Rest day means time for me to learn how to kip finally...

Will someone please email me and give me some pointers? 2.5 months in to crossfit, and I still don't have it down!

Thanks in advance!

That Mary Conover is pretty damn inspiring...I hope I'm still going at it when I'm her age.

Smash,

It took me longer than that to finally learn to kip. What really helped me was doing jumping pullups and pushing away from the bar at the top, then swinging into another jumping pullup. The motion just seems easier when doing it that way. Hope that helps.

Smash, what kip are you trying to learn? I recommend the Gymnastics Kip. I am not going to be able to explain it as it is very new to me, however I am convinced that it is the only kip anyone should be learning...research it and see what you come up with...sorry I wasn't more help.

much needed!!!!

Smash,

There several kipping tutorials on the exercise demos page. The Adrian demos are very good. Before them, I learned how to kip from the Eva demo. Each of these does a good job of breaking the movement down into manageable and practicable parts. I hope that helps.
Adam

When Mary started "climbing" the rope. All I could say was "beautiful!".

To all the girls who don't want to bulk up I show them Annie, Nicole or my fellow Canadian Jodi Bainbridge doing 3xBW DL.

To all the people my age (31) and up I show them the "elderly" videos and now I will show them Mary climbing a rope.

Truly magical to watch.

More than anything, Crossfit makes me feel capable.

God I love this stuff.

it helps a lot to be able to do dead hang pullups

in addition to the crossfit tutorials, there's 2 great vids on againfaster.com

http://www.againfaster.com/the-micd-instructor/
(scroll down)

shoulder flexibility is important - that limited the effectiveness of my kip initially, but it improves with time.

As a "nominal libertarian," I often wonder if our health-care system is, or actually SHOULD BE, market driven.
Comments?

LOVE the videos with Jim Baker and Mary Conover.
Such an inspiration to see a woman in her 70s training as Mary is and maintaining her 10 physical skills.
Thanks!

Two fantastic role models in that picture!

#1 -
All the suggestions (videos, etc) given so far are musts. The one thing I will add is to refrain from using the legs to get the initial swing (under the bar) going. Focus on using the upperbody / torso, saving the legs for the actual pull-up.

#9 -
I feel there are places within the health-care system that require gov't regulation. As much as I'd like the market soley to decide what stays and what goes, this particular field is more than just business; it is far more closely related to life and death. That being said, I certainly don't think they've gotten it right, so far.

--
Great video, along with the rest of the elderly series in the Journal. I highly encourage people to use these ground-based progressions of rope climbing in met-con workouts now and then, even if a full climb is already possible.

So, what's the best thing about a 2 day port visit to Hawaii? Is it the alcohol? No, but that was nice. Is it picking up civilians for Tiger Cruise, no because now I'll have to eat like crap for the next week because lines are too long. Is it the getting off the boat? No, although that was pretty nice. Sleeping in a bed? no, not really, i only slept a good 2 hours this port visit. Is it climbing a tree? That might be it. It was a pretty cool tree and I used my CF muscles to pull myself up into it. But I think the greatest part is now being on the boat and having some CF videos to watch and learn from! I got some downloaded in between the Malibu and Pineapple drinks that I was downing. I downloaded the Josh Everett does "king kong" and I'm showing it to everyone in my shop. My boy was like "maybe I'll try crossfit for a while when we get back" hell yes! Nothing like an amazing vid like that to cross over some body builders, I'll tell you what!
Anyway, that's all I really have to say because I'm pretty much only excited about these vids. Lets see how many people I can convert!

Grab the Kool Aid and GET SOME!

Damn. Roderick Long hits the nail on the head, and a bonus nail with his point on monetary inflation. Though, he regretfully omits an important, and probably, the biggest culprit; the corporate media. Media sources today, sadly, control much of the thought of the public. Whether these sources tend to lean either to the "left" or the "right" they rarely sway out of the mainstream political thought of our major political parties. Optional ideas are never even presented, and exchange of political sound bites is the majority of the discussion. They will do whatever they can to make people such as Ron Paul look as "cooky" as they can and seem as an unattractive choice because they believe in such "crazy" ideas as personal freedom.

The Cato piece was quite an over simplification.

Corporations in the pursuit of profit pursue government favor and often get it. However, it is by no means the case that corporations only exist because of government intervention.

Unless of course you mean corporation cannot exist unless the government recognizes their status. However, at their heart corporations are a series of contracts between consenting adults and there is no libertarian reason for not honoring those contracts in court.

Wal-Mart is as large as it is because there are increasing returns to scale in distribution, purchasing, inventory management and advertising.

Government helps out sometimes, but to think that Wal-Mart would fail to occupy its dominate position without government help is at complete odds with the data.

There is nothing about the cost structure of small business that suggests it could begin to provide retailing at the price that Wal-Mart does.

Corporations rise fundamentally, because central planning at certain levels is more effecient than market coordination. In response the market evolves a central planning institution.

