wish terrible things on someone's child in response to their personal choice? You really should read your post again and consider your words. I would never expect such vile ideas from a Crossfitter. Kinda sad really and disappointing.

I don't trust the FDA to approve safe meds/vaccines/etc, especially after all the recalls over the past several years--remember VIOXX and the rest of these meds??? I especially don't trust their work in such a time-compressed project as the H1N1 vaccine. I work as a firefighter/paramedic and did not get vaccinated myself for either seasonal or H1N1 flu. My family also did not get vaccinated. My wife and two kids all appear to have come down with a case of H1N1 a few weeks ago. We managed fevers, hydration, and general comfort levels carefully and never saw the need to go to the ER or urgent care or anything else. Nothing bad happened to anyone and now the kids and wife are fine--and I believe, stronger for having been sick. Oh, I do not believe that being sick is necessarily 'bad'.

So, to close this out: Wash your hands, cough and sneeze into your sleeve/tissue/shoulder, drink plenty of water, don't hang out with sick people, etc. In essence, pay attention to detail, don't get any on you!!

at #15 Autism has a delay onset. I do not think the vaccinations had anything to do with your child developing symptoms. Although I think there is a 1/1000 chance it could cause autism there is still a must great chance of catching the disease... Vaccinate.

wow. this is going to get interesting. i'll continue paleo and crossfit (aka taking care of my one body i've been given) and not getting vaccinated for the flu. and if you choose to get vaccinated or your children vaccinated, then go for it. that's why america is such a great country! let's keep it that way! let each of us choose what we want to do with their bodies.

Agreed with Cori-

If you want to, great. If you don't, great. Personally, I've had no vaccinations, I take care of my body, and don't get sick....ever.

I personally don't like anything that the government tries to push down my throat as it seems they are doing with all of the recent vaccinations.

#23 dave,

So what autism has delayed onset? So what "triggers" that onset? It could in some cases be the stresses vaccinations cause, in other cases it might no be. Autism is tricky and I currently belive a sort of catch-all for a host of different issues that display similarly.

We vaccinated and had a similar response to Jason NWA, so with our second child we had the shots spread out over several months instead of having soemthing like 3 shots all with all mulitple toxic cocktails on the same day. Am I criminal, kludge, or irresponsible for doing so? You aren't going to die if I or my family don't get a vaccination so just let it go.

I like the statement above about all the stuff we don't trust the govt FDA/healthcare/IRS/etc about then blindly follow them on this? Seriously?

To those of you saying "for the greater good" and like, who decides? Who decides when a vaccinne is ready for people, when it should be administered, etc. A govt commettee in the pocket of drug companies? (Rick Perry, gov of TX was and tried this crap. Look it up). Might as well just agree to with full on govt healthcare.. enjoy Big Bro taking the decision out of everyone's hands.

We're currently in the "libertarian paternalism" phase for vaccinations, isn't that enough?

Autism and shots are "magical thinking".

Ever thought that the age at which the shot is given is also around the same age that Autism manifests? Just because two things happen at the same time does not prove causation.

Vaccinations have saved millions of lives and is proven effective. All shots come with risks...always have, but you run a greater risk of killing your family every time you take them on a trip to the store.

People need to use their brains.

J.T.,
Hey, man, it's easy to criticize when you have no idea what you're talking about. Crossfit Lumberjack has both officers and NCO's that have been certified as trainers. They have an open invite to all Soldiers and civilians affiliated with the post to work out with them. So, what you're seeing is a Soldier's spouse doing pull-ups (who I am familiar with), a Crossfit trainer/Soldier who is not affiliated with that unit, and a Staff Sergeant from that unit assisting. The Joes in the back have clearly finished PT since they're soaked in sweat and I don't remember an Army regulation stating that every day of the week you must work out and it must be an hour long. On top of that, the only "mix and matching" you see are Soldiers wearing their authorized unit PT shirt or Army PT shirt. It's also pathetic if think that the only people that can do Crossfit need rowers and medicine balls. Trust me, you can complete these work-outs with ammo cans, sand bags, metal bars (SDHP subs for row), weighted vests, litter carries, etc. Get informed before you start criticizing ANY sort of organization.

DOC MOCK

#3 Spencer - I don't think he's saying "0..." Given her body position in the picture, I'm guessing she's in the middle of a kip, and anyone with a kip that big probably is doing several pullups in a row...

As for Crossfit in large formations - I'm all for it. If you watch the videos and read the material, it's not about having a rower or a medicine ball. Anything is workable! Infinitely scalable just doesn't apply to physical capability - it can apply to modality and/or application of the CF method as well.

What about a big group doing Cindy? What about a group "Tabata" competition of pushups, situps, and air squats? That would be, after warmup, 24 minutes of superior PT - much less than the typical Army PT program. Or partner assisted squats (fireman's carry then squat). COC (confidence obstacle course). 5-gallon water cans used for SDHPs. Gallon milk jugs filled with water for kettlebell exercises. Heck, come up with alternate exercises for fight gone bad and have 6 groups (5 working, 1 resting) - plenty of spaces, especially for a platoon or company.
There's even "mission" workouts in OPORD format available in CFJ.

Point I'm making is just because the Army can't/won't purchase C2 rowers or dynamax mediballs doesn't mean company and battalion-level leadership can't embrace CF as a superior fitness regime and implement. They can, and in my opinion, should. If a unit in Iraq or Afghanistan can figure out how to do it, then units in garrison can figure it out as well. Adapt, overcome and 3, 2, 1...GO!

Matt

You "don't get sick" because you are taking advantage of the fact that the bulk of the population around you is vaccinated. If they don't catch it, they can't pass it to you.

More magical thinking.

1. MMR and the influenza vaccine were the only vaccine with trace levels of mercury in it, which were in the form of ethyl-mercury. We read about mercury toxicity in water supplies, that is methyl-mercury. All mental illness (some are similar to autism in symptoms) that is associated with mercury poisoning is with large amounts of methyl-mercury. How big of a difference is one carbon molecule (think methyl alcohol vs ethyl alcohol).
2. There is no longer any mercury in MMR, they removed it years ago (and yet autism rates have continued to climb, a case could be made that the mercury in MMR was actually protective against autism, lol). Autism rates climb because clinicians are getting better at identifying it and there are more government programs for autistic children vs mentally retarded. Parents are coercing pediatricians to misdiagnose children so they can get access to a lot of government dollars.
3. Vaccination is not a personal choice. Religion and politics are personal, viruses are not. Viruses effect everyone. The concept of herd immunity and diminished immunity are key here. As we get older we lose our immunity to many diseases. If we don't vaccinate everyone, than the 80 year old guy or gal with a weakened immunity will get sick and die when they didn't need to. Herd immunity is the concept that if everyone else is immune, there is nowhere for the virus to hide and you yourself will not get sick even if you don't have the vaccine. With so many people opting out of vaccines, herd immunity is on the fall.
4. Many people claim that the immunological load is too great and vaccines should be pared down or spaced out. The immunological load of vaccines is about 187 different proteins by the age 10. Versus your common streptococcal throat infection which carries millions of immunologically active proteins the body reacts against.
5. People who advocate avoiding vaccines push a simplistic and ideological approach to medicine that fails to account for the infinitely complex problems of the physical world. Often quoting it is the "natural" way. Guess what, cancer is natural, and so is post streptococcal rheumatic fever. Sure, there are risks to vaccines, like allergic reactions to eggs in influenza or the rare risk you will contract that actual disease (with the live Polio, which has been phased out). You have to look at the bigger picture. You have a 1/10,000,000 chance of getting sick from the vaccine or a 1/1,000 chance of getting sick from the disease.
6. You wouldn't take life advice from a playboy model on say, your finances or your choice in college. Why take her advice on vaccines?

Please vaccinate your children for everyone's sake. Trust the scientists, not the porn stars.

J.T.
Leave that unit alone and stop criticizing them. They've gone through enough.

#28 Tom- seeing as how you have no idea who I come in contact with on a daily basis, that statement had zero merit.

I'm not in this to start a debate; rather I was putting in my two cents. If you'll look at the rest of my statement, it was basically saying "to each his own".

"Moreover, gluten- and dairy-free diets did not appear to improve autism and sometimes caused nutritional deficiencies."

Science doesn't know everything.

I would vaccinate my kids, but I surely don't think the state should have the power to force me to.

When we don't have the right to ingest what we want and we are forced to ingest things we don't want, do we really have freedom? Is there a freedom to be wrong?

The history of state mandates and regulation is replete with wrong turns: LOW-FAT, anyone?

Meningitis are one thing, but the flu is such a non-issue for healthy people. I have a feeling that people are just getting tired of the state's alarmism and co-opting of often bad science--global warming and low-fat are two huge examples. Just let people choose for themselves.

To those that say, people are obligated to get vaccinated in order to protect others, I'd like to know if someone gets me sick if they are criminally liable for damages.

Overall, though, Offit and his vaccines are probably a good thing.

1. I sure am glad I live in an era free from diseases like smallpox and polio.

2. I do not have blind faith in the government, drug companies or even scientists. Even when well-intentioned, they have been wrong in the past and will be be wrong again in the future.

3. I like to base my decisions on evidence. The article lacked evidence. Perhaps the case for vaccines is strong, but I was not impressed by the writer.

Re H1N1 # 8:

An interesting statistics project would be to find the overall mean and standard deviation of the first "What does this have to do with CF" post on Rest Days. My hip-pocket guess would be that mean=Post #12, StDev=5 posts.

I had a feeling this article would inspire a lot of passion on both sides of the debate. The empirical data is certainly stacked in the favor of vaccines not causing autism. Part of the issue, which was not raised in the article unless I missed it, was the fact that diagnosed cases of autism have seen hockey stick-like growth in the last 20 years. As much as "Do vaccines cause autism" is a lightning rod, "Is your child actually autistic" is even more of one.

