Shoe throwing...I hear that's quite a put down in the arab world...
Really though, with the secret service and all that, what else do you have other than shoes, pens, chairs, and fake teeth? Bush must practice or something because he totally avoided those things!

There are no reports of journalists having thrown shoes at Saddam Hussain, presumably because Hussain was much more "respected."

The media report that the incident was "amazing." The media are correct.

Even though it was just shoes, I can't believe that guy is still walking

Excellent video. I was honestly surprised by his reflexes.

I've been seeing parodies of that circulating around "the internets." My favorites are the
1) the insurgents with RPGs where the rockets have been replaced by shoes, and
2) Bush as Neo dodging shoes in bullet-time.
There are also quite a few comics floating around about this incident.

One question. Where was the Secret Service during all this? I see some suited fellows running out of the back room, but it looks like the attacker gets dropped by another reporter.

I've heard that the attacker could be sentenced to 15 years in prison. That seems a little excessive, if you ask me.

This is the elected leader of the USA and this clown gets support in his country and laughs in ours?

No one threw shoes at Saddam because no one would ever see them again...
Speaking of which, I wonder if he got them back...
It'd be pretty sweet to be known as the guy who threw his shoes at Bush though.

Sevan, your movie will do well. Thanks for letting us watch it early!

Freddy C, dude it looks like you are getting cut, are you zoning now?

Have Fun, Train Hard,

Billy

So me and a friend decided to make up a crossfit workout for fun.

21-15-9

Kettlebell Swing @ 55lbs
pull-ups
pushups
500m Row each time

It was the closest to throwing up I have ever been doing crossfit. I think I will stop trying to come up with new ways to meet Pukie and stick to the girls ;)

Hari,

Although your conclusion is attractive, I think it's a bit of a leap in this case. It could very well be that nobody threw a shoe at Saddam because if they had, they would have been tortured and executed. On second thought, that could be why you put the word "respected" in quotes--because Hussein's power to torture and kill was the trait that was respected. If that's the case, then I would have to agree...although it's a virtual tautology.

But regardless of the relative amounts of whatever definition of respect you use, it definitely qualifies as amazing.

Bush must do CrossFit with those reflexes!

wish it was our rest day

"All I can report, is that it is a size 10."... classic.

Good reflexes.

Bush is a great American.

Heather is an inspiration, truly showing all the things you can excel at with crossfit. Its also nice to see another competitive cheerleading doing crossfit!

Erik

"Freddy C, dude it looks like you are getting cut, are you zoning now?"

Comment #9 - Posted by: Billy

I just watched him down some In-N-Out, fries included, and wash it all down with at least 3 beers.

LOL

How do you say, "Don't taze me, bro!" in Arabic?

Level 1 cert in Charlotte was great. Thanks to all the instructors for a great weekend. You guys are awesome... and thanks Coach A...

Nice cert.! The instructors did a very good job with around 70 students!

Andy, the Sunday morning workout w/ you and the med. balls was a blast and the most fun I had the entire weekend.

TJ, nice talking to a fellow traditionalist.

I think that's the only cool thing Bush has ever done haha.

I don't even like Bush, but i kind of feel bad for him though :\

Hadn't see the vid, cool. The Pres' reflexes were impressive. As previously stated - where's the secret service?

The fact that a shoe being thrown was the most exciting thing in Iraq in recent memory tells a story.

During my year there, I lived in hope that it might be this way, but really never imagined there could be so much change so fast. Standing in the Al Faw palace when GEN Patreus took the helm of the Multi National Forces Iraq, I pondered the weight on his shoulders. It appeared then that the fate of both nations hung in the balance - how would he manage? What would he do? With the one-two punch of Patreus and Odierno's leadership, backed by the unflappable President Bush (did many things poorly, but toed the line in Iraq), the US Army defeated AQI, and the US Congress' desperate attempt to force a Viet Nam like defeat, at the same time.

Incredible. Paul

thank goodness, my legs need the rest lol. i love me some crossfit!!

Like him or not, agree with him or not, this should be like the sibling rule. We can make fun of him, beat the crap out of him, because he is one of ours. However, come hell or high water, concur or not, no one else can mess with "ours," or they will pay. Support/dismiss the disrespect of one of ours(particularly one we elected and sent as our highest representative, and let's not forget majority vote rules whether we agree or not), and we leave the floodgates open.

I like George Bush (though I haven't always understood him), and I trust he tried to do what was best. I am saddened that this is the type of thing he will be remembered for after years of sacrifice and service for us.

I don't care who you are. That was funny.

It is scary that someone with hostile intent could get so close to the President.

comment #24
sacrifice and service?! Only our troops did that. Bless them
Bush sent our troops there but avoided his service during the vietnam era.

He may go down as one of the worst presidents ever (not to mention on of the most unintelligent), but no one should ever doubt his "Ninja" reflexes.

Paul,
Good to hear from you. As always thank you for your service.

Cyndi,
Well said. I'm sure now that we have the 'right' person in office the media will close ranks w/America. At least for the short term.

Adam,
Its funny because of it's futility. Like the Black Knight protecting the bridge in Monty Python's "Holy Grail". Come back here, I can still spit on you. Or throw my shoe. Now go away before I fart in your general direction.
Freedom is a terrible daily decision if you've never had it before.

Awesome time at the Cert. Really enjoyed all of it. A little bummed about not ending with Fight Gone Bad. TJ, is there anywhere we can access or buy those photos I saw you taking all weekend? That'd be great.

Cheers to all us new Level 1 Certs!

Honestly, who throws a shoe?

9 PM update:

Being test subject for the Cert at CF One World made me question and critique my own flawed technique. On the social side, I got to see people I haven't seen in a while and meet some I haven't met yet. Bonus that I got to BS and clown around with the big names at CFHQ.

Went back at the end of the day after grading and got to see a sneak preview of Sevan's Crossfit movie "Every Second Counts". Quality film! Anyone who likes crossfitting will LOVE the movie. (And don't bother asking...cause I was instructed to give NO SPOILERS!)

Freddy, I'll see you again on the 16th at the next Level 2.

Went back to Los Altos and made up today's WOD with:

"Fat, Uncoordinated, and Slow Cindy"

while wearing 40# extra weight perform
20 minutes as many rounds possible of:
5 Chest-to-Bar Pull-ups
10 Ring Push-ups
15 Back Squats @ 1/2 BW

I wore 2-20# weight vests, and since I weigh 90 kg (198#), I used 45 kg (99#) for back squats. The back squat does NOT include the 2 weight vests.

Total: 8 rounds + 3 Pull-ups

What a killer! All pull-ups and back squats were unbroken (meaning I didn't break from the bars). The Ring Push-ups got ugly after round 3. My last round was 3, 2, 2, 2 push-ups, and I was SHAKING. I was SURE I would be able to get at least 1/2 of my regular Cindy score (22). That thing killed me just as much as the non-weighted version.

Wow. What a day. I feel blessed to have Crossfit in my life! :)

I'm looking at some of the results for Mary and Cindy...I see some pretty high #s for cindy of rounds...30, 33, etc... 19 rounds for Mary...pretty impressive. Wonder what the body weight for those folks were and how long they've been crossfitting.

Then I saw 42...really??? 42 rounds??? that's about 28.5 or so seconds per round of 5 pullups, 10 pushups, 15 squats, no rest right???

:-)

awesome Austin Powers quote #31, LOL.

Since 911, there have been, COUNT THEM..."0" attacks on American soil. I support president Bush, and believe he has led us well in the fight against Islam.

President Bush....
...HooYAH president Bush!

great cert in charlotte!! pat, chuck, andy, mike g, bobbi, maggie, NICOLE, joe, tj thank yall for pushing all of us!!

also thanks Coach A for being so hospitable!!

#35 do you really mean 'he has led us well in the fight against Islam'?

President Bush has never claimed to be fighting against 'Islam'. 'Terrorism'-yes, 'Radical Islam'-I'm not sure he has ever used the term 'fighting against Radical Islam' but maybe, so...

but I don't recall him EVER claiming to be 'fighting against Islam'. That would be a big-time miswording...and President Bush knows A LOT better than that. We should as well.

Though I am just getting started on reading the nutrition info and watching full videos from my Crossfit Journal Subscription, this recent study about managing diabetes sure seems consistent with the messages Crossfit has been putting out for years, based on journal archives. Now the challenge for me – implementation! Add that challenge to the list, today’s more immediate challenges are walking, standing, and any movement involving legs – which are still torn to shreds from my first “Fight Gone Bad” on Saturday; it feels like my fight gone bad was with Muay Thai champion.

NY Times Coverage of study - http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/19/health/19diet.html?_r=1

Full study results
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/300/23/2742

Just a heads up...this post is connected to Comment #36 in response to #35 and is kind of long. copied below was our president's response 6 days after the September 11th attacks.

Proud to a Muslim, proud to be an American, proud to be IN America, proud brother of a United States Marine who served our country IN Iraq...proud to connect with the crossfit community!

I'll say one last thing...God doesn't condone unjust acts carried out by ANYONE regardless of what the one carrying out the unjust act claims to believe. In the end justice will prevail.

Omar

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010917-11.v.smil

"Islam is Peace" Says President
Remarks by the President at Islamic Center of Washington, D.C.
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you all very much for your hospitality. We've just had a -- wide-ranging discussions on the matter at hand. Like the good folks standing with me, the American people were appalled and outraged at last Tuesday's attacks. And so were Muslims all across the world. Both Americans and Muslim friends and citizens, tax-paying citizens, and Muslims in nations were just appalled and could not believe what we saw on our TV screens.

These acts of violence against innocents violate the fundamental tenets of the Islamic faith. And it's important for my fellow Americans to understand that.

The English translation is not as eloquent as the original Arabic, but let me quote from the Koran, itself: In the long run, evil in the extreme will be the end of those who do evil. For that they rejected the signs of Allah and held them up to ridicule.

The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam. That's not what Islam is all about. Islam is peace. These terrorists don't represent peace. They represent evil and war.

When we think of Islam we think of a faith that brings comfort to a billion people around the world. Billions of people find comfort and solace and peace. And that's made brothers and sisters out of every race -- out of every race.

America counts millions of Muslims amongst our citizens, and Muslims make an incredibly valuable contribution to our country. Muslims are doctors, lawyers, law professors, members of the military, entrepreneurs, shopkeepers, moms and dads. And they need to be treated with respect. In our anger and emotion, our fellow Americans must treat each other with respect.

Women who cover their heads in this country must feel comfortable going outside their homes. Moms who wear cover must be not intimidated in America. That's not the America I know. That's not the America I value.

I've been told that some fear to leave; some don't want to go shopping for their families; some don't want to go about their ordinary daily routines because, by wearing cover, they're afraid they'll be intimidated. That should not and that will not stand in America.

Those who feel like they can intimidate our fellow citizens to take out their anger don't represent the best of America, they represent the worst of humankind, and they should be ashamed of that kind of behavior.

This is a great country. It's a great country because we share the same values of respect and dignity and human worth. And it is my honor to be meeting with leaders who feel just the same way I do. They're outraged, they're sad. They love America just as much as I do.

I want to thank you all for giving me a chance to come by. And may God bless us all.

To be completely irreverent and to lighten the mood after the last post, I submit to you:

http://www.cracked.com/blog/shoe-attack-lesson-bush-mortal-kombat-reflexes/

More eloquent than anything I can pen, and a damn sight funnier, too.

You all are mentioning his reflexes in dodging the shoe -- but there was something more significant. Someone approached him in a protective gesture soon after the 2nd shoe was thrown, and Bush shook his head "No it's okay" and gestured the guy back with his arm. *That* was an excellent reaction.

It's a trope about the soles of the feet being insults in the Arab world. I've never asked any older arabs about it, but every younger arab I've asked has responded with befuddlement when I told him about this belief that showing the soles of the feet is an insult. It's no longer relevant.

ok, I can't help but laugh about the whole thing,.. I guess even the president finds it humorous, judging by his comment about the shoe size. There was a valid aforementioned point about respecting foreign sovereigns. Nevertheless before judging our shoe-hurling journalist protester, I would like to point out that there is a very real possibility that a great deal of this guy's family, friends and friends' friends have probably died over the last five years. It's very likely that his financial situaiton has gone from whatever it was before the war to completely dire and desperate.

To put this in perspective, if I was a reporter in a foreign country and George Bush had been responsible for "freeing" us from our dictator (as much as I disliked him), but my country had turned into dog feces in the process and I had lost cousins, aunts, uncles, and friends because as a consequence my country had been turned into a battle ground between terrorists and the United States, I might be a little peeved myself. Why? Because I love my family more than I care wheather or not a crazy dictator is running his "Good morning Crazy Dictator" show every Sunday morning on "national television". I might even be upset enough to throw a shoe or two myself, especially if the reason for the invasion was a mistaken suspicion that my country had been harboring WMD's even when the UN inspectors had attested about fifty times that there were none. My point really is this: when it is the blood of your own family that is spilled it is a lot harder to keep your temper. Before judging someone it is often better to find out the specifics of a person's life and to try to understand their particular situation and related reaction. We know the most superficial details of the story. There was an Iraqi reporter in a news conference that took his shoes off and threw them at our president. Was this guy an Islamic fundamentalist? Was he actually born in Iraq? Is he really a terrorist or a frusterated Iraqi citizen? What are his reasons for doing what he did? Nick Wise mentioned that he might get 15 years in jail. Was this guy aware of the possible consequences and just decided to throw his shoes anyways? Was he so pissed off that he understood that the worst he could do to Bush was a tread mark to the forehead and that the worst that could happen to himself would be getting stoned to death or shot by seven secret service agents simultaneously and just decided to take a chance anyways? I for one would be curious to know what the guy had to say as to why he would risk so much retribution for throwing a shoe! Maybe he is crazy, or maybe he lost his little daughter to a suicide bomber and before he had a normal life, even if he didn't have the freedom to throw shoes at foreign soverigns. Maybe we should just cane him 30 times or maybe he needs the death sentence. Perhaps he really needs to see a psychologist. More information is neccessary before dispensing judgement.