The same thing is true with small business of a smaller scale. All employees could operate as independent contractors of their own sole proprietorship and negotiate for specific contracts.

However, it is more effecient to give managers some degree of control over their employees rather than renegotiating a contract each time there is new need. That is on a very small scale central planning.

As a "nominal libertarian," I often wonder if our health-care system is, or actually SHOULD BE, market driven.
Comments?

Comment #9 - Posted by: Stun Gun
- Stun, it is not market driven, but it is more market driven than most other nations. Many of the problems in teh present system come from the many prior govt interventions - from the monopoly that state medical boards have on who gets to be a doctor, to the govt's subsidization of health care insurance through the present tax breaks for employer sponsored health care (which benefit the wealthy most of all). Predictably, previous govt interventions create negative eventualities that become the justification for addtional govt interventions.

Holden - media, sure, but don't forget the coercive govt monopoly on schools. How many of the typical American's filters are established by the way we are taught about govt and liberty in school? How many teachers refer to the 'coercive monopoly of the state' when they teach us about govt? How much dialogue is there about the role of govt, what issue might justify the use of the coercive power of the state to compel others to do what we wish, and so forth? Did you ever even hear of libertarian political philisophy in grade school? The statists have our kids in their grip, and they get good leverage out of that; to the degree that they teach anything about govt, they teach it from the perspective that 'it's a democracy, it's by the people, for the people, and it's just great.'

I wonder how long until the first post arrives railing against libertarian notions and advocating the virtue of coercive govt power. Won't be long. "If my Party just had enough power and control over all these morons, we could make this a great nation!!"

Great rest day article, can't wait to read it again. Paul

random out of subject question: do any of the coaches have an idea of how much we need to raise in Operation Phoenix to accomplish the objective? always nice to know what we are shooting for.

#15

You claim the enormous article is an over simplification then in eight repetitive paragraphs make just one point, that big business succeeds because they are good at business. Solid.

http://myslu.stlawu.edu/~shorwitz/open_letter.htm

A piece in a related line of thought, "An Open Letter to my Friends on the Left." Paul

Jim and Mary-I love it!

#15 Karl,

A corporation is a legal construction that limits the owners' liability. Without the government, there are no corporations, only businesses.

Before you claim a business wouldn't fail without government intervention, you might want to look into the nature of the support it receives.

http://reclaimdemocracy.org/walmart/china_free_market.php

Wonder what I put in that first piece that got the attention of the span filters ...

I have to be honest, the idea of a perfect free market is wonderful. However, even with government intervention, free-market forces have such a limited or delayed impact that consumers are inevitably casualties of business-as-usual. Take tobacco or vioxx as direct examples. Subsidies are another foolish notion that indirectly hurts the consumer by falsely reducing apparent prices on some of the most unhealthy commodities which fill our grocery store shelves.

To Holden #14 The media's hold on the masses is partly to blame but let's not forget that its the individual's fault for abdicating their responsibility to their favorite media outlet to decide their vote.

The parties themselves also squash the outliers.

Nicely done Mary!!! Keep working hard! :)

#22 GE

You actually made the point that I was hinting at, but I obviously didn't present clearly enough. The problem isn't that the public has stopped trying to be informed, it is that they have passed that responsibility off to the authority of the media. Yet, if we do pessimistically conclude that people won't take this responsibility, it would be nice to have a media outlet willing to present libertarian ideas as at least "sane".

Smash I snow how frustrated you must be. It took me about 3 months to get the kip down. Now I think it is soo easy. Some get it faster than others.

Now my problem.

I know I am strong... I see it in the weights I can lift and the metcons I destroy... Why can't I do a muscle up? I was working out in a friends garage and most were able to do muscle ups without too much trouble, even though they said I am stronger than them. I bought rings. Today after to WOD and at lunch in a park... no luck.

What I learned. I have lots to learn. I am studying up on the false grip technique and will not loose focus or get mad. I will get it one day. I just hope it is tomorrow.

Honest questions, asked because I don't know:

Is not the notion of a "free market" simply a fantasy?

Does a true free market exist in any country on earth?

Has a true free market ever--in recorded history--been sustained for any non-trivial period of time?

Regarding the article, the term "free market" is nothing more than a phrase which describes a economic policy that allows smart people with money and power to take advantage of people who have neither. That is why "free market" ideology is perceived as an ideology which favors corporations. People who claim to believe in "free markets" usually do not really believe in a free market. For example, they don't complain when legislation makes it harder to form a union. So the article is a little naive although it contains a lot of interesting information and analysis.

pelch: The program goal for Operation Phoenix is $20 Million. Thanks for your support.