It kind of reminds me of Coach's often-repeated dialectic of personal story vs. methodological narrative vs. raw data. The "vaccines cause autism" camp are grounded in the anecdotal realm of story and narrative. The other side is grounded in data. Although I certainly sympathize with people whose children have been diagnosed with autism shortly following their vaccinations, and can see myself coming to the same conclusions if I were in that situation, at this point all the empirical data I have seen is on the side of people like Offit.

And again, I say that with deep sympathy and full respect for the experience-driven opinions of people like Penty and Jason NWA.

#15. They took the Bible out of the schools and now the jails are full.

Correlation is not causation

While I do sympathize with any parent who is concerned for his/her child it should be understood that the evidence is conclusive; vaccinations work, we need them, they are not dangerous and they DO NOT "TRIGGER" AUTISM! There have been dozens of studies done on hundreds of thousands of children exploring the link between childhood vaccinations, most of them due to celebrity fear mongering from people like Jenny McCarthy. The results are unanimous, there isn't, never was and never will be any link between the two. Autism manifests at almost the exact same time as children get their vaccines, this is not cause and effect, it is two totally unrelated actions that happen to occur at the same time.

#33 jsa

Why do you think we live in an era free from diseases like smallpox and polio? Vaccination.

#27 Tom. Not everyone is cut from the same cloth. Different people have different "predispositons", stressors are what cause them to manifest. A many shot toxic cocktail in a single doctor's visit is quite a stressor is it not (studies done on chemical tolerances of ADULTS does not translate to developing babies, there are plenty of examples of this)? Could it be the one of the unique triggers to pushes autism on to someone who was just predisposed before?

Additionally, Tom, don't compare apples to oranges then say "people need to use their brains", use your brain. The issue isn't if it's more dangerous to take your kid to the store than be vaccinated it's "Is the current risk of negative effect of the shot greater or less than the chance of coming down with whatever thing the vaccine is for?"

I am glad to see a rest day article with which I agree, for a change. Although I would never advocate mandatory vaccination programs, I urge parents not to believe the pseudo-scientific movement against vaccinations. A similar conspiracy-theory movement occurred when the Polio vaccine came out, and that vaccine saved countless people from death and paralysis. Here in Colorado we are seeing a resurgence in Pertussis due to the decision making powers of housewives who have been fed misinformation. It is tragic that in a first world country we now have to contend with formerly third world diseases simply because people are uninformed and because there is a media market for anti-science. Welcome to the endarkenment.

The simple fact of the matter is you have no earthly idea what is really in that needle that is being put in your kid's arm.

I'll take my chances, thanks anyway.

Christopher,#29 "3. Vaccination is not a personal choice. Religion and politics are personal, viruses are not. "

Your conclusion is in error. Yes, illness not ethical but the how & whys of treatment are 100% ethical and moral in their decisions and considerations. Therefore vaccination, being a treatment, IS both a moral and ethical choice, both for those who chose for themselves and for those who feel they have right to choose for others w/ no other reason than they want to.

#36 Jesco, to decalre "the never will be" (evidence) in this case is fanatism and not science. To claim "science" then to claim such a thing is hypocritical. Science always leaves room for correction.

Re Dan #34: I don't need a narrative other than to clarify upfront what others would claim is a bias. If I didn't some yahoo would jump on that too if it came out later. A little Catch-22, people like to throw out in my experince.

MY issue, Dan, is people thinking they have the right to force their views on others regardless. I'm funny like that, preferring freedom/personal choice/personal responibilty.

Here is a great article with the other side of the story on vaccine's.

http://www.straight.com/article-270843/vancouver/whats-your-vaccine

Me personally,I don't get them, nor will I vaccinate my children in the future. This is where QUALITY food trumps any ratio as far as health. When eating the best food possible, replacing nutrients if needed (n-3,Vit-D), while combining that with solid sleeping habits (9+hrs/night,dark room), you tend to have a much better immune system defense then some chemical solution will give you. Is there cause for concern with regards to children? Sure there is, but I would lay money down that these are the same children who were not breast fed very long, if at all and they only eat foods that are white. Susceptibility is going to be different from person to person, but it truly is lifestyle factors that play the biggest role, IMO. For example, many women have the genes that are thought to induce breast cancer (BRCA I&II)Is this cause for them to have a mastectomy before diagnosis because they may have a potential? Of course not! Many women have these genes yet do not develop the disease. Lifestyle factors ultimately controls them. You may say that is a far stretch (flu vs breast cancer). True, but essentially the same idea.

#37 Harpo, as has been pointed out several times on this board correlation is not causation.

Everyone in the 'MMR Vaccine causes Autism' camp knows that rubella (the 'R' in MMR) is a KNOWN CAUSE OF AUSTISM, right??

This doesn't occur when the already born child gets it, but when they have congenital rubella syndrome. So, not vaccinating your children can ruin your future grandkids lives. Think about that.

Jenny McCarthy and the rest of the MMR vaccine-autism bandwagon have no idea what they are talking about. The science is clear and distinct in one direction. The doctor, Andrew Wakefield, who proposed the idea had his British medical license removed. He ran unnecessary tests on children - accidentally causing harm to a few, he took out a patent(or license?) on the stand alone doses of the measles, mumps and rubella vaccines (instead of all three in one), and he now works as a naturopath in the US earning a living off parents of autistic kids. But this is old news. (Homeopathy/naturopathy also has no evidence supporting its use, but that can be saved for a different rest day.)

The real problem lies with the media. "Medical Journalism" is a joke. People without a science background, who lack understanding of the topic, misinterpret and mislead the faithful public. People trust journalists. Unfortunately, pitting good quality science with no media exposure against stupid claims, outright lies and emotive personal stories creates fear and doubt. It is criminal. Interestingly, public rejection of these proven vaccines is a snobby, elitist, first world phenomenon.

To all the parents of autistic kids, I am sorry the way things turned out. I feel for your family. But I can't stand by and let you promote this antiMMR/antivaccine garbage based off your hunch. As Rip would say, it's silly BS.

The fact that people notice austism around the same time that the child receives the MMR vaccine is really unfortunate for society.

This should not be up for debate. The other side doesn't exist.

Ben W,

you're misinformed and many other words I'm not sure I can write on this board. In your opinion, "it truly is lifestyle factors that play the biggest role". Why should I beleive your opinion? What evidence do you have for this? Your comparison of breast cancer to infection leads me to beleive that you have little scientific or medical knowledge.

Food and sleep will not protect you from polio, tetanus, diptheria, pertussis, measles, mumps or rubella. Good try though.

Ok, tried to stay out of it, but couldn't help myself.

Mandatory vaccines make about as much logical and ethical sense as most other decrees.

I support anybody's right to have a vaccine. I also support anyone's choice not to have one.

For those who kneel at the altar of science to support their arguments, there's a little naivete there. Just because a study has been published in a peer-reviewed journal doesn't mean its conclusions are correct. Deductive logical reasoning will trump inductive leaps of logic (eg it was true in this population therefore it is true for the whole world).

For those who love statistics though, look for the increased incidence of aseptic meningitis simultaneous with the decrease in polio since vaccines introduced. AM can have similar symptoms to polio. Look at the decrease in mortality and morbidity from most childhood diseases that occurred before the introducton of vaccines for those diseases. Look at the reduction in SIDS in the Japanese prefecture where the vaccination age was lifted to 2yo rather than intje first few weeks and months of life.

No question that there is less incidence of some childhood diseases since vaccination. Lots of questions about how much that change has cost in terms of iatrogenic effect.

Call me old-fashioned or stupid, but I'll put my trust in maintaining a healthy nervous system, eating well, exercising well and thinking well.

And as for whoever said that cancer was natural: look up the incidence of cancer in wolves and other wild dogs vs cancer in domestic dogs. When a species lives according to it's genetics, cancer is almost non-existent.

Maybe we could live a bit more in line with our genetics and see what happens with the rates of infectious diseases (and more importantly the complications of those diseases).

Meanwhile, if you want a vaccine, go for it. But don't call me irresponsible/dumb/etc when I choose not to. I've done my research and critical thinking. Have you done yours?

By the way, I'm crossfitting, but haven't been posting due to time challenges. Hopefully that settles down soon.

Cheers all!

Ok, tried to stay out of it, but couldn't help myself.

Mandatory vaccines make about as much logical and ethical sense as most other decrees.

I support anybody's right to have a vaccine. I also support anyone's choice not to have one.

For those who kneel at the altar of science to support their arguments, there's a little naivete there. Just because a study has been published in a peer-reviewed journal doesn't mean its conclusions are correct. Deductive logical reasoning will trump inductive leaps of logic (eg it was true in this population therefore it is true for the whole world).

For those who love statistics though, look for the increased incidence of aseptic meningitis simultaneous with the decrease in polio since vaccines introduced. AM can have similar symptoms to polio. Look at the decrease in mortality and morbidity from most childhood diseases that occurred before the introducton of vaccines for those diseases. Look at the reduction in SIDS in the Japanese prefecture where the vaccination age was lifted to 2yo rather than intje first few weeks and months of life.

No question that there is less incidence of some childhood diseases since vaccination. Lots of questions about how much that change has cost in terms of iatrogenic effect.

Call me old-fashioned or stupid, but I'll put my trust in maintaining a healthy nervous system, eating well, exercising well and thinking well.

And as for whoever said that cancer was natural: look up the incidence of cancer in wolves and other wild dogs vs cancer in domestic dogs. When a species lives according to it's genetics, cancer is almost non-existent.

