November 7, 2009

Saturday 091107

Rest Day

gym-ina-box-th.jpg

Enlarge image

Chris Miramontes, "Gym in a Box"


"DT" by CrossFit Los Angeles - video [wmv] [mov]


"God is great: Last words of Fort Hood gunman before being shot by police heroine" by David Gardner and Liz Hazelton - Mail Online

Post thoughts to comments.

Posted by lauren at November 7, 2009 8:52 AM
Comments

I want that!
Road trippin' with a gym in my trunk sounds pretty sweet to me.

Comment #1 - Posted by: AllisoNYC at November 6, 2009 4:16 PM

I thought all CF's are gyms in a "box"

Comment #2 - Posted by: CalmLikeaBomb at November 6, 2009 4:21 PM

Where can I buy that Gym-in-a-box??!!

Comment #3 - Posted by: PAINisTEMPORARY,PRIDEisFOREVER at November 6, 2009 4:31 PM

is that an option on all new Tundra's?

Comment #4 - Posted by: kettlehell at November 6, 2009 4:34 PM

Dear Santa - Herm& I have been very good this year and would like a Gym--in-a Box pretty please.

Comment #5 - Posted by: Cookie at November 6, 2009 4:41 PM

It's my gym in a box.

Comment #6 - Posted by: Wes at November 6, 2009 4:51 PM

Major Nidal Malik Hasan did not say "God is great." He said "Allahu Akbar!" as he fired on innocent people.

"God is great" is an improper translation, because "Allahu Akbar" speaks to no other deity than the Muslim one. Of course, Islam is in no way responsible.

Comment #7 - Posted by: Steve at November 6, 2009 4:55 PM

That's not the God that I know.

Comment #8 - Posted by: Suzanne at November 6, 2009 4:58 PM

Wow, I'm used to taking my rings and jump-rope, (and occasionally a kettlebell) on the road, but Chris, that is simply ingenious. Nice to see something G-rated "in a box" for a change of pace, (no disrespect to the great Andy Samberg!).

Comment #9 - Posted by: mas 52/M/150 at November 6, 2009 4:58 PM

Countless atrocities have been committed over the millennia in the name of some deity/religion or another. Let us not blame said deity/religion, for it has ever been that those who do this do so in mistaken belief. Let us grieve. Let us learn.

Comment #10 - Posted by: bingo at November 6, 2009 5:03 PM

I would love to have that kind of junk in my trunk.

Comment #11 - Posted by: Playoff Beard at November 6, 2009 5:15 PM

The fact that he's a muslim is totally irrelevant. That is in no way a factor in the murder of 11 soldiers. He's gotta be a pyscho!

Wait wait.. he's a psychiatrist himself? umm..

He has PTSD!

Wait wait...he's NEVER deployed.. umm

watch the mainstream media squirm as the fact that he's a muslim screaming Allah Akbar is barely mentioned....

Comment #12 - Posted by: Paul Szoldra at November 6, 2009 5:33 PM

#4 cookie: Honey, I think Santa will deliver early! ;)

Regarding this mass-murdering former Army Major: Our military needs to tighten up on it's members! While freedom of thought and speech is one of the tenants this country was built on, our military needs to be a dictatorship, and it is a VOLUNTARY role. Don't allow people like him serve in my Army. There is NO room for enemy sympathizers.

(BTW I'm a former Army Infantry Company Commander, AKA Cake Eater/BN CDR's bitchboy.)

Comment #13 - Posted by: Herm at November 6, 2009 5:36 PM

Unfortunately this wasn't committed by missing the "true" teaching of Islam. This was right in line with the Koran and with Muslim teaching. You can read it in Surah 9. Or just go online and type "searchable Koran" into google. University of Michigan has a good one.

We have an FBI "searching for the motive," and a president warning us "not to jump to conclusions." Insanity.

Comment #14 - Posted by: MurphIZ at November 6, 2009 5:36 PM

1. Cut a hole in the box.
2. Put a gym in that box.
3. Go and open the box.

...and that's the way you do it :)

Comment #15 - Posted by: Ben at November 6, 2009 5:38 PM

Best picture ever posted on the mainsite!

Comment #16 - Posted by: Chris S. at November 6, 2009 5:43 PM

HAHAHAH! Ben, that's awesome. _ in a box is the greatest song ever written. Gotta love SNL.

Comment #17 - Posted by: AllisonNYC at November 6, 2009 5:59 PM

very impressive times on a very tough workout.

Comment #18 - Posted by: ken c at November 6, 2009 6:13 PM

#6 Steve, so, if you were a Christian who only spoke Arabic how would you say God is great? I'll give you a hint, it's two words and they both start with the letter "A".

Comment #19 - Posted by: Jesco at November 6, 2009 6:23 PM

Steve, #6 - he did in fact say "God is Great"; he just happened to say it in Arabic. And since Islam is an Abrahamic religion, Muslims do in fact worship the same god that Christians and Jews worship - albeit from widely varying perspectives. (Just because you only see one side of a mountain doesn't mean that's the only way to look at it.)

Of course, any good Muslim - his own family included - would tell you that his actions are insane, ungodly, and despicable.

Now if you'll excuse me I need to cut a hole in a box and put my gym in it.

Comment #20 - Posted by: Dan at November 6, 2009 6:41 PM

Jesco,

Two different deities. One is God, one isn't.

Comment #21 - Posted by: Steve at November 6, 2009 6:42 PM

Dear Glassman,
Been doing crossfit for about a year. Former Globo gymer. If you are the inventor of crossfitting then why do the seperate affiliates create their own Workout of the days? I understand the constantly varied concept, yet is there any science behind your programing? Are the workouts randomly selected? Who programs the main page WODS? Which program should I follow? Sincerely interested.

Comment #22 - Posted by: hall at November 6, 2009 6:42 PM

Hall (#21) - I'm not Glassman but I think I can help you out with this. If you go to an affiliate, and the trainers there are certified, do the WOD they tell you to (with your input taken into consideration, of course).

If you're doing CF on your own, then you get to pick and choose. I'd recommend sticking with the main site's WOD unless you have specific goals that the main WOD don't address. For example if you want more focus on endurance, you'll want to add the CF Endurance workouts onto the daily WOD.

Without knowing anything more specific about your situation, that's the best you're going to get =) If you have more specific questions, you can ask them on the forum. There are a lot of friendly folks there who will be glad to help you out.

Steve (#'s 6 and 20) - pretty much every religious scholar on the planet disagrees with you on this one. Muslims, Christians and Jews all worship the same god. You all worship him in different ways, and in a lot of different languages (Christians alone speak every language on the planet) and you personally may not think that Muslims are "doing it right", but that doesn't change the fact that you're worshiping the same guy. If you don't believe me, ask one of your religious leaders. (Make sure they graduated from a seminary or other approved institution of religious study first, though.)

Comment #23 - Posted by: Dan at November 6, 2009 6:53 PM

Thank you Bingo (Comment #9)

I sincerely hope everyone reads your comment and takes its wisdom to heart before condemning an entire faith.

Comment #24 - Posted by: Kath at November 6, 2009 6:53 PM

#21 hall:

Please refer to the CrossFit Journal article written by Coach Glassman on programming. This will explain the method behind the workouts. They are not random, and you will see once you read the article:

http://journal.crossfit.com/2003/02/theoretical-template-for-cross.tpl (wfs)

Comment #25 - Posted by: Paul Szoldra at November 6, 2009 6:56 PM


Congrats, Firefighter Chris! You finally made the mainsite!

Mike
www.valleycrossfit.typepad.com

Comment #26 - Posted by: Mike in L.A. at November 6, 2009 7:03 PM

I grieved and learned all I needed to on 9/12.

Comment #27 - Posted by: Steve at November 6, 2009 7:06 PM

Hey Steve, congrats on inventing the time machine. How is the 13th Century, anyway?

Comment #28 - Posted by: Benny1 M/40/74"/220 at November 6, 2009 7:16 PM

--God bless everyone at Ft. Hood. This must have been a horrid nightmare.

Pray for everyone at that base and their families this weekend.

I know God is great--humans are as terribly flawed as they are courageous, noble and divine.
step 1. 'don't put God in a box'
step 2. 'cut a hole in your socks'
step 3. 'in other's feet a mile wa-aalk!'

Comment #29 - Posted by: JOE at November 6, 2009 7:31 PM

Bingo - yes, exactly. Paul

Comment #30 - Posted by: Apolloswabbie 6'2" 205 45 yoa at November 6, 2009 7:33 PM

Re: Christians/Jews/Muslims worshipping the same God. It's a tough question, but here's my take:

While they have the same 'background' in the OT, what they make of the OT is determined by what has come after. The Qur'an and the NT hold up two very different gods.

Christians worship a god who is trinity. A 'part' of that trinity is Jesus Christ. A Muslim certainly wouldn't agree that they worship the same god as a Christian does. Muslims and Jewish people see Christians as idolators for worshipping JC as God.

As for 'God is great' - we can't interpret for ourselves what he meant by it. That's PoMo rubbish. Being a Muslim, he obviously meant his god, Allah. Not to mention that the phrase itself has a long history and context of referring to the Muslim god.

Comment #31 - Posted by: TimE at November 6, 2009 7:36 PM

Munley is a great sheepdog. It's just too bad the wolf, Husan was not put down......

Comment #32 - Posted by: cheeks at November 6, 2009 7:42 PM

#31 - There will be plenty of time for that, especially if he's tried before a court martial.

Comment #33 - Posted by: Freeman at November 6, 2009 7:48 PM

7:30 is a good DT. My best is 8:30, time to get back on it. DT vs me tomorrow!

Comment #34 - Posted by: Nolan at November 6, 2009 7:55 PM

Found this in a Google search:
"First, Islam is not strictly a religion, but a theistic/political/social/military movement with roots deep in ancient Arab tribalism and practices. Theistically, it is an amalgam of ancient Judaism, early Christianity and the polytheism of the ancient Arabs. Politically, it is fascism and claims the whole world (Ummah) to itself exclusively. Socially, it is male dominated to the extreme and appeals mostly to uneducated and socially displaced males. Militaristically, it is aggressive and uses the term "army of god" in a very real sense with the intent of driving the "infidel" from the face of the Earth."

And this:
"Allah" originated as "Hubar", also known as "al-ilah" (from which the final name was derived), an ancient moon-god worshipped by various tribes extant on the Arabian Peninsula and in the surrounding lands. "Hubar" was the chief god in the Arab pantheon. Other deities represented the Sun, stars and such things as rocks, trees, bodies of water, etc.
-------------------------------------

I'm of the persuasion that the god responsible for the Islam faith is not the same God spoken of in the Bible. Jesus of Nazareth was certain He was the ONLY Son of God, and even claimed to be equal with God. Islam teaches that Jesus was a good person, and a lesser prophet to Muhammad. But if Jesus was good, then one must insist He always spoke the truth. He claimed to be God, and accepted worship as God. If He was not, then He is not good, but a lunatic. I personally believe He is God incarnate, and all other "religions are absolutely false." If all religions lead to God, then Jesus is a liar.

John 14:6-11
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us."

Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.


In the last Book of the Bible Jesus says this:
Revelations 21:6-8:
And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
--------------------------------------------


Here Jesus, after He had resurrected, received worship from Thomas as God. No other religion has such claims:

John 20:26-29:
“And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace to you!" Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing."

And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

--------------------------------------------------

If Jesus was not God, but rather an angel, or “messenger” sent from God, or even just a prophet as Islam claims, then He would not be worthy of worship, and he would have rebuked Thomas for making such a statement as: “My Lord and my God.” Also note how God’s messenger rebukes John when John attempts to worship the angel:


Revelations 22:8-10:
Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. Then he said to me,” See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."

Comment #35 - Posted by: Greg/M2 at November 6, 2009 8:00 PM

From what I've heard the past day how in the heck did this guy stay in the military? And what knucklehead would send him to one of the war zones? Was someone playing a very cruel joke on him?

Comment #36 - Posted by: tracy at November 6, 2009 8:05 PM

Funny, as a soldier deployed to Iraq, whenever we walk into the christian churches they yell and hollar "Allah Akbar" and even have it written above some of the gigantic crosses. Yet everyone insists that this phrase is Muslim, instead of Arabic. It belongs to a language, not a religion.

I am also a soldier from Fort Hood, and they should torture that piece of trash to death. To open fire on your own people is despicable. And only because you are scared of deploying. He needs to be put down like a rabid dog.