I second the notion of closing ranks when someone abuses our own. You can be as vicious as you want to yourself and your friends, but the minute someone else steps out of line you'll be the first up in arms. It ought to be no different when it comes to our head of state in a foreign land. It cuts right to the heart of our unique feelings of "American Exceptionalism" that are continually being defined and refined. We as a nation are the result of an egalitarian experiment in personal liberty that has no equal in history. We're the product of millions of divergent wills and impulses all channeled through a regimented process in order to produce a civil society by the people, for the people.

That our constitutional republic rose up and dethroned a sea-going colonial master to create a more perfect union used to mean something. It shouldn't be contrary to popular culture to loathe the country that gave you a homeland. That our initial attempts at liberty and equality for all took more time than expected to be codified and widely accepted is a testament to the perseverance of our efforts. The widespread dissatisfaction at the speed at which our noble effort to give Iraqis a taste of all this appalls me. Bush has done an admirable job in a lot of ways while still leaving a lot to be desired in others. Even if you won't rally around the cause, you rally around the flag when someone tries to burn it.

in case you wanted more of a definition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism

"The United States and other nations did nothing to deserve or invite this threat, but we will do everything to defeat it."

"Americans understand the costs of conflict because we have paid them in the past."

W. 17 March 2003 Address to the Nation

"With the one-two punch of Patreus and Odierno's leadership, backed by the unflappable President Bush (did many things poorly, but toed the line in Iraq), the US Army defeated AQI, and the US Congress' desperate attempt to force a Viet Nam like defeat, at the same time.

Incredible. Paul"

Paul, well said sir.

Cindy (#24), I agree with the rest of your sentiment but I have to respectfully disagree with you on one thing. What you, I, and many others will more remember is; "If our enemies dare to strike us, they and all who have aided them will face fearful consequences."

I certainly had never heard a U.S. President say anything like that in my lifetime. Granted there were plenty of mistakes made along the way, but I am more than glad that we, with the kind of leadership Paul mentioned, stood behind those words.

Q: Who throws a shoe? (#31)
A: A frustrated, weak minded woman.

20 min indoor bike ride. Getting back to the swing of things after a long hiatus.

#41 Amadreus

In my opinion the shoe-thrower is fortunate that he didn't get a Hollow Point center mass by the Secret Service! Especially with the second shoe, and not knowing what was being thrown they would have been justified in their response.

This is just a portrayal of the wider socio-politico-religious conundrum that "We" as a predominantly Judeo-Christian nation face in the world. As Paul said earlier, the fact that this is the most newsworthy footage coming from Iraq should elate the Iraqi's, and freedom loving people worldwide, but many make this deranged reporter their hero. Whether he was Radical Islam or "Peaceful" Islam, makes no difference, the Arab Media are all sympathizers with the Terrorists throughout the Middle-East, as are many of the citizens there. Can you say "no-win situation"?

If I were so inclined to throw shoes at Bush I would have included the following: "Good riddance, you liberal trash RINO." Really, Bush was the most liberal president since Clinton. And the worst president...since Clinton.

I wonder if that Iraqi reporter realizes that only a few years ago such behavior would have gotten him beheaded by Saddam's regime?

He is throwing shoes at the very man who is responsible for leading the effort to free the Iraqi people.

The below quote seems to fit:

"I have the neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the very blanket of freedom that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide that freedom"

COL Nathan Jessup
"A Few Good Men"

#45 Jay M

I love the "hollow point center mass" comment, and that is so true.

One issue I will take with you is the idea of "peaceful" Islam. Having studied and travelled in the Middle East, I see an attempt by "Moderate" Muslims to be peaceful, and most in this country have "compromised" to accept our peace loving freedom. However, the Q'uran does not teach peace UNLESS a people or nation "reverts" to Islam!! It is a conditional peace and always leads to violence when followed to "the letter". The Muslims here can argue all they want, but they know its true, and were they to carry out their "commission" from Allah in the US, we'd have the same turmoil and violence here, since its obvious most are not reverting to Islam. That day may sadly come if we don't take situations like Mumbai seriously.

Thanks to Pat, Andy, Nicole and Chuck (along with all the other coaches) for a good time in Charlotte. It was an important clarification on what "Good Movement" is and is not. We'll be much more relentless down here in Jacksonville.

You gotta respect how Bush took it all in stride - really dodging the first shoe, then quickly assessing the degree of danger and just putting up a block for the second shoe. Thank God the man is in decent physical shape, but he's gotta have a pretty steady mind too. Impressive. I wonder how other Presidents would have fared? I think Carter would have gotten smacked square in the face, Reagan would have ducked, but he would probably have fallen down in the process. How would our new President have fared?
I like your summation Paul#21. Unflappable, indeed. On many levels.

#1 "Shoe throwing...I hear that's quite a
put-down in the arab world..."

As opposed to it be quite complimentary in the West?

Okay...Santa is gonna put coal in my stocking...I have been a bad boy. I generally do a 5/2 split for workouts & try to double up at least 3 of the days but I didn't workout Friday.
So instead if rest I shall do both Mary & Cindy today...and my g/f wont mind.

I am proud to have supported our President for the past eight years. I haven't always agreed with him, oh far from it. But I do believe that he kept us safe and prevented us from being attacked again after those cowardly bastards struck on 9-11. Anyone on these boards who has even a little bit of inside information regarding modern military intelligence and ops knows what I mean. That fact in and of itself is worthy of some thankfulness and respect on the part of the American people.

Well done Mr. President...and nice reflexes by the way :-)

#5 TDH

Elected?!

Couldn't take the rest day today, knowing that Thursday Santa, my two boys and my wife will make sure I stay away from the gym. So, Cindy yesterday: 22 rds, as rx'd; Mary today: 15 rds, as rx'd. Both good gains.

I'm hoping Santa brings me rings.

M/39/140

#47
That's funny. I was just watching that last night...and I am inclined to agree.

Did the 800 yesterday. Still a day behind.
Will try Cindy today....maybe Mary tonight in the garage.

For those of you in the North...just a little note. I think bingo will appreciate.

Friday morning was supposed to be an Open House where I work. My kids were excited, but to our chagrin we had about 1/2-3/4 inches of ice on everything. Therefore, I had to take the van to work, since the car was outside & covered in ice.
Well, my 6 yo son, being the analytical one, thought that since Dad had to take the van, he would make sure the rest of the family could get to the Open House. He decided to "de-ice" the car.....using a shovel. His heart was in the right place...but not his head.

But, he is a boy...so am I...so I completely understand.

Happy icy holidays!
Dave

If you think that's funny you should be sent to live in Iraq or Iran where you can fit in!!! It's sad to see people mock our president on a site which seems to go out of it's way to honor those who've fallen in service to this great country. SAD!!

Chief Warrant Officer Christian

'However, the Q'uran does not teach peace UNLESS a people or nation "reverts" to Islam!! It is a conditional peace and always leads to violence when followed to "the letter". The Muslims here can argue all they want, but they know its true, and were they to carry out their "commission" from Allah in the US, we'd have the same turmoil and violence here, since its obvious most are not reverting to Islam.'-#48

What about our President's comments below...which he has stuck to and will continue to stick to. Is he not aware of what the Qur'an says, or is he wrong to say that Islam is peace.

I quote the President 'These acts of violence against innocents violate the fundamental tenets of the Islamic faith. And it's important for my fellow Americans to understand that.
The English translation is not as eloquent as the original Arabic, but let me quote from the Koran, itself: In the long run, evil in the extreme will be the end of those who do evil. For that they rejected the signs of Allah and held them up to ridicule.

The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam. That's not what Islam is all about. Islam is peace. These terrorists don't represent peace. They represent evil and war.

When we think of Islam we think of a faith that brings comfort to a billion people around the world. Billions of people find comfort and solace and peace. And that's made brothers and sisters out of every race -- out of every race.'
-President Bush

He's not Muslim. He would argue that 'Islam is Peace'. He also quotes from the Qur'an.

So what do we make of the President's comments? Some may respond without thinking it through. They may think he's just saying that, but I would disagree, given his history.

To believe that ALL of the Muslims in America are 'comprimising' their religion and not following it to the letter and taking up arms in a violent fashion to carry out a supposed 'commision' to convert every one who is not Muslim is absurd. If you believe that you should talk to President Bush. He doesn't believe that. Islam is still the fastest growing religion in the world. That is no reason to fear. If you do fear that it is probably because you have taken to the idea that the true face of Islam is not peace and that violence is the way of Islam. Again, the president of the United States of America knows that is not true, says that is not true, and doesn't want the American people to believe that either.

Now, president Bush does understand that the Qur'an is being used to justify some very violent acts. Throughout mankind's history people have used religious texts (The Bible, the Qur'an etc)to justify violence. Let's say there are two kinds of people (people inclined to violence for one reason or another, and people who are not). The people inclined to violence are going to use whatever they can get their hands on to justify their acts of unjust aggression. To be fair they are also going to twist things that are said and take things out of context and use them to justify their acts of unjust aggression.

It is not correct to take bits and pieces of a religious text and use what they want to argue against it. The religious text must be understood comprehensively. And in the end one can come to a conclusion such as President Bush came to.

The Qur'an says that permission is given to fight when one is wronged. It goes on to say that if God did not check one set of people with another there would have been monasteries, churches, synagogues, and Mosques pulled down in which the name of God is commemorated. Why would all of these things be put in the book? So that context can be determined by thinking men and women, and so thinking men and women can come to the correct conclusion.

Last comment...let's say that violence can be defined as physical aggression. Physical aggression can be justified. All throughout the history of mankind people have fought for various causes. Our country would not have been established if it did not fight to establish it's own independence as a nation respecting human worth and human rights. It could have if another nation was not physically aggressive towards it, but that was not the case, so our forefathers had to fight to protect those human rights. That is an example of justified physical aggression. One's physical aggression can only be justified in defense, and that is what the Qur'an is talking about. I believe President Bush knows that, and he wants the American people to understand that as well.

Proud to be Human, proud to be a Muslim, proud to be an American, proud to be in America, and a proud brother of a United States Marine. Can one be proud to be all of those things...yes and in that order.

Omar

p.s. hey it's a rest day ;-) The object of game is to think.

#21 Apolloswabbie - right on. Folks forget that the purpose of a war isn't to defeat the enemy's army, it's to defeat their will to fight. And we've got congressmen and senators on our side fighting that war for the enemy right now.

I have disagreed with a lot of what President Bush has chosen to do, but I'll still support him because he's our president.

It's absolutely shameful how the left has treated president Bush. Like him or not, he's still our president. If a decision is to be made, voice your opinion all you want (respectfully), and when the decision is made to go to war, you *never* undermine our country's ability to win that war.

You all know I despise Barack Obama's ideas and platform, absolutely despise it. But he's our president-elect, and when he is in charge, I'll voice my opinion on his policies. Heck, I honestly think the man is a Socialist, but I won't go out there and say the disgusting things about him that people have said about President Bush. And if he decides to take us to war somewhere I don't agree with, then I'll stand behind his decision and do everything I can to make sure we win that war, and finish the job.

Dave @ Offutt #57:

Priceless!

Omar,

When we went to war with Germany in WW1, there were a number of lynchings of Germans. When we went to war with Japan in WW2, FDR (another Democrat) saw fit to intern ten's of thousands of Japanese Americans.

When we were attacked without provocation or warning on 9/11, by men claiming to speak for Islam, when the streets of Palestine erupted in open celebration, there was no backlash whatever against Islamic Americans, or none that rose above the level of minor inconvenience.

Much of this can be attributed to Bush's leadership. He saw then, and most of us see now, that defeating radical Muslims need not mean defeating ALL Muslims.

At the same time, please justify for me the continuing support of virtually all Islamic clerics throughout the Muslim world for suicide bombing. Can you do it? Please cite Quranic verses, understanding that you are contradicting in so doing the notion of Religion of Peace. And if you can't, then quite obviously these attacks are what they appear to be: the cynical manipulation of ideologically brainwashed children, intended to further the power of gangsters and thugs. As such, they should be roundly denounced by all honorable men. And to the extent they aren't, those men are not honorable.

I am proud of Bush, and proud of what we have accomplished. We created the possibility for self government for 50 million people. We ended a Stalinist (that's fascist, for those of you who are historically illiterate) regime, and prevented Hussein from developing the weapons he freely admitted--when arrested--he had always intended to build.

We accomplished something good, and it is only leftist propaganda that prevents people from seeing this, and celebrating it, as it ought to be celebrated. Investment capital is flowing into Iraq. I saw an ad for Iraqi dinar in USA Today the other day.

We have liars and blackhearted thieves running among us. They are working to steal our self respect, our wealth, and our freedom. They have sabotaged Bush's courageous efforts to follow a common sense foreign policy. They have brought our nation to the brink of bankrupcy, and they are working even now to extend to the extent possible increasing government intrusions into every aspect of our lives.