Maybe we could live a bit more in line with our genetics and see what happens with the rates of infectious diseases (and more importantly the complications of those diseases).

Meanwhile, if you want a vaccine, go for it. But don't call me irresponsible/dumb/etc when I choose not to. I've done my research and critical thinking. Have you done yours?

By the way, I'm crossfitting, but haven't been posting due to time challenges. Hopefully that settles down soon.

Cheers all!

Aaaaayyyyyyyooooooo!!!!!!

Matt_in_Oz #44,

My personal objection is from that of personal rights and ethics not one of "causation".

I don't know if you were referring to me but let me make my own stance known. I have never said it was "MMR" that causes autism. I said the large number of vaccines adminstered all at once (many shots each containing several vaccines each w/ assorted toxic garbage) is a huge stressor taht might act as a trigger for some forms of autism.

To continue,IMO autism is defined by it's symptoms and as such many issues (allergies/reactions/damage/poisoning) may display similarly adn therfore fall under the umbrella of autism. I can certianly see the comparitively large stressors of vaccines being a factor in some cases. True, it may in fact be trigger for such a small number of autism cases as to be lost in statistical noise. Each human characteristic lies on a bell curve and outliers exist for every one.

However you do have several issue with your argument. You are wrong on the rebella "causes" autism, the ONLY study I could find SUGGESTS it's a cause based solely on assocation...and they say specifically "hypothesis", look up what hypothesis means in science, it's an untested guess. You're falling for the whole corralation equals causation yourself.

Also, you can't have it both ways, the one person you mention as showing vaccines were an issue by looking at kids specifically is bad, according to you, for doing so. If you can't experiment on kids how can EVERYONE know then that vaccines are A-Okay.. if you can't test on kids where are the millions of studies that aren't simply statistical corralations?

You also claim "People without a science background, who lack understanding of the topic, misinterpret and mislead the faithful public". Do you have a science background? Do you understand the topic past a few top google hits? This isn't an ad homimen attack, you made the credentials of others an issue, it's therefore fair for you to present your own.

I'd get into the whole potential conspiracy side of the arguement but frankly it's inconsquential to real the ethical/moral issue of people forcing their opinions on others and their familes.

http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com
Body count of vaccine-preventable deaths.

It shouldn't be mandatory for us to do things such as go to jury duty, serve our country and community, prevent and report criminal activity, educate our children, donate to charity and help each other. We should do those things because they are good things to do. It's only when such things are mandated that people start resisting the idea of doing them.

But, the issue isn't whether it should be mandatory to vaccinate your children. The issue is bad science causing people to be misinformed. People who are not properly informed make poor decisions, some of which may have disastrous consequences for the rest of us.

Living in and getting along in a large, complex civilization is always and must be about balancing individual choice against the greater good of society. Total libertarianism is a fantasy and total centrally forced socialism particularly in a diverse society doesn't work, so we're always struggling to find the right balance between those extremes. Vaccination, particularly polio, is an instance where individual choice must be surrendered to the greater good. The science on this is very solid. The reason it is mandated is because there's too many people who couldn't be bothered or wouldn't know about it if it wasn't mandated. If you want your kids hanging out with other kids then get your kid vaccinated and I'm very glad that the other kids my kids hang out with are also vaccinated.

Some of this resistance to vaccination is probably due to the amount of time we've gone without experiencing the horrific effects of polio, small pox, measles and other devastating diseases that have run rampant through our communities, friends and families. This faux indignation against vaccination is mostly another form of decadence..."we don't see any of these disease, therefore there's no need to tell me to vaccinate". That's kind of like the liberal logic of 'crime is down so why do we need so many people in prison'?

The science, history, evidence, public opinion is firmly on the side of vaccination. Those that are against it need to make the case with proper evidence and scientific method versus circumstantial evidence and cries about offenses against personal freedom.

Having said all of that, I am wary of some of the uninformed media hype of things such as the various crisis of flue epidemics. It tends to make us cynical and untrusting when a real crisis does emerge.

OT, but, hey, it's a rest day...

A new study in the Am Jour of Clinical Nutrition (via Brad Pilon) found that the average BF%, measured with DXA, of US women is 40%, average for men is 28%. (The data are from 1999-2004; n is appx 13,000.)

There's an age gradient, of course. Women's BF% tops out around age 55, men's BF% continues to creep up until age 65 or so, at least in this sample. (The race differences aren't as straightforward or consistent across measures and age groups as reported in the media. No surprise there.)

Still. A US *mean* of 40% BF. And, eyeballing the distributions, the fattest appx. 40% of US women carry more than 50% of their body weight in fat. Not that 28% is anything to celebrate, either.

Here's to CF for creating outliers!

The link to the paper: http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/90/6/1457

Lets look at the logic of the situation:
The VAST MAJORITY of MEDICAL doctors and MEDICAL scientists support vaccination while a fringe minority of doctors and alternative healers (many of whom are not even qualified since only ~20 states require licences for alternative healers) are against it. Why do we not support the most intelligent and qualified people in the world on this one? Do you feel that there is some global conspiracy? Are doctors accross the world all meeting in private saying "In order to take over the world, we need to give everyone mind control devices hidden in vaccines, waahahahaha!"

BTW, there was only one study that should a flimsy connection between MMR and autism, with a very small test group, done by Andrew Wakefield 1996. Today, 10/13 authors have withdrawn their support from the paper and hundreds of multinational trials with 100,000s of children across the world have disproven it. Vaccines are safe. Why is there still such a fear of vaccines?

There is a fear because people for the most part are not that intelligent. We think with emotions and not logically, even when we attempt to do so. (Think elections and fear campaigning, or campaigns based around on core issue). We fear what we don't know, and medicine is fast growing into areas where the average person will never have a clue. In the past we trusted institutions, but due to the bumbles of a few (Vioxx; Big Pharma, genetically modified crops; Mansanto, Vietnam; US Govt) there is a growing suspicion for authority. Somehow, scientists got thrown into the mix too. So that leaves the public forced to trust people they suspect are not thinking in their best interests, kinda like the way you feel at the car mechanics. Is this fear ill founded? For big corporations, no. They care only about their bottom line. For physicians and scientists, yes. Physicians don't get kick backs, scientists that ok drugs work for the Govt and don't see patent royalties. We, of all the groups, have the most unbiased opinions since all we want is for you to be healthy and happy.

So what will happen from here. Medicine and science will continue to get more complicated and less understood by the public. People will continue to distrust institutions. Will people continue to distrust their doctors? I hope not, otherwise we'll see a bigger fracture in our healthcare system then we currently have, which is huge.

Hey Coach, feel free to delete the double-post! (50/51)

Sorry, poor iPhone skills.

start reading about vaccinations on Dr. Joseph Mercola's site and then make a decision. (www.mercola.com) Do you people even know what are in vaccines? How long they are tested for? Side effects? MOST of the people in this country are sheep being lead by the media which are prodded along by the CDC.
Instead of believing what you are told by the "unbiased" media, do some homework on vaccinations and many will change their mind. Knowing what i know about shots, i would go to jail before someone injected that shit into me. I'm not anti-vaccine, i'm Pro-information. READ!

Why is crossfit posting uneducated, opinionated articles like the one from Amy Wallace from Wired magazine. It has nothing to do with health and wellness. The body's own immune system is the best chance to fight the flu. Ever wonder why every commercial for each drug has a list of potential bad side effects? If God made it, take it. If man made it, run. Come on cross fit, stay with the game.

Great job by Crossfit HQ. I love all the articles posted here. They go along with the personalities and character of people who crossfit. Thanks for your support of our military and law enforcement, it is appreciated and does not go unnoticed by these communities. Ignore the cry babies who complain about the "right wing" articles. They prove how clueless they are about this great country by their comments. GOD BLESS AMERICA!

Penty,

I respect your views about personal rights and the ethics of vaccines, however I still contend that anyone whose choses to not give their child vaccines because 'they think it's bad' is an idiot. They are doing to harm to the rest of society. It is an odd scenario. I don't think forcing people to get vaccines is right, but the useless media distorts the facts and views of the public. This is unfair, and in some respects, ethically wrong.

Your hunch about 'many vaccines at once' is not a claim you can make without supporting evidence. Maybe it needs to be looked into further, but many scientists think this idea is silly.

Congenital rubella syndrome is considered a cause of autism. Autism spectrum disorders are diagnosed clinically. CRS can cause mental retardation, developmental delay, learning disabilities. Your argument about how it's a hypothesis is weak and redundant. There is no way to run a randomized controlled trial, in which half of the unvaccinated pregnant women are given rubella and half are not, and then followed to see if the kids get autism. The argument is redundant because by avoiding the MMR vaccine to "prevent" their child from getting autism, they replace it with a far greater risk of CRS. Perhaps CRS doesn't cause "autism" as you infer, it only causes a spectrum of developmental delay, mental retardation, etc etc. Same thing, different name.

With regards to the experiments on kids, you can look this all up online. Andrew Wakefield 'recruited' children at his own son's birthday party and gave them unnecessary tests. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC381348/ (WFS) This is a quote from the link:

" “In 1996, and subsequently, researchers in the inflammatory bowel disease study group subjected children to a battery of invasive tests.” These included upper gastrointestinal endoscopy, ileocolonoscopy, and lumbar punctures, he said. “Those procedures are not trivial on consenting adults, let alone autistic children, who must be heavily sedated or even anaesthetised.” "

You can do experiments on children. It just must be approved by ethical boards which have rigorous guidelines/rules/comittees. The studies done looking at the validity of MMR are retrospective. They look back in time, some for many years at many thousands of people. After breaking all people in to two groups, those who got MMR vac adn those who did not, they compare the rates of autism. No change.