Comment #37 - Posted by: Doc at November 6, 2009 8:12 PM

Thanks for that clarification Doc :-)

Comment #38 - Posted by: TimE at November 6, 2009 8:19 PM

Hasan is an American citizen born here in the good ol' US of A. English is his first language. IF he wanted to say "God is Great," he would have, in his native tounge. Instead he elected to say "Allah Akbar," praising the muslim god in what is at least his second language.

I'm disturbed by the MSM's immediate push to blame the military, i.e.-he was worried about pending deployment or he was harrassed after 9-11. How many 100's of thousands have deployed before him and never been driven to a terrorist act on their unarmed, defenseless brothers in arms? Picked on? Sure, I bet everyone was really giving the MAJOR with a PhD a hard time and getting away with it.

How 'bout this? This devoutly muslim man (his family's words), in pursuit of his 72 virgins decided to commit his own personal jihad against the very soldiers that he'd sworn to lead and protect as an Officer in the US Army.

The President--who had to "shout out" to the Native American convention organizers before he could get around to expressing his concern about the murder of 13 of his soldiers--doesn't want us to rush to judgement. What is there to rush to? The facts are pretty clear from where I sit.

Thank God (not allah) that there were men and women willing to rush to the sounds of the guns to aid their brothers and sisters and put this TERRORIST down.

Comment #39 - Posted by: Denver Sheepdog 35/5'9/161#/CFT=892 at November 6, 2009 8:31 PM

Sgt. Kim Munley is a hero and true American. I hope all the men (anti-women types) in the middle east take note that a female cop brought him down.

I wonder... does she crossfit?

Comment #40 - Posted by: KarenH at November 6, 2009 8:36 PM

Thanks Dan and Paul for your reply. Maybe I'm looking too deep into crossfit. Maybe crossfit is simply just training. My question is: How can you compare a person with the expertise and knowledge that Greg Glassman self proclaims, to a person who spends $1000.00 to attend a level 1 cert., then decides to open a box and post a WOD? It seems to me that Greg Glassman's crossfit.com should be considered the only workout of the day. Any other workout is simply an imitation and should not be considered crossfit. By telling somebody to go to an affiliate and do whatever workout they tell you discredits anything that Coach Greg Glassman has created.

Comment #41 - Posted by: hall at November 6, 2009 8:40 PM

#s 7 and 9 for example...

i am glad that this board is open to the mention of God. God bless america. God bless those fighting for us. God bless our families. I thank and praise God daily for what he does for us, even those who don't know or respect him. I am a missionary trying to spread God's love to those addicted to crack cocaine in costa rica. Burdens my heart. I know the last chapter in the book. We will prevail.

#37 thank you.

God is good, but one must have the proper perspective to know and believe that statement. Sometimes we have to fight for peace. Christ himself knew and still knows that.

Comment #42 - Posted by: MoisesDelMar M/26/165/5'8'' at November 6, 2009 8:43 PM

well said DENVER and Dan good luck finding a muslim to say it was despicable...kudos to the civi lady cop who dropped his sorry a**

Comment #43 - Posted by: Dave at November 6, 2009 8:46 PM

Hall,

are you Parker?

some of your points are good ones, but there's something about your tone that suggests you're here to cause trouble.

Comment #44 - Posted by: nick in sydney m/37/6ft/183 at November 6, 2009 9:04 PM

Nick,

No, I'm not Parker. Not here to cause trouble, just would to discuss the questions posted.

Comment #45 - Posted by: hall at November 6, 2009 9:10 PM

Muhammad Atta said: "Shout, 'Allahu Akbar,' because this strikes fear in the hearts of the non-believers."

Taken from a letter written by Muhammad Atta to his co-conspirators entitled "Instructions for the last night"

Yet ANOTHER Misunderstander of that Religion of Peace.

Comment #46 - Posted by: tjo at November 6, 2009 9:12 PM

As of right now there is no evidence that Muhammad Atta shouted "Allahu Akbar" while committing those horrific acts. There is a lot of speculation why he did it, I would like to offer up why I think he did. Plainly he is an outright a$$hole. Lets not be reduced to racism. Remember, this country is the melting pot of the world. My deepest sympathies to everyone touched by the actions at fort Hood.

Comment #47 - Posted by: joe c at November 6, 2009 9:48 PM

#11 Paul - Just because someone is a psychiatrist, doesn't mean they can't have, or develop, psychological problems. Some psychiatrists actually go into that field, in part, to try to figure themselves out.

#41 Dan - The killer's family has said it was despicable. It's not true or fair to say that Muslims wouldn't condemn this.

I think we can all agree that this is horrible and tragic, and we can be proud of those who reacted so quickly and bravely in stopping him, but please don't spread the blame beyond the shooter until we know more.

Comment #48 - Posted by: Sophia at November 6, 2009 10:16 PM

You do not have to GO to war to get PSTD. You just have to experience a very traumatic and horrific event that can give you this condition. Yes it is more often diagnosed in post war vets, but women who are raped, children who are abused and victims of hate crimes can to have PSTD.
Now am not defending this guy. I think we should let his wounds fester until he gets gangrene and dies of a slow and painful death. Causing him to have to deal with such horrendous pain that he might have some what of a clue on how he has left the victims and there families.

Comment #49 - Posted by: Buela at November 6, 2009 10:26 PM

First off, everyone affected by this tragedy; I feel deep, sincere sorrow for you and your extended family. That being said....


It's funny how the media translates the phrase so that the average American will take it as "another extreme Christian" who takes his' religion to far.

If the real newas was reported than the ACTUAL phrase would be in the headlines for the American public to make their own assumptions.

That being said, the Lord's will will/be is done in every aspect of every day. He knew this was going to happen and will use this to His benefit. God Bless.


Kyle

Comment #50 - Posted by: KFlynn at November 6, 2009 10:29 PM

#45
Here is your evidence regarding Atta.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/sep/30/terrorism.september113

What difference does it make if most muslims would condemn this? There are a billion muslims on the planet. 10 percent, 1 percent whatever.

Comment #51 - Posted by: MS at November 6, 2009 11:30 PM

Some other intellectual Gems from the front page of this highly reputable online publication:

"How was it for me? Woman suffers amnesia after sex with her husband"

"Couple flee to save their unborn baby from social workers"

This is a shock-value article in a rag mag. I'm confused about the rationale behind posting a link to this story when the majority of the readers are military sympathizing christian americans. Stimulate intellectual discussion? Really?

Comment #52 - Posted by: Francis at November 6, 2009 11:37 PM

There are many Muslims who serve in the United States Military Honorably. I served side by side with a Surgeon in Iraq who also happened to be in surgical training in NYC on 9/11. He was called every despicable racist name the day of the attacks while treating injured patients. He never once questioned his desire to serve his country (USA) even after being called ignorant names by his fellow countrymen on 9/11.
So for those of you that have not served side by side with a Soldier, who is Muslim, please think before you type.

Comment #53 - Posted by: Kevin at November 6, 2009 11:56 PM

MurphIZ: The first discourse of Surah 9 of the Qur'an was revealed at a time when the Qur'aish, the prophet Muhammed's tribe who had cast him out & thereafter declared war on him, broke a treaty between themselves & the Muslim community in Madina (the treaty of Hudaybiya). Consequently the references to the 'polytheists' is to the treacherous Qur'aish, not non-Muslims in general.

As with any scripture, it is important to put it into context.

Comment #54 - Posted by: Abu Aqilah at November 7, 2009 12:13 AM

Sci-fi author Jerry Pournelle on events at Ft Hood ... http://www.jerrypournelle.com/view/2009/Q4/view595.html#Friday

Comment #55 - Posted by: RM3 Frisker FTN at November 7, 2009 12:38 AM

1. First principle of military leadership: Know your people. I think maybe somebody dropped the ball on this one...
2. Tragic event, but I think the 2nd and 3rd order effects of this would have been far worse if this had happened once he got to Iraq/Afghanistan.
3. I hope everybody enjoys spending their precious time speculating about his motives and the context of phrases uttered by the killer... but I think that's why we have prosecuting attorneys.

Comment #56 - Posted by: Justin D. _ 30/M/6'/205 at November 7, 2009 1:10 AM

One cannot win a fight without identifying the enemy. Neo-liberal hairsplitting certainly will not help us!

Comment #57 - Posted by: Ymer at November 7, 2009 1:23 AM

#55

"More dead in the name of that God."

Than what?

Comment #58 - Posted by: TimE at November 7, 2009 3:14 AM

I pray for all involved in the Ft Hood tragedy.

The misplaced anger in some of these posts today is dis-heartening. I have had the same experience as #51 Kevin and couldn't have said it better.

#55 Joker, how is it the same God? If two people were having a conversation about me, and one said..."Oh yeah Aush..that white guy that lives in San Diego, with the glasses..." and the other said..."No, Aush the black guy that lives in San Diego, with the glasses..."

I submit they would be referring to two COMPLETELY different people...even though, some of the facts were the same...there was an empirical difference that leads any logical person to realize, they don't know the same Aush.

Comment #59 - Posted by: Aush at November 7, 2009 3:33 AM

Hall,
Greg Glassman has approx 30 years experience as a coach, obviously a new box owner isnt going to have that kind of experience but the only way they will learn is to do it for themselves. At the Level 1 cert they go into programming and there is a method behind the constantly varied random principle.
There are many ways to skin a cat and if you look at some of the affiliate sites they do things differently but most, if not all, get good results.

Comment #60 - Posted by: Gerard at November 7, 2009 3:52 AM

I have been doing CF for 6 months and this is the only thing I have ever stuck with. I love it, I dont feel like myself if I miss a day of CF (of course not restdays). I lost 20# since then I am a whole lot stronger and fitter. Thanx Coach.

P.S. my wife loves my new body, ha.

Comment #61 - Posted by: BlackCatX-Fit at November 7, 2009 4:30 AM

Mornin'

On the Affiliates Blog this week we had a spirited discussion of the relative merits of running as a part of the programming of WOD's at CF Boxes. Jeff Martin of Brand X noted that his/their general philosophy is that he/they hate running so much that they learned how to fight so that they would never have to run away. Always makes me chuckle when I read that.

But as the programmer for the Brand X Affiliate he says that they now run quite a bit in their WOD's. His rationale? Some times you need to run TO the fight. Here's to Sgt. Munley, who by all accounts not only ran TO the sound of the fight, but stayed in the fight despite her injuries and won.

Comment #62 - Posted by: bingo at November 7, 2009 5:10 AM

Post in the filter @ 8:10...

Comment #63 - Posted by: bingo at November 7, 2009 5:10 AM

joe c-

Here's a copy of Atta's supposed letter as posted on frontline/PBS.org. The side bar details where and when it was found as well:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/network/personal/instructions.html

But let's say the letter isn't valid...you still miss the point:

Somewhere between 10 and maybe 100 million (that's 1 to 10%) misunderstanders of Islam seem to think he said it. I know I could, and I'm guessing you could as well, find many videos of these misunderstanders chanting "allahu akbar" while cutting off heads, stoning individuals, removing women's breasts and generally doing things that those of us living in the 21st century disagree with. Why do so many misunderstand this religion of peace?

As for your racism comment. What race is Islam? Disagreeing with, questioning of and or not believing in a religion is not racism by any stretch of the imagination.

Comment #64 - Posted by: tjo at November 7, 2009 5:28 AM

God is great, it's humans that suck.

Comment #65 - Posted by: sam at November 7, 2009 5:30 AM

#39 Hall u are confusing yourself.

The affil may not have the space/gear to do the .com WOD. The affil may not like .com WOD programming. The affil may program to its clients' needs. The affil may be better at programming than .com. That's what we hope happens-someone takes Coach's stuff and one ups it to improve human performance. In IT it's called an open source model. Coach has neither the need or desire to control or limit affil programming. If you do due diligence you can learn to sort out what might be good/bad programming. Good luck in your training.

Comment #66 - Posted by: apolloswabbie at November 7, 2009 6:04 AM

Chris-
GREAT PIC! I've brought bars/plates to a local track when doing some WODS, but yours is the full deal.
Matt

Comment #67 - Posted by: mattyb at November 7, 2009 6:05 AM

kyle: well put

63: well put

Comment #68 - Posted by: MoisesDelMar M/26/165/5'8'' at November 7, 2009 6:09 AM

#51, Kevin, writes,

"There are many Muslims who serve in the United States Military Honorably."