Americans need to wake up. I am tired of apologizing for our use of common sense in domestic and foreign policy. We need not become decadent like our Western European counterparts, all too many of whom stand for nothing, if it is inconvenient in the slightest.

This bewilderment as to why an Iraqi might be angry enough to throw a shoe at Bush reminds me of one of my favorite quotations:

"It's difficult to convince people that you're killing them for their own good." -- Molly Ivins

Yes, we have sacrificed. Whether or not you agree that the Iraqis have also sacrificed, I think most would agree they have suffered mightily.

After the first shoe was thrown, Bush could have dived down to a fetal position. But Bush stood back up to look at him. That's the reflex I want in an American President.

Well said, matt deminico (as of now #60).

An Iraqi journalist throwing a shoe at President Bush doesn't bother me nearly as bad as an American citizen being disrespectful to the man and office that he holds. It drives me crazy when the media and citizens don't address the President by his title and openly rail against the man. We have the freedom to disagree and openly object to policies and decisions, but the blatant disrespect to the office of the President is unacceptable. If you do it while on active duty, you are unprofessional and breaking the law. Americans have the luxury of showing dissatisfaction with our vote (which many have). Naysayers of this administration be glad that you achieved the "change" that you so dearly desired, but don't disrespect the office of President.

I didn't vote for Mr. Obama, but when he becomes the Commander in Chief, I will obey the lawful orders issued by him and honor the office that he holds whether I like it or not (and I won't disrespect the man or his office). One of the reasons that we fight on foreign soil is to give others the opportunity to live with similar freedoms that we enjoy.

To all that are deployed or have deployed in the past, may you have peace inside this Christmas knowing that you are doing or have done a great service for the grateful and ungrateful people we serve (Americans, Iraqi, and Afghan alike).

#27 Shane

Actually, I know it is easy to trash Bush's intelligence, but he isn't as dumb as people like to say he is. I mean you don't become President as an idiot. I read what some of his standardized test scores were a while back and his SAT score wasn't bad. I think it was mid 1200s or something like that. If I am not mistaken that puts him in the low 90th percentile (or thereabouts). So, he may have his idiot moments recorded more than most, but he is probably more intelligent than most people who say he is unintelligent. Think about how many "whoops" moments you and I would have if 99 percent of what we said was scrutinized and recorded. I consider myself a lot more intelligent than the average bear and it would not be pretty in my case anyway.

I am not a rabid Bush supporter or anything (I generally view elections as choosing the lesser evil) but never criticize much without walking a mile in someone else's shoes.

Also, someone mentioned Bush as having not sacrificed much. I certainly wouldn't want his job during the time he had it.

Thanks Bob and all others serving!

Herm, comment 16, :>)

Have Fun, Train Hard,

Billy

Good thing for that shoe-icider that Cheney wasn't there with his rifle.

I feel sorry for Bush that this happened, but my heart really goes out to Dana Perino....just cuz I think she's hot.

Interesting chat today.
Day 31 of the push-up challenge...all down hill from here. Did 300 today just in case Im iss a few when Santa arrives.
Cheers from a very cold Calgary

Here is the deal. You can like Bush, or you can not like Bush. It doesn't matter. This guy threw a shoe at the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. Politcs END at our borders.
I'm not really upset if he suffered a broken arms and a few broken ribs.

Do you actually think that this guy would have passed up the opportunity to throw a shoe at Clinton or Obama? Not a chance. Folks seem to forget that all the planning and prepations for 9/11/2001 took place during the Clinton administration - and there were in FACT more terrorist attacks on US facilities during the Clinton Administration than during the current Bush Administration. Those hijackers were in flight school in Florida and Arizona when Clinton was in office, so don't think FOR A MINUTE that the RPGs, suicide vests, and diabolical plans to bring harm to this nation and her people go into cold storage just because Obama takes over in 29 days.

If that is what you think, you my friend, are mistaken.

And I hope that journalist enjoyed his freedom of speech / expression when he threw those shoes, because there are 15 Brigade Combat Teams worth of US-service members spending (another) Christmas away from their families so he is able to.

Omar - great run down. I am sure that the contingents of Saudi, Kuwaiti, Egyptian, and Jordanian troops that are in Iraq helping their Muslim brothers and sisters root-out the insurgents and terrorists completely agree with you. Oh wait, there aren't any!

But there are plenty of Syrians....saw a bunch, never got a chance to talk to them when I was in Baghdad. They all had problems breathing after my troopers and I met them for some reason. Probably because they greeted us with some sort of hostile act, like shooting at us or trying to blow us up.

Not sure if traveling to another country to fight amounts to defense.....Enshala, huh?

Merry Christmas everyone.

Update on shoe thrower. Breaking news right now alleges that the shoe thrower was dragged to another room and got a major beat down. I'm sure we'll hear more on this in the next few days.

talk talk talk.

rest day, . maybe ;)

getsome !

Beautiful day in Miami, I swam about 1 mile in an outdoor pool.

One more reason not to take any member of the press seriously.

Regardless of one's opinion of President Bush, the act was disrespectful. Shame, shame, shame.

This incident has brought shame upon the Iraqi people, and I feel bad for the IA and IP that I served alongside. One of the most important values in Arab and Mideastern society is respecting your guests, even if they are your enemies. This incident has caused grave damage to the wasta of Iraqis. It makes sense that the most enthusiastic reactions have come from other Arab states, who can applaud the shoe-throwing without having to reflect on how it affected their own honor.

Iron Major: well put sir.

Barry Cooper: agree with pretty much everything you say, but as a former poli sci nerd I would point out that Stalinism is not the same thing as fascism (although they share much in common).

S/F
Dan

Dan,

It is an interesting (read: highly predictable) outcome of history that to be called a Nazi is the worst sort of insult, but Sheryl Crow can openly sing of having a Communist friend.

Yet, the Communists killed (and continue to kill in Cuba, China, and North Korea) far, far, FAR more people than the Germans ever did. The big difference is that we invaded Germany while the--what shall we call it?--"social rectification" (a term worthy of Lenin) was still going on.

Had we invaded the Ukraine when cannibalism was so widespread signs were posted telling people, and I quote--"Eating your children is an act of barbarism"--or when the deathcamps and Beria's torture chambers were still in full operation, it would, today, be an equal insult to call someone a Communist. But we don't have pictures of those camps, or the Vietnamese reeducation camps, or pools of blood where 10's of thousands of Vietnamese were murdered in cold blood.

We can't see the mountains of bodies the Chairman Mao created in his insane efforts to remake ten thousand years of history in a couple of years.

You cannot evaluate the left's approach to Iraq without understanding that they felt then and continue to feel now that their efforts to end the war in Vietnam accomplished some concrete end. Then, as now, the war was painted as a war of America against a freedom loving, peaceful nation that just wanted to be left alone. Uncle Ho was a benign, Gandhi like figure, remember.

For my own purposes, to make this point clear, I distinguish two types of fa$cism: Nationalistic Fa$cism; and ideological or communitarian fa$cism.

The symbol of the fasces--that of the Roman Consul's--simply indicates the power to bind together by force, and the power of life and death over the subjects.

The only difference between the two types above is motivation, not end result. In fact, Hess interviewed survivors of Stalin's camps in developing plans for his own.

To Tim from Edmonton and all the others who wish President Bush had been hit by the shoes, I would like to invite all of you to go to Iraq, Jane Fonda style. Anyone who claims to be an American that thinks the President deserved this, is a traitor in my book. Iraq is the new France. With their new found freedom, they have the luxury of forgetting how they came by that freedom, and now they bite the hand that feeds. When Saddam lost power, they toppled his statues and beat them with their shoes. Now just a few years later, they are lashing out at the very man who gave them the freedom to throw shoes and live to be celebrated as a hero for it. The Iraqis have been given an amazing opportunity. And the majority of them are trying to take advantage of that. But then there are the ingnorant ones. The ones murdering innocents because they are a Sunni or a Shi'ite. Those of you on here who say we should sympathize with the journalist because we dont know what he has lost, well just so you know, it is not U.S. policy to target civilians. While I know collateral damage does occur, and it is an unfortunate by product of war, I would say that if the journalist has lost family members, I'd be willing to bet that they died at the hands of some of his backwards minded fellow countrymen. Or maybe on some of the radical Islamic foreign fighters who've been invited over to play. There are no American soldiers wearing suicide vests and walking into crowds of civilians or driving car bombs into checkpoints or onto bridges. No those are Iraqis doing that. There was a Sunni family in a Shia neighborhood in my company's AO in Baghdad. A Widow, 3 daughters and their grandmother. They were being pressured and threatened to leave the neighborhood. They were scared but had no money and no where to go. Her house was shot up, grenades tossed into her yard. We checked on them as often as we could, watched over their house. Took some people into custody who had come by telling them to leave. She made us chai each time we came by. She was always happy to see us. They stopped bothering her at her house once we started hanging around. But one day in the market, the mother was shot in the face 8 times. Executed. Her family fled. A nice Shia family moved into her newly vacated home. I wonder if anyone in her family would throw shoes at President Bush? I doubt it. I tend to think the journalist was leaning a little more to the ignorant radical side.

Went ahead and did helen today because i'm going oot and don't know if I'll get a wod in tomorrow. Got 10:44 deadlift as rx'd subbed heavy db presses for handstand pu (don't have those yet). Love the sight it's changing my life.

sorry wrong name for the wod i did still trying to get them all straight.

Baghdad just ain't what it used to be.

omar

If Islam is all about "peace", can you explain the justification of jihad, in your interpretation?

History would also disagree with you that Orthodox Islam would attempt a peaceful "reversion" (note since Mohammed taught all were originally Muslim we are reverting not converting) but move to the sword should the Kafirs (infidels) not respond. "Americanized" Muslims has in fact compromised in the sense of allowing their fellow American infidels to live..... at least for now. What is most troubling is that even "Peaceful" Muslims in the Middle East are sympathetic to their Radical Brethren!!

Hello All,

I am pretty new to crossfit, and have only been doing it for about 3 weeks. My wife has noticed my 'immersion' into it and she bought me a subscription to the crossfit journal for xams. I know that almost everything in the journal is beneficial, but are there any 'must reads' that I shouldnt miss? Any advice would be appreciated

Congrats to all of the new Level 1 trainers from the Charlotte cert! It was great meeting and working with all of you. Your energy was great!

Pat, Nicole, Andy, Chuck, Mike, Maggie, TJ, & Joe, it was great seeing you all again. Working with you guys makes me a better trainer, so thank you. See ya'll again soon!

-Bobbi

Ditto Iron Major, God bless America and the men and women of our Armed Forces.

Sock and Awe! Throw your own shoes -- it feels great.

http://www.sockandawe.com/

Attended the CrossFit Level 1 Certification at CrossFit Charlotte this weekend.

Just want to say a big thank you to Coach A. for hosting us and to all the CF coaches who made this weekend a fun, informative, yet excruciatingly painful experience (in a sick good kind of way)! I think my legs are about as sore as they can possibly be right now! Trust me I won't be hitting any bottom to bottom tabata squats any time soon!! (brutal!!)

Thanks to all the coaches: Pat, Nicole, Andy, Chuck, Maggie, Mike, TJ, and I know I'm forgetting someone...Sorry!! You guys did an excellent job on both lecturing and instruction, very precise and educational.

Special thanks to Chuck taking the time to advise me on my future program design with regard to my kettlebell sport training. Also to Andy for guiding me to my first ever muscle-up! It wasn't pretty, but I'll take it! Cheers guys!

Congrats to all who attended the cert, everyone was really cool and welcoming to us which made for a great experience. Also, big props to everyone for giving it their all on the workouts. Everyone left it all out there! I'd have to say the 'Fran' workout was my favorite! The intensity created by so many people all hitting a WOD like that at the same time was just a phenomenal experience!

Merry Christmas to everyone!

cheers,
Ross (my second name)

My name tag said Ashley (my first name) this weekend, but I thought it would be easier if I just went with it!!

One added thought and one clarification. First, the clarification. I used the word "end" with respect to the end of the Vietnam War. The word should have been "good". Quite literally no good came of our politically motivated retreat from Vietnam--other than some monetary savings that were more than compensated for by the step backwards we took thereby in the Cold War, and subsequent need to catch up to win. Our economy was good, and our deficit a fraction what it is today, Arab Embargoes notwithstanding.

Second, Islamic radicalism is best understood as an ideological fascism. Nationalistic fascism is traditional imperialism. The first ones to practice it in earnest were the Assyrians, at least in the Middle East. Ironically, their capital was not far from Mosul.

The goal here is simply to invade other countries, take their stuff, subjugate them, make them pay taxes, and use them as needed as slaves. This is all Hitler wanted. Was that so much to ask? Well, that, and the implentation of some needed genetic reforms.

Ideological fascism is much more insidious, in that it consists in the effort to spread ideas virally, so that nations are seduced from within to a form of government that ultimately seeks to destroy their identities, freedoms, and capacity to exist outside the ideological community.

Communism was like this, but so is radical Islam. Interestingly, many of the radical Muslims were educated at Western schools, and employ both the language and tactics of the Communists, even though both are not found within doctrinal Islam, or are even--as in the case of suicide bombing--antithetical to it.

'He saw then, and most of us see now, that defeating radical Muslims need not mean defeating ALL Muslims.' -#62

Can't argue with that..simply and well put.