Smash - Most guys have trouble initially with the kip because they can do a dead-hang pull-up. I taught the Kipping PU's to the Montclair NJ crew this weekend and had many dead-hangers that all got their kips. The key is in the shoulders & abs & hips, not the legs. Think "forward C, backward C" from the hips to the hands. In order to do that, push your chest through your shoulders (arms & hips will naturally come backwards) then pull your chest back (arms & hips will natrually come forward). This will produce a mild kip but it won't get you there yet. Put your hands above your head and pretend you're pushing your arms straight down in front of you towards your feet - that's the same power & motion you need to do on the bar. Once you're reached your max height, pull "in" not "up"... like a reverse push-up. Push the bar away at the top to set you up for consecutives. You'll see all these pointers in the videos, sometimes it helps to read different words. Good luck!

pushing off the bar at the top parallel to the floor is what helped me, it creates the motion that you need at the bottem to use your hips abs and shoulders......no rest for me, I'm gonna do a traditional workout with some free weights

#26 Milan,

The question you want to ask isn't whether there are free markets. There are. The relationships you have with your friends and family is one example of a free market, the thriving black market around the work is in no small way another. But no nation has ever had a free market. Government is force and force is antithetical to freedom, in markets and otherwise.

Instead, the question you want to ask is whether government has any legitimate function.

Oh, and have I mentioned my excitement that in less than a week I'll be back on the mainland! I at least have a buddy back in Dago who will CF with me. I'm going to have to convince him to stop by CFSD with me.
Aw, just less than one week of Hangar Bay workouts left :(. Yeah, some drunk dude somewhere in Waikiki came up to me, he's from this ship, and he was like "you're that girl I always see working her ass off in the hangar bay, right?" I told him, "hell yeah that's me." He asked me what I'm doing because he always watches me from the elliptical. I told him "Crossfit, you should break chains from the machines and try it!" We'll see what happens there.

#27 Joe,

Corporations love laws that make their lives harder because it makes it harder for upstart competitors to get a foothold. Free marketers aren't, as you seem to be suggesting, pro corporate. They're anti-government.

TWO OF THE BEST PEOPLE TO BE AROUND!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm really looking forward to this workout... No really, it's nice to get a day to recuperate. Nicole spanked my behind... Can't wait til tomorrow's...

Big thanks to Pat, EC, Andrew, and the rest of the east coast crew at the Fort Dix Level I Cert 'this weekend.' Your instruction was great, classes on point, and demos educational; and it all makes a big difference in our development as athletes. Keep up the good work and thanks for your time. Christian.

Wow! I was already having a love affair with CrossFit. After seeing that Cato posting I think I'm in love.

An excellent article by someone who seems to have actually read Adam Smith, rather than simply commanding us to revere him.

49m/5'10"/229
cfwu x 3
I'm a couple days behind
"helen" 12:12
7 x 1 push jerks
135,155,165,185,190,205,210

More to: Smash

I agree that it varies from individual how long it takes to "get" the kipping technique. I wasn't very strong in dead hang pullups when I started, so I focused on the push away from the bar when I subbed in jumping pullups.

It took me about 4 months to start getting it, now after close to 6 months I feel I have the gymnastics kip down pretty good.

Now I am working on my Muscle up. Unfortunately I can only attempt dead hangs until I can get my rings raised. However, all the pullups subs I have done for MU's have definitely helped my kip!

ASwab -

Thanks for the article. All this time I don't think I genuinely understood your position, but now I feel like I do. I would like to hear Jeff's response to this article and yours, as well.

The problem as I see it is how to untangle government's tentacles. Haven't we gone too far now? I look at all of the various executive agencies and administrate law and I think that we have essentially acceded so much to the Federal Government - how is it that we actually take that back?

So many people have become happy denizens of the welfare state - and I'm not talking about people on welfare, I'm talking about hard-working Americans who simply yield personal choice to government "experts".

I know I'm speaking in generalities, but my initial response to the article is visceral - we're in big trouble. Not because it's democrats in charge - republicans, Dems, it's all the same. The trouble is that we have given away so much power, or stood idly by while it was taken, from the people to the government. And because the government employs sooooooo many people, there's a huge disincentive to cutting back on that trough.

I think you need to be careful in speaking in generalities when the devil is in the details. We need legal entities like corporations, whose legal status is protected by the police power of the State. We need copyright and patent protections, so that innovation pays.

Where the lines should be drawn, though, is a negotiable question. Should patent terms be longer or shorter? If they are too long, we are enforcing monopolies. If they are too short, we punish innovators, and decrease the flow of new ideas and products.

But at root, we need them. I don't see that as a negotiable point.

To take another example, some cities and states give tax breaks to Wal-Marts to encourage them to move in. They charge sales taxes, that become sources of revenue to those areas. But that IS anti-free market. If the police power of the State is used to give an entity a competitive advantage it didn't earn, then that is bad.

His example of highways I found unconvincing. EVERYONE, including the small business competing with Wal-Mart, benefits from decreased transportation costs. One of the best things we ever did for our economy was build a national highway system.