Absolutely! But Faizul Khan was never one of them.

He was a member of the Board of Directors of the Islamic Society of North America, a radical Wahhabi organization. This is the whole “cut off the heads of non believers” crowd, we are at war with.

For civilians, these beliefs are protected under the First Amendment, but at the very least, they should have kept him from being an officer in the United States military. Prior to the shootings, it was pretty clear that the man was disloyal. It difficult to believe that the Army couldn't see this.

Comment #69 - Posted by: Hari at November 7, 2009 6:28 AM

Can there be a hero WOD created for Sgt Kim Munroe?

Comment #70 - Posted by: pb at November 7, 2009 6:30 AM

Make that Sgt Kim Munley...

Comment #71 - Posted by: pb at November 7, 2009 6:31 AM

Make that Sgt Kim Munley....

Comment #72 - Posted by: pb at November 7, 2009 6:32 AM

Sgt. Munley survived her ordeal. "Hero" WOD's are for those who have fallen.

Comment #73 - Posted by: bingo at November 7, 2009 6:43 AM

RE to Comment #21:

Paul, thanks for the link to a very informative CFJ article. Just in case I missed something, and I apologize in advance if I'm wasting anybody's time, but...burpees are considered to be a gymnastic (G) element, correct? I believe this was mentioned at my Level 1 cert, but I want to make sure before I start freestylin' my garage gym programming ;^)

Comment #74 - Posted by: J.T. at November 7, 2009 6:48 AM

This is exactly what I worried about. Some psycho commits a horrible act, but because he is Muslim the ignorant focus on that. How about the guy in Orlando? More reasons to stay angry at Latinos? Like millions haven't been murdered over the centuries in the name of all religions. Better go after the muslims because "they ain't like us." Tim McVeigh was white, so we don't focus on any of his religious motivations. How about any white killer in the US? They are no different than this guy, but some idiots are going to imply differently. "Two different deities. One is God, one isn't." Stupid. This is the redneck mentality that enrages me. You know this, huh? You've got the universe all figured out, right? Fricking racists. Christianity is not innocent at all. I suppose you think God is an american too. The only thing separating you from "them" is the blind luck of where you were born.

Comment #75 - Posted by: chris at November 7, 2009 6:57 AM

Keep the religious crap off here please.....the guy snapped, plain and simple. You people that believe in this "almighty" garbage are the ones spreading hate and fear throughout the world anyway. Use your brains people. There is no god.

Comment #76 - Posted by: Deiter at November 7, 2009 7:05 AM

Great post Denver Sheepdog (#37). Very well put.

Comment #77 - Posted by: Jon at November 7, 2009 7:12 AM

RE to Comment #24:

Paul, thanks for the link to a very informative article. Just to clarify things, and I apologize if I'm wasting anyone's time, but...burpees are considered to be a "gymnastic (G)" element, correct? I believe that this was mentioned at my Level 1 cert, but I want to make sure before I start freestylin' my garage gym programming ;^)

Comment #78 - Posted by: J.T. at November 7, 2009 7:12 AM

Also back kyle and #63.

My deepest sympathies to the victims, their families, and the already oppressed Muslim Americans/service people who are doing right.

Obama's a wimp.

I hope Hasan is executed, it seems likely.


Bravo main page. I applaud how well this discussion has remained cerebral instead of degenerating into a xenophobic bashing contest.

Comment #79 - Posted by: Andrew L at November 7, 2009 7:15 AM

step one cut a hole in the box...step two

Comment #80 - Posted by: auc at November 7, 2009 7:15 AM

RE to Comment #24:

Paul, thanks for the link to a very informative article. Just to clarify things, and I apologize if I'm wasting anyone's time, but...burpees are considered to be a "gymnastic (G)" element, correct? I believe that this was mentioned at my Level 1 cert, but I want to make sure before I start freestylin' my garage gym programming ;^)

Comment #81 - Posted by: J.T. at November 7, 2009 7:22 AM

Just so you all know, Sgt. Kim Munley is an avid crossfitter!

Comment #82 - Posted by: Lee at November 7, 2009 7:28 AM

Few thoughts. First, since doubt quite obviously remains in the minds of many, watch this video of what ALL the networks billed as "The President's response". He had been told what happened, and knew a lot of eyes were on him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0hiw8iXdMM

I think what we need to understand is he spends his days and nights thinking about how to fundamentally alter our economy and political system. Wars--and the soldiers who fight the wars--are a matter of complete indifference to him. He quite literally doesn't care. He hadn't talked to the Commanding General of a war where we have som 50,000 or so soldiers in several months, until McCrystal embarassed him in public. They he got an hour on Air Force One.

As far as this case, it is only soft headed Political Correctness and moral relativism that could enable ANYONE to rationalize support for suicide bombings, which are contrary both to common sense morality, and explicitly to Islamic teaching. He should have been given an Honorable--but quick--discharge the FIRST time he posted a sympathetic view towards the tactics of men who can only be described as sociopathic villains; particularly in tandem with long term and vocal opposition to the wars HIS Army is fighting.

His Commanding Officer, if he or she knew about this and did nothing, should be tried for dereliction of duty.

As far as what to do with him: I would simply like to see him spend the rest of his life behind bars, thinking about and unable to atone for his crimes. Those were not the acts of a true Muslim.

There's a lot of that going around.

Comment #83 - Posted by: Barry Cooper at November 7, 2009 7:28 AM

One in the hopper. Should come out about #77.

Comment #84 - Posted by: Barry Cooper at November 7, 2009 7:29 AM

#76: Nice. Tony, Sevan, Coach, Nicole: that sounds like a CrossFit interview to me. You know we'd all love it.

Comment #85 - Posted by: Barry Cooper at November 7, 2009 7:55 AM

# 67 Hari,
The Military has strict rules about belonging to or affilating with extremist groups already in place. I am not sure how the Military will be able to monitor all of its members but I am sure after this investigation is finished there will be some big changes. Unfortunately it will be a devastating event like this to be the catalyst for those changes.

Comment #86 - Posted by: Kevin at November 7, 2009 8:00 AM

#79, Kevin,

The guy was under investigation for the past six months. This information (my comment #67) was in plain view on the ISNA website. The military is either not applying its standards to certain people, or it is not willing to admit that ISNA is an extremist group. I don't see a third possibility.

Comment #87 - Posted by: Hari at November 7, 2009 8:17 AM

Religousity has been responsible for a substantial number of atrocities. The crusades and the Catholic church come to mind. I grew up active in a Christian program from youth which I began to question in high school. Then I attended the US Air Force Academy, where evangelical christianity enjoys a large following, sometimes at cost to unbelievers. I respect the teachings of Jesus and understand them to be pacifist in nature which seems to conflict with the role of a military member (turn the cheek). Hyper-religiousity is dangerous no matter the religion as it overwhelms rationality. At one extreme, I even witnessed a cadet near graduation post "inspirational" photos on facebook of him holding a sword in one hand, a bible in another, and kneeling at what can be presumed the presence of god. The inscription said "dual-wielding". Scary.

Comment #88 - Posted by: Thucydides at November 7, 2009 8:20 AM

More evidence that we need to take these religious texts, ideologies and beliefs and either, a) flush them the f down the toilet, b) with a serious grain of salt...

I love Bill Hicks quotes:

"Christianity has a built-in defense system: anything that questions a belief, no matter how logical the argument is, is the work of Satan by the very fact that it makes you question a belief. It's a very interesting defense mechanism and the only way to get by it -- and believe me, I was raised Southern Baptist -- is to take massive amounts of mushrooms, sit in a field, and just go, "Show me." (you can swap Christianity with Judaism, Islam, Atheism, any 'ism in my book)

“I think it’s interesting how people act on their beliefs. A lot of Christians, for instance, wear crosses around their necks. Nice sentiment, but do you think when Jesus comes back, he’s really going to want to look at a cross?
~ Bill Hicks

“A man is walking across a bridge, when he sees another guy about to jump off. ‘Hey, man’ he says, ‘you don’t have to do that.’
‘Why not?’ the other guy says, ‘I’ve got nothing to live for. I lost my job, I’m bankrupt, my wife left me and took the kids, my car threw a rod, and my dog just died. My life totally sucks.‘
‘But God still loves you,’ the man says, ‘you believe in God, don’t you?’
‘Well, I guess so,’ the guy says.
‘Tell me, are you a Christian?’
‘Yes’ the guy answers.
‘Well, so am I!’ the man says. ‘Catholic or Protestant?’
‘I’m Protestant’
‘Well, so am I!’. Methodist, or Baptist, or Presbyterian?’
‘I’m Baptist.’
‘Well, so am I. Northern or Southern Baptist?’
‘Northern Baptist.’
‘Well so am I!. Northern fundamentalist, liberal, or reformed?’
‘Northern fundamentalist.’
‘Well, so am I!. Northern fundamentalist eastern region, or Great Lakes region?’
‘Northern fundamentalist, eastern region.’
‘Well, so am I!. Northern fundamentalist, eastern region conference of 1898, or conference of 1912?’
‘Northern fundamentalist, eastern region, conference of 1912.’
‘Die, heretic!’ the man says, and pushes him off the bridge.”
~ Garrison Keillor

“You can’t convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it’s based on a deep seated need to believe.
~ Carl Sagan

Comment #89 - Posted by: t at November 7, 2009 8:22 AM

Yes, GOD is Great! He placed the police officer Kimberly Munley in the right spot at the right time and she was able to take this savage down.

Comment #90 - Posted by: lauren at November 7, 2009 8:23 AM

Christians scare me more than Muslims do.

Comment #91 - Posted by: Timmer at November 7, 2009 8:25 AM

RE to Comment #24:

Paul, thanks for the link to a very informative article. Just to clarify things, and I apologize if I'm wasting anyone's time, but...burpees are considered to be a "gymnastic (G)" element, correct? I believe that this was mentioned at my Level 1 cert, but I want to make sure before I start freestylin' my garage gym programming ;^)

Comment #92 - Posted by: J.T. at November 7, 2009 8:27 AM

Vast majority of believers are just doing the best they know to do and harm no one.

So are most non-believers. But then there's Mao and Stalin toremind us u don't have be a religious nut to be mass murderer.

Comment #93 - Posted by: apolloswabbie at November 7, 2009 8:34 AM

The problem is not that Faizul Khan is a Muslim nut, or a religious nut, or a garden variety psychotic. The problem is that he was plainly at direct odds with the mission of the US military. Why he felt that way is irrelevant. That he felt that way should have been sufficient reason to prevent him from serving as an officer.

Comment #94 - Posted by: Hari at November 7, 2009 8:42 AM

#13 MurphIZ, here is the text of Sura 9. As you can see, it only allows violence against those who break peace treaties. Of course, in Hasan's worldview, the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan may have satisfied that requirement.

"
If the idol worshipers sign a peace treaty with you, and do not violate it, nor band together with others against you, you shall fulfill your treaty with them until the expiration date. GOD loves the righteous.

[9:5] Once the Sacred Months are past, (and they refuse to make peace) you may kill the idol worshipers when you encounter them, punish them, and resist every move they make. If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), you shall let them go. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

[9:6] If one of the idol worshipers sought safe passage with you, you shall grant him safe passage, so that he can hear the word of GOD, then send him back to his place of security. That is because they are people who do not know.
"

Comment #95 - Posted by: Latham Fell M/29/178 at November 7, 2009 8:50 AM

Deiter #72, said: "There is no God."

That is a belief, because it can not be proven. So one could use your minute reasoning skills and say to you, keep your beliefs to yourself. All of creation testifies that there IS A GOD. You can not disprove creation; therefore you CAN NOT disprove God. Sorry, He gets to stay. Muslims DO NOT worship the same God as Christians. Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of the living God, God incarnate, said this:

Luke six, verse twenty seven to thirty six:
"But I (Jesus) say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you. To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back. And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise.

"But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back. But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is NO teaching like this in any other religion, especially not the false religion of Islam. Islam teaches that men can have virgins in heaven for killing their enemies. Christ taught that we will be sons of God by loving our enemies. Big difference. Definitely NOT the same deity.

Comment #96 - Posted by: Greg at November 7, 2009 8:53 AM

This series of posts is awesome, if you just sit back and read it without getting involved. A slice of America.