'At the same time, please justify for me the continuing support of virtually all Islamic clerics throughout the Muslim world for suicide bombing. Can you do it? Please cite Quranic verses, understanding that you are contradicting in so doing the notion of Religion of Peace. And if you can't, then quite obviously these attacks are what they appear to be: the cynical manipulation of ideologically brainwashed children, intended to further the power of gangsters and thugs. As such, they should be roundly denounced by all honorable men. And to the extent they aren't, those men are not honorable.'-#62

There are no verses in the Qur'an that condone suicide bombing or anything like that plain and simple. Regarding the comment about virtually all of the 'Muslim clerics' in the world 'supporting' suicide bombing...it's just not true. First the Muslim world is vast...i have a feeling that by 'Muslim world' you don't mean to say the all of the muslims in the world, but the parts of the world (nations, countries) with exceptionally large Muslim populations. Or countries (still unsucessfully trying) to establish an Islamically ruled society. Most Muslims in the world do not condone suicide bombings, and there is no hiearchy of clergy in Islam. Anyone who supports suicide bombing is following an extreme course not supported by the Qur'an. Historically there ARE influential writers of the extreme bent who consider suicide bombing a 'supreme form of struggle in the way of God'. They admit that they're leanings are extreme and that the Qur'an does not support the harm of innocents, but their argument is based on a very narrow definition of innocent. They should admit their fault and not try to rationalize going against the Qur'an. (Their aim is to rationalize a false way of thinking and try to brainwash Muslims who are already down and out into interpreting things their way...Rationalize~Rational lies...something to think about).

Look, I've read several versions of the Qur'an (different translations to English) and Arabic and have read the book in it's entirety at least 10 times. You won't find support for suicide bombing in there. You will find support for not fearing death and for fighting against oppressors. These are the ideas that some people in the Muslim world twist to justify suicide bombing. These two ideas however are not exclusive to Islam or the main points of Islam either. Death is a natural process and should not be feared. People may have to physically fight to defend against unjust physical aggression. These statements can be agreed upon by even the most peace-loving humans on this earth be they Agnostic, Muslim, Jew, Christian, etc.

ANY right minded person could agree that for a person to carry out a viscious act against another and ESPECIALLY against their own self is not acting in their right mind. So a person who kills their self by bomb is simply lost to an appreciation for their own human worth. Some people look to social psychology to try to understand why people go to extreme things like that and cite, poverty, lack of education, alienation, government oppression (Columbine high school shootings/suicide bombing) and try to omit religion from any responsibility. I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. ALL of those things play a part and the role religion plays depends on how the affected person(s) are already thinking AND whether or not that person has been raised on that line of thinking (more on that later). If you are already inclined towards aggression, then you gravitate towards it no matter what. You read into things and extract what YOU want from it. What we are seeing is the result of brainwashing over a long period of time mixing human emotions of pride, with a zeal of faith, and miseducation of religious texts. It's like the Nazi movement. You take nationalism, mix it with extreme religious views, keep it simmering long enough and eventually it will boil over into the mess you see today.

How do you stop it? If things get out of hand you may have to respond in defense of the innocent and repel the aggressor. Just make sure you go about it in an honest, open, and correct manner with correct information and intelligence. But the root problem (the brainwashing etc)can only be solved through education. The pen is mightier than the sword, right? The prophet Muhammad said the 'ink of the scholar is more precious than the blood of the martyr.' When he said that he was drawing attention to correct education over physically dying in the cause of God. He was also not talking about suicide bombing. This was said over 1400 years ago. People were not using bombs during that time for fighting. To SAY that you are dying in the cause of God by doing something that God does not approve of makes you a liar. Besides, suicide bombing is the cowardly way out where one avoids the responsibility of working in this world we live in.

Our problem is that we want a simple answer to a complex problem. We're quick to blame it on religion, and fail to face our own ignorance on the thing its easiest to blame it on. we approach the issue with a bias already present and high emotions and then make sweeping indictments. When we are called on it we THEN seek knowledge on the matter from sources that are biased like ours and come to some wrong conclusions.

'these attacks are what they appear to be: the cynical manipulation of ideologically brainwashed children, intended to further the power of gangsters and thugs. As such, they should be roundly denounced by all honorable men. And to the extent they aren't, those men are not honorable.'-#62

So that is true...and the President of the U.S. knows that, and I know that, and so do most Muslims in the world. Many muslims in the world have lost their way, many are miseducated, many are fighting each other in civil wars not so much over religious interpretation, but over family ties and politics. It's a reality for Muslims of today...but this has been a reality for mankind.

Last thing...God wants peace between human beings. The 'devil' is lies (rational lies), weak thinking, and wrong ideas not some guy in Hell's kitchen with horns, hooves, a goatee and a pitchfork cookin evil doers in Hell's kitchen. The 'devil' aims to influence all individuals and groups with lies, weak thinking, and wrong ideas. Fight the schemes because the schemes are weak. Lies, weak thinking and wrong ideas as a collective IS the enemy of mankind. Know the real enemy to humanity's progress, this includes America's progress as well. It's not God versus the Devil it's us versus the devil...once again 'lies, weak thinking, and wrong ideas'

Thanks for listening ;-)

Barry Cooper your remark in #61 above reveals your bias that has no basis in reality nor facts.

Here is what you said, "At the same time, please justify for me the continuing support of virtually all Islamic clerics throughout the Muslim world for suicide bombing."

Did you conduct a survey of "virtually all Islamic clerics"? Remember Muslims are spread all over the world. I don't know of such a survey ever taking place.

It is a human trait to make up facts to comfort us in our biases (and we all have biases). All your verbage is useless since the foundations of your belief-set about Islam/Muslims is based upon non-existent facts.

Jack,

If what you say is true, then it ought to be easy for you to produce a long list of Islamic Mullahs (Omar, you know the Ummah functions effectively as a thought oligarchy) who publicaly and without qualification oppose suicide bombing--in Israel, in Iraq, in Afghanistan, and wherever else Muslim's are fighting what they call a jihad. Please do so. For my part, I would refer you to www.jihadwatch.org . In fact, the most recent post on Chertoff is directly relevant.

Omar,

Your words are more reasonable than those of Jack. In fact, they are overall quite reasonable. There is ample common ground with us.

Jack, on the other hand, commits the ubuiquitous leftist error of assuming that since I have made a generalized pejorative statement about some non-Western group, it must be wrong. He cites no evidence to support his case, but then claims categorically that his "logic" has shown me to be wrong.

This is an example of distressingly common and blatantly obvious hypocrisy, since generalized, pejorative statements about the US or the West of course require no fact checking and are presumed to be invariably correct, in spirit if not actual fact.

Were I to see prominent Islamic clerics everywhere offering blatant condemnations of the intentional murder of non-combatant women and children, strictly for the purpose of terror, then I would feel much better about the whole thing. Reality is, though, Islam does call for global conquest, and many of them are still trying to decide if they have a chance at winning.

8 more years of George Bush, and they would know that they don't. 8 years of Obama, and who knows what is possible? This is how a lack of moral clarity and military firmness leads to more, not less, violence.

Did Cindy today

20 or 21 rounds...lost track.
I still had 3-4 minutes left, but puttered out. Yeah, I'm a quitter. Don't know if it's a PR, but it's the first time I've recorded it.
Working out with the Bellevue University (Nebraska) X-fit affiliate tomorrow. WOOHOO!!

Cheers!
Dave
M/210/33/72"

Just tried to post and it didn't work.

Did Cindy today. 20 or 21 rounds. Lost track.
Don't know if it's a PR, first time I recorded time.
Looking forward to working out w/the Bellevue University (Nebraska) X-fit affiliate. WOOHOO!!!

Cheers
Dave
M/33/210/72"

21, 59, 61 -

please. ignorance is bliss apparently.

Appolloswabie, - if you have looked at the demographic/sectarian map of Baghdad and transpose it with today's secterian beakdown in Baghdad, which you should have if you spent a year in Al Faw Palace -you'd really call THAT progress and winning - and liberating a country?

When we "liberate" a people, its supposed to be better after liberation, but is it?

It is kinda cool, if your a neo-con, to see the sectarian map pre 2003/Now and how the Sunni's have had their ass handed to them and pushed to the near far western edges of Baghdad. Oh yea, and that city Saba Al Bour northwest 8 miles of Baghdad that was 125,000 Sunnis in 2005 - well, they all left via the help of Jaysh Al Mahdi. Bless JAM for giving thousands of free homes to Shia... Bush style democracy is cool - a la in a very sorta JAM way.

How else is Iraq liberated? Its been liberated so much people in Iraq are finding new places to live! Lets look closer..

Barry, Iraq's population is approx 25 million, half of your 50 million. Of those 25 million, 4 million - 1 in 6 - are either internally displaced or externally displaced persons, all since the war started. That is the equivlant of approx 45 million Americans forcibly moved to another city/state or forcibly moved to Mexico/Canada. Apparently 4 million IDP/EDPs is a win/win for democracy.

We certainly saved Iraqis from an evil tyrant by God. Liberation is cool because you get to move - thanks AQ and JAM, but we still iberated them.

But wait, if your part of the Sunnis who are members of the tribal awakening groups, how will PM Maliki's Shia government thank your efforts to rid AQ from Anbar (note: scores od awakening members were anti-CF and killed US soldiers/Marines.. they just did not target Iraqis, unlike AQ):

Oh, and as far as the tribal awakening, mostly Sunni, I wonder how PM Maliki enjoys seeing an armed Sunni tribal force, militia really, growing strong? I wonder if the Iraqi government wants to spend money to take control of them or welcome them into the MOI/MOD? don't delude yorselves.

So great when a liberated Prime Minister is a leader for all its citizens and not just a sect - ahem, was that dripping sarcasm? My bad.

Liberating Iraq also means we have a close eye on Iran, right? Or does it?

But wait, if your a neocon, apparently having Maliki's and ISCI/Badr political parties - ahem, both founded and funded in Iran - as the primary power holders in Iraq as a victory for the US - then you must be proud.

If your a Bush/Cheney style neo-con, take pride in bolstering Iran's influence in Iraq by an exponential margin.

Thanks to any and all politicians willing to stand up to the madness and demand accountability in Iraq 2003-2007.

God Bless America for liberating Iraq! There just might be a shoe thrower awaiting to thank you too.

Looking good, Heather. Something tells me YOU can do it all.

omar

Still didn't get your interpretation of the Muslim justification of jihad, if Islam is all about peace.

And its convenient that those who oppose Pres. Bush are hypercritical of everything he says and does, until he states something they support. The guy can be an "absolute idiot" on everthing else, but when he says something you like, well "He's an authority!!" I don't think anyone would agree that he is an expert on Islam and its "peace-loving" tendencies, he was just trying to be politically correct to keep the whackos in the US from discriminating against Muslims who live here in the days following 9.11

#92: to be clear, you feel all Iraqis would have been much better off under Hussein, and that the current situation can under no circumstances be improved in the slightest, much less continuing improving for many years?

The 50 million, by the way, included Afghanistan. I was repeating a number I heard earlier, and should have been more clear.

couldnt rest today... had to workout

first time with Angie
24m35s
just under 10 min to finish the 100 pull ups but i tried to do them with strict form... ouch

Bingo,

not priceless....at least $220.00.

However, my wife thought the priceless part was my calm response to the whole situation.

I guess I've gotten a little wiser. not smarter, just wiser.
Dave

Level I Cert in Charlotte:

Wanted to sent many thanks out to CrossFit Charlotte and all our trainers for making this weekend an amazing experience. Everyone who participated showed such great heart and passion. I could not imagine what today must be like for the "Rookies" or, God forbid, "First Timers"! I felt like a little kid when I walked in and saw the CFHQ crew that I have been following via journal videos all this time. Well worth the $, time and effort. Thanks everyone and I hope to see you again. Next Cert for me is Gymnastics in Lexington (Jan '09). Anyone going?

"Americanized" Muslims has in fact compromised in the sense of allowing their fellow American infidels to live..... at least for now. What is most troubling is that even "Peaceful" Muslims in the Middle East are sympathetic to their Radical Brethren!!-# 81

This statement is what a radical who claims to be Muslim would say. They'd call Muslims that live in America 'Americanized'. They would also criticize them and say that they were not REAL Muslims and that they were 'compromising' the real Islam and were hypocrites. AGAIN that is what an extreme person claiming to be Muslim would say. That's their extreme view.

My aim in these posts is to provide a perspective that we are either missing, failing to acknowledge, or trying to cover up. These posts aren't so much in response to the people who are making these comments, but to give everyone else out there information and things to look into for themselves. I have no intention to convert anyone or make anyone revert, or whatever. We've had some good responses, but no one has taken our Presiden't comments on (in my original post) and tried to discredit them. Many are saying that they support President Bush but how many are acknowledging his comments on Islam? We should stop trying to put scare-tactic statements out there like

' "Americanized" Muslims has in fact compromised in the sense of allowing their fellow American infidels to live..... at least for now.'

Like there's gonna be some awakening and we're all gonna start killing our friends, family members, co-workers, etc. That's absurd and anyone who would put inuendo out there like that should be ashamed of themselves! Think what you want but don't try to influence others to that thinking.