Federal funding for highways, by the way, used to be a very contentious issue. The Democratic Republican Party in particular resolutely opposed any Federal involvement in highway or railway building. This actually hurt the South in the Civil War, since the North had a much better rail system, if memory is serving.

Some government involvement is needed, but we need to disincentivize leaning on the government. To take one example, we offer FDIC protection. This is a good policy, that likely prevented economic catastrophe a month or two ago.

However, it was never intended to bolster stupidity on the part of business owners, and trips to the figurative roullette table. For that reason, we should have rules set on it.

For example, we could pass a law stating that if a bank fails, and makes use of FDIC money, the Board of Directors does a year in jail. Or their use their own money to collateralize the bank debt, meaning they are all personally wiped out if the bank fails.

All policies like this have both foreseen and unforseen results, but something like this would make sense. Less loans would be made, and fewer business startups funded, less homes bought. But the whole thing would be stable.

I will agree that many specific policies out there don't make sense, but I don't think you can make blanket generalizations about whether we are free market or not.

I do think the Big Three would benefit from a nice tonic of Chapter 11, though. Toyota is making money. What the hell is wrong with them? Could it possibly just be hubris and professional incompetence?

There are three reasons why the auto companies formerly known as the "big 3" can't make money.

U
A
W

Thank God...

Excellent choice of articles given the context of the threads from the last rest day. For me, it struck chords still echoing faintly, yet clearly from the Jeffersonian and Hamiltonian visions of America, its economic organization and governance.

Interestingly, their competing visions still resonate in the "Red State / Blue State" electoral maps. To really see the mosaic, a county by county view of election results is telling, in spite of the confused and conflated political nature of current ideologies regarding the role of government in economic activity as outlined in the article.

Great stuff, especially the piece about the libertarian left. Who knew ?

Thanks to Apolloswabbie at #18 for that link. Reading it is a "deja vu" experience for me, though. I recall posting a abridged version of that without the citations for a Rest Day on the Housing Crisis after explaining the economics to my father-in-law. I believe I called the CRA the "anti-redlining law" at the time.

The most important law then and now is the "law of unintended consequences."

I have offered this opinion at times before: it seems as though we are presently living the first 800 pages of "Atlas Shrugged". When will the producers revolt?

TANSTAAFL.

#17

You claim the enormous article is an over simplification then in eight repetitive paragraphs make just one point, that big business succeeds because they are good at business. Solid.

----------------------------------

My point is not simply that big businesses are big because they are good a business but that BIGNESS itself can produce efficiencies.

The evolutionary dynamic that controls business in a free market culls several large firms from the pack because that is a more efficient organization of resources.

In this case the "winner" firms sometimes only have to be Epsilon better than the losers to wind up giants.

#20

Thats why I made the point that at its heart a Corporation is a nexus of contracts. Those contracts limit liability. If you think the government should enforce contracts thats all you need for a corporation.

In a larger sense liability itself only exists because the courts enforce it. So we can't think of any business in the modern sense existing without some government in the background enforcing agreed upon rules.

As for Wal-Mart and China. Wal-Mart takes advantage of low Chinese prices, but the key is the size of the effect.

The leap your piece makes is to say, they get a huge benefit from depressed wages (and presumably currency) THEREFORE they could not survive in a free market.

But I don't think the cost accounting supports that. Wal-Mart does its end of the supply chain more efficiently than competitors, especially Mom and Pop.

So its hard to see how Mom and Pop are going to compete regardless of what happens upstream.

One of the things I've been wondering for about a year is why Warren Buffet decided to go Democrat before the primaries even began.

One would think, that relative regulatory relief, and relatively lower taxes would present a strong reason for any businessman to vote Republican in every election. Republicans haven't balanced the budget, but Obama is going to make things much worse with his healthcare plans and sundry other programs.

Yet this piece makes clear, I think, that smart businesspeople can in fact use both increased regulation and increased taxes to strengthen their competitive advantages. In Buffet's case, of course, he is thinking to the relative strengths of his holdings, but the point is the same.

Taxes are stress on businesses. So are regulations. The Big Boys can handle it. It's like a strong wind that comes along, blowing down the weak and infirm. And once the wind is done, those companies are better positioned, with less competition, and hurdles to jump for would-be newcomers.

Moreover, recesssions and depressions are great opportunities for people with cash. Everything gets cheap. Buffet is apparently buying a lot of stocks right now.

One other thing that occurred to me is that the media is owned by big business. It is big business. Fears of economic slowdown can be fanned, or extinguished through the power of the media.

You could--and I'm not saying this is happening, merely pointing out a possibility--speculate that tremendous money could be made by manipulating the public's perception of the economic situation. You get people to panic, they leave bargains on the table. If you're a day trader, you buy low, then sell on good news later in the week. If you're Warren Buffet, you use the news to pick up stocks you wanted at attractive prices.

Now, even if my little conspiracy theory is right--and I'm fully aware this is unfalsifiable, like all good conspiracy theories are--I don't think people sit around in a room and plan strategy.