Kim Munley, if you're reading this: You've proven that you don't have to be a man to have balls. If it's true that "tough ain't enough", then you've got tough and whatever else is required, in abundance. I am doing my WOD in your honor today.

Comment #97 - Posted by: Steve Cole at November 7, 2009 9:09 AM

Steve your comments come across as frightening. My respect to the victims of Ft Hood. I don't think the way to do them honor is to call for war against a whole religion. It reminds me too much of actions conducted by the Nazis. The actions of a crazy fanatic is hard enough to deal with. We don't want to create a state that systematically hunts down those of a specific religion... which is the logical conclusion of some of these comments.

In regards to the 'God is great' comments I would refer people to the recent issues revolving around the Malaysian bible controversy. There are some who are trying to make Allah refer only to the Muslim God, rather than a word for God. The controversy is because it is not customary to make such a distinction. IN any case, what does it matter what he called out?

Comment #98 - Posted by: KPR at November 7, 2009 9:16 AM

#82-Ironically, that Bill Hicks quote is true about ONE religion only..the one that caused the murder of countless innocent civilians. The same one that caused the Crusades. The one that causes mobs to murder civilians in the street for making movies or writing books.

I grew up Roman Catholic--and not ONCE was I condemned for questioning every fundamental element of the faith-same when we moved to a small Mormon community-never ONCE was I judged or put upon to stop with my constant, insistent need to question....my need for proof! My most memorable intellectual discussions have been with Priests and very devout Catholics, Baptists, Mormons and practicing Taosists that I vehemently disagreed with. I am judged and called a 'homo-phobe' and many other names by my friends who think I'm nuts to remain Catholic.
I think people who say things like Bill Hicks did in your quotes are buying in to popular prejudices about Christians without any experience.

Comment #99 - Posted by: JOE at November 7, 2009 9:23 AM

If there is a supreme being we are all going to be judged by our intentions and actions as individuals with a lot of things taken into consideration, because we are only responsible for what we know or are exposed to. After being exposed to a knowledge of what is right or wrong we can then be judged fairly.

If there is a supreme being then that being in its supremity or supremeness (I know that's not a word but says exactly what I mean) KNOWS that we will differ and that some of us know what is right and some have clouded knowledge.

If there is a supreme being then that being knows that there are some good and some bad in every group be they Muslims, Christians, Jews, Crossfitters, Globo gym goers, or powerlifters, etc. And furthermore that supreme being would know that there are like-minded like-spirited people of good or ill will that can come together ( not necessarily physically but in the sum of their actions) to make the world a better or worse place...(assuming that the Supreme being gave us all free will to choose to do as we please).

If there is a supreme being then that being would check one freely acting reckless Major Nidal with a freely acting upright officer Munley. That supreme being would check Christians who are acting wrong with Buddhists who are acting right. He'd check Democrats who are acting wrong with Republicans who are acting right. He'd check Republicans with Independents, he'd check white people with black people. He'd check Germans with Americans, he'd check black people with mexicans, he'd check BELIEVERS acting wrong with NON-believers who were acting right! And for every example...vice versa...ETC, ETC, Etc

Bottom line is that supreme would set things up so that the Supreme being's creation, HUMANITY, would check itself because the supreme being's influence of goodness is there along with all of the other influences, and we can choose to use it or not. That supreme being would be such an infinite intelligence that the supreme being wouldn't even need to use one group to check another directly...it would just happen because that's how Humanity would be wired.

But what's interesting is that whether you believe in a supreme being or not...these checks and balances happen! When an individual does wrong other individuals step up to make sure justice is done. We hide behind names like Muslim, Jew, Christian, Crossfitter, Democrat, Republican, German, Russian, whatever...but when we're wrong we will be called out on it. And in the long run the truth always comes out and justice is done. There are cases where the bad seems to win out but the bad only wins when the good human beings sit back and do nothing.

If you don't believe in a supreme being then believe in the goodness in humanity as a whole. What good will it do to not believe in US? If you believe in a supreme being then thank that supreme being for putting the Good in US to check the bad in US and pray without ceasing that the Good takes action quickly when the bad rears it's head. Also pray that people stop looking at the labels of nationality, creed, religion, and color first before the label of HUMAN BEING.

Believe in humanity. Be knowledgeable and accountable. Fight when it's necessary to check the wrong...whether the wrong is wearing your jersey or not!


Comment #100 - Posted by: justa visitor at November 7, 2009 9:29 AM

From #90 above...I should not have said 'Fight when it's necessary...' I should have said 'Persist against wrong whether in word or necessary action to check the wrong...whether the wrong is wearing your jersey or not!


Comment #101 - Posted by: justa visitor at November 7, 2009 9:43 AM

Was this particular article chosen to stir up anti-muslim sentiment?

If so, I think that is very hateful.

Yes, he sympathized with muslim extremists. He opposed the war. He got into arguments with fellow soldiers that called him rag-head and haji and keyed his car for being muslim. And he tried to get out of the Army. But they told him he was going to have to deploy anyway.

That doesn't excuse his murders. But it seems like the Army knew this guy was a ticking time bomb and they kept him around.

I sometimes get scared that there is going to be a holocaust of muslims in this country. There are so many right-wing, birther tea-bagger, 9/12, people out there blaming a lot of America's problems on muslims. Including the "Muslim in Chief", Barack Hussein Obama. He's an Arab, you know?

God is great? That is a problem. But is it also a problem when American soldiers pray to God or Jesus before they go out to shoot the Taliban. Or is it OK because Jesus loves America the best.

Everyone knows this guys a muslim. That's not news. Let's face it, this guy is going to get locked up or executed for these murders. Not for being muslim.

It is ignorant or Crossfit to try to throw fuel on the anti-muslim fire. It's only going to lead to more hatred and violence.

Comment #102 - Posted by: Marshall at November 7, 2009 9:45 AM

AMRAP 20:

65# Snatches
= 9 R + 6 snatches


Glad to hear you are feeling better Strong lil Pony!!
Fit Mom- sounds like the shoulder is healing nicely!!

Erin

Comment #103 - Posted by: in8girl at November 7, 2009 10:06 AM

Marshall,

I don't understand your comments. The article is just stating the facts of the case. It does not attempt to persuade the reader one way or the other.

Sounds like you are equating his actions to the soldiers on the battlefield. You, my friend, are quite mistaken.

And how many innocent people have the tea-baggers murdered? Every American should be on the side of the tea baggers (less government concept)

Comment #104 - Posted by: tracy at November 7, 2009 10:06 AM

Paleo / Zone is the only true path. Renounce all that is not Elite. Alcohol is the anti-elite as is breads. CrossFit Straight and Narrow. Spankings to the bread eaters. Paleo / Zone is the light.

Comment #105 - Posted by: RRT at November 7, 2009 10:08 AM

Tracy #94,

Marshall is saying that by putting this article up on the CF main site, whoever manages this site is proliferating anti-muslim sentiment and that it's irresponsible to do so. I happen to agree with Marshall. He also did not say the Tea-Baggers were killers. He also never compared the killers actions to soldiers, he merely states that praying bfore whatever god you believe in before you go and kill people is stupid because if there is indeed a god, that god loves all, not just Americans.

Comment #106 - Posted by: Timmer at November 7, 2009 10:21 AM

great vid, y'all crushed it! way to make sage look human, lol!

Comment #107 - Posted by: welch at November 7, 2009 10:36 AM

Tracy

I just kind of feel like there are a million other stories in a million other papers and Crossfit chose the one with an inflammatory headline.

I am not equating his actions with those of American soldiers. I am trying to show that muslims aren't the only one who invoke the name of god when there is a chance they could die. As well as the fact that some people believe that god WANTS them to kill people. Evil people. A lot of cultures do that. It's not just muslims.

Everyone knows that Crossfit rest day articles tend to be right leaning. And the right in this country has a deep distrust of muslims and foreigners.

And I appreciate Crossfit's open ear and open mind for letting me call them on it.

Comment #108 - Posted by: Marshall at November 7, 2009 10:44 AM

My prayers go out to all those affected at Ft. Hood. Thank God for 1st Responders.

MurphIZ: I got your back Brotha...even though you smoked me on that snatch/pushup AMRAP yesterday. You are a great American.

Dieter and other Carl Sagan fans: Everyone believes in God/god...they either believe IN God or they believe they ARE God... :) maybe a level III cert and a perfect zone diet have deified you. Right on!
...check ADM James Stockdale's testimony while a POW in Vietnam.

Ralph Peters wrote a great article in the NY Post today...uh...and yes...it was a terrorist act...committed in the name of his god.

TimE #30: Excellent mountain top definition. It is a well defined scholarly/theological fact that Jews, Christians, and Muslims DO NOT worship the same G-D, God, god. We may all have some common moral objective truths for life...but the eternal perspective on faith, salvation, etc. is commpletely different. The mountaintops are different and you must choose a path. Christianity is the only faith in the world where God reaches down and restores His creation...everyone else is working for it out of their depravity hoping it all works out in the end. I'll go with option A: A Loving God.
Also...all ancient near east monotheistic religions...ie, Judaism/Christianity/Islam draw from the same original root word for G-D, God, god...El or Al. Dont confuse originial root language with religion beliefs or practice.

I know guys that went to med school with this guy, he was never known as a peaceful good American as the family and news outlets claim. Leadership character flaws at Walter Reed due to PC let this go on for to long. So they did the Army thing if a guy is a non-performer...PCS him to another unit and duty station to become someone elses problem. We need leadership not likership.

I'm humbled to believe in a loving God, honored to serve and defend this great nation, it's people, and the freedom to have forums like this to express our beliefs.

Now go set some physical, mental, and spiritual PR's for yourselves!

Nacho

Comment #109 - Posted by: nacho at November 7, 2009 11:16 AM

#97, Marshall, writes,

"I just kind of feel like there are a million other stories in a million other papers and Crossfit chose the one with an inflammatory headline.

I am not equating his actions with those of American soldiers. I am trying to show that muslims aren't the only one who invoke the name of god when there is a chance they could die."

While you may "feel" or want to believe that there are a million other similar stories, can you actually find a single link to another recent example of a US military officer opening fire and killing more than a dozen his own people?


Comment #110 - Posted by: Hari at November 7, 2009 11:17 AM

Well said #80 and #81, well said indeed.

I truly believe though, that this shooting probably had a lot less to do with religion than it did with severe mental illness. Sane people don't just go off on shooting rampages (this does not include people who live in war zones). I think the situation is very sad for all the parties involved, including the shooter. Too many people look at these kinds of things as black and white, good guy and bad guy when the truth of the matter is the shooter wasn't some evil guy, he was a sick, sick person. If the same guy had some how carried the Ebola virus and accidentally transmitted it to 13 soldiers who all died he would be considered a victim, not a killer but really what's the difference between being sick from a virus or being sick in your head? Now, I'm not saying there aren't evil people out there, just that when someone clearly snaps like this they aren't evil, they're just totally sick, broken and gone and I feel just as sorry for the family of the shooter as I do for the other victims.

Comment #111 - Posted by: Jesco at November 7, 2009 11:21 AM

#104 nacho.....EVERYONE believes in god?! Are you nuts? I was raised in an Anglican household and when I finally grew up and started to think for myself, I realized that I didn't belive in all of the horses$%t that I was being fed by the church. Not all people belive in god.And I am one of them.

Comment #112 - Posted by: Timmer at November 7, 2009 11:23 AM


RIP...Staff Sergeant Amy Krueger, 467th Medical Detachment Madison, WI. Was among 13 Killed Fort Hood, TX
Home...Kiel, WI

Comment #113 - Posted by: Chuck O at November 7, 2009 11:33 AM

COmment # 13, is unfortunately exactly correct. This is exactly what the Qu'ran teaches. I know that isn't PC but truth is truth and this is true. I also know there are "nice things" in the Qu'ran, but for that, please research the concept of Islamic Abrogation. Also study how Islam spread. You might be surprised. See "The Politically Incorrect Guide To Islam" by Robert Spencer for more. No, I'm not picking on people, I am picking on the source of this teaching, that is... Muhammad via the Qu'ran. In an effort to create an empire, Muhammad accidentally formed a religion.

Comment #114 - Posted by: Craig at November 7, 2009 11:40 AM

It is interesting how a normal workout day shows a crossfit community that is supportive and encouraging of one another, yet when religion comes up on a rest day, the claws come out.

Comment #115 - Posted by: Lost Boy at November 7, 2009 11:40 AM

LostBoy....because religion is the root of all evil.