Most of my family members are non-Muslim (Mostly Christian of all denominations, Jewsih, Buddhist, Jehovah's witness, and others). I do believe everyone is born pure (no one comes here tainted from sin) and it is our circumstances and choices that make us otherwise or keep us going in the right direction. we come into this world impressionable. Our inherent inclination is to be in submission to the creator's will...meaning we naturally follow the developmental process and logic the creator has put into our being. Some can look to science and reason and recognize that human beings develop according to a pattern. Others come to that conclusion by was of scriptural understanding of what is understood to be 'revelation'. Some consciously submit themselves to what they best understand to be the best developmental process for themselves. In essence everyone is born Muslim (Muslim by definition is one who submits) and in a Christlike state...for those used to that language. It's our job to maintain that purity and that is our struggle (jihad). All people have that responsibility. On a personal level and on a collective level. Does that mean that we're all going to be Muslims by name, no...and my support for that comes from the Qur'an where it states that there will be more than those who call themselves Muslims in the 'heavenly hereafter' including Jews, Christians, and others. When it comes to the 'hereafter' we're talking about on this earth, in this world, first. Muslims are not responsible for converting everyone by the sword of otherwise, but responsible for continuing the good works that came through previously established communities (Jews, Christians, in first thought). History is full of bad Muslims, no doubt, but no more than it is filled with bad Christians, and Bad Jews. I'm not talking about a few bad seeds, I'm talking about empires that went astray and eventually fell. It happend then and it is happening now.

finally, someone mentioned the term kaafir and interpreted it as infidel. Many Muslims wrongly assert that anyone who doesn't believe exactly as they believe is a kaafir. The true historic definition of a Kaafir is someone who is covering the truth, and presenting something false as the truth when they know what the truth is. So, one has to be going against what they really know to be true to be a kaafir! This excludes most people. Historically and in the Qur'an the Kaafir is referring to this type of individual or group. I hear this term slung around like 'jihad' is slung around by people who've read some book bashing islam. It only shows their ignorance. By this definition there are many Muslims and many non Muslims that are Kaafir's. Many have lost their way and i'll say that many in these governments trying to establish 'islamic rule' are God-damned wrong. The Qur'an says that God will use one people to check another if they are wrong and we are seeing that (Saddam Hussein and his toppled regime for example) and we will continue to see that. As any believer (be they any religious interpretation) should believe-In the long term those things that are not approved by God, will fail. Look at so many examples in history one nation checks another...that nation rises to power then loses its way, and it falls off.

I was going to stop there but this is where I have to waive the U.S. flag...I truly believe that the United States is protected by it's declaration. It speaks of self-evident truths and inalienable rights endowed by the creator. That is powerful! We have the power in our sincere adherence to the spirit of that message to earn God's protection over this nation. Not just because we're 'Americans'. That's just a name, we are protected by God, to the extent that we adhere to our creed and protect human rights over nationalistic rights. The creed recognizes the creator as being the source of where our rights come from. I say all of that because we have to think globally. Our economy, technology advances, and so many other things are bringing us closer to everywhere else in the world. As Americans we have to know where our strength is really coming from. It comes from being well informed and sober broad thinking.

People's frustrations are often voiced in asking 'then where are the good peaceful Muslims?' Why don't they speak up and speak out louder? I have the same sentiments. But we all have to do more to get involved. many of us are so focused on out own situation that we don't want to deal with what is going on around us. This is true for Muslims, this is true for Americans, this is true of all people. But it doesn't have to be that way.

But all this isn't about what i personally believe and what my personal interpretation is. Just because someone empahtically states 'the fact is...' doesn't mean that they are coming from knowledge or history. Even if you are coming from history, most times it depends on who is writing the book and what they are trying to accomplish. There are very few if any 100% objective history essays, books, etc.

I recognize that many of our folks here are in the military and have been in warzones.I can't express how much your service is appreciated. I have a number of family members who served as well. My brother came back from Iraq in the Summer of 2005. He too was greeted with fire and some of our best friends died over there. I could not and never will defend someone just because they claim to have the same religion. Most of us thinking people who check these postings can relate to that.

I'm traveling wednesday to visit with my Grandmother like I do every year to spend Christmas with her and my other family. Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Happy holidays to you all, too.

We'll see where this discussion goes, next...

#78 (Ryan)

I'm no Geography major, but I'm guessing that Tim from Edmonton is not really claiming to be an American.

As for defending the left:
I dislike how people are criticized for utilizing their free speech. Even in times of war, it is acceptable for non-military (and I would argue military as well) citizens to voice their opinions about a war. Our country is not a group of lemmings to be led off of a cliff. It is our duty to this country to voice our own opinions if we believe their is an injustice being done. However, there is a big difference between voicing your opinion and acting in an aggressive manner towards anyone, much less the leader of our country.

Finally, let me say that I am eternally grateful to the strong men and women that serve our country on the front lines. Merry Christmas and I wish you all a safe return.

did Mary today, was off this past weekend

9+rds

omar

Let me say I appreciate you civility and understand your responses very well. My experience with Muslims worldwide has been different than in America. American Muslims are not trying to change policy and socioeconomics to suit the Qu'ran, and not arguing for Sharia Law. You must admit that up until this point in history, American Muslims have practiced and lived very different from your brethren in the Middle East. And you can't argue that the sentiments for the more radical Islam are present throughout the World from even Moderate Muslim countries. The point is, if you oppose a Terrorist activity, denounce it publicly and help defeat it, don't just give us lip sertvice while secretly (and some openly) sympathizing with them.

What would the response from the Middle East be had this been a Jewish reporter throwing a shoe at a Muslim cleric or leader? Well, you know the answer.....somebody gets bombed and innocent people die for it. And btw, the Qu'ran calls Jews and Christian "people of the book" and states that they know the truth and have actively altered the Bible to leave prophecy about Muhammed out. So that pretty much makes all of them Infidels, right? (I am an atheist, so all of your religious delusions are a waste of time to me)

Thanks to Pat, Andy, Nicole and Chuck for a very contructive L2 session. The key takeaway was that All Movement Is Not Good Movement. We'll be much more relentless down here in Jax.

#100 Sexican,
How do I know he didnt mean Edmonton, Kentucky?

95 Barry,

Make no mistake, "liberating" Iraq is a feel-good way for neo-cons to assuage the American public that our soliders/Marines sacrifice in Iraq is for a higher cause - which they'd argue is liberty.

The question is - and only is - is America strategically in a better security position today (taking into account the status of our Armed Forces, the state of affairs in Afghanistan, OIF's drain on the government budget) by being in Iraq?

That answer clearly is a resounding no. Simply stated, Iran's ability to influence and cajole is exponentially better off. Who was Iran's primary balance of power? Saddam. Did we have him contained? God yes, with exxceptions, but strategically we most certainly did.

Where else does the US support an A-hole for our strategic purposes? That list is far longer than this discussion merits, but lets just say a country that starts with a "P" and ends in an "N."

I could care less about democracy in Iraq. I care about the strategic nature of America's security. OIF is draining our ability to take the military and diplomatic fights to Sunni extremism. We created a startegic nightmare that took our eye off the prize.

If it wasnt for Democratic - and a few brave Republican politicians - in 2007 calling for withdrawal and accountability in Iraq - Bush and mCCain would have us there for another 100 years.

When its all said and done, the "liberated" Iraqis want all American troops out ina couple years anyway. What do we get for liberating Iraq and sacrificing 4,000+ Americans?

A big old "Thanks, but No Thanks, Leave Now." Hell, at least the French still garner some appreciation for us.

Mark my words, there will NEVER be a memorial or statue in Baghdad to commemorate the fallen American troops for "liberating" Iraq.

Thanks PM Maliki.

skipped sat and sunday wods(still new, a week and a half in) did the 4 by 800s today. 2 58 ,2 58 ,3 15 ,3 13. tough workout, i would like to get all below 2 20, is that feasible( never trained for sprints before)

'Still didn't get your interpretation of the Muslim justification of jihad, if Islam is all about peace.'-#94 bkm

Al-Islam- 'Al-' is the definite article 'The'. 'Islam' refers to the peaceful submission/surrender to God's will. (A person who is stuck on the thinking that Islam is spread by the sword would go off in the wrong direction with that statement, and probably still will. They would have anyways because of their disposition but i digress.)

This peaceful submission is actualized in the person who has thought things through regarding matters of religion. It is not with a realization that there is only one God after they have a foot on their neck. The Qur'an says 'Let there be no compulsion in religion, truth stands out clear from error'. One's submission would not be valid unless they see for themself that it is the right way to go. For that person it must be a logical conclusion that was come to rationally. Not just being raised that way. Not by compulsion or force, so the argument that Islam was supposed to be spread by the sword is absurd.

Historically, there were Muslim empires that 'spread the religion by the sword', and eventually they crumbled, because they went about things the wrong way. Our country has in it's history the taking over of lands violating human rights, and many other atrocious things, but our country has repented of those things. Christianity was implemented by the swords or guns of men in many lands but again you can't blame the teachings of Jesus on that.

Regarding 'Jihad'. The word itself means struggle. Struggle can come in many forms. The Qur'an dictates to struggle agains what is wrong and commands that muslims do not oppress, and fight off oppression to maintain peace. It's a common sense command. In Islam Muslims are to be just and act with common sense. If you aren't harming anyone and they attack you then you have the right to repel them with force right back. To say that it is a conditional peace is correct only in the sense that you are not attacked first. The Qur'an encourages mercy and forgiveness but in some cases you HAVE to fight back. Any rightminded man or woman would defend their home, church, community in as righteous a way as they could. In the beginning the Muslims were commanded not to fight back, but to immigrate. later they were told they could fight back. Muslims in the time of the prophet were never commissioned to go out and convert everyone or to aggressively conquer anyone. That came after the time of Muhammad, by bad leadership.

During it's first days Muslims immigrated to ethiopia to seek refuge against the idol-worshipping society in Mecca that was growing in physical oppression towards them. They were embraced by a Christian King. Very important historical fact. Later Muslims immigrated to Medinah. After continued assualts by the Meccans the Muslims were told to defend themselves by using physical aggression. There were many wars during the time of the prophet Muhammad. Mostly between the meccans who vastly outnumbered the Muslims and aimed to extinguish the Muslims by force. That is the historical context of the scriptures in the Qur'an that tell the Muslims to fight, to defend themselves, etc. All while warning them to not go to extremes.

So yes Jihad does include physical aggression in the form of self defense. The Prophet Muhammad also said that the greatest Jihad is that within one's own self. It's all Jihad. We already acknowledge that Muslims empires over time used the term Jihad in the physical struggle sense to do what they wanted to do, which was wrong, and eventually they were defeated, and rightfully so.

But the core intention of telling Muslims to fight is not to conquer and convert. That came from the heart of men, not the revelation of God.

To be clear...President Bush is not an expert on Islam. Never said he was. I also never said he was an absolute idiot or an idiot at all. others may have. I give our President a lot of credit on a lot of things. AND I give him much more credit than trying to be merely politically correct in his comments on Islam.

m/34/180 -

Rest day-- 6 beers 1 hour 45 minutes

#59 What is this "finish the job" you speak of?

Sincerely,
Office of the President Elect

I wish I could say that I feel bad for Bush, but I don't. Honestly, it's just a shoe. To quote Austin Powers, "Who throws a shoe?" Lol.

I stood and marched against this war before it ever began. It's odd to me how many Americans feel so f-ing righteous in the 'liberation' and freeing of Iraqis, yet in other areas of the world where the same things, no, worse things are happening, we turn a blind eye. Dar-fur, Sudan, Congo.

Not only do the leaders there commit atrocities just as bad, if not worse than Sadam, they also rape and enslave children for use in combat.

So it begs the question, what is our purpose for 'liberating' this region? Military strategy? Ridding the world of 'terrorists'? Terrorists that terrorize who? I don't feel too terrorized but the people in the Congo probably do...

My point being the ridding the world of terrorists seems to come with a sub-clause. Rid the world of terrorists where it helps us the most. At least recognize the selfish nature of war before you start spouting off righteous bs.

Do I think it's right that the dude chucked a shoe at the prez? Not really, but, I'm over it.

I'm about 2 weeks into crossfit WODs after a 12 week routine similar to P90X. All I can say is, this rocks! The other routine was great for all around body toning, this takes it a few levels up. I already see significant increase in max reps on pullups.
I am mixing in some yoga like stretching and flexibility moves. Cycling training also with base miles prepping for '09 racing.

only comment on the Bush video...its too bad he didn't catch the shoe and then bean the guy back in the face with it. Bush 2, reporter 0.

As for the would be shoe assasin, he no doubt received an old style can of Saddam Hussein whoop ass afterwards! If he is released soon, the bruises may be healed by then lol

A lot of people would call Bush a jag-off, but damnit, he is our jag-off nevertheless.

what are the "100-day burpee" and "100-day pushup" challenges that some people have been referencing? i'm interested b/c i looked like death during the burpees in the filthy 50 the other day.

BKM just read your comments in #102. apologies for the late response. My long responses are taking a while to get out ;-)

I agree with your comments about the need to oppose openly. That does not happen as loudly and as forcefully as it should. And American Muslims do live differently from Muslims in other parts of the world. No arguing that. That definitely influences our dispositions. The fight against correct perception must continue.

On Human beings...We may be athiest, Hindu, or one of the most popular religions in the world but we all desire and deserve those inalienable rights, that we are born with.

Athiest? I don't blame you. With the way religion is presented in the world I don't blame you or anybody else.

Oh, and the Qur'an does refer to Jewish and Christians as 'people of the book'. Everyone knows that things were changed in religious texts, old and new testament. that's no secret. There were people who changed those things...and this is history. But not all Christians or Jews actively changed those books. Those who did may have had good reason. You can't call them kaafir's. that would be incorrect. Like I said before whoever covers up truth knowingly and replaces it with false things, knowingly, they could be referred to as a kaafir, be they muslim, jew, christian, etc. That excludes most people. There are other terms for people (anybody... be they muslim, jew, christian) who go astray unknowingly, or unintentionally. Ultimately we couldn't be the judge of that. The Qur'an ALSO EMPHATICALLY warns muslims to be like those Jews, and Christians, and other people of faith who did right in the world and were standard bearers of freedom, Justics, and equality.

that would be freedom, JUSTICE, and equality ;-)

#104: So if Saddam was still in power, currently developing nuclear weapons, and his people still starving, that would have been preferable to invading Iraq because Iran now has--according to many--a say in the government of Iraq, which can and will change with every election?