I have a bachelor degree in science, a keen interest in public health, a skeptical view, and half of a degree in medicine. In the future, I won't force patients to get vaccinated, but I will quickly dispel myths if that is what's guiding their decision.

I get vaccinated, as I was in the Army (not a lot of choice in the matter) even though I had issues with smallpox, anthrax, etc.

To me, it should absolutely be about personal choice. Which is why govt run health care scares me - what if they fine me for choosing to not vaccinate kids? Will I have higher taxes if I'm fat?

Remember, this is the same government and same peer-reviewed journals that have espoused the high-carb, low-fat diet. And the same scientists that sold the world on global warming.

"Everyone" knows global warming is real, right? "Everyone" knows fat makes you fat, right? "Everyone" knows vaccines cause autism, right?

As a parent of an autistic child and two non-autistic kids, I'd have to see hard evidence that vaccines caused the autism. Just because it's in a peer-review journal doesn't make it right. Just because the govt says so doesn't make it right. Read, study, think, and make a personal choice/decision on what's best for you. For me and my family, we vaccinate.

I wish they would forget the "thought provoking" articles. It would be great to have a short quote or essay from one of the real fire breathers of Crossfit about what motivates them. Or a small bit of advice on how they handle a physical problem. Anything but a long winded article. Just pick OPT, or Jason or any number of our heroes and let them tell us regular fools something we don't know about Crossfit. I'd look forward to that.

Just finished my first 3 days on Crossfit WOD. Thankful for this day of rest.

Great rest day post. Nothing like a good morning discussion.

This article has been the source of massive debate on Wired.com as well. It is definitely one-sided, but you have to remember that most Americans have no understanding of science and statistics (remember, 'math is hard') and fear sells big-time.

Yet the bulk of new innovations and business and job creation in this country come from the math and science crowd.

Christopher #33 nails it right on the head. I am a science writer who spends his days thinking about where bioscience will be in 5 to 10 years and we truly entering a golden age of disease treatment.

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't take care of ourselves and question every move the government, FDA and pharamceutical industry make.

I have hear 3 boys and live in a neighborhood where I hear the anti-vaccine people 'preaching' all the time. They like to use the Jenny McCarty arguments, but the statistics and years of using vaccines and preventing disease don't lie. Unfortunately, they don't want to hear it and their science education ends with Jenny McCarty and her doctor spokespeople.

I do feel very sorry for the parents whose kids have autism, but looking at vaccines as the sole cause is wrong. There are environmental and genetic factors at play, and it gets very complicated very quickly because the body is a complicated machine and what we are breathing, eating and exposed to every day is a dangerous and unknown chemical soup.

We've vaccinated our boys and will continue vaccinate on the regular regimen, but we didn't vaccinate for H1n1 for the reasons cited above. We all ended up getting the flu and lived through it and I believe are stronger for it.

Taking care of yourself (through CF and a healthy diet), questioning everything and informing yourself, is the only way to live. Thankfully, we can still do that in America.

#47 penty
Are you suggesting that the eradication of smallpox was not caused by vaccination?

Nick-wise #55:If JUST education was a solution then no one would smoke cause everyone knows how bad it is. Choice is choice, some will make ones we don't agree with, that doesn't make them uneducated.

Chris,#57, majority doesn't make science it makes politics. Look up lipid hypothesis and squatting below parallel, both are "majority opinions". If you think the majority is always right why are you here at crossfit?

Futher, Chris, the public (who don't agree with you as unintelligent) is poor form, you by defintion are "part of the public" as well unless you are one of those very few doctor/parents or other individuals specifically researching this issue.

Matt_in_OZ #61,: I get your point on a lot about what you said. Since we agree with not making vaccines mandatory I think we're good.

However how is an individual not being vaccinated a danger to society at large? THAT seems like the very type of scare tatics you complain about.

"There is no way to run a randomized controlled trial", there are other ways to prove a hypotheis than this one type of experiment. Further everything you list is a statisitcal study ONLY CAPABLE of showing corralation and not causation, perhaps these shots cause symptoms to manifest SOONER or make severity worse, an issue these studies don't look at.

Even being diagnosed clinically doesn't mean the CAUSE is the same only the symptoms. Example: various things can be wrong with the eye to causes the similar effect of blindness. My point of various causes of autism means that in one individual one thing might have caused in and in another it was something different due to their different predispostions and the broad defintion of autism (which in and of itself is designed to be a "catch-all). There probably a gentic component (evidenced by 90% of those diagnosed with autism are boys) and an enviromental componet based of assorted exposurses. So it most certainly isn't "same thing, different name", like you claim.

Further on your point the MMR shot is "safe", no vaccine is "safe". Every vaccine negatviely effects some % of the population (think there was an example above that SIDS in Japan dropped of sharply afer vaccines were delayed until children turned 2) look it up. Have any studies been done about the synergistic effect of several vaccines being given at once? No, we're dealing with "uninteneded consquences", each shot individually is "safe" but in combination who knows, not you and not really anyone else at this point. (Hence our own decision to spread the shots out over several months rather than in a single visit.)

Harpo #66, No, but no one here is arguing vaccines don't work, the discussion the possibilty of side effects AND all vaccines negatively affect some % of the population.

Do your own research. Do LOTS of your own research. Look at BOTH sides very closely. Keep a non-biased view. When you've done enough to feel comfortable with what you know, congratulations. Make your choice as a FREE American, and know in your gut you did the right thing.

On a Crossfit note..

Does anyone know of somewhere I could order equipment from in Europe? Preferably Italy?

So many people read this article then wonder how could anyone possibly think otherwise.

Of course the general public is stupid, it probably always has been- but scientists these days LIE! Peer reviewed today is like asking your frat brother to grade your homework.

HAS NOBODY HEARD ABOUT THE E-MAILS HACKED FROM SO-CALLED "CLIMATEGATE"???

Real science is largely dead- it's all politics and corruption surrounding funding and agendas.

In short, even we wise and informed citizens have little reason to trust the authorities regarding just about anything.

Personally, I feel sorry for the children of parents who make bad choices on the child's behalf and to the child's cost. Like parents who are Jehova's Witnesses turning down life-saving blood transfusions for their kids, on religous grounds. Should the State intervene? Similar argument for parents declining vaccines. Poor kids go blind or deaf or die because of poor health choices made by idiotic parents. The Wakefield theory was well-intentioned but ultimately discredited.

#68 penty
Then I am afraid I am unclear on your argument. Every vaccine has potential side-effects. Do you have any data to suggest that, for example, the H1N1 or MMR vaccines show a significant causal relationship to side-effects that exceed the background or unvaccinated rate?

Penty, there is not just "one" study or even a few that have disproved any kind of link from vaccinations to autism, there are tons of them, it has been done to death. Quack science that persists in linking the two is insane. It is just not there. end of story.
In addition, the Japanese SIDS-Vaccination study has been widely debunked. The data from the study shows that for one thing, Japanese Dr.s were not very good at diagnosing SIDS early in the 70's when the study began and that two, the rate of SIDS death actually increased steadily after the vaccination age was raised from 3-5 months to 2 years. As a result, Japan revered their decision to delay vaccinations and they are now back to giving them at 3 to 5 months.

The study to which Pentry refers is:
Vaccination: 100 Years of Orthodox Research shows that Vaccines Represent a Medical Assault on the Immune System, Dr. Viera Scheibner, Ph.D.

an excellent rebuttal can be found here
http://www.drwile.com/lnkpages/render.asp?vac_SIDS

#68 Harpo, your first comment simply stated vaccines works, a simple one liner for a vERY complex issue. Look at Graphs of the mortality of infectious diseases( scarlet fever, diptheria, whooping cough, and measles)for the United States and Western Europe from 1800 to 1950, 90% to 95% mortality decrease occured BEFORE the introduction of vaccines. They may work but were they necessary?

Should the govt force vaccinations?
You admit every vaccine has side-effects, some which are life-threatneing, shouldn't people be able to make their own decisions?

As a parent who personally watched their happy, social three year old son withdraw, become moody, stop smiling, lose communication and begin to show very distinct signs of autism within a week of a flu shot I feel you should all read and listen to the other side. Four months later my son was diagnosed with autism. After implementiing quackery such as a Gluten Free diet, supplements and biomedical interventions my son makes improvements daily. He is mainstreamed but needs support.

These parents are very well educated, well read on the subject and know exactly what they are doing. There is a genetic component to vaccine reaction, I saw it tear my son apart and I WILL NEVER GET HIM ANOTHER VACCINE AGAIN!

Read the other side of the issue, talk to parents, chances are they have read a lot more on the topic and are more educated about it than you.

When you see a vaccine take your child right in front of you and feel that pain it isn't fear it's truth! And since I stopped vaccines my son went from chronically sick to rarely if ever sick.

Love Wired Mag, very informative article.

They have looked at tight knit communities such as the Mormons out in Utah who are against vaccinating their kids and the numbers of kids that come down with autism is the same compared to those who did get vaccinated.

I need substantial proof before I let my kids run around unprotected with parasites out their whose parents thought it was a good idea to NOT PROTECT their children.

The article does a nice job of describing an instance of pseudo-science being embraced by well-intentioned, often well educated people. We could easily find other examples. Such as refusal to accept scientific findings on the causes of global warming, and the creationist movement. How about people embracing fitness programs that don’t work, and paying lots of money for it?

The government is NOT requiring H1N1 vaccinations so the protests about government taking control are irrelevant. The issue here is why there is an anti-vaccination movement and why they reject the science and attack the messenger. They’re the ones to watch out for, not some shadowy “big brother” figure.