Rather, I think each news station compares itself to the others, and what news seems to be selling. Bad news is always good news, since people get concerned, and want to hear it. This makes a cascade of pessimism not unduly difficult to create.

With respect to the Big Three, a nice dose of Chapter 11 might do the UAW a lot of good too. If they are the problem--and personally I think blame needs to be apportioned on all sides--then they might just learn their lesson.

Nicole-6 rds 130 pullups-
very 1st rd got quarter size tear on #33
could only get 20 per round till last 1 then got 17
finally got butterfly kip down and boy what a difference
kinda bad timing on tear-got level 1 cert in Ohio this weekend and stoked.
gonna be fun!!!

you are such an inspiration, mary. nice work.

I know some of you just wish I would shut up, but I receive enough encouragement from others that I continue. I'm sure I probably am a bit self important, but the condition is not as severe in person as it might appear on here.

One last thought, then I'm out of computer range for a while.

Lately I've been working so hard I find it hard to speak at the end of the day. I'm running into things. This is a suboptimal condition for rationally evaluating things, and I think it has affected my ability to balance my ideas on the Obama Presidency.

Therefore, I wanted to speak to what COULD be some positives.

First off, a big part of the problem with the Palestinians is they are holding out for better deals. Since Carter, we haven't elected a really soft, liberal President. Whatever deal Obama puts on the table will be the best deal they will ever get. They know he is sympathetic to them. He went to Rashid Khalidi's going away party, and appears to be looking at appointees with Pro-Palestinian biases.

If he proposes, as it appears he may, that they return to pre-1967 boundaries, in exchange for renouncing the "right of return", they may go for it. If Israel accepts that, and the Palestinians still attack, they will have lost ALL of the tenuous claim they had to moral legitimacy. This has always been a war for public opinion, and that would be a bad defeat, particularly if Obama was morally coherent on that issue.

Second ray of light. Our children are trained from birth to death to be nice. To love puppy dogs, and to oppose any and all hurts of any kind to anyone for virtually any reason.

When you look at the totalitarian regimes we've seen, they emerged from places and peoples that were not nice. Bolsheviks had just fought WW1, or many of the people involved had. China fought the Japanese. The Cambodians were involved in the Indochina War, and were used to very harsh conditions of life.

Professors are nice. They may make horrid statements in the abstract, but individually they are moral cowards, and unlikely to find people who can understand their cant and be anything else.

Our military swears an oath to the Constitution. This is one more aspect of the brilliance of our system. I will add, in this regard, that if this finding has not been made, that it would be useful for senior officers to get legal clarification--from whatever authority they trust--on the conditions under which their fealty to the Constitution would take precedence over their role as subordinates to the Commander in Chief.

This will likely never be needed, but it would be useful to have that in advance, if such a document doesn't already exist.

Finally, I think overall we needed to do this. This election purges, I think, a lot of the latent hatreds and resentments that have been boiling since the 60's. They got their man. People in Seattle actually value and respect the flag again.

This might enable, over time, more rational discourse. They got their man, and he is going to try and do the sorts of things they have wanted done. If he succeeds, we may be able to agree in 4-8 years that the ideas--while good on paper--simply don't work.

And if they work, then so much the better. That is not my anticipated outcome, but I've been wrong many times before. Whenever I anticipate an outcome, there is always a placeholder for the completely unknown, and for me being completely wrong.

This is a bit mean, but there is a kid in my kid's school who is quite slow. He compounds it by being a constant nuisance to everyone. I told them to visualize him with wings like Cupid flying around, periodically shooting people with arrows of stupidity.

The thing is, you never know the moment you get hit, but if you keep your perspective, you will figure it out quicker than if you assume that brains and results always create coherent wholes.

Sorry for my long-windedness.

Make-up day Push-Jerks

I just started working at an AF Base, where we have a rather large community of X-fitters but the gym does not quite have the facilities to do X-FIT, There is an old racket ball court that is currently used for (Jazzercise or what ever, not that I have anything against it) and has few medicine balls.

What I need help with from the XFIT community is ways to convinced base officials to buy equipment for X-FIT, I am really looking for is back extension, kettle bells, GH sit-up bench, (they already have weights and bars in the main gym)

If anyone has done this before please email me or do a post.

Thanks JJ

Great video with Jim and Mary. She is an inspiration. I feel like I got a workout reading that article and all of the comments...whew!!!

#48

One would think, that relative regulatory relief, and relatively lower taxes would present a strong reason for any businessman to vote Republican in every election.

Unless you believe that infrastructure and education spending, coupled with market stability are more important for growth.

While lower taxes all else held equal, would be an incentive for growth. All else is not held equal.

Lower taxes mean either lower spending or higher deficits.

I don't want to go into a long post on the details of spending but I will say as an outline that it is does not work out the way many people assume.

For example, as a Percentage of GDP spending under Reagan was higher than Carter, GHWB or Clinton.