Will Al-Maliki still be in power five years from now? If a Sunni is in charge, does that not mitigate your entire argument, to the extent it is coherent?

Moreover, the Iranians stopped their nuke program--at least according to their own account--when we invaded Iraq. They will be starting it again, of course, now that Obama will be in charge.

But it's not clear to me what Bush would or could have done with respect to Iran that he didn't do. If we never invaded Iraq, would we then have invaded Iran? No, of course not. As much flack as we got for the invasion of Iraq--which WAS legal, to the consternation of the many nations who benefited financially from the status quo--we would have gotten much more for going into Iran.

Moreover, we have staging areas on three sides of Iran--the Gulf, Iraq, and Afghanistan. This is a tremendous advantage logistically if force projection is ever needed.

Personally, I think the Iranians would already have nukes, absent our invasion, and would be at this moment in the act of destabilizing the region more than they already are. Hussein would be not far behind, if he didn't already have them as well. Hell, the Syrians were trying to build them, in my view with Iraqi technology and technicians, until the Israelis put the kabosh on that.

What you seem incapable of grasping is that things can get better, and that they could have been much, much worse.

As much death and destruction as we caused, I think we ultimately--if you put a balance sheet to it--saved Iraqi lives by ending the embargo, which was itself the only thing preventing Saddam from carrying out his plans to build multiple types of WMD's.

You come across as a bitter man who lacks the imagination to see the bigger picture. Yes, the whole thing could fall apart, but that is not a necessary outcome, nor even, as of this moment, a likely one.

If you want to preach doom and gloom to yourself and others all day every day, of course you will teach yourself to see only the negatives.

But how long did it take the South to rebuild from the Civil War? How long did it take Germany to rebuild from WW2? These things take time, and frankly I think our fine military has us ahead of schedule. They had to, or else the "nattering nabobs of negativism" would have had us out of there long ago.

omar

Your posts are reasonable and well presented. I only wish your mindset was prevalent in the Arab countries that empower and support the Radicals. Peace my friend, may your God bless you.

M/22/155/5'9"

on a different note, its pretty snowy up here in the pacific Northwest. Not sure if I would be able to make it to the gym tomorrow, so I decided to make today a double day.

Deadlift 3-3-3-3-3

275-275-285-295-305X2

followed by "Lynne" (5 rounds, max rep BW benchpress and pullups)

Bench Press: 23 16 14 11 11 = 75
Pull ups: 20 18 14 12 14 = 78

first time with Lynne. I guess this mean I'm pretty balanced in strength? Any inputs on what are "good" numbers for the bench press?

Here is a link telling the story of this guy in more detail: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article5375389.ece

He is a Shiite.

I wonder if he was there when Al Queda beheaded every man, woman, and child in an entire village. Or when they ran over the son of a Sunni Sheikh with a truck repeatedly, in front of him.

We owed it to the ourselves to stop Hussein from getting WMD's, from acting as a focal point of terrorism--which he was beginning to do--and from continuing to tie up American troops preventing him from massacring his own people.

Plusses were bringing something like democracy to the Iraqis, creating a central front for the War on Terror (and winning it), and boxing in the Iranians and Syrians.

Quite often, proper foreign policy focusses both on what's right and what's expedient. Seeing this thing through to Iraqi stability was both.

They may never erect a monument to us. Perhaps they will be unable to get enough people to vote for it publicly. But from everything I hear and read, there are many, many individual Iraqis who have grown to love and respect our soldiers and the values they stand for. Those lessons will not be forgotten. They will stay behind, for the betterment of everyone.

Billy- I think you can be arrested for using my name and the Zone in the same sentence. I haven't put on any weight even though I haven't worked out in five days. My knee is still jacked up from the 150 box jump workout. I am starting to get a little freaked out about it since I've never had a knee injury before. Tomorrow I just suck it up and roll with it.

Herm- No spoilers? Unless Sevan uses an alternate ending, I am pretty sure Jason Khalipa still wins the Games. Haha!

Omar, you have a great point of view. I agree that it is easy to understand why many people are agnostic/atheistic given the manner in which religions are often portrayed. I take my faith seriously, but I am cautious about how I talk about it. I'm not ashamed, but I have had other religious people hit me over the head with their religious views which is a turnoff even to me. I am also conscious that I don't want to be guilty of false advertisement. I wish all religious people could learn to take their faith seriously, but not themselves (too much). Thanks for your posts.

SheepDawg007. You sound pretty bitter and cynical. Granted, I'm sure there is a basis of reality to your point of view, but I am glad that there are those who can see a glimmer of hope for a better future. As for us being in Iraq for years into the future - why is that a bad thing? It seems that most people forget that there are still US military service members serving in Kosovo. Remember that country? Hmmmm.... that was a decade ago, and we're still there. I have read that it is likely that Kosovo would revert to civil war without external influence. Why, then, would we leave?! Hopefully, with time, the people in that country will be given the chance to get over their ancient hatred for each other. It'll take time - there's no doubt about it. Why shouldn't Iraq be given the same chance?

bkm

I feel the same way. Eventually goodness will always prevail.

Peace to you and everybody else. Go hard! Crossfit!

Can we just stick to workouts?

Man, I hope this whole shoe-throwing thing catches on. It really seems like a more peaceful solution than say a fist-fight or other forms of violence. Plus you really have to be serious to throw a shoe because there's a chance you're not going to get it back which would make you look like a giant knob when you're walking home with only one shoe on.

That would raise a whole host of other issues, I guess, such as are you one-shoe or two-shoe angry at someone? If I saw someone who looked pretty pi#$ed off and they had no shoes on I could gather they were two-shoe angry and I'd avoid them at all costs. On the other foot - sorry - hand, if I saw someone with only one shoe on I could assume that they aren't in the best of moods but are still probably approachable at the very least. Even further, how pi#$ed off would you have to be to throw a $120 pair of Nikes at someone??

We could be on to something here people. This could be the first step (oh me, the puns) to a more peaceful society that could easily resolve more of their issues outside the local Foot Locker instead of a pub!

The reason Iraq is such a mess is because the US tried to apply a top coat of democracy to a tribal society that didn't want it (at least the movers and shakers in the society with a vested interest in staying in charge of their own little fiefdoms). The lesson is that it is very hard to stabilise a country that is surrounded by countries that don't want to see democracy flourish, and is torn apart internally by inter tribe/ group fighting, corruption and decades of scores to settle.

The several thousand CF troops lost lives as a result of mistakes made in the early days. If Paul Bremmer (US Ambassador in 2003)hadn't fired the Army and Police Force at a stroke, and then hadn't stopped paying them their salaries and pensions, he could have employed them and had a shot at keeping the country secure. As it was, he fired them, drove the only people with soldiering experience into the hands of the militias, organised crime, the tribes and terrorists. They had to feed their families somehow. Back in 2003/4 the US was claiming that the majority of the terrorism in Iraq was AQ, utter boll*cks of course, the majority of it was ex army Sunis blowing up Shia policemen, markets etc.

The US State Department must take a whopping slice of the blame for the pre Patreus debacle (I'm shaking my head while writing this, trying to think up a polite way to say Useless bunch of incompetent f**kwits)-but can't come up with anything better. Honestly, I wouldn't trust those morons to sit the right way on a toilet, let alone try and rebuild a complicated, constantly changing political situation. It shows that Iraq wasn't considered to be a good State Dept posting, and that there was probably considerable political bias regarding who they sent over (they went for reliable politically rather than competent I suspect). I hope for America's sake, those idiots weren't your brightest and best.

Pretty much all the money the US sank into reconstruction was wasted. A fair bit went into the pockets of corrupt offials, another chunk was used constructively, but was then destroyed, even by the end of 2005 there was less than an hour a days electricity. Poor show in a country that hot.

The irony is that despite all the mistakes the Coalition made, most of the mess Iraq is in was created by the Iraqis themselves. Yes, the US might have uncorked the genie, but the intentions were good, I can't think of any other nation that would have a huge sign outside the Corps of Engineers building asking, without a trace of irony "What have you done for the Iraqi People Today?", the terrorism in the early days was Sunny. It saddens me to know that Iraq could be a beautiful, peacefull country with everyone living off the oil money, if only they'd allowed the US to rebuild it for them.

i'm with you # 123.
i did cindy today.
as well as yesterday.
today though i did 15 rounds.
i went a little slow, b/c i wanted to work on form.
so i did dead hand pu the first 10 rounds, then got tired and did kip the last 5. stopped at 19:00
pushups were nice, squats nice.
i watched rocky 4 last night, man, i wish i could be like him.

28 m 175 5'11
as rx'ed
22 rounds...butterflied pullups...kinda

Well....my comment seems to have sparked some controversy......good. To start, I have NEVER been a fan of your President,( Dave, that should give you a little hint at where I live. ) Thsi all started with the invasion,ahem, liberation of Iraq. The funny thing is, there were NO IRAQIS on any of the palnes that hit the World Trade centre! It has been documented. Invading Iraq was just an excuse for Bush junior to catch his Daddy's arch enemy......that is why I don't like your President. NOT because I don't support the military. Our soldiers are in Afghanistan right now........I support them because they have to be there. And for the freedom they are fighting for. Both of my grandfathers fought on the front lines in WWII......I understand why our soldiers have to be there. But I don't support the war.

That guy is a coward...you will never see someone throwing shoes at a tyrant because he would have his head chopped off!

He threw a shoe because this is what happened last time he tried to use an actual weapon:

http://www.buckylewis.com/gunkick.htm

Back squat
185 x 10
225 x 10
265 x 3
295 x 3
315 x 3 (pr)

30 muscle ups for time

12:30

100 Burpees

7:42

Only 48 degrees inside the gym today. Could not get warmed up. Times suffered accordingly.

caught up on Cindy today.
24+Pullups

21/M/6'/175

got caught up with Cindy today.
14 rounds
28/M/5'9"/185

Omar - big props for displaying patience, dignity and respect here today, in the face of some appalling provocation.

Peace.

experimenting with fran workouts... used 65lbs and got 3:55. I think fran is mental but would suck no matter how much weight i used. will catch up with the sprints and cindy over the next couple days. Merry Christmas to everyone.

#129 TimfromEdmonton

If we wanted a critique of our gov't and Military from a damn Canadian, we would have given you voting rights here. Until then, just enjoy the safety we provide while you cower under our wings!! God Bless America and the Corps!! OORah!!

omar

Thank you for your dialogue today, you are obviously a gentleman and Godly man. I enjoy learning the perspectives of people like yourself. With reasonable Muslims such as yourself there is definitely hope for peace in this World.

made up "Cindy"
16 rounds

made up cindy
warmed up w/ du's

rx'd
19 rds
+5 pull ups, and 6 push ups

Sat: did Fight Gone Bad @ CF HARDBODIES
rx'd:393

Since Filthy Fifty been doing intervals of snow shoveling and 400m sled drags with 1-2 toddlers in tow. Not for time, just for fun. :) Back on track tomorrow. Not used to the snow in the Pacific NW!

Comment 114- Heather - I found the 100 push-up challenge on a crossfit home site and thought that it would be fun...so for 50 days you do 100 push-ups (or burpees or whatever). If your workout includes what you have choosen that is a bonus but if not you add them on. You do not have to do them all in a row but sometime within 24 hours...I prefer to do them right after the WOD. I have found at day 31 that it is improving some of my other events like pull-ups.

Merry Christmas

Good example of why agility is one of our 10 aspects.

I am not a fan of Bush because he supports torture and war. I've had this discussion with my wife, who is not a fan of Bush either but thinks that we should be upset about the shoe incident. I wish I could say I had the balls to throw a shoe at Bush.

He supports torture.
He lied to get this country into a war, though I believe he believes in the war he still lied about it.

All

Thanks for the discussion and tough direct questions. I think a lot of us gained from our exchange. No struggle, no progress, right?

Omar

#143 Paul

There are 3 things I know about you from your post:

#1 You watch too much CNN
#2 You have no Military interogation experience
#3 You don't understand Executive Intel Briefings

Conclusion: stick to your civilian life and leave the Military strategy to the pro's.

#143

Best Post Ever!

As many rounds as possible in 20 min:

Jihad (wear 20 lbs. vest if you have it)

... kidding!!... Merry Christmas

#145 Carl G:

"Conclusion: stick to your civilian life and leave the Military strategy to the pro's."

Did he comment on military strategy anywhere in his post? Or are you just taking umbrage at a civilian voicing an opinion about our political leadership?

Thank god you guys answer to a civilian command structure...

Carl G,

I have no military experience. I do not believe in torture, and somehow that's become an activity that has been up for discussion the last seven years. Hasn't it always been "them" that tortured? Torture is never okay, under any circumstances. It's still torture, despite how we try to rationalize it.

In full disclosure:

I voted for Bush twice.
I voted for Barack.
I believe torture is always evil.
I do not believe in war (I am a follower of Jesus and my study of the Hebrew and Christian scriptures have led me to this idea, as it seems to be a Christian and Jewish principle. I believe Ghandi has some incredibly insightful ideas on this subject).