“Most of American society appears stupid, irrational, and lacks common sense about shot/vaccinations.” –Pete in Sun City.
That is not what this author concludes. She pointedly remarks that many in the anti-vaccination crowd are well educated and some are good debaters. When we call people that reject science “stupid” we miss a really important point. You can be smart and still accept false statements. The key point is how we discriminate between a right answer (like “smoking causes cancer”) and a wrong one (“smoking is safe”). Calling opponents “stupid” is a cop-out. There may be some legitimate reasons why they don’t buy your favored argument, and teasing those factors out—that’s where the bullet hits the bone.

I mean, I feel I’m pretty smart and well educated and all, but I still do stupid things sometimes. My wife recently had to inform me that women don’t have prostate glands. I was like, “What?!?! I mean, men have breast tissue, why don’t women have prostate glands?” Despite many years of education this little tidbit escaped me until the age of 43. What else don’t I know?

“Full of large words and theoretical paraphrasing to confuse the every day population.”—Gillian Reid.
May I suggest using a dictionary and educating yourself? There’s nothing wrong with improving your vocabulary. And since theory is an essential part of science, it’s pretty hard to talk about science without mentioning theory.

“…such a right wing article.” --H1N1. The article points out that the anti-vaccination crowd crosses political boundaries. It’s not a Left v. Right issue, it’s science v. anti-science.

“Are we to trust the same public health officials who brought us the 12-servings-of-wheat food pyramid?” –MB.
Paul Offit didn’t bring us the food pyramid. Different scientist, different issue.

“For example, many women have the genes that are thought to induce breast cancer (BRCA I&II)Is this cause for them to have a mastectomy before diagnosis because they may have a potential? Of course not! Many women have these genes yet do not develop the disease. Lifestyle factors ultimately controls them.”—Ben W. #46.

Ben, I disagree! BRCA-I confers a lifetime breast cancer risk of 80%, and a lifetime risk of ovarian cancer of about 55%. Those are whopping risks! Do you realize how awful these cancers are? Prophylactic mastectomies reduce those risks to about 1-2%. So, in answer to your question, “Is this cause for them to have a mastectomy before diagnosis because they may have a potential…” the answer is clearly, YES, it is a very good reason.
I hope you don’t mind my saying so, but your comment is a good example of a being illogical when evaluating risks.

Also, while you’re idea that keeping healthy can improve one’s natural immunity, keep in mind that our population has no natural immunity to H1N1. So good diet, sleep, etc. won’t help. One need only look at the pandemics (smallpox, influenza, TB, and others) that wiped out an estimated 80-90% of the Native populations of North and South America between 1492 and the 1880s to see what can happen when new pathogens are introduced to a population that lacks immunity.

I have 2 small children who were both delivered at home...no shots for either one of them, ever! My wife and I haven't had a flu shot in over 20years. Took my almost 4 yr old to do a wellness check so she could be admitted into preschool without shots because of a Personal Beliefs..Doctor was amazed at how healthy she was considering she had never been vaccinated. 90% height, 60% weight. My daughter has had on one ear infection, and the cold a few times. My son who is almost 2 has has the cold a few times and that's it. During a recent trip to the in-laws my daughter picked up a 24hr bug on the flight there..she was sick the next day, bug ran rampant through the house, 10 of the 14 people that where staying there got sick. You know who didn't? my non-vaccinated 2yr old son. like some of you have said, do your OWN due diligence, make informed decisions....

for all the "adults" on here who think that parents who don't vaccinate their kids or themselves is idiotic and deserves what is coming to them I have a little advice for you..

PUT the KOOL-AID down because it seems to have gone sour!

Correction to my above post (#77): I meant that prophylactic mastectomies reduce the risk of breast cancer [in BRCA people] to about 1-2% and prophylactic oopherectomies [removal of ovaries] reduce the risk of ovarian cancer to about the same levels.

kris #78
My Great-Grandfather, from the age of 14, smoked 50 a day, untipped, high tar. I never saw the man without a cigarette in his mouth. He was an excellent athlete, and was sprightly almost up to the day he died, at the age of 94.

Please draw your own conclusions about the value of anecdotal evidence.

Harpo
did your Great Grandfather get vaccinated?

RE to Comment #76:

Steve, here's something else that you probably don't know. You've heard of the musical group Mannheim Steamroller, right? Well, if you visit the city of Mannheim in Germany, you'll notice that there aren't that many steamrollers sitting around. Furthermore, if you visit a brothel over there and ask for a "Mannheim Steamroller," they'll have absolutely NO clue what you're talking about.

the original swine flu of 1976...

http://www.capitalcentury.com/1976.html

harpo and for whomever it concerns...my family and I will do what's best for our family. not what the government thinks is best or anybody else for that matter. where is Crossfit.com heading? hmmmm?

kris #81
I think you may have missed the point of my anecdote :-)

#46 Ben W...
i believe you are gravely misinformed regarding breast cancer, what BRCA I and II mean, incidence & penetrance of these genes, indications for mastectomy and what those genes mean regarding breast cancer and the treatment options available to women...
i suggest you research this further.

kris #84
I am not arguing that "the government" should force you into anything, merely that personal anecdotes and a couple of old, poorly-executed and now widely-discredited studies do not form the basis of a sound health policy, either public or personal.

JT #83:
Yeah, right. Just how naive do you think I am? Next thing you'll be telling me the group "Presidents of the United States of America" is not really made up of George Bush, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, and Obama, but, like, it's just some made-up "stage" name or something. I'm heading straight down to the brothel right now for a Mannheim Steamroller! (whatever that is; I hope it's fun)

Jesco #73, that reference does not orignate with, me, I mentioned simply because it had been mentioned above by Tony the Chiro. I suppose I am to blame for not checking every mention of anything mentioned here.

Your nice little rebuttal link's is a blog and the references are all broken or require registeration so it's hard to take seriously.

Further, Jesco, you never addressed your fanaticism about vaccines. To say "science never will" anything is taking science as faith and belief. Until you address your misconceptions about science there isn't much more to say.

J.T.- Your point being what exactly?

When you witness firsthand the devastation Thimerasol, a known neurotoxin, causes your child after it is shot into them because your doctor recommended it then your belief is no longer anecdotal.

The answer lies in the middle, give a theory to prove in a study and it can be proven. When you know the answer you want beforehand it is easy to come to that conclusion and the pro-vaccine side that has pushed increased vaccines causing a rise in autism from 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 150 and 1 in 92 in boys has the answer they want before any study is conducted.

Science adapts and we learn current beliefs were wrong: Asbestos used to be fine for use in schools, Ear infection- shoot up antibiotics and now docs are moving away from that, smoking was fine, the food pyramid was the way to eat healthy, fat is bad for you it makes you fat.

Educate yourself on the anti-vaccine side. My child has never been healthier. The government has been wrong on many ocassions with their "science" on health issues.

Steve #88:

What?! Man, I had no idea about "The Presidents..." and I feel completely cheated. Next, you're going to tell me that the gentlemen Pink Floyd and ZZ Top aren't the founders of the bands who bear those names, and the Blowfish aren't led by Hootie.

What a cruel, cruel world.

Steve Cole #76, why are people who decide against vaccines the ones to watch out for? Get the vaccine for yorself and go about your life.

"The govt isn't requiring H1N1 vaccines." You might want to rethink that. Check out Mass. they recently passed a law saying it was okay for the governer to delcare a state of emergency and FORCE H1N1 vaccines for EVERYONE under penalty of prison withteh ability to remove children from homes. Now whether he uses that power doesn't matter, he now has it.

Steve #90:
"... the pro-vaccine side that has pushed increased vaccines causing a rise in autism from 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 150 and 1 in 92 in boys has the answer they want before any study is conducted."

1. Reference please.

2. Please go and have a chat with Penty about causation vs correlation :-)

#93 Harpo,

I've yet to see you post a single reference (or add sigificantly to the discussion) so you aren't really one to talk.

For what it's worth, these "thought provoking" discussions are a major turn off for me. I come to the crossfit site for workout info and to gain motivation from the achievements of fellow atheletes, not for a series of diatribes on ones ethical responsibility as part of the social contract.

I'm a big believer in science and western medicine. Perhaps I could address some of my own health issues more "holistically", but by and large our impressive longevity and quality-of-life gains of the past century or so have been brought about by big science and big pharma and especially by the life work and insights of no more than a few dozen true geniuses.

And now, here's Kate Smith (the Big But). Having said the above, I believe that government involvement (and the involvement of quasi-governmental agencies) in all of this incredible progress has been a two-edged sword. At its best, it's very good, but at its worst....well, you've got the health care equivalent of the CRU and WarmingGate. It pays to exercise some judgment, to look past stated aims and good intentions, and instead at incentives.

Seems to me that organizations like CDC and WHO, at some level, exist to perpetuate the jobs and grants of people who work at CDC and WHO. And don't even get me started on HHS.

Remember the 80s? When some of the same folks now pushing H1N1 panic were already scaring the crap out of everyone? Like this guy:

http://www3.niaid.nih.gov/about/directors/biography/

Whatever happened to the heterosexual AIDs epidemic, Dr. F.?

Remember West Nile? Legionnaire's? SARS? And the real biggie, bigger than stray nukes in the hand of demented terrorists, bigger even than asteroids headed straight for The Loop: Bird Flu???

My lefty acquaintances think the drug companies are behind all this. They're misidentifying the culprits (and they're mostly sorta nuts, too, but that's a different story). Big Pharma may make some money off of it, but the boys crying wolf are the Big Health Agencies. Every time you see one of their "experts" on the tube make sure you have a gag bag handy, you will puke. Now THERE'S an epidemic worth keeping an eye on.

#95, Mike, great so skip the .com comments every 4th day and you don't have to see it and we don't have to hear you complain about having to see it.

Seems like win-win.

penty #93
I don't believe I have quoted any "statistics" or made any statements that would require a reference. Please let me know details if you think otherwise.