Comment #116 - Posted by: Timmer at November 7, 2009 11:42 AM

Yeah god IS great, a great MYTH!

lol. silly children.

Comment #117 - Posted by: lucretius at November 7, 2009 11:51 AM

#99 Tracy (and #103 Marshall)

I also think the choice of article on the subject is unfortunately inflammatory.

Why choose a story from a UK tabloid paper known for its libelous content? Seriously - why not simply post a link to the National Enquirer's coverage of the story? That would be about the American newspaper equivalent.

If you think the story simply recites the facts, look closer at headlines and the language choice. It is deliberately inflammatory.

As responsible intelligent citizens it is our duty to recognize when media attempts to manipulate emotions to further whatever their agenda. The one lesson I will make sure my children learn and learn well in this world is to always pause and question everything presented in the news before they react. I mean everything. From the conclusiveness of the "facts" presented to the opinions voiced. I want them to make up their own minds and not simply be co-opted by corporate media.

For those who don't know about the very political stances of the UK papers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Daily_Mail

"The Daily Mail is a British daily tabloid newspaper. First published in 1896 by Lord Northcliffe, it is the United Kingdom's second biggest-selling daily newspaper after The Sun." (also a disreputable sensationalist tabloid)

"The Mail takes an anti-EU, anti-abortion view, based upon "traditional values", and is pro-capitalism and pro-monarchy, as well as, in some cases, advocating stricter punishments for crime."

Comment #118 - Posted by: Kath at November 7, 2009 12:10 PM

Religion is not the root of all evil rather the interpretation of religion is the evil.

Comment #119 - Posted by: tracy at November 7, 2009 12:10 PM

I apologize for my multiple posts today. I need to learn patience...the filter is one hard-working son of a gun! Sorry...

Comment #120 - Posted by: J.T. at November 7, 2009 12:12 PM

James 1:27
"Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world."

1 Timothy 6:10
“For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.”

Comment #121 - Posted by: Greg/M2 at November 7, 2009 12:47 PM

Mr. Miramontes, would you mind posting a complete list of equipment contained in your great "gym in a box?" Thanks in advance!

Comment #122 - Posted by: herrmabh at November 7, 2009 1:00 PM

I can't believe I am joining in on this. But I think mostly everyone is concerned with the wrong thing concerning the shooting. This man was no different than any other person who goes on a rampage killing people. Just because he happened to be a Muslim MAJ in the U.S. Army and a Phsycologist doesn't mean he didn't just go nuts like others who have committed similar crimes. And I don't care what his motives are, if you open up on defensless people you are NUTS.

Instead of concentrating on what his motives were or what his religion was, we should simply insure he pays for his crimes, learn from the events of that horrible day and remember those who were killed.

Comment #123 - Posted by: shane 30/m/5'9"/175 at November 7, 2009 1:34 PM

Hey-

Crossfit Challenge event today at Gold's Gym here in Springfield hosted by TrainerMolly.

2 workouts - pushups, sprints, burpees, stairs, sandbag, tire-flips and push truck across parking lot outside; then deadlift, clean and press x 5 rounds in the gym. Thank you Molly and well done. It was just what I needed.

-K

Comment #124 - Posted by: Kevin Rogers (Springfield, IL) at November 7, 2009 1:44 PM

Renounce bread and beer, non-Paleo believers! You are not elite with grain.

Comment #125 - Posted by: Kevin at November 7, 2009 2:13 PM

M/49/150/1-1-06

CFWU x 3

CFSB re-set
Shoulder Press 3 x 3

90 x 3
100 x 3
110 x 1 Fail (note: post-injury 1RM PR is 110)

High Rep 70# 12-9-6

WOD

Every minute on the minute for 15:00
3 Power Clean 105#
3 35" Box Jump

Form degredation, shut it down at 12:00

Comment #126 - Posted by: bingo at November 7, 2009 2:18 PM

Dogmatic atheist::dogmatic theist, as black pot::black kettle. If you are hating people, you can't claim moral superiority on the basis that you are not hating people.

That is likely much too complicated for some of you. If you were smart, you wouldn't say the things you do.

Comment #127 - Posted by: Barry Cooper at November 7, 2009 2:19 PM

The sad, sad things that people do in the name of their god.

May peace find those who are suffering right now.

Comment #128 - Posted by: Mike at November 7, 2009 2:28 PM

I wanted to follow up a comment I made earlier. It occurred to me my comment of "nice", upon learning Officer Munley was a CrossFitter, was insensitive.

After all, she is at this very moment lying in a hospital bed, likely with tubes coming out of her, having to be protected from the media by a friend or family member, and her child is probably freaking out.

Depending on where she was shot, there may be bone injuries in her legs, and there are almost certainly substantial tissue injuries that will require a lot of rehab.

This is a first rate cluster-, for her, even though she survived.

So first off, I will say that for those of you who believe in it, you should say a quiet prayer for her rapid recovery from both her physical wounds, and from any emotional trauma she or anyone around her may have suffered.

This still leaves me with my reaction. What was my deal? Why was a sense of concern for her well being not the FIRST thing that hit my mind? It took me a couple hours of pondering to hit on it: like many of you, I grew up fantasizing about being the guy running into the fire when everyone else was running out. I wanted to be the one who kept their cool when everyone was panicking. I wanted to be the one who did their job even after everyone else quit. I wanted to be the one who said "I may die here, but this stops right now".

She did that. She faced an awful situation--a man shooting at her, hitting her twice--and reacted with at least 4 measured, accurate shots. That's no small accomplishment.

According to Lee, she is an avid CrossFitter. She is one of us. Now, how deep that commitment goes remains to be seen, but if she is like many of us, CrossFit has literally reshaped in some ways her internal self image. She fears less; can take more pain longer; and is much more willing to accept without complaint whatever life deals out.

Now, she has no duty to grant interviews to anyone, although it will no doubt be financially advantageous to do so. I am just very curious to hear what she has to say, and in particular if CrossFit affected her performance in any way.

Comment #129 - Posted by: Barry Cooper at November 7, 2009 2:31 PM

Marshall (and others),

Our best information is that the report of him crying out "Allahu Akbar" before shooting is accurate. This is an important detail.

What you are implicitly doing is saying that the potential political impace of an event is more important than what actually happened.

This is dishonest and corrupt. Doing news that way leads to propaganda, and eventually tyranny. That is all the Soviets did. That is all the Nazis did: they massaged the news to create desired perceptions, rather than tell the whole truth and let the viewer or reader draw their own conclusions.

What if this guy WAS killing in the name of Islam? Do we honor the dead by lying about it? Do we best develop policies to prevent recurrences of this by lying about it?

Are you incapable of grasping the immense implications of what you are saying? You are, in fact, parroting the Party line which does in fact define most of our formerly Mainstream Media. And they serve, in general, as propaganda organs of leftist intellectuals who hide their faces and agendas in the shadows.

Your views are anti-democratic, and implicitly totalitarian.

Comment #130 - Posted by: Barry Cooper at November 7, 2009 2:36 PM

If you can't crossfit on bread and beer your a sissy try pilates.

Comment #131 - Posted by: Rob at November 7, 2009 2:44 PM

I can't wait for the "Kim M? WOD

Comment #132 - Posted by: Matt 34/175 at November 7, 2009 2:44 PM

Not all muslims are terrorists.
But most terrorists are muslins :)

Stay alert, be safe.

Comment #133 - Posted by: Proud infidel at November 7, 2009 2:48 PM

RE to Comment #125:

Rob, if you drink beer and eat bread before a Pilates workout, it'll be all over your shirt after The Hundred...which is the first element in a classic mat session.

On a full stomach, Pilates will make you puke faster than any CrossFit WOD ;^)

Comment #134 - Posted by: J.T. at November 7, 2009 3:08 PM

Barry Cooper #123 - well said

Barry Cooper #121 - I agree with the first half of your comment but just hope you include yourself and your ultra right wing beliefs in your dogmatic summary.

Your dismissive & arrogant language, your rock solid certainty of your own superiority and your self aggrandising and elitist positions are strangely familiar of dangerous extremists through history.

As a more moderate conservative I view your arguments with the same distrust that the vast majority of Muslims no doubt view the terrorists among their own religon


Comment #135 - Posted by: Johnson Harrison - fresno at November 7, 2009 3:20 PM

Made up Snatch/PU WOD, details there.

Comment #136 - Posted by: Apolloswabbie 6'2" 205 45 yoa at November 7, 2009 3:21 PM

M/44/165

400m repeats
1:04
1:22
1:37
1:25

Comment #137 - Posted by: Greg/M2 at November 7, 2009 3:31 PM

#128 Being a male, I don't think its the bread and beer that make you puke its the sheer act of engaging in pilates in the first place :-)

Comment #138 - Posted by: Rob at November 7, 2009 3:45 PM

Is there a full list of equipment inside the "Gym in a Box"?

Comment #139 - Posted by: Michael at November 7, 2009 4:06 PM

Regarding the shooter at Fort Hood, his attitude and expressed beliefs about US foreign policy, which he often stated through the prism of Islam, were clearly at odds with the military's mission. He should have been discharged and had no business serving as an officer. What I want to know is whether any political pressure or politically correct policy of religious tolerance (read: Islam and Muslims) prevented his superiors from dealing with his obviously not being fit for duty.

Comment #140 - Posted by: Rustypelican at November 7, 2009 4:09 PM

"Clearly I think it was a terrorist act. Whether he was connected to another group or not or a formal group is question we'll find out over the next couple of days," said Michael Scheuer, the former head of the CIA's Bin Laden unit.

"But for years now, it's been very clear that two of the targets for Al Qaeda and other Islamic groups for recruitment were in the U.S. military and in the U.S. prison system," he said. "So this is not really much of anything new."

Walid Phares, an expert on terrorism and a senior fellow at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, called the shooting "the largest single terror act in America since 9/11."

"What happened at Ft. Hood is not about being frustrated by America's foreign policy or exacting revenge for racial slurs. Nor is it about simply being a Muslim-American serving in the military or about being a member of any faith," he wrote in an opinion piece published in FoxNews.com's Fox Forum.

"The murders at Ft. Hood are about the radicalization of individuals by an extremist ideology -- jihadism -- which fuels acts of terror," he said. "The main question we should be asking is when did Hasan become radicalized and who indoctrinated him? Everything else will fall in place once we have these answers. Moreover, this would allow us to detect other potential terror acts that may be in the making."

The authorities have not ruled out terrorism in the shooting, but they said the preliminary evidence suggests that it wasn't.

Phares said he doesn't expect the shooting to be ruled an act of terrorism because he believes the Obama administration has made a political calculation to not fight a war on terror. He cited the administration's decision to substitute "Overseas Contingency Operation" for the "global war on terror."

"Had this occurred under the previous administration or any other previous administration, the natural position would have been America is under attack," he said. "It would have been a different posture. Now because a strategic decision has been made to disengage, our efforts will be suffering. They're not going to coin it as terrorism."

Scheuer said law enforcement officials have been loathe to rule the shooting an act of terrorism because "they're politically correct."

"Over the last 24 hours it appears this major was a very devout Muslim, and his pending deployment overseas put him in a position where he was going to be assisting in killing other Muslims," he said. "And that's a very big decision for a Muslim to do, not only killing another Muslim but killing on behalf of an infidel or a Christian."

But Tobias remained skeptical.

"To me, it looks more like the other shootings where one person seems mentally deranged," he said, adding that the rampage reminded him of the Virginia Tech shootings in 2007." -Fox News

-----------
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/11/07/terrorism-tragic-shooting-analysts-divided-fort-hood-massacre/

Comment #141 - Posted by: Greg/M2 at November 7, 2009 4:13 PM

Its now being reported that he was saying "Allah Akbar" while he was shooting, not just before he died. Clearly this was a Muslim terrorist, on a mission to kill American soldiers.

Comment #142 - Posted by: Greg/M2 at November 7, 2009 4:16 PM

#129: No, I don't, since I subject my ideas and beliefs to critical analysis on a daily basis.

Your comment, there, is entirely without content. You quite literally have said nothing except that you disagree with me, and believe that you can place me in an accurate category which is negative, and which for that reason can then be ignored.

Such an attitude is self referential. Using abstract, unanchored language, you can quite literally spend a lifetime without learning anything new.