Indeed, under Clinton spending contracted dramatically. Which is half the reason we started running a surplus. The other half of course was higher taxes.

So, in terms of what the government extracts from the economy there is no indication that you get less under the GOP.

Taxes of course are lower, but that implies lower spending on some items that promote growth and higher deficits.

Also Barry I would point out that Wall Street gives to Democrats 2-1 over Republicans. In honesty that has more to do with Social Policy than Economic Policy. But, I don't think there is any consensus for the GOP in business.

Bingo,

One of the shortcoming's of Rand's narrative in Atlas Shrugged, and with the "Who Is John Galt" interlude, is that neither recognize that the so-called producers share much more with Peter Keating (the second-hander)and Ellsworth Toohey than with Howard Roark or even Hank Rearden.

Lets admit that today's Taggarts should not be thought of as "captains of industry" and that if the Taggarts ever existed, they are now extirpated - there are no longer captains of industry as there are in Rand's Romantic/Capitalist allegories, there are, in the main, directors/managers and share-holders.

If the so-called "producers" were to shrug today, they would be replaced by other managers with similarly short-term outlooks (i.e., share-holder pressures).

I thought the article was better than usual and from a quick skim think today's comments are too.

#25

I too was very strong in pullups, and finally got the kip down after about 4 months of watching every video I could (part of the problem with being in Afghanistan...no trainers)

I was getting my butt kicked by the muscle up and the false grip when I came across this article and it's workout "3 weeks to a muscle up" worked like a charm...here's a link: http://www.powerathletesmag.com/pages/muscleup.htm

Prole:

A little time-stressed to give your post the time it deserves, but in the mean time WRT "captains of industry":

Michael Dell, Steven Jobs, the Google Founders, Amgen founders, Bill Gates as a young man, Hewlet and Packard, the founder of Intel...

What if the present day version of each of these individuals, recoiling at the efforts of the Keatings and the Toohey's, simply stopped? What might have happened to the banking system if, say, Goldman Sachs refused to "accept" the Fed's investment (which was forced on some 10 relatively healthy financial institutions so that 20 less healthy institutions would not be scarred and trampled by their need/acceptance of aid) and just went on as before? Or closed? Took their ball and left the sandbox? What if the Mayo Clinic, demoralized by the demand that they treat patients covered by government "insurance" wherein each encounter is a financial loss on a true cash flow basis, simply disbanded?

Rand's under-appreciated point is that there is an excellence scale, a concrete value metric that exists in all human endeavor. Surely, in your example and in all of mine, the producers who withdraw will be replaced by others, some perhaps even occupying the same spot of the excellence scale. But on balance that would NOT be the case, for true producers and achievers are, if not rare, then certainly scarce.

Question, I'll be doing the WOD from Tues, and was wondering what the diff between a push jerk and jerk was....

Took yesterday as my day off. Went back to it hard at CrossFit Kingston with Andrew. He put me through a doozy.

A scaled down version of "Pain Storm Griptastic"

400m row
1 pood KB swing left arm then right arm x 40
400m row
30-lb DB snatch left arm then right arm x 40
400m row
30-lb DB clean and press left arm then right arm x 40
400m row
1 pood KB swing botrh arms x 50 (supposed to be 40 but wasn't thinking properly...thinking about the burning)
1 pood Turkish Get-Up x 50 (25 per side alternating) (once again supposed to be 40...oops!)
row 400m

TIME: 52:06

.... and I'mmmmmmmm done!!! An hour later and my forearms are burning just typing this.

Brian, push jerk = jerk (overhead)

Forgot to mention that today was the first time I got to "play" with kettlebells. Had to use dumbbells for the snatch and clean and press. Just didn't have the form down to use kettlebells.

The total for Operation Phoenix as I'm posting this is already $71,400! After reading so much about government intervention I started to wonder what could be more efficient than when PEOPLE decide to get involved?! I'm not anti-government by any means, but I feel so much more confident that WE can help properly outfit the Marines than if the gov. came asking for the same $20 million. CrossFit is awesome!

to anyone--

I have asked this to a lot of trainers in my area, and can't get an answer I want. My problem is that when I do kipping pull-ups with an overhand (palms facing away) grip, my shoulder partially dislocates on the down swing. I know what the problem is with the shoulder (had a torn laberum repaired with orthoscopic surgery), but how do I fix it? It doesn't happen when I use an underhand grip (palms toward me), but my grip fails faster and my times are slower.

--Stephen "GNC"

I really enjoyed the article. Probably the most balanced I’ve ever read on CrossFit.com.

It seems to me that the problem isn’t regulation or lack of it per say… But rather the quality of regulation that counts. Obviously some regulation is necessary for any free market system, such as the regulation upholding private property: laws against theft and fraud, etc. Some regulations are obviously harmful, such as the regulation stating that a corporation is actually a person… which it clearly is not.