Mostly I have been trying to point out fallacies, such as the confusion of cause and effect, hasty generalization and false dichotomy. Are we to add ad hominem to the list?

More to the point, do you not think a statement such as "... rise in autism from 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 150 ..." requires a reference?

harpo..i didn't miss the point to your anecdote ;)

since you didn't answer the first time, I'll ask again... did your Great Grandfather get vaccinated?

Steve #98
I can't find your incomplete reference using google. However, those numbers appear to originate with Kogan et al (PEDIATRICS Vol. 124 No. 5 November 2009, pp. 1395-1403), which uses NSCH data.

The ASD incidence rate is parent-reported and second-hand, which sets off my warning system. I am a layman in this field, and would welcome the input of any medical or policy experts.

Here is part of the abstract:

"METHODS: The prevalence of parent-reported diagnosis of ASD among US children aged 3 to 17 years was estimated from the 2007 National Survey of Children's Health (sample size: 78037). A child was considered to have ASD if a parent/guardian reported that a doctor or other health care provider had ever said that the child had ASD and that the child currently had the condition. The point-prevalence for ASD was calculated for those children meeting both criteria. We examined sociodemographic factors associated with current ASD and with a past (but not current) ASD diagnosis. The health care experiences for children in both ASD groups were explored."

#97 Harpo. First off there were two aspect I called you on. One you haven't provided references, second you haven't added anything period. Obviously not adding to a discussion mean no required references, take your own hint.

Your "pointed" one-liners in a complex a topic such as this is less than worhthless it's a distraction.

And no, I don't thing "... rise in autism from 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 150 ..." requires a reference. This is the recorded and well documented rise in autism REGARDLESS OF THE REASON and anyone really trying to discuss this issue from either side of this debate knows it readily. That you don't speaks volumes.

As a parent who personally watched their happy, social three year old son withdraw, become moody, stop smiling, lose communication and begin to show very distinct signs of autism within a week of a flu shot I feel you should all read and listen to the other side. Four months later my son was diagnosed with autism. After implementiing quackery such as a Gluten Free diet, supplements and biomedical interventions my son makes improvements daily. He is mainstreamed but needs support.

These parents are very well educated, well read on the subject and know exactly what they are doing. There is a genetic component to vaccine reaction, I saw it tear my son apart and I WILL NEVER GET HIM ANOTHER VACCINE AGAIN!

Read the other side of the issue, talk to parents, chances are they have read a lot more on the topic and are more educated about it than you.

When you see a vaccine take your child right in front of you and feel that pain it isn't fear it's truth! And since I stopped vaccines my son went from chronically sick to rarely if ever sick.

kris #99
I have no idea if my great-grandfather was ever vaccinated against anything. My point is that, despite his history of extremely heavy smoking, he enjoyed good health, lived to a ripe old age and never developed any form of cancer. However, it would be a mistake to draw any conclusions about the health-risks of smoking from this anecdote.

By analogy, attempts to draw conclusions about the risks of vaccinations from the (admittedly heartbreaking) personal stories of parents with autistic children are equally flawed.

I gues rest day equals RANT day....Grow Up everyone geez...if you wanna rant about useless facts that everyone has a different opinion on go to You Tube.....this is rediculous... go to the beach and relax

RE Dave #31:

I agree. When I deployed to Mogadishu Airport in '93, we built benches from pallets; our "barbell" was a camo pole with two full sandbags, one duct-taped at each end. Basically, the sandbags were secured to the pole at the top with the heavy part swinging freely below. Hands down, those were the hardest bench presses that I've ever done, and nobody could do more than five reps...despite the fact that the whole enchilada weighed less than 80 pounds!

At a later unit, the crew insisted on bringing a weight bench and all of the associated items to field exercises so people could "stay in shape." Like you mentioned, a military operation has many items (e.g. ammo cans, water jugs, MRE boxes, etc.) that can be configured into resistance machines. Creativity and a cooperative supply shop that gives you first dibs on DX'd stuff are the foundations of a cost-effective "Operation Phoenix"...and, the more ingenious (read: crude and wobbly) an exercise apparatus is, the more it'll mess you up!

#94, Harpo,

We all get your analogy, you however seems to have missed Kris' point. It makes me laugh.

Very nice, Kris.

#102 penty
I'm interested in understanding the point of view of those who distrust vaccination in general. However, I am not interested in anecdote, unverified claims or ad hominem attacks, and would rather see a reasoned argument.

And you are quite correct, I don't know readily of your "recorded and well documented rise in autism". I am a layman, but one who tries to enter a subject with an open mind and requires good evidence for extraordinary claims.

#106 penty
Please can you explain what point of Kris' I missed?

13:10 5 mile biking TT

Alternative rest day topic, anyone? Herm offered one a few rest days back, and it turned into a pretty solid, productive exchange of ideas. Just saying...

I DO like this type of debate, it at least provides a jumping point for further examination of the presented arguments.

#104, Harpo, "I'm interested in understanding the point of view of those who distrust vaccination in general. However, I am not interested in anecdote, unverified claims or ad hominem attacks, and would rather see a reasoned argument"

I have explained my issue with vaccines above. Since nothing you or anyone has said discounted or invalidated either MY evidence or conclusions on the topic the "reasoned argument" is already there. So you want to know my "point of view", simply scroll up. In a recorded forum there shouldn't be a need to repeat myself.

Tell me what did YOU think the point of kris' question was?

Penty 61,
I will address some of your points now.

You wrote: "However how is an individual not being vaccinated a danger to society at large? THAT seems like the very type of scare tatics you complain about."
Vaccines are a balance between individual risk and the greater good of society. Herd immunity is a real thing. Some people due to concurrent illness, or other reasons, such as personal choice (which is OK as long as it isn't based off stupid myths/lies), don't or can't get vaccines. Furthermore, immunocomprised people, elderly and infants are at a far greater risk than the average joe. Reducing the amount of disease present in a society helps to protect them. Conversely, if more and more people don't get the vaccine, herd immunity decreases. The immunocomprised, elderly and infants will reap a disproportionate amount of the burden. This is not a scare tactic. It is fact. Getting vaccines for yourself, helps out grandma, the newborns and little Johnny with Leukemia.

You wrote:
"
Further on your point the MMR shot is "safe", no vaccine is "safe". Every vaccine negatviely effects some % of the population (think there was an example above that SIDS in Japan dropped of sharply afer vaccines were delayed until children turned 2) look it up. Have any studies been done about the synergistic effect of several vaccines being given at once? No, we're dealing with "uninteneded consquences", each shot individually is "safe" but in combination who knows, not you and not really anyone else at this point. (Hence our own decision to spread the shots out over several months rather than in a single visit.) "

What is safe? Your just arguing here. Is your car safe? Are any cars? What about your oven? Are barbells safe? I could hit you with one, it might be considered unsafe to use like that. This is the type of silly BS that keeps useless arguments going. There is no evidence that spreading vaccines out across many visits is any better either. How many single parents out there, with a couple kids, tough time paying the bills, trying to squeeze in crossfit workouts, want to go to the doc MORE often unnecessarily?

I have a question/request- is there any hard data (preferrably several sources) showing the rates of autism in various types of communities? As in the amish that supposedly have similar rates of autism? I am looking for links to proper studies.

To comment- I agree that we live in an increasingly toxic environment. You can say whatever you want, but the facts FROM MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE are that some limited exposure to synthetic or manufactured chemicals/medicines are beneficial, but longterm exposure to "mundane" chemicals is not.

For example, I have been vaccinated and am glad for it. BUT having changed to organic soaps and toothpaste has cleared up many skin reactions and common gum irritations/tooth sensitivity without question (I had tried various mainstream brands and reacted to many of them despite having no official "allergies") . I accidentally tested this a while back, by regularly using my girlfriend's toothpaste and having overly sensitive teeth- when I realised why, I immediately switched back to using my own organic brand and tooth sensitivity etc. went away.

Now, does this DIRECTLY relate to the Autism/Vaccination debate? NO, but it illustrates my point- Individuals will all react to things differently, and there needs to be MUCH more research on genetic cues vs lifestyle choices before ANYONE can make definitive statements about what causes what.

Oversimplified- Crest or Colgate are good for most, but they make MY teeth hurt, and maybe someone else's too.

I fully realise that one example does not equal another, but the point I am making is that in the last 50 years the western world has completely changed what it exposes the human body to. There is no current data (that I am aware of) which clearly studies all of the average chemical/medicinal exposure of the average westerner (or just American) and relates it to their lifestyle, eating habits, rates of illness, genetic history etc. I can argue that our overexposure to plastics is probably much more harmful than vaccinations, but I can't prove it- and it won't hold true for 100% of people.

As for myself, I try to AVOID "unnecessary" exposure to manufactured things (cold medicines when possible, chemical air fresheners, yearly flu vaccinations) while still accepting that some things (specialized vaccinations for travel, antibiotics) are PERSONALLY worth the possible risk.

ALSO I have to add- "medical journalism" or whatever it is called is ABSOLUTE BS. My long experience with the media on military matters has clearly illustrated to me that the STORY is paramount to the FACTS. Small changes in phrasing can completely change the outline and explanation of a story about military operations, both in perception and actual facts. I cannot imagine how skewed information can become when transferred from very complex and specific medical research to everyday reporting.

Well Penty, the fact is your issues with vaccines have been repeatedly shown to be untrue while your "evidence" supporting their non-use is non existent scientifically.
The site I referenced is a blog, I referenced it because it has links to peer reviewed studies proving that vaccines reduce the rate of SIDS (Hoffman H.J., et al. "Diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis immunization and sudden infant death: results of the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development Cooperative Epidemiological Study of Sudden Infant Death Syndrome risk factors" Pediatrics 1987;79(4):598-611)
If you had read the page that should have been apparent.