Rest day workout before watching the BEARS kick butt:

5 reps 255 lbs deadlift
10 reps 55 lb KB
15 20" box jumps

5 rounds

9:45

What's that mean when you can taste blood? Time for a Miller Lite.

#48 Ryan

Interogation is a Military strategy
Intel is Military strategy.
War is a Military Activity.

Yes, sir, he mentioned Military strategy.....if you understand the verbage in civilian lingo!! You guys love to "arm-chair" the complexities of this war, but guess what guys, its rough out here and we need to win. So you guys get to keep your freedom of speech!!

Paul

I have no problem with a conscientious objector, but all war is not evil and it is possible to be a Christian or Jew and serve in the Military. Don't worry though, we'll protect you so you get to voice your opposition to protecting that freedom to worship without getting your head cut off.

LEVEL 1 CERT CHARLOTTE NC
Just wanted to say that if you are a Crossfit fan then you have got to try a CERT, just did the one in Charlotte and it was a blast, great workouts great instruction and one of the top experiences in life. I cannot say enough about all the instructors that brought so much energy to the CERT. I was hooked already with the community but now I am CROSSFIT till I die.

did cindy today, 15 rounds as RXed.

Did the level 1 cert in Charlotte this weekend and all I have to say is thanks to all of the trainers that were there: Pat and Andy, you guys are a trip. Chuck, thanks for the verbal support during Fran. Maggie, thanks for the help on the hip and back extensions. TJ, thanks for the advice. Nicole, thanks for clarification of the weird questions. Mike G, thanks for the extra kip tips. Joe, nice work with the 40lb ball. Bobbi, thanks for killing my legs on day two.

Also a big thanks to Andy H and the Crossfit Charlotte crew for hosting the gig.

Cheers

HAPPY REST DAY!!!

Thought i would do a light cardio at the gym for rest day so i did a body pump class with my mom...THOSE WOMEN ARE BEASTS haha

CarlG:

So in your worldview who is allowed to challenge and speak against military policy advanced by the political-civilian leadership? Only members of the military? Seems counter-intuitive.

You can argue that your actions protect my constitutional rights (that's debatable but I'll cede you the point), but the fact remains that the military ultimately answers to an elected civilian command. To dismiss a citizen's perspective on our policy because "he doesn't understand military strategy" is dubious. That policy was set in place by civilians and implemented by the military.

Do you truly believe that you were sent into Iraq to protect the civil liberties of U.S. citizens?

Ryan

So I'm assuming you understand now that Paul WAS in fact discussing Military strategies.

Civilians have every right to opine on military and political issues. My point was that it was obvious from his post that he had no knowledge of Military Intelligence, Interrogation techniques, or the decision to wage War. One man, the President, does not make that decision, Congress does. As far as "torture", that is a line right off CNN by those who support the ACLU. Bush used the same Intel that the rest of the suits in Congress and around the world did to get us into this mess. If you are going to opine on things you have no knowledge about, expect to get called out on it.

Btw, did you read Paul's followup, I think he got my point even if you didn't. And I think its safe to say that he in fact has no knowledge of the aforementioned tenets of Military strategy.

Hey..... so this is not going to fit in with the above comments, but I decided to do my first 4th day "Fran"..... I must say, after yesterday I was feeling pretty awesome, I more than doubled my number of rounds on "Cindy" reaching 25 complete rounds.... so I figured I would try to to beat my rather dissapointing time of 6:50 on "Fran"... I couldn't beleive it when I finished up (neither could my workout partners) I finished in 3:23..... That is so awesome for me, so once again I must say thank you to this amazing CrossFit Community. Your postings and constant flow of intel are a great source of motovation.
Thanks again.
Hooah!

I disagree with your position that discussion of torture and false pretenses of war falls solely into the definition of "Military Strategy"

I fail to see how Paul's follow up speaks to your point of "Conclusion: stick to your civilian life and leave the Military strategy to the pro's."

I find it amusing that you would mention the ACLU with such obvious derision and then tout your activities of protecting our constitutional rights.

Ryan

You and I are obviously on different wavelengths and this discussion is boring me. Agree to disagree.

m/35/222/5'11

"Mary" (2:00pm)
5 HSPU
10 Alt. 1 leg squat (pole assist)
15 Pull-ups

8 rounds, 5 HSPU, 10 Squats

"Cindy" (8:00pm)
5 Pull-ups
10 Push-ups
15 Squats

16 rounds @ 19:06...couldnt get to the pullup bar so I stopped there.

Rowed 3200m in 12:30 followed by 3x3:00 rounds of Baas.

DEFENSE!

thank you #141 calgary colin. wasn't a good day to ask a CF related question with the heated political debate going on... wasn't sure i'd get a response.

caught up on cindy today. did 16 rds in 20 minutes. few rounds subbed lat pulldowns for pull ups because i still can't do pullups without the assistance and other people were using the machine.

CarlG,

It is possible to be Christian or Jewish and be in the military. However, those who are have interesting, theological difficulties. I have discussed them many times, as I am in ministry, but there are theological issues that need to be dealt with.

How is it, however, that we as a country talk about how evil Hussein was, which his actions were, and "opine" about his methods of torture, and yet we use torture as a method of interrogation, but it's okay because we are the "good guys."

One idea to think about: during the Spanish Inquisition, there were many methods used to interrogate the Jewish Christians as to decide whether they had truly converted or not. As appalling as this idea is, especially someone who would torture in the name of the Christian God, one of their methods was very effective. It was water boarding.

If it was torture then, it's torture now. The "good guys" don't torture.

cindy: 11 rounds with 20 pound weighted vest on

I missed yesterday because of Mass and my Old Man's getting home from Iraq. So I made up today with Mary.
5 and 1/3 rounds

The shoe throwing is the only justice that guy will ever see. Hands down WORST PRESIDENT EVER.

He stunk on social issues.
He spent money more freely than any democrat.

He was/is the worst of both crappy political parties rolled into one.

God bless all the men and women who went overseas. I have utter respect for them. I have next to none for that fake texan rich boy from a rich new england family.

Lets see if the next guy does any better. I am not holding my breath, but it can't get much worse.

Took a rest on Saturday, today did 2k in the pool. Freestyle, time, 38 minutes.

couldnt pass up a midnight challenge

paired workout

55 power snatch @ 65lbs
partners turn
40 floor to overhead @ 95lbs
partners turn
30 deadlifts @ 135lbs
partners turn

for time

In regards to the shoe thrower, and in light of the fact that no one got hurt.... (Well, he got deservedly beaten after security jumped on him and dragged him off)

How about giving him some props for getting two very good throws off in a matter of seconds? (Bush, as has been noted, did a nice evasion job)

I was really quite impressed with the fact that he re-loaded and fired the second shoe before he was taken down - all the while getting his point of view across. I admire his attitude and I sometimes wonder if he Crossfits?

Also I wonder if the New York Yankees will be offering him a spot in their 09 rotation. You add him to the pitching staff with CC Sabathia and Burnet and Wang. I mean wow.... Look out!

You know, I can and have deconstructed every political position leftists take repeatedly. The simple, sad fact is that virtually everything they believe is, at root, a slogan without a reality.

Take torture. To the best of my knowledge, we have waterboarded five people, and that was in the immediate aftermath of 9/11. Bush has never said that he supports torture, or that he considers it a useful, much less moral technique. What he has said is that he will not eliminate that as a potential tool for our men in the field, on a blanket, global basis.

In so doing, he is taking a common sense approach. There is no question whatever that there have been many attacks, and many deaths, that likely could have been prevented through information gained through torture. It's also certain that we would have gotten much inaccurate information, and lost much credibility.

What is interesting about the fact of propaganda is that even though we have virtually universally refrained from using one method by which to protect ourselves, we get virtually no credit for it on the left. Torture is rarely if ever used. The Chinese use it, the North Koreans use, virtually all Arab nations use it, Africans use it, Latin Americans use it, but all anyone wants to think about is that Bush refused to forbid it.

#168 and others who want to make light of this: you know what? Real people die every day in this world in painful ways, families are split, villages torn apart, men tortured, decapitated, and blown to bits. There is much evil in this world, and the very point of democracy is to enable well meaning men and women of conscience to reason with one another as to how best to protect our nation, and support and grow what is good in this world. Sophomoric idiocy merely betrays an underlying lack of character and seriousness which is quite frankly inconsistent with the survival of government of the people, by the people, and for the people. If the People are churlish, childish cretins, they will need at some point a Messiah/Great Helmsman.

Perhaps we have reached that point. Hard to say. Regardless, you need to grow up.

Paul

How interesting that you are in Ministry. I guess you should know that we ALL have difficult theological issues to deal with. Most of my civilians friends who are Christian will agree. "Render unto Caesar". You should be thankful for all of the foiled terror plans in the US since 911 due to interogation, since Christians and Jews are the main targets.

As far as Bush favoring torture: How do you justify in your "theological" paradigm voting for Obama who openly supports and will allow partial birth abortion while bashing Bush for using means to gather evidence to save lives from murderers. A little double standard there huh Pastor?

Wow. It only took two replies to cross the threshold into:

1) The "We do this to protect you and you should be thankful" argument.

2) Using the issue of abortion as a straw man argument

For the record, I don't consider waterboarding to be torture. But the lack of oversight and transparency of what occurred during extraordinary renditions and off-shore 3rd party prisons should worry any patriot who believes in an open democratic government.

#170 -- CarlG;

I suspect that Paul does not let one issue dictate how he will vote, and probably experiences some cognitive dissonance when hitting the polling booth. I think a majority Americans experience this, and is can be found when people say "I voted for the lesser of two evils" or "I didn't vote for X, I voted against Y."

Kyle

INTERNAL MEMO -- US State Dept.

re: Shoe Throwing

Reports are circulating of a second, and perhaps third thrower of shoes at POTUS. Many leads are being investigated by those on the ground, including one shoe coming from the podium-side shrubbery and possibly another shoe coming from the grassy knoll at the left-rear area of the press conference.

Forensic and ballistic tests show that a women's size 8 Reebok entered the area around the Iraqi PM and went "down, and to the left."

K-squared: what I said applies to you too.

However, since you brought up the Kennedy assassination indirectly, I would like to share my own conspiracy theory. One you likely haven't heard. It's not the Mob, or the CIA.

You ready? Oswald assassinated Kennedy because he was a COMMUNIST. He goes to Russia, he goes to Cuba, he comes back to America, gets a gun, and kills as ardent an anti-Communist as we have produced. Remember "we will pay any price and bear any burden in defense of liberty"?

Again, it is a very interesting propaganda coup which has somehow made those working to protect us--the military--into villains in many minds.

Moreover, it is a fact of history I can't fully explain that our government, in the Cold War, rarely told us just how direct the involvement of China and the USSR were. There were 200,000 Chinese laborers in Vietnam, who freed up that many NVA to fight. There were Russians manning SAM batteries that were killing Americans.

And I truly believe that a very credible case can be made that the WMD men and material were transferred to Syria in the six month lead-up to the invasion. But no high ranking official has ever come out and said this, even though we have eyewitness testimony from at least one high ranking Iraqi.

The only way I can justify this is that political necessity prevents creating a propaganda opening for the left on this issue. No matter what Bush does, no matter how well founded and widely shared his operating assumptions, he is vilified. This is the essence of the Alinskyan mindset and method. The goal is never to create something good, but always to get power, with the assumption that you know better, and everyone will benefit from you in the drivers seat.

But why trust people who are only operating on a partisan basis?

My own bias is in favor of always speaking the truth and the whole truth as I see it. I'm not sure why Bush has sat on this one. There is likely more in play than meets the eye.

Barry,

Which part of what you said applies to me? You said a lot. Is it this:

"#168 and others who want to make light of this: you know what? Real people die every day in this world in painful ways, families are split, villages torn apart, men tortured, decapitated, and blown to bits. There is much evil in this world, and the very point of democracy is to enable well meaning men and women of conscience to reason with one another as to how best to protect our nation, and support and grow what is good in this world. Sophomoric idiocy merely betrays an underlying lack of character and seriousness which is quite frankly inconsistent with the survival of government of the people, by the people, and for the people. If the People are churlish, childish cretins, they will need at some point a Messiah/Great Helmsman.

Perhaps we have reached that point. Hard to say. Regardless, you need to grow up."

Thank you for telling me what democracy is. And I also thank you for reminding me of all the doom and gloom that is going on in the world. But wait, you also said in post 117:

"You come across as a bitter man who lacks the imagination to see the bigger picture. Yes, the whole thing could fall apart, but that is not a necessary outcome, nor even, as of this moment, a likely one.

If you want to preach doom and gloom to yourself and others all day every day, of course you will teach yourself to see only the negatives."

I apologize for trying to be funny. Obviously, I failed. Take yourself serious much?

"Defining and analyzing humor is a pastime of humorless people." -- Robert Benchley

Barry, in all fairness I must disclose:
1. I generally agree with most of what you say.
2. I am a pretty hard-core libertarian.
3. I've been in the military for almost 14 years and will continue to serve until Uncle Sam says I gotta go. I love being in the National Guard.
4. I am also a civilian criminal prosecutor, so I have (I think) a basic understanding of what democracy is and how the rule of law works.
5. I enjoy making fun of conspiracy theorists.

CFE

1.89 miles around my neighborhood in 14:48

Ryan

Ok wise guy, enlighten me to your contribution to this Great Land of Freedom then! I think you know mine.