The question is then: how do we decide which regulations are necessary and which are not? And more importantly: Can we, given human nature and the nature of political organization, come up with a way of selecting the right regulations that will not be co-opted by special interest?

My favourite libertarian (John Parson, “Freedom is a Two-Edged Sword”) pointed out that the state’s responsibilities are: to protect individual rights from all groups large and small, the rights of small groups from larger groups and from powerful individuals, and all individuals and groups from the power of the state. The impetus to regulate begins and ends there. He also said, writing in the late 40s, early 50s (and again I paraphrase): It is a sad day when the Left argues for total regimentation while the Right advocates for total irresponsibility.

#64

I sometimes use an alternating grip; i.e. one hand palm faces in - other hand palm faces out.

Hope it helps; good luck in your CF efforts!

#27 -- maybe prostitution and drug trafficking fall into this category...?

#34 Chris

What? I own my own company and the last thing I want is new laws that make my life harder. These laws do nothing but increase my cost and, thus reduce my profit.

You're incorrect -- businesses do not embrace these laws, and those that survive for any length of time find far more constructive ways to take on the competition, whether they be established or newly formed enterprises.

Where in the world did you get adopt that paradigm?

#44

UAW = U Ain't Workin'

Hahahahaha

F#ck corporations and the government. They are all just trying to rip everyone off! They really don't care about anything but $.

Crossfit rules! Get some...

I asked a girl out today as RXd. She turned me down because I'm too short.

#26 Corey - you may want to try jumping muscle ups to get used to the feel. That's how I started and now I have no problems with doing them. I think it's kind of a mental thing just like when you learn to ski/board and try to make your first turn.

#28 Joe - I'm curious what would be your ideal "free market" and how would it work.

#71

Sorry Rhabdo....I've heard, rejection is God's protection. Keep tryin

Made up Nicole from yesterday
6 rounds 57 pull ups
13/10/9/8/9/8

#52 Barry - I don't have the chance to process a lot of your post, but I love your idea here:

Our military swears an oath to the Constitution . . . it would be useful for senior officers to get legal clarification--from whatever authority they trust--on the conditions under which their fealty to the Constitution would take precedence over their role as subordinates to the Commander in Chief.

This would be great. I can see it being possible, and even easy in certain circumstances, to lose sight of the oath, and the opportunity to get advice on this topic would be a powerful moral check on action - assuming it would be used. I'm sure there would be some flaws/challenges to be worked out, but it's got real promise.

#71 Rhabdo:

Keep trying. Some lucky gal is out there waiting to meet you. I envy her!

m/48/6'/205
I am new to Crossfit...this is my first post. Began 11-9 and loving it. Have a traditional bodybuilding and cardio workout background so coming to this in "good shape" but not Crossfit shape! Giving the WOD full energy and devotion (and recovering otherwise) and look forward to lowering my times substantially. Yesterday Nicole was 6 cycles but it took me 21:00 total to get that last cycle in. Total 35 pullups using assist from resistance band. My pullups stink! I do OK some days but some things I am horrible at (inverted burpees, push/jerk).

#71 Rhabdo

But does she know how strong you are???

Nicole rx'd
starting to get sick but not sick enough to miss a wod
kept the 400 mt more like a jog to not push it
tried to keep pullups consistent: 12/12/12/7/12/7

not great but at least I got it done

#77

I love You little fella

Im sorry # 71

Wal-Mart succeeds because people shop there.
The "Big 3" fail because they are short sighted and stagnant.
Goverment does what it does because we let them.

Do everything you can to eat off your own land, or buy/trade with the people closest to you.

Stop taking 7 years to pay for a car.
Stop taking 30 years to buy a house.
Stop giving money to people who make money off of money(insurance, banks, stocks, government)
Stop using credit cards.

Start being an individual and not just a consumer.

Geez Rhabdo, maybe you're asking out the wrong chicks. It seems there are a few on this board that would take you up on dinner and a few drinks ~

Nothin' much better than a CF chick anyway.

Hey Nadia --> what a Wicked Game you play. Hahaha ~ I heard it on the radio today and thought of you. :-)

Rhabdo

You what they say about short guys do you at least have big feet

That is an awesome video!! I have been trying to convince my 78 year old mother to try CrossFit and this is going to help me do it.. Way to go Mary!

Did a WOD from Crossfit Petranek today.

100 Pull-ups for time
**at every break in pull-ups, complete 20 dips. I did 10 dips instead.

35 PU's 10 dips
22 PU's 10 dips
20 PU's 10 dips
23 PU's 10 dips

13 minutes

Third day of Paleo!!!

m/29/5'9"/168#

Had to take my rest day yesterday, caught up today.

"Nicole"

Max rounds in 20mins of:

-400m Run (ran @ 10.0 on the treadmill today,couldn't face the hill on my outside route today)
-Max pull-ups (did butterfly pull-ups for the first time in a WOD today. Some were not so good, but at times I felt I was hitting a good rhythm. I'm close to locking them in.