Finally, you are right, sort of, about my saying there "never will" be any study refuting the results of myriad studies done on hundreds of thousands of children all of which confirm that there is no link. Anything's possible, a paper could come out tomorrow saying that gravity is in fact a pushing force and not a pulling one. It is highly unlikely but it is possible.

All in all, nothing anyone says or any mountain of data is likely to change your mind, that's ok. I'll just feel bad for your kid if they get really sick because you thought you knew better than Doctors and scientists.

It seems to me that more than a few people hold the following conflicted set of views:

1) Free government-provided healthcare should be a right.
2) Rejecting certain forms of free government-mandated health care should be a right.
3) Free health care for diseases caused by rejecting free government-mandated health care should be a right.

I will preface this by saying that I do not have any relatives or children who have been harmed by vaccines. I do not have stories of vaccinations gone awry. And yet, here I am opposed to vaccinating myself, and in the future my children (when I have).

There are many of you that are using science as the driving factor behind getting vaccinated. The problem with this is many-fold. Firstly, science is not fact driven, it is data driven, and data is not fact driven, it is decidedly people driven. Scientists will themselves tell you that it is not hard to put out a study that indicates whatever end you wish it to indicate. I remember a study in the paper that concluded that sugar did not make kids hyperactive. The test was giving the equivalent amounts of sugar of 15 donuts to some kids, while giving the equivalent of like 30 to others. Those number may be off, but the point is not. Secondly, science is ever changing and ever evolving. So I agree that saying "nor will it ever be" is 100% hypocritical to a "scientific" article. Thirdly, while I am not arguing that vaccines have not shown effectiveness over periods of history, I will say this about the H1N1 vaccine. The H1N1 vaccine was tested and shown to be helpful in the bodies's fight against the H1N1 virus. Unfortunately, these tests were paid for and put out by the very makers of the vaccine. The names on the articles are names that own equity in the pharmaceutical companies putting out the vaccine. That is troubling to say the least.

Next, the H1N1 vaccine was created and ordered in large quantities in the case of a level 5 pandemic (1900's influeza outbreak amounts) and was supposedly going to be reconsidered should the virus not reach those virulent levels. Well, they did not reach those levels and yet the vaccines are still being pushed in the same manner. I myself do not want to be a guinea pig for an untested vaccine for a virus that has not really reached pandemic proportions. H1N1 has also run it's course in the southern hemisphere, as their flu season has passed, and if you look at the numbers the mortality rate from H1N1 is decidedly low.

Next, how can you say that things like vaccines should be mandatory, and that parents should be allowed to fined or imprisoned for not giving them to their kids? We allow parents to serve their kids fast food 3 times a day, which I personally believe is a lot more dangerous than non-vaccination. Just because somebody's opinion goes against the grain of the majority, and in this case western medicine does not give someone the right to take away their children. Not medicating your child through western medicine is not a crime, and yet it treated as one (aka parents that don't want to treat with chemo for kids with cancer).
You can say that science is on the side of vaccinations, but to be perfectly honest, so is lots of money and power. Doctors do in fact receive kickbacks from pharmaceutical companies. Doctors are threatened with their licenses if they try to educate their patients on living healthier lifestyles. We do live in a toxic environment that is being further polluted by "science".
Medicine has it's place in our society, but the focus is not on prevention. We are not taught to lead truly healthy lifestyles, we are not guided towards improving our diets, our stress levels, our sleep times and our emotions. We are guided to vaccinate, pop pills and then pop some more when other symptoms arise.
We crossfit because we are trying to be better, faster, stronger.... to be elite athletes, the best and the healthiest in the world, not because we want all the same problems that most of our society has.

#109 penty
"I have explained my issue with vaccines above".

I've read your posts, and it seems to me that you are exercising a distrust of vaccines that is unsupported by data. Your posts are liberally sprinkled with the words "may" and "might", but very thin on useful references. I am keen to read more on the subject, if you can point me the real data that formed your opinion.

#109 penty
"Tell me what did YOU think the point of kris' question was?"

I clearly stated that I thought he had missed my point. If you think I am mistaken please enlighten me.

From Time Magazine 11/18/02

Any rite of passage that involves jabbing needles into small children is bound to worry more than a few parents. But that doesn't begin to explain why so many moms and dads are convinced--despite mounting scientific evidence to the contrary--that the triple vaccine against measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) causes autism in some youngsters. The latest study exonerating the MMR vaccine comes from Denmark, where investigators looked at the health records of every child born from 1991 through '98, more than 537,000 children. No matter how researchers analyzed the data, there was no difference in the autism rates of children who received the MMR vaccine and those who did not.

The Danish findings, which were published in the New England Journal of Medicine last week, are persuasive for several reasons. Denmark's socialized medical system has generated one of the most complete health records of any country. So the investigators were able to document accurately both sides of the equation: those who were (or were not) vaccinated and those who developed autism. Even when other factors, such as age at vaccination, were taken into account, there was no difference in autism rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated children. There was no clustering of autism diagnoses in the weeks and months after vaccination. There was no difference in the number of diagnoses of other developmental disorders related to autism in the vaccinated and unvaccinated groups.

I agree that vaccines are necessary for serious diseases like Polio, Malaria, etc.
I don't agree with vaccinating for the flu, especially H1N1. There is plenty of evidence indicating that the flu vaccine can cause a very serious manifestation of the illness. I believe allowing your immune system to naturally fight off invading pathogens as they come is the best way to guard yourself against them. I have never been vaccinated for flu and neither have my family members, one of whom is a young teen. We have gotten sick, perhaps with flu, perhaps multiple times, but staying active, eating right, and drinking water has caused us to come away unharmed and stronger.
I believe many vaccines are often used as money making scare tactics and are portrayed as life-saving by the media, when in fact the evidence does not support this.

My two cents-
Medical knowledge is constantly expanding and improving but at the current time the best we can do is based on the "best science" of our time. Current evidence-based medicine indicates that the benefits of vaccination outweigh the risks for both the individual and for society. I try to look at things sceptically but there are limits to my knowledge and for any given subject there is a time and place to concede to those with a greater understanding. I am always surprised when people become too resistant to listen to the experts.

Ultimately, as post #55 wisely points out it still remains a matter of individual choice- try to make it wisely especially when it potentially affects another (e.g. your child, your elderly neighbor, your friend's newborn, the HIV+ person you work with, etc.)

For full disclosure I am a med student who has recently completed courses in immunology, microbiology, and pathology. I am no expert but I do know more than the average joe (after all that is what the education is for- it would be a waste otherwise). I would recommend to any patient/parent that they follow the CDC's vaccination schedule . In my limited clinical experience this topic comes up quite a bit with parents. I have never seen one of my preceptors ever recommend against vaccination but I have never seen any physician force vaccination on anyone either. If you want an honest opinion about vaccination ask your family physician. If you feel that they would lie to you then I would question why they are your physician.

I would like to make one quick side comment to #120- Every family doc I've worked with recommends regular exercise, a healthy diet, etc. Sadly, and far too often this falls on deaf ears. It seems that people are looking for the easy answer. Popping a pill for diabetes or hypertension appears easier than watching what you eat and exercising. Lifestyle modification is the recommended first-line therapy for many common problems but far too often physicians resort to medication because patient compliance is low.

I like to debate the WOD -

I never win, but I ALWAYS try my HARDEST!

Can't wait for tommorrow, Coach; thank you.

#124 said "I agree that vaccines are necessary for serious diseases like Polio, Malaria, etc.
I don't agree with vaccinating for the flu, especially H1N1."

Flu is a tricky thing. During the Spanish Influenza in 1918 the first wave was seen as "just the flu bug." By the end of the first year here in Philadelphia no one was saying that. (see The Great Influenza by John Barry). I've met with many people who work in or for government and have found them to consistently have the public interest in mind - certainly not in the pockets of drug companies or anyone else. They've worked so arduously on this issue because there is no single disease known as the flu and they know that they have to prepare for the worst case. So far with H1N1 we have been blessed with a much less than worst case. Instead of being angry with officials for preparing for the worst on our behalf, we should just be thankful the virus mutant swarm has stayed benign to date.

Does everyone on here have a college education? Using five dollar words and such!! This enlisted swine just wants to WOD!!!

"Linda", not as Rx'd, 26:15. Details there.

After reading a large number of these posts I believe that this argument boils down to beliefs vs. science. Individual results do not apply to a general population.
Kris, while your anecdote is great and I'm really glad your children have not gotten ill and are incredibly healthy, there are risks associated with not getting vaccinated. I'm not talking about the Flu vaccine or even MMR. Would you vaccinate your children if you went over to India? There are diseases over in India that we do not have any sort of immunity to.
I do not get vaccinate for the flu, because I'm not in the high risk category. I did get shots when I went over to India last year, because I did not want to get sick. The living conditions over in India are horrible, the risk of getting many of these diseases are much higher when going to a 3rd world country. We are protected by living in a country where the majority of the people have been vaccinated, which protects all of us. However, where the majority of the population is not vaccinate and living below the international poverty line, the risk of illness is significantly higher. Sorry Harpo, I don't have any references or hard data.

Penty, I'm also in Harpo's boat that I've never seen your numbers before. However, taking a different look at your points, you are basically saying we should not trust scientist, but we should trust you, because everyone knows your numbers are correct. Well, back in the 1800s everyone knew you were crazy if you thought you got sick by germs or viruses.

Science works because the results are published, so they can be tested by other scientists. There are scientists that specifically try to disprove results.