For the record, none of my comments were directed to you, and I was simply pointing out the inconsistency in the rationalization of one who uses his faith to "bash" one leader while embracing another with a "blind" eye to the obvious; Obama will support partial birth abortion. I'm quite sure one can find a conflict there.

Also for the record, I am an African American, an Agnostic, I voted for Al Gore, John Kerry, and now Barack Obama, but when a man is my Commander in Chief, I give him the respect he's earned. The "torture" and "he lied about WMD's" arguments are rhetoric from the extreme left and you know it.

I have a very vigorous sense of humor, but it has been clear to me for some years that the point of mocking Bush is to prevent the emergence of a substantive debate. The same tactic was used with Reagan and the first Bush.

As I said, mockery is a tactic that Alinsky very specifically and strongly recommends, since it is hard to counter, and if employed often, you either get people out of the debate, or the debate goes so far south that you can criticize people for taking offense at you. You win no matter what happens, unless this tactic is specifically pointed out.

Not everything is funny. The intent of this man was very clearly to humiliate the President of the United States, who has almost alone ensured the potential for Iraqi self government (i.e. he has stood his ground despite repeated and strident calls for failure). Absent Bush, either Saddam Hussein would still be in power, or there would be a very open, very bloody civil war.

I don't mind humor, and I don't mind poking fun at leaders. But there are substantial elements of our nation who ONLY want to mock, deride, and condemn. Bush's record withstands close scrutiny. In general, he has made the decisions he thought best, regardless of the political cost to himself. Clinton and Gore both thought an invasion of Iraq would be necessary. So did John Kerry. The difference is that Bush was in the hot seat, and actually made the decision. Now everyone else can sit back and pretend his decision happened in a historical vacuum, and solely for personal reasons. This just isn't accurate.

I get tired, very tired, of people making light of serious issues. There comes a point where mockery has become such a habit, that serious, adult discussion becomes all but an impossibility.

I would rather be a serious sourpuss than a flippant comic destined to help lead my nation to the dustbin of history.

CarlG:

Let me respond to you point by point:

Point #1:

"enlighten me to your contribution to this Great Land of Freedom then!"

Baseline, as a citizen.. I pay my taxes, vote, abide by the laws put in front of me. Same as you. As an advocate, I've supported personally and financially causes which I believe protect the very freedoms you claim to be protecting. I'm not sure what quantifying our contributions to the country have to do with this debate, but you asked.. that's my answer.

Point #2:

"I think you know mine."

I assume that you are alluding to some sort of service in the military. For that you earn and enjoy a certain measure of admiration from me. But that does not translate into allowing statements I disagree with to go unchallenged.

Point #3

"For the record, none of my comments were directed to you"

You're posting on a public forum, you should be prepared to have your comments vetted publicly. If this bothers you then I suggest you stop posting in a public forum.

Point #4
"I was simply pointing out the inconsistency in the rationalization of one who uses his faith to "bash" one leader while embracing another with a "blind" eye to the obvious; Obama will support partial birth abortion. I'm quite sure one can find a conflict there."

There is conflict here and I pointed it out. Supporting one's right do something is far different than supporting the act itself. You present a false straw man argument here and I'm calling you out on it.

Point #5:

"Also for the record, I am an African American, an Agnostic, I voted for Al Gore, John Kerry, and now Barack Obama"

I honestly don't know what your race, voting record and lack of religious dogma have to do with this debate, but I have no reason to doubt the validity of any of this.

Point #5:

"but when a man is my Commander in Chief, I give him the respect he's earned."

Let's be clear. As the Commander in Chief he's earned your allegiance and, to a certain extent, obedience. But simply occupying the office of POTUS does not automatically earn my respect. To me, this is a narrative that is paramount to story of democracy in America.

Point #6:

"The "torture" and "he lied about WMD's" arguments are rhetoric from the extreme left and you know it."

Ok, here we return to the main issue I take with the arguments you present. You complain about overly simplistic rhetoric and then respond with your own brand of simplistic rhetoric. To claim that "we'll protect you so you get to voice your opposition to protecting that freedom to worship without getting your head cut off" and then later complain about "rhetoric" spouted by the extreme left seems hypocritical.

Barry, great commentary as always. I also identified long ago that the left offered nothing but mockery and used it as a weapon. It can't be engaged in serious debate and it has made me lose respect for Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert. They don't offer alternatives or honest assessments, they don't offer solutions, they don't even offer an honest effort to understand. Only offer disingenuity and mockery.

In retrospect to the GWOT and Iraq though, although I think a more holistic, rather than direct, approach may have been more effective in acheiving positive goals (more on that another time), we tend to forget that we have sent a strong message to the rest of the world about commitment and military superiority. The lefties have diluted the first but are unable to affect the second.

Ryan

Your post was well presented; however I still strongly contest several points, and we may never agree given our very different vantage points.

First, the Bible clearly opposes abortion and every practicing Christian I have ever met confirmed that. Supporting ones right to commit "murder" (in their view) is the SAME as committing the act itself. All I'm asking is for the Christians to own up to their inconsistencies and quit "cherry picking" their sacred scripture and doctrine to suit themselves. Paul hides behind his "study of theology and Judeo-Christian Worldview" to accuse Pres. Bush of being a "torturer and liar", and yet supports someone who, in my opinion, supports Christian values less than any President in memory. Bottom line, you vote where your conviction are. I know the Christian Worldview very well having grown up in a strictly Evangelical Reformed home and school.

Next, in case you have not seen the treatment of Christians and Jews worldwide, it is ugly. Most do in fact fear decapitation if caught and refuse to accept Islam. Defending America to prevent the same kind of kidnappings and decapitation by the sword in the US is not rhetoric, and Mumbai could easily happen in one of our coastal resorts anytime. Get your head out of the sand and thank the other men and women who protect you, my family, and our Nation that we've enjoyed 8 yr of terror free living, because trust me, the plans and terror cells were in place to bring more to the Mainland.

Lastly, thank you for being a responsible citizen and for defending Democracy in your own way, she is worth dying for, and I am prepared to do just that. Semper Fi!!

I6: always glad to see you posting.

I would be curious what a more holistic approach would have looked like. Certainly, as I've said often, we could have and should be doing more to support by whatever means are available moderates like Omar who just want to live and let live. One of my most valued books in my collection is Idries Shah's "Wisdom of the Idiots". It is a collection of teaching tales, by and for Muslims. They are wonderful, and it is obvious that the Sufis were fighting constantly the same sort of battle against hateful dogmatism that many moderate Christians fight here.

People like that are not just people we can work with, but good people who make the world a better place. The Sufis are being persecuted in Iran, of course, and are unwelcome in a great many other places.

So I think we need a sort of cultural sales department. I've said this many times, as I think it is an excellent alternative to violence. We are facing, in the battlefield, the products of an indoctrination in hatred and perverted Islam. How much easier would it be if those minds were never perverted to hatred, and were turned instead to building, rather than destroying. To building sound, morally whole, and financially prosperous communities. There is plenty of wealth to go around. It is violence and war that prevents its flow to those who need it most. This, of course, gives the lie to any supposed "freedom fighter" who says they are trying to help their nation, when all they are doing is wrecking it.

In the case of Iraq, Hussein had been openly flouting his own treaties for over ten years. He was mocking the West, and showing all would be jihadists that the tiger had no teeth. He hosted a "terror conference" in 2003, under the shadow of invasion, where he essentially offered to help direct the movement. His intelligence services covertly supported many Al-Queda like organizations, and he openly paid money to the families of Palestinian--how's this?--NIHILIST bombers.

We have clear military superiority to any one nation in the world. No one questions this. But what is open to question is our moral clarity. Our capacity for drawing lines, and taking action when they are crossed. If our end game is "one more round of negotiations", that is an open invitation for the mice to play. And if the mice want to play in America with large bombs, this is not only wrong, but stupid.

Bush made a hard decision, and in so doing showed that America was not fully decadent, and that there were in fact lines that could not be crossed. Through relentless leftists propaganda, Bush's firmness and clarity has been made into obstinacy and personal vindictiveness, but for those paying attention, there are still a lot of us that understand why he did what he did.

No question our initial occupation was mismanaged. If you look at almost any war, mistakes are made constantly by both sides. Churchill once said that the best general he had on his side was Adolph Hitler.

This is why persistence, and adaptability are sine qua non's in all wars, but especially new types of war we don't understand, at least at the top levels of leadership.

Bush II is/was a bad joke that can't end soon enough.

I can't understand why people who seemingly are infinitely smarter and more committed to this country than he ever was or will be (I am speaking to many people on this board) buy into this crap that he and Cheney are pushing.

He isn't conservative.
He spent all our money, and a good deal of our future money.
He stepped all over our civil liberties.
He shredded the constitution.
He degraded our reputation.

I just can't grasp the desire to line up lockstep behind him or any other so-called leader.

Merry Christmas everyone.

Hi Barry,

"Not everything is funny. The intent of this man was very clearly to humiliate the President of the United States, who has almost alone ensured the potential for Iraqi self government (i.e. he has stood his ground despite repeated and strident calls for failure). Absent Bush, either Saddam Hussein would still be in power, or there would be a very open, very bloody civil war."

I agree with you 100% here. But in my view, he (the thrower) failed miserably in an attempt to humiliate Bush, and I still find his actions humorous, because:

1. He missed. He was what, maybe 20-30 feet away, and he missed. Bush looked great in dodging the shoes, and did not even appear all that alarmed.

2. Along the same lines, Bush waived off his security and looked strong in doing so.

3. Bush was able to crack a joke and find humor in the situation right after it happened. Now if Bush can find humor in and mock the situation (ala Alinsky), I think Bush may have humiliated the thrower and twisted the knife a little further amongst those that denounce everything and anything Bush says/does.

4. The thrower ended up getting his butt kicked immediately afterwards. He will end up going to trial and serving some time in jail. Sounds a lot like the United States to me. Talk about humiliation to those that would love to see the United States/Bush fail in our mission in Iraq. A sign of success in our mission? Probably. Is our work done there? Obviously not.

Dominic,

Are you a person or a trained parrot? If you want to claim the former, please detail for us ONE specific policy with which you disagree and why. I won't defend everything he has done--I don't agree with everything he has done--but I can and will defend the fact that he made what he felt was the best decision in all cases.

His policies with the stimulus package and financial support of our financial institutions are the same things Obama would have done, and is going to do. If you are a Democrat, you should applaud this. If you are a Republican, why are you parrotting all the leftist lines about our reputation (who cares, if we are right), and civil liberties and the Constitution.

I will defend the Patriot Act until the cows come home. It is constitutional. He has not even approached the flagrant abuse of his power that was standard policy under FDR, Kennedy, Johnson, and of course Nixon.

Yes, he spent too much. Will you agree with me that the corrective is a massive reduction in the size of the federal government?

But overall I will not accept blanket, simple minded, sloganistic criticism of a man who just spent 8 years of his life trying to do what he felt was right. He's deeply flawed in many ways, but I am quite certain history will judge him a much better President than Obama, unless Obama shows a streak which is utterly at odds with his record.

K-Squared: Fair enough. I'll back off on that one. I did see quite a bit of composure there, too.

Still, the thrower--whose name I can't see troubling myself to learn--is, according to the newspapers at any rate, a hero in the Arab world.

In the long run, I guess it doesn't matter. We are there, and his shoe throwing will not affect that. Moreover, as one poster pointed out, he committed a grave violation of the principle of hospitality, and anyone who admires him ought to be ashamed of supporting such an egregious breach of that ideal.

I wanted to add, too, that the word "dog" is significant. It is much more pejorative in Islamic lands than here. Here, we kiss our dogs and talk to them, and think they understand us. There, they treat them, so I am told, quite poorly.

A martial arts instructer I used to have would often invite new students (and old students) over to his house after practice. He had a dog, and after I had come over 3-4 times he admitted that part of his evaluation process (not all students were accepted in the dojo) was watching how prospective students behaved towards his dog. He was a Sikh, and of course had not love lost for Muslims. He said that in his experience no Muslim he had ever known would want the dog within five feet of them.

Thus, calling someone a dog is something close to "vile pig". That, plus the shoe, was highly symbolic, and clearly premeditated.

too bad he didn't have a better arm

CarlG,

I respect your point of views, but I think they're presented using flawed logic.

As far as selective application of Judeo-Christian views.. well, that's almost inherent to the dogmas themselves.

Regarding mistreatment of Jews/Christians, beheadings, terror, et al... I still see this as rhetoric (as we seem to be defining it, which is taking an extreme or over-simplified characterization of something to advance a point of view)

Having said that, thank you for your service. We may disagree on what constitutes "military strategy" and "rhetoric" but that has no bearing on my admiration on those who serve.

Thanks for the intelligent and civil debate.

Have a happy and safe holiday.

R

Merry Christmas to everyone, and especially those of you serving overseas. I put myself mentally in your place, and it seems like something you deal with, but not something you will ever grow to like.

It seems to me there are some sacrifices that are never requited, time that is never regained. I can't say there is a positive in this, other than that I can't imagine living a life without some form of honor, and quite often what hurts us also teaches us what is valuable. The quicker you figure that out, the richer your life will be.

A toast to you all. May you all come back whole in mind and body, and may God grant your families the strength not just to endure, but to grow. I wish you well.

The fact that Bush actually dodged both shoes is the only thing about him I've been impressed by.

I am really ashamed of my country. Mainly for the huge disrespect that it shows for its own elected leader. You fools choose to believe the BS media and all of its propaganda. Even if you don't like him or what he has done you should still have some solidarity and not support some shoe throwing retard. besides you idiots reelected him WTF