Me, I post specific ideas, and the reasons I hold those ideas, constantly. I have been doing this for some years. That has given me a high level of confidence, which has been earned, that my ideas are not only defensible, but better for reasons I can articulate than any others of which I know.

You can't disagree with this in the abstract. If there is some specific thing with which you want to disagree, then do it. For example, do you find any advantage to hateful atheists over hateful religious zealots?

Comment #143 - Posted by: Barry Cooper at November 7, 2009 4:21 PM

I think you got me wrong Barry.

I'm not saying it's not newsworthy to report that he said Allahu Akbar before he murdered those people. I think it's pretty clear that this guy had begun to espouse a view that the war he was about to be deployed to was a war on islam. And he probably thought he would be a martyr. That has been thoroughly reported by the liberal media elites.

And by the way, the nazis were good at demonizing particular religions in their media too. But let's not play "who's the real nazi". And don't even get me started on Fox News, whose syyle of coverage seems to be directly aligned with most of the rest day articles. Coincidence?

I'm saying that there are several articles that talk about the hero that took this psycho out. But Crossfit chose the one with the most inflammatory headline.

This woman is a true hero and the headline has very little to do with her story. I feel the selection of that particular article with that particular headline is an attempt to arouse anti-muslim sentiment within the Crossfit community and I find it despicable.

Comment #144 - Posted by: Marshall at November 7, 2009 4:34 PM

"This is dishonest and corrupt. Doing news that way leads to propaganda, and eventually tyranny. That is all the Soviets did. That is all the Nazis did: they massaged the news to create desired perceptions, rather than tell the whole truth and let the viewer or reader draw their own conclusions."

Huh? What media have YOU been following? The media is massaged for one reason or another on a constant basis. What world do you live within?

Sure he yelled what he yelled...there is an important distinction we need to make here though. There is a difference between someone snapping and going on a rampage and a coordinated terrorist act. I wouldn't doubt that his religious beliefs defined who he was and how he acted out...but to grab onto this negative is a mistake.

I think we need to focus on the fact that plenty of people seem to be coming out and saying "hey, we knew this guy had issues" well then, numbnuts...why in the world did no one DO something about it earlier. Not monday morning QB'ng it. I mean it, WHY didn't they? What is it about us as a human race that we ignore these things more often than not?

It is ALWAYS faster to move sooner than faster. Same can be said for anything in life. Take action SOONER not FASTER. Act not react. There appear to have been some pretty clear signs that this person had more than normal issues going on, how do we learn from this to help future people not have the same breaks this nutjob did?

On top of that, how the hell did he get two firearms into a military base?

I'm seconding or thirding the religion is the root of all evil comment. The belief and capitalization on those beliefs are in fact pure evil IMHO. People justify anything based on their beliefs.

Theology? The study of religious beliefs? Hmm, lots of people talking about why their system of beliefs is right over another (or not)...how quaint.

Comment #145 - Posted by: t at November 7, 2009 4:52 PM

The question here is "should the media tell the truth to the best of its ability, or should it use its power of influence to affect popular perceptions?" Should they just report the news, or should they stop and think about the effects it will have, and exercise politically motivated prior restraint?

Do you really think most members of most informational warfare teams didn't believe at heart that what they were doing was justified?

Comment #146 - Posted by: Barry Cooper at November 7, 2009 5:19 PM

Test

Comment #147 - Posted by: MikeT 32/6'1"/200 at November 7, 2009 5:37 PM

Marshall,

We are one of the least bigoted groups you will ever find. We even tolerate, to the extent of our ability, people who persistently and the in face of all evidence continue to advance counterfactual, demonstrably counter-productive and dangerous ideas.

Go to any leftist website. What you will find is shrieking and shouting if anyone fails to toe the line. To a lesser extent, you see this on the right. But here nobody is saying "kill the Muslims". YOU ARE. You are predicting a reaction you have no factual basis to expect, then trying to pin it on us. You are, in short, insulting the characters and intellectual capacities of the people who visit this forum.

Are you not more offensive in that subjective contention, than an article which does nothing but offer up a summary of events without editorial comment?

I actually logged back on to post this link, on SERGEANT Munley. I misspoke earlier. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6907235.ece

We apparently lost 4 CrossFitters in the shooting. I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes saying that.

I'll have more to say tomorrow. That's more than enough for today. Say some prayers tonight, and hug your loved ones a bit more thoughtfully than you normally do.

Comment #148 - Posted by: Barry Cooper at November 7, 2009 5:51 PM

Barry,

you've absolutely turned me around.

I now realise that it is me that has the problem and that your ongoing commitment to your own education, not to mention your insight, erudition and the sheer learned density of your comments are testament to your rectitude.

Comment #149 - Posted by: Johnson Harrison - fresno at November 7, 2009 5:58 PM

Mystery "T" #139, whom is afraid to post his/her real identity, posted: "On top of that, how the hell did he get two firearms into a military base?"

Its a "Military" base. Not sure which country your from, but our military is armed with weapons, NOT words.

If you have no religious beliefs, then how do you define what is "Pure evil?" And while your at it, please define what is "Pure good." And please be original.

Comment #150 - Posted by: Greg/M2 at November 7, 2009 6:09 PM

Bingo #71:

If Sgt. Munley isn't in line for a hero WOD, is there room for another "Girl" WOD? (Something including many walking lunges might be appropriate.)

Sgt. Munley deserves the highest praise.

Comment #151 - Posted by: slowjoe at November 7, 2009 6:25 PM

slowjoe #145,

Sgt. Munley for a new "Girl" WOD. She's a Crossfitter, after all. That sounds like an awfully good idea.

Good on ya, Sir!

Comment #152 - Posted by: bingo at November 7, 2009 8:02 PM

my 2c: good that he survived, now he can be tried for treason. (but he won't)

Comment #153 - Posted by: rs at November 7, 2009 10:58 PM

First, this person was obviously suffering from a mental illness. That fact in no way excuses or justifies what he did.

Second, we could argue that any number of factors in his life, including his choice of religion, contributed to his rampage. However, I think it is unfair to portray his religion as the primary thing that distinguishes him from other people and it seems as though the media has focussed on this point. They could spin it just as well that it was his military training that drove him to kill people and not his fanatical devotion to his church.

Of course, that would be absurd because there are thousands of men and women in the Armed Forces who don't go around killing each other. There are also over a billion Muslims in the world and the vast majority of them don't go about trying to kill people, either.

This whole thing smells like every other case where some deranged person opens fire on unsuspecting people. The media always tries to add something else to the equation to scare people because fear gets ratings and sells papers. And every interest group that wants some free press jumps in on the frenzy and tries to place blame where blame shouldn't be placed. Columbine comes to mind. It wasn't video games, violent movies, dungeons & dragons, or industrial music that caused that tragedy, it was a couple of mentally unstable teenagers.

Shouldn't we be putting the blame on the people who are responsible, rather than ideas that those people may hold, the music that they listen to or the god to which they pray?

Greg,
You're confusing religion with morality. You don't need religious beliefs to believe in (or define) good or evil. Obviously, religious people who believe their morality derives from a god are just as capable of immoral-- evil-- acts as people who don't believe. Further, the phrase "pure evil" can just as well be a figure of speech and doesn't always need to be defined in terms of a mythological idea, like the devil. Similarly, despite my atheism, I still say, "bless you," when people sneeze; it's a polite thing to say, even if neither of us believe that we are actually warding off evil spirits.

Comment #154 - Posted by: Nick Wise at November 7, 2009 11:17 PM

Anyone who's actually been on a government compound or military base in the US want to chime in on loaded firearms at a such facility? What you think folks just stroll around strapped because they are psychologists?

Comment #155 - Posted by: t at November 7, 2009 11:26 PM

#143: you had a choice. You could have chosen to argue your position, or make a specific critique of mine. You chose sarcasm. What else do I need to know to form a judgment? "By their fruit you shall know them."

Here are some assumptions I think we can make. First off, he did not "snap". It took planning to get the guns on base. He was by all accounts methodical and calm while he was shooting. He was a combat stress specialist, who--more than anyone--ought to have been able to manage any anxieties he had.

He had, over a long period of time, expressed anger at the US military, and the wars we were fighting. He apparentely expressed support for the tactic of inflicting mass civilian death through suicide bombing.

If he was angry at his commanding officers or Army bureaucrats for not granting him his cowardice or principle based discharge, he should have sought out and shot them. Once the guns were on base, he would have had relatively free movement. Even if these people were in other states, some form of "The Man" would have been accessible.

Instead, he chose to shoot innocent soldiers who had done nothing to him personally, and whose primary "crime" was being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

He planned these murders. And according to the account Greg posted at #135, he didn't say "Allah Akbar" once, he said it several times, while shooting. FOR HIM--repeat FOR HIM--this was the act of a Muslim WORSHIPPER. A religious act, if you will. He, in his own mind, at that moment, combined the death he was dealing with God.

Why wouldn't we label this terrorism? Just like the shootings in D.C., who were also Muslims?

I would submit it is more or less well meaning but soft headed individuals like Marshall who have created this situatino of being unable to TELL THE TRUTH. Now, it is not like he's intentionally spreading propaganda, any more than someone who picks up the flu virus is trying to infect others. He's just repeating uncritically the indoctrination memes he learned in school, such as: there is no right and wrong; one man's terrorist is anothers freedom fighter; nothing is worth fighting for; no one uses violence if they have not been oppressed; being tolerant is more important than telling the truth; we all just want peace.

The people I blame are college professors and, to a lesser extent, high school teachers. It is their JOB--the point of their professional existence--to be ABLE To think, and to teach that ability to our young.

Not only have they failed utterly and completely, to a large extent this failure is intentional.

One could talk--I have talked-- a long time about the reasons for this, but I will submit one factor trumps all others: they are COWARDS. Simple as that.

Comment #156 - Posted by: Barry Cooper at November 8, 2009 4:47 AM

One other comment. Bringing loaded, personal guns onto military bases is legally the same as bringing them into Post Office facilities. It is highly forbidden, for the same reason: they don't want a mass shooting, like happened here.

As I think about it, the logistics of getting loaded guns onto base are probably not that daunting. They likely just look at your ID as you are driving in, then waive you through, especially if they've seen you every day for years.

They will interrogate this guy, and it will be interesting to see how much of what they uncover will be newsworthy by the standards of Marshall, and how much will never be revealed; at least by the people for whom informing us is supposedly their primary mission and responsibility.

Comment #157 - Posted by: Barry Cooper at November 8, 2009 5:06 AM

Fellow Crossfitters,

First post….been CrossFitting for about a year now. Lov’in every minute of it. Anyway my two cents on this.

First, the fact that Maj Hasan shouted “Allah Akbar” while committing this act solidly puts him in the camp of Muslim violent extremist. He brought religion into the discussion not the soldiers at Fort Hood. This was a deliberate act to shape a political outcome and therefore terrorism, not a crime. Additionally, I reject the notions offered that Maj Hasan suffered from PTSD or did not want to deploy causing him to snap. If he did not wish to deploy there are numerous other ways he could have dealt with the situation. None of which include murdering comrades in arms.

Second, I serve with Muslims, Christians, Jews, atheists, you name it. All serve and do their duty to their country. However, it does not matter if you, I, or 90% of Muslims disavow the Jihadist as not representative of Islam. The fact is that the violent extremist fiercely believes his view of Islam and is willing to kill innocents whether they be Muslim or non-Muslims to achieve his goals. We all must focus on the 10% or so violent extremist that seek to force their religious views on the world. We ignore them at our peril.

Third, I highly recommend the video “The Third Jihad.” The film, narrated by devout Muslim American Dr. Zuhdi Jasser, opens with the following statement: “This is not a film about Islam. It is about the threat of radical Islam. Only a small percentage of the world’s 1.3 billion Muslims are radical. This film is about them.” The video provides a balanced view http://www.nationalterroralert.com/updates/2009/09/10/the-third-jihad-available-for-free-online-streaming/

Have a great day,

Robby

Comment #158 - Posted by: RobbyH m/35/5'6"/155 at November 8, 2009 2:21 PM

Hi Nick,

Thanks for expressing your faith. But you have not answered the question. So here is another one.

Give me an example of a society that completely eliminated all belief in God, and at the same time existed in harmony with a morality similar to what we see in Judeo-Christian societies. And if you are able to find me an example, tell me how that society is doing today?

Then tell me, if God does not exist, how everything we see came into existence from nothing? Please be original, and do not use any other source then what you have learned all on your own, from only your observations of the things all around you.