Incidentally the CDC decided to take all of your concerns seriously on the H1N1 vaccine. They wanted to see how effective it was and any other sort of side affect occurred. The results are not out yet.

m/170/5'10"

4 pushups ladders

422 Total - 18:43

2/4/8/10/12/14/12/10/8/6/4/2
1/3/5/7/9/11/13/15/13/11/9/7/5/3/1
2/4/8/10/12/14/12/10/8/6/4/2
1/3/5/7/9/11/13/15/13/11/9/7/5/3/1

Vaccines are good in principle, but the vaccines are not as good as they could be because of lack of market forces to improve their quality. They got rid of the mercury in children's vaccines, but there is still mercury in adult versions (including shots given to pregnant women), as well as adjuvants, preservatives, potential allergins, and other chemicals. It is a big deal to introduce these chemicals directly into an infant's or toddler's body--even as the same chemical is much less serious if ingested.

I would like to see some consumer pushback against the manufacturers to improve their products, but if you take the religious exemption, it is often all or none. So you can't do a reduced amount and still keep your kid into day care or preschool.

Exemptors definitely impose safety risks and economic costs on compliant families. We had to keep our kid out during a pertussis outbreak at her preschool.

Also, all of you should read "The Demon-Haunted World" by Carl Sagan. Check it out.

Great rest day article.

I'm a family physician. I don't work for big pharma. I give shots in my office despite marginal reimbursement, staff complaints, and the enormous paperwork headaches involved. Why? because it is the right thing to do.

Those who attribute health in their unvaccinated child to lack of vaccinations have their correlation and causation mixed up as well. Your child is healthy because my children get their vaccines. Your kid is just riding the herd immunity. Frankly, it greatly upsets me that my child assumes the (negligible) risk of vaccination and in a small way contributes to keeping your child healthy, but that you do NOTHING in the way of assuming the (negligible) vaccination risks that will help keep my child healthy. THAT is what is unjust.

FWIW, the current "H1N1" flu vaccine is not special or unique or untested. The regular seasonal flu vaccine has a strain of H1N1 in it, and it has had for years. Read the label. The only reason there is a separate vaccine is that the seasonal flu vaccine was already in production by the time the need for the vaccine became apparent. Refusing H1N1 vaccine on the grounds that it is untested is irrational.

CFSB week3---bw-202
Deadlift 3x3
315-385-410(PR)

225 15 reps

Comment #2

JT - we are in the midst of the Lumberjack 20 WOD competition. Only about 10 teams of 2 compete. Everyone else cheers their guys on, after they have completed a 4-mile run. No mix of uniforms - Lumberjack CrossFit is in Army PTs, Centurion CrossFit is in civilian PTs as we have civilians competing. The female doing pull-ups is a Soldiers wife and is competing against male Soldiers!

Hari, well played Sir!

Re to Comment #135:

Roger, Don, everybody looks squared away; I guess even in November, a morning four-mile run at a relatively leisurely pace in Texas leaves people soaked! When civilians are allowed to participate in military PT, it's nice to see them try to blend in, huh? :^)

Made up Linda today, details there. Day 16 w a new human being in the house; and I go for my sixth date with that crazy bitch ... below average in headwork!

#Ryan Kaspar,that is NOT "what I am basically saying". I most certianly am NOT anti-science, I defy you to show where I have been so or said so.

You need to reread my primary issue, that of freedom of choice. I don't beleive that vaccines should be mandatory and gave examples of things to consider. If you don't agree, vaccinate those you are responsible for. You should also note my own decision for my second child was to spread out the vaccines into smaller bits given over several months. I did my research and made my call and chose to share my opinions/reasoning/conclusion in mitiagting the "mays" and "mights" I felt were important to consider.

As for any "flack" over saying the current rate of autism diagnosis has grown to about 1 in 100 for the US, it is. I've always been taught that if a fact can be found in more than 3 sources it doesn't need a an attribution. Perhaps researching the field of autism for so long, +10 years, since my first exposure to autism skews my idea of what is general knowledge. However I also get a little tired of people with one or two googled articles thinking they have asome unigue insights or are SMEs to a problem as complex as this one is.

brett, #125, I don't belive a family doctor would knowingly lie but how many still preach the "low fat" diets and not going below parallel when squatting lifestyles and why? I feel the simialr reasons apply for their adivce dealing with vaccines.

ojt, #123, Does the Danish study look at the difference in severity in autism? No, it does not. It could be the indicators parents are seeing is a change in teh severity of the autism or even a change of time of onset, neither of which are looked at in these studies.

#171 Matt in Oz, I agree "herd immunity" is potentially an issue when you put it that way. However two things, if vaccines are safe for infants (who get speical waiting rooms at the doctor's office due to weakened immune systems) why are they not given to these groups? I emnan if it's save for an infant? I'm just asking.

You also asked me "what is safe?" Well, let's take your assumption that the MMR is safe. Is it ALSO just as safe (identical result profile let's say) when as I said each vaccine individually may be "safe" BUT NOW that it is given in combination with 3 more other vaccination sets AT the SAME time? I decided to break the vaccines to be 30-60 days apart.

Matt_in_Oz: "There is no evidence that spreading vaccines out across many visits is any better either."

Saying "no evidence" is meaningless is it hasn't been looked into. AFAIK it hasn't been looked into AT ALL, can you show that it has been? Show me a study where it has been looked into and THEN that there is no evidece?

Matt_in_Oz, "How many single parents out there, with a couple kids, tough time paying the bills, trying to squeeze in crossfit workouts, want to go to the doc MORE often unnecessarily? "

This is beyond the scope of the discussions so I'm addressing it separately. I guess it's how you define "unnecessarily", other than the "single parent" I'm EXACTLY how you describe above and found the time because I did think it was necessary. I made it a priority and did it, others might decide it isn't worth the extra effort and decide differently. Isn't personal freedom and responsiblity great?

Penty - I didn't actually say you were anti-science, I was saying many of the points on this board were. But I did go out and find that number you were talking about. It's from a 2007 CDC report that mentions the 1 in 150.
The article actually discusses a study that the subject of the article did about the number of vaccines you can receive at a time safely. 10,000, or over 150,000 through a lifetime.

to anyone who thinks they need a flu shot just google "redskins cheerleader vaccine" and if you still want to take that risk don't say i didn't warn you.

#143 Ryan Kaspar, you again post that you think my some of my points are anti-science, again I say tell me SPECIFICALLY which ones (hint: this is a request for references). Anyone can stand around and point and say “what you said is anti-science because you don’t believe like me!” Frankly until you prove some proof this is nothing more than an ad hominem attack.

I'd have to ask for any source saying we can receive 10,000 existing vaccinations at one time. Now I vaguely remember seeing a source some time ago stating it may be true we can be exposed to something like 10,000 PURE bacterial/virus samples at a time and still create immunity but it referred to the human body’s ability to create antibodies and NOT any other logistical factors. Frankly it's a bit of a ridiculous claim, if remotely practical why aren’t all the vaccinations that USUALLY give at one time, which are currently at most 4 shots for not more than 20 “diseases”, NOT given as a single shot? --Because there is a minimum amount of different chemicals, preservatives, and assorted extras needed to sustain each of the various diseases being immunized for that have various drug interactions with each other and so CAN’T be mixed. Now if they can’t be mixed externally why do think YOU could/should be internally?

#143 Ryan Kaspar/penty #145 my sentence:"Frankly until you prove some proof this is nothing more than an ad hominem attack."

should read "Frankly until you provide some proof this is nothing more than an ad hominem attack."

Just wondering what is with the reflective belts?

I've got a general rule, if the govt wants you to do something don't do it, ditto if a newspaper comes up with a story backing up the govt's case.

Penty, RTFA. My second comment about the amount is in the article. He did the thought experiment to answer how dangerous one/three vaccines were. If I had to guess why they couldn't be mixed outside the body it has to do with concentrations. You put it in the body and suddenly it's floating around in 5L of blood. Also there probably is concern that mixing to vaccines would eliminate the benefit because the viruses would kill each other.

Also #74 is a case of anti-science. I also didn't say you were being anti-science. You inferred that.

I have had too many rest days this past week so I did my own made up workout on a Rx rest day.

200 single jumps ropes for a warm up. 3 sets of 15 air squats.

400 meter run
25 push ups, 5 dips, 15 pull ups, 20 sit ups.
400 meter run
25 push ups, 5 dips, 15 pull ups, 20 sit ups.
400 meter run
25 push ups, 5 dips, 15 pull ups, 20 sit ups.
400 meter run

Total time 18:27

I definately felt the time off!!!!!!

I doubt anyone is still reading this thread but would like to state that the reason you do not give all of the vaccines at one time is because the body must illicit a strong enough immune response to the contents of the vaccine. The stronger the response the better the immunity. This is why children get booster shots and why they put adjuvents in vaccines that stimulate the immune system to provide a greater response. By trying to put everything in one vaccine you diminish the bodies ability to identify and produce a strong response to any one thing. So we spread it out and give the body time to respond.

People posting things like, "viruses will eat each other" or they'd have to put in more preservatives/chemicals, appear to discredit their argument because that's not the case.

Ryan Kaspar, don't get all "RTFA" when you didn't link to it and all you say is a "2007 CDC report".

Second of all a "thought experiment" means crap in science, it's not even at the level is a hypothesis and this is your "evidence" vaccines are safe give in large quantities? Your own thoughts on the matter are 100% unresearched drivel. An infant doesn't contain 5 liters of blood, viruses don't and wouldn't eat each other in vaccines, what the heck are you talking about do you even know? The FACT you think there are reasons they shouldn't be mixed shows you can't vaccinate for 10,000 a once. (Thank for proving my point however wrong you went about doing it.)

Tell you what, get halfway educated on this topic, email me and we'll talk.