Peace,
Greg

Comment #159 - Posted by: Greg/M2 at November 8, 2009 2:40 PM

Greg/M2

big bang theory mean anything to you?

Comment #160 - Posted by: Johnson Harrison - fresno at November 8, 2009 6:06 PM

Sub 19 here i come!

Comment #161 - Posted by: Alec at November 8, 2009 7:04 PM

Greg/M2

If "God" doesn't need a creator, why does the universe need one? Just because?

Comment #162 - Posted by: Mike E at November 8, 2009 7:38 PM

Barry,

my point was about how unpleasant and disturbing I find the tone & intent of your postings. This is not about an exchange of ideas, it's about win/lose for you, by battering others into submission, often via insults.

I drew a parallel between the abusive and singular way you express your views with similar methods displayed by other extremists.

you failed to address my initial point completely but attempted to reframe it into a subject more comfortable to you, a successful but cynical tactis which you didn't event but use very well.

you accuse me of being self referential. from the person who earlier posted the below, I find the accusation comical.

"That is likely much too complicated for some of you. If you were smart, you wouldn't say the things you do"

Comment #163 - Posted by: nick in sydney m/37/6ft/183 at November 8, 2009 8:18 PM

Mr. Johnson: Did you witness the big bang "Theory?" I can see everything God made, but I can't see the big bang theory.

Mike: The universe is material, it can be seen and measured, it had a beginning, and it has an end. God is Spirit, He is unseen and immeasurable, has no beginning, and has no end. Yet He has made Himself very knowable through His Son, Jesus the Christ. Intelligent design requires an intelligent designer. But an immeasurable intelligence has no need of an immeasurable designer. To understand this, one must know God as their Father. Those that belong to Him, hear Him, follow Him, and love Him. A love I might add that is far better then any love I have ever known. :)

Peace,
Greg

Comment #164 - Posted by: Greg/M2 at November 8, 2009 8:52 PM

In the famous words of Billy Currington:

"God is great, beer is good and people are crazy."

Comment #165 - Posted by: Johnny E at November 8, 2009 10:08 PM

did a workout at the new affiliate in zürich with one of the trainers.

deadlifts @ 60kg
double unders

50DL - 10DU
40DL - 20DU
30DL - 30DU
20DL - 40DU
10DL - 50DU

time: 16'10
smoked me!

Comment #166 - Posted by: ccfeldt at November 9, 2009 2:22 AM

Nick in Sydney,

If I ducked an actual point discussing something other than me, or "opinions" in the abstract, that is absolutely a contravention of my value system. I looked for but did not see the post in question. Please tell me the number, and if need be, expand on the point.

If you want to argue that civility is a value, in and of itself, I say BS. Neville Chamberlain was civil. Hell, reports of Goerring are that he was, if anything, EXCESSIVELY polite.

Neither means anything. In my view, what matters, first and foremost, is determining the best available understanding of truth, in any context.

Ideas have consequences. In this case, I look at postmodern professors teaching Army officers. These officers then take a fundamental moral ambivalence and soft-headed "tolerance" to work. They get repeated reports that someone is a timebomb. But he's a Muslim. As I read today in the national Obama propaganda organ, USA Today, what we need to worry ourselves with, following an attack by a terrorist apparently motivated by his religious beliefs, is a backlash of intolerance, not further attacks.

Now, this does appear to be an isolated incident. But, equally, it DOES appear to be what can only be understood as a one man Jihad. Did he have co-conspirators? Was he in a network? These are questions that get much harder to ask if our first worry is intolerance.

This is soft-headed pabulum. It is stupid. And I for one will fight to the extent of my ability stupid ideas each and every time they appear, here.

Ideas get people killed. In this case, it appears clear that this mass murder--these deaths--can almost certainly be attributed to political correctness in tandem with some degree of cowardice and indecisiveness.

Comment #167 - Posted by: Barry Cooper at November 9, 2009 7:24 AM

RE to Comment #167:

"If you want to argue that civility is a value, in and of itself, I say BS."

Well, that pretty much explains your attitude towards others in a nutshell. Like Nick in Sydney has already mentioned, Barry, there is no pleasant and enlightening exchange of ideas or broadening of horizons to be attained by trying to dialogue with you.

Having said that and knowing better from past experience, I'll give it a shot. From what I've read, the reason why the gunman was allowed to stay in uniform despite repeated incidences of odd behavior that raised eyebrows is because nobody bothered to...wait for it...DOCUMENT any of the alleged behavior. In government work (which includes the military), derogatory information must be DOCUMENTED with proof residing on the accuser. We can't promote, demote, relieve and move personnel based on a "he-said, she-said" policy. I wouldn't go so far as to call out the entire military officer corps (and I'm a lifer non-com, no less!) for "cowardice" because that particular word is the strongest negative term that can be used against anyone wearing the uniform. I think people who crossed the gunman's path prior to this incident were probably (1) shocked by his behavior, but (2) willing to give him benefit of the doubt because, well, maybe he was having a bad day at the time, he has a stressful job, he's a potential PTSD sufferer, and so forth. Sadly, not documenting these experiences and communicating with his superiors led to a really bad day for scores of people who didn't deserve it.

Although documenting the major's worrying behavior doesn't guarantee that this tragic incident would have been avoided, at the very least, we'd have a paper trail to work with to possibly analyze the escalation of his mindset from a conflicted one to a murderous one.

Comment #168 - Posted by: J.T. at November 9, 2009 7:46 AM

Here you go: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/fort-hood-shooter-contact-al-qaeda-terrorists-officials/story?id=9030873

Data points:

Long term, vocal, emotionally violent opposition to the wars we were fighting, in public, by an officer.

Said officer was responsible for counseling psychological casualties of those wars, telling them who knows what, using his position to implant who knows what ideas.

Said officer was KNOWN--this came out immediately, not as a result of a long term investigation--to be posting comments sympathetic to a basic tactic--suicide bombing--of terrorism.

And now we find he was known to have tried to contact known Al Queda associates.

This is incompetence, plain and simple. Who to blame, I don't know, but for my part I will consider the worst culprits those professorial elites who FAIL to teach how to create actionable moral judgements, and who in their stead teach soft-headed tolerance, which is hypocritical because tolerance leads to the support of intolerance through violence, as seen here.

Anyone who has a thin skin shouldn't debate me. I don't pull punches, but neither do I expect anyone else to. I just want them to stake a claim, to offer up a coherent position. Since that never happens, my responses to personal attacks make it look like all I want to do is fight. That's not true. I just nevef get to debate.

Comment #169 - Posted by: Barry Cooper at November 9, 2009 7:56 AM

From what I can tell, his behavior was consistent with his beliefs to whomever he crossed paths with for years. You'd think, with all of the hundreds of people that he's dealt with since his commissioning date, that more than a few alarming comment cards would have made their way into a hospital suggestion box or something.

Comment #170 - Posted by: J.T. at November 9, 2009 8:02 AM

Agreed. From the article: "A fellow Army doctor who studied with Hasan, Val Finell, told ABC News, "We would frequently say he was a Muslim first and an American second. And that came out in just about everything he did at the University."

I would submit that the difference between Muslims who belong in the military--or the U.S. period--lies in this priority. If they view their civic responsibilities as foremost--if they understand that their religious freedom is PREDICATED on the continuing viability of our Republic and the protections it offers--then they are fine. If they view some form of government other than democracy as most desirable, then they are latent revolutionaries, and belong neither in the military or this country, period.

Comment #171 - Posted by: Barry Cooper at November 9, 2009 8:10 AM

Rereading that, it sounded a lot like a moral judgment. Did I offend anyone? That was my goal. Please give me feedback so I know I succeeded. Any old insult will do.

Please then tell me why we should tolerate people who are unwilling to tolerate us, and who hate us so violently they want to kill us and overturn our system of government, which is so generous they can spread their radicalism more or less openly.

What does a smiley face look like with a noose on it? Maybe we will one day find out, if they win.

Comment #172 - Posted by: Barry Cooper at November 9, 2009 8:15 AM

Barry

Here's an insult from George Washington Harris in "Blown Up with Soda": "cussed, palaverin, inyun-eatin Yankee pedlar."

Sadly, you have to first convince the fanatic that religious freedom is a good thing (be careful, I've heard tales of "post-modernist" philosophy professors teaching this). Then you can go on to make arguments that democracy is the best way to foster religious freedom.

Comment #173 - Posted by: Prole at November 9, 2009 8:43 AM

I don't have to convince such people of anything. We have rules: if they don't accept the rules in principle, we show them the door.

This is only complicated for people for whom all morality--once it steps beyond the absolute demand for absolute tolerance--is problematic.

These problems have solutions. Our leaders are just, in general, moral midgets with no backbone. They have been programmed that way, and are onlcy responding to the implicit demands of the swathe of our populace that has been taught that evicerating the ideals on which our nation was founded--and on which it has thrived--constitutes virtue.

Now, just who would benefit from reducing the American people to an uncritical mass of conformists for whom repeating slogans counts as rational thought?

As it happens, I happen to be reading about Horizontal Propaganda at this moment. Who was the Master, the Guru? Chairman Mao.

It's later than many of you realize.

This tragedy, here--the soldiers and CrossFitters who were killed--were killed by a failure of common sense only made possible by a political education that was disguised.

Comment #174 - Posted by: Barry Cooper at November 9, 2009 9:01 AM

I don't have to convince such people of anything. We have rules: if they don't accept the rules in principle, we show them the door.

This is only complicated for people for whom all morality--once it steps beyond the absolute demand for absolute tolerance--is problematic.

These problems have solutions. Our leaders are just, in general, moral midgets with no backbone. They have been programmed that way, and are onlcy responding to the implicit demands of the swathe of our populace that has been taught that evicerating the ideals on which our nation was founded--and on which it has thrived--constitutes virtue.

Now, just who would benefit from reducing the American people to an uncritical mass of conformists for whom repeating slogans counts as rational thought?

As it happens, I happen to be reading about Horizontal Propaganda at this moment. Who was the Master, the Guru? Chairman Mao.

It's later than many of you realize.

This tragedy, here--the soldiers and CrossFitters who were killed--were killed by a failure of common sense only made possible by a political education that was disguised.

Comment #175 - Posted by: Barry Cooper at November 9, 2009 9:01 AM

Here's a nice link of a coreligionist, from Killeen, stating his understanding for Hassan, and lack of sympathy for those killed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npAvM-VWwhc&feature=player_embedded

Go to www.jihadwatch.org Read some actually unbiased commentary, that considers the MURDER of innocent Americans more important than political correctness.

To be clear, not all Muslims are un-American, but it is categorically STUPID to argue that Muslims are innocent simply because they haven't killed anyone, yet. We have to use our brains.

It's the same as the Cold War. Not all leftists were Communist agents, but quite often where there was smoke there was fire. People we suspect do not need to be in the middle of the system. We don't necessarily need to arrest them or deport them, but I do think we need--consistently--to err on the side of caution.

In the one case, we risk inconveniencing people. In the other, we risk what we got here.

It can happen again, unless we start exercising common sense.

Comment #176 - Posted by: Barry Cooper at November 9, 2009 9:38 AM

One in the hopper. Net is you all need to read the last four posts or so from Jihad Watch.

As an exercise in cognitive dissonance, then go to CNN.com--I just did, to be sure, not that I needed to look--and note what could have been said, and wasn't./

That is what scrubbing looks like. Nominally, the same set of facts are on display, but the INTERPRETATION varies completely.

Goebbels insisted on exactitude in facts--although of course some were simply flushed down memory holes. Where his propaganda entered was in the interpretation. This is how it works. Propagandists don't share key details with you, then insist on an interpretation consistent with the facts they do provide you.

It's no different than them calling the Public Option competition. It is competition. That is accurate. What they don't tell you, is that their stated goal is to ELIMINATE competition. This is just the means--the politically salable means.

Comment #177 - Posted by: Barry Cooper at November 9, 2009 9:55 AM

Here's another freaking one: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,572998,00.html

This guy needs to be deported. Period. This is not complicated.

Comment #178 - Posted by: Barry Cooper at November 9, 2009 9:59 AM

Re: Barry's vehemence.
Barry can be quite pleasant to talk with, he just comes off as an a-hole because he's got strong opinions which he's able to back up very well. Don't hate the guy because he has strong opinions.

Greg:
To answer your original question about giving a definition of goodness. "That which is morally admirable." Evil would be its opposite, morally objectionable or wrong.
Morality is not a function of religion. Modern sociology and psychology has discovered that all groups of people and base their morality on five universal concepts: harm/care, fairness, in-group loyalty, respect for authority and purity. This template may manifest in different ways, depending on a group's need, but they form a basis for morality that is local to the group in question.
This would be the part where Barry Cooper starts complaining about moral relativity, but it's not necessary. Here in the US, our Constitution and other laws are based on that moral template and if someone acts against those laws, we can say that such a person acted immorally. We can also judge how grossly a person violated the letter or spirit of said law and comment on the degree of evil that person committed. To return to the topic at hand, Maj. Hassan committed evil by breaking the law, which was based on a template of morality. He did harm to people in his in-group, unfairly, with utter disregard for authority. No gods necessary there, except for the one that he tried to use to justify his evil actions to himself.
And to cut you off at the pass, no, the moral template didn't come from god. It came about through natural selection. We see similar templates in all groups of social animals. It appears that having a built-in template for rules of behavior helps groups of organisms to survive.

Your second question, about a society that eliminated all belief in God, is a straw man argument. But I'll indulge your question, because I think my answer is at least as amusing as your question was ridiculous. The Society of American Atheists is one such society, and they're doing quite well. Not a single one of them has blown himself up or gunned down innocent people in the name of skepticism. More to the point, that such a society doesn't exist in the context that you intended, is no more reason to believe that a god exists than atrocities committed in the name of a god are reason to believe that a god doesn't exist.

With answer to your final question, I'd first like you to step back and use your ability to reason. Just because somebody else doesn't have a complete answer does not mean that your answer is correct. Your answer, that God created everything, dodges the initial question and doesn't go into nearly as much detail--details that have practical value to the rest of humanity-- as the rational, scientific answer.
To further expand on this, in your response to Mr. Johnson, you said that you can see everything God made, but you can't see the Big Bang Theory. Sure, but you can see the result of the Big Bang, just as you claim to have seen everything that God made. The difference is that the Big Bang Theory is backed up by evidence that you can measure, quantify and understand. And you can apply that understanding in ways that can directly benefit society. In your response to Mike, you assume that the universe has a beginning and an end, but that is yet to be determined, it could very well be infinite. And finally, you're right intelligent design does require an intelligent designer, but even a little research will show you mountains of evidence that life--and the universe-- was not designed, but changed over time in accordance with natural laws.
The bit at the end there, about immeasurable intelligence and all that is a circular argument. In order to believe, you have to believe? No, sir, I require evidence in order to believe and you don't appear to have any.

Comment #179 - Posted by: Nick Wise at November 9, 2009 11:21 AM

Barry 177,

Don't think you can "deport" an American citizen - you might have more luck trying to "transport" him to Van Diemen's Land. Put the prick to work! (in 150 years his descendants will hold 2/3 olympic swimming records).

Comment #180 - Posted by: Prole at November 9, 2009 12:05 PM

Nick,

The evidence that God exists is all around you brother. You have chosen to ignore it, and that is a choice God will honor. Just don't blame Him on Judgement day when you exclaim, "Where was the proof?" God has chosen His way of revealing it to you, and you are free to accept it, or not. Just don't expect Him to force you to live with Him forever after you have chosen to live without Him for now.
-----------------------

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man — and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. (Rom 1:18-25)


Comment #181 - Posted by: Greg/M2 at November 9, 2009 12:32 PM

Nick,

The evidence is all around you. You simply chose to ignore it. See Romans 1:18-25.

Comment #182 - Posted by: Greg/M2 at November 9, 2009 12:34 PM

Ah, legalities. Then we jail them for sedition. It's still a crime.

BTW, now that I've had a large, large margarita I am prepared to acknowledge the literary depth of your insult. It still isn't as good as conservaretard toon, but worth mentioning.

Nick,

As tempted as I am to engage here, I will simply ask that you read my essay on Goodness at lulu.com. It's free, and I think I labeled it "start here". I'm personally neither a Christian nor an atheist. I just don't know. Neither do you. Neither does Greg.

As I have stated before, though (OK, I'll indulge myself just a little), the state of modern physics is we literally can't find the universe. Our best guess on the quantum physics level is that observers create reality. This was John von Neumann's opinion. On a macrocosmic level, we can't figure out how to get gravity to cooperate. We have 3/4ths of a unified field theory, and there it stands.

But in my own view, the proven fact of Non-locality (at least in a 4 dimensional universe) has falsified the Einsteinian materialistic paradigm (in a field, energy=matter, which amounts to materialism), so that we must look first to Quantum physics. And quantum physics has no problem with "spooky action across a distance", as I think Einstein--thoroughly disgusted--termed the idea.

So the question must always be asked: what do you mean by God? What do we want? Connection with our world through prayers, and eternal life. Neither of these are precluded by the best guesses we have right now in the physical sciences.

Comment #183 - Posted by: Barry Cooper at November 9, 2009 4:24 PM

Second post: Hassan's actions as psy-op. This guy was a shrink. He was tasked to go over to Afghanistan to deliver what amounted to psychiatric house-calls, in support of any troops suffering stress related psychological ailments.

His "team", obviously, is devastasta ted. Regardless of the reckless stupidity of the mass media, ordinary soldiers have to ask to what extent we have Islamic Fifth Columnists in our midst.

This is a Psychological Operation of the first order. I think it will fail, since we are not cowards, but the idea was sound. Psyops are always about mobilizing fear and doubt in your enemy.

It does not help that our director of Homeland Security, whose job is to be somewhat paranoid, has taken it as her task to make sure no one asks any uncomfortable questions of Muslims. Obviously, she seems to believe, the larger danger is white, Christian Americans, not radicalized, integrated Muslims.

This, of course, is a common pattern for Leftists, and one of the principle reasons people like me often accuse of very simply not liking this country. In point of fact, if you own a gun and go to church, they probably DON'T like you.

Final note: we see complaints about our wars being about killing Muslims. You know what? We lost some 4,000 American lives in Iraq trying to prevent a civil war in which Muslims would have killed Muslims. In Afghanistan, our allies and enemies are both Muslims.

So for those who suggest our wars are against Muslims, that is just ignorant.

Comment #184 - Posted by: Barry Cooper at November 9, 2009 4:32 PM

Mr. Cooper,

What does it mean to know? You mentioned that you do not know if there is a God. Fair enough. But I do know. How do I know? I see the evidence of His existence all around me. In fact, He lives in me.

It is not so much a matter of God popping His head into our view, and proclaiming "Hay, here I am, I'm God." He did that and people still chose not to believe. Nor is it a matter of Him standing in front of us and performing miracles, or flat out proclaiming to us "I AM." He did that to, and people still chose not to believe.
Nor is it a matter of Him resurrecting Himself, and appearing before us, as He did that as well.

Some people know Him, others ignore Him. It has always been that way from what I have read, and I am OK with that.

Peace,
Greg

Comment #185 - Posted by: Greg/M2 at November 9, 2009 5:40 PM

RobbyH #159 wrote,

“This was a deliberate act to shape a political outcome and there terrorism, not a crime.”

This seems exactly wrong on several counts.

First, people here and on the media show a great deal of certainty about whether Hasan or his act was terrorism. This comes even from legislators and attorneys who should know better. First, we need a definition of terrorism, and best would be a statute defining it. Here are two from US Department of Justice, FBI:

>>There is no single, universally accepted definition of terrorism. Terrorism is defined in the Code of Federal Regulations as “...the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.” (28 C.F.R. Section 0.85)

>>The FBI further describes terrorism as either domestic or international, depending on the origin, base, and objectives of the terrorist organization. For the purpose of this report, the FBI uses the following definitions of terrorism:

>>Domestic terrorism refers to activities that involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any state; appear to be intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; to influence the policy of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States. [18 U.S.C. § 2331(5)]

The first sentence only states that the general public and the media are confused. Definitions have elements, and every element has to be satisfied to establish that the definition fits.

What Hasan did was criminal, a necessary element of terrorism. (This is exactly contrary to RobbyH.) The fact that it was horrible, and multi-count are irrelevant.

Hasan was driven by insanity, brought on by his religion and his Imams and done in the name of that religion. It was suicidal. It was done in objection to being ordered to Iraq or Afghanistan, in part because it was personally inconvenient to go and in part because he had determined that the War on Terror (which Bush couldn’t define and Obama redefined to nothing) was a war on Islam. He was a mass murdered, and the most extreme of religious extremists. But rightly or wrongly, each of these observations is irrelevant to the definition of terrorism.

What is missing is how what he did was, or possibly appeared to be, done to coerce a government or civilian population. (RobbyH simply declared it to be a fact.) If that coercion can be established, his act was as a minimum a lone act of terrorism.

Of course, the courts might not agree.

When words are used to mean whatever we want them to mean at the time, or define them on the fly, it’s Alice in Wonderland. (As the saying goes. It’s actually Humpty Dumpty in Through the Looking Glass, to continue in the persnickety mode). Either that, or it’s in the courts. Court’s are notorious for doing what the want, law be damned.

Comment #186 - Posted by: Jeff Glassman at November 10, 2009 5:32 AM

Jeff, thoughtful post.

I agree that it isn’t clear yet how the state would go about establishing (B) of 18 U.S.C. § 2331(5) in the case of Hasan. I’m not sure whether you interpret (B)(i-iii) as setting out three separate individually sufficient elements, or three elements that must all be satisfied before (B) (and the offence a whole) is established.


Definition under: 18 U.S.C. § 2331(5)(with my commentary):

(5) the term “domestic terrorism” means activities that—

(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State; (MANDATORY)

(B) appear to be intended— (MANDATORY)

(ANY ONE OF THE THREE WILL DO?)
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;

(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (OR***)

(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and (AND)

(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States. (MANDATORY)

- The use of the “or” after the semicolon in (B)(ii) suggests that any of (B)(i-iii) would be sufficient to satisfy (B). If (B)(ii) had concluded with “; and”, then I think that each of(i-iii) would be mandatory.

A New York statute uses much the same language and makes it clear that “, or” is the logical operator that connects each of the three mens rea elements:

S 490.25 Crime of terrorism (with my parenthetical notes).
1. A person is guilty of a crime of terrorism when, [1] with intent to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, [2] influence the policy of a unit of government by intimidation or coercion, or [OR***] [3] affect the conduct of a unit of government by murder, assassination or kidnapping, he or she commits a specified offense.

In the case of Hasan the state might still not be able to meet any one of (B)(i-iii) of 18 U.S.C. § 2331(5). Although intimidation or coercion of a civilian population seems to significantly broaden the scope of activity that would satisfy (B) when considered in isolation from (ii) and (iii). You could likely fit mafia intimidation in there if you could establish the impugned activity was directed not at a single business owner but at several businesses on a block or in an area, or their customers, or neighours.

The use of “appear” in the preamble to (B) suggests that the state will face a lower burden of proof with respect to the “motive” elements of the offence. The use of “appear” suggests an “objective” mens rea rather than a “subjective” mens rea, so that the state would have to prove only that “a reasonable person” would conclude that Hasan acted with any of the motives in (B)(i-iii), rather than having to prove that in fact Hasan himself actually had one of those motives.

I wonder if the ubiquity of mass media(s) might make it easier for the state to establish that what in the past would have seemed like a local, narrowly focussed act of violence is “objectively” an act “to intimidate or coerce a civilian population”.

Comment #187 - Posted by: Prole at November 10, 2009 10:37 AM

I view it as an act of war by an enemy combatant. He was a Muslim, and vehemently apposed to America and its "War on Terror." He apposed going to Iraq/Afghanistan because he would be assisting in the killing of "his" fellow Muslims.

He was an army of one, fighting for what he believed were his people, against what he believed were his enemies. He was not insane, and I believe he acted very deliberately. If we say he was insane for killing what he believed where his enemies, then every single warrior that has ever fought would have to be labeled as such, and that is just not the case.

Treason, plain and simple. He deserves death.

Comment #188 - Posted by: Greg/M2 at November 11, 2009 6:40 AM

Too much publicity on the gunman, not enough on those that died!

Comment #189 - Posted by: MarkV at November 11, 2009 7:04 AM

Wow from what has surfaced the past few days on this guy I wonder if some of the posters have changed their stance?

Comment #190 - Posted by: tracy at November 11, 2009 3:19 PM
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