As Rx'd - 8 rounds, pull-ups: 20,20,15,13,14,14,15,15.

I believe that an elimination of government waste and bureaucracy must begin in an understanding and appreciation that the government is the sole representation of what we are when we come together as a nation. If we only think of it as that which is wasteful and bad, then what are we saying about ourselves?

I found many points in the article compelling, one especially so. Much of the de-regulation of the past two decades has, in fact, been a monopolization of resource allocation by a government-sponsored corporation. This is certainly not a free market. However, which is better to resist this impulse, a strong government that has the resources and knowledge to accurately and patriotically carry out all of our best interests, or a weak government that is told at every turn that it is fundamentally not up to any task at all?

Finally, I think that a discussion about the privatization of our military during the current conflict would be interesting. As an agency of the government, how is the military the same or different? Can any of its strengths be carried over into civilian bureaucracy in order to make a stronger government?

i didn't rest. i rested yesterday. i did this instead:
as many rounds in 20 of
- 5 thrusters
- 7 hang cleans
- 10 SDHP
i did better than last time i did this.
7 rounds +5 thrusters +7 hang cleans!

This is the most thoughtful, worthwhile article (on a political subject) ever posted on a rest day. Thank you. I downloaded it so I can read it a few more times.

Made up Nicole and posted the results on yesterday's comments.

I usually have active rest days... but today, I am gonna crack open a cold one and not do a damn thing.
See you all tomorrow.

Can't wait.

Day 1 of "rest day tabata"

Schwinn Airdyne
88 calories

anyone care to join? Tabata anything and post

Today was supposed to be my rest day, but I can't stop myself from getting in a little competition at the gym.

Warmed up with an awesome yoga session.

Jackie - 7:30 as rx'd (about a 5min PR)

As the article suggests, where persons (including corporations) accumulate wealth (through economic activity), some will use it to influence legislators (through political activity) in order to accumulate more wealth etc.

It seems to me the real concern lies in having a system of politics that recognizes this and attempts to minimize the negative (i.e. wasteful, liberty-destroying, power-concentrating) tendencies in this economic-political-economic tendency toward corruption.

Thoroughgoing libertarian laws in a democracy would tend toward aristocracy/plutochracy. Thoroughgoing redistributionist laws would tend toward autocracy/dictatorship. A mixed constitution with a mixed economy can (and has, though not always) stopped the "corrupting" process. The idea is to preserve as much individual liberty as is compatible with a balancing mechanism that makes it possible to avoid class warfare and/or dictatorship. It seems that redistributionist policies are part of the package of the mixed constitution.

Without a mixed constitution, political society relies on the virtue of whichever entity rules (the one, the few or the many). With a mixed constitution, political society can rely less on the virtue of whichever entity is as each, even when behaving at its worst, is checked by the other. Cato, as

A libertarian society would not last long as a libertarian society.

Bingo,

Thanks for the response. Too busy myself. I'm sure we'll get on to Rand some other time.

What a difference a new rest day makes! :-)
#65 Rob Morrison -- those are great quotes ... after the questions come the personal actions to help our elected officials be accountable to us.

#25 Holden -- I think youtube.com and blogs on the Internet have helped people see perspectives counter to the CNN & Barney Frank spin. For example, John Mauldin is a thoughtful economist who warned of the credit traunches and ramifications of failed letters of credit in global shipping.

#75 Nick -- your comments troubled me the most ... I've felt troubled over some of the U.N. actions the U.S.of A. has participated in under other nations' commanders as violating the oath ... and troubled at an unvoiced implication of military choice separating the vow to the Constitution from the vow to our superiors. That is a slippery slope of choice.

To those inspired by Mary:

I am proud to say she is my friend and works out regularly here at NSC (when not training with Jimmy!). And yes, she's inspiring (you should see that deadlift/bench/row workout)! However, what you may not know is how freaking smart she is!I wish I had half of her knowledge.

Mary, you always have a hug from me!

Your friend,
Robin

Rest day seems as good a place as any to ask this question - I am new to crossfit - week 2...are these WODs supposed to be standalone workouts or are they supposed to be combined with additional exercises. I saw the "warm up" video, which is a workout in itself, in my opinion. Some of these WODs seem to be very short/easy and some look like they could take hours to complete (i.e. the 50 of everything one, not sure of the name). I like to run, have completed a couple marathons and half marathons in the past few years and have scaled back the miles to only 10 or 15 per week as time permits. As my job has changed, I don't have nearly as much time to workout. Does it make sense to do some sort of minimal warm up and just the WOD and expect results? I used to be a 1.5 to 2 hours in the gym or out on the road type, but I just don't have that kind of time anymore... I am frustrated by that, but can't change it - so I am hoping the intensity of the WODs will make up for the lost time in the gym.

M2 #96... first off, none of these workouts are easy. If you attack them correctly (which you will learn how to do) none of these are as "easy" as they may first appear. Give it your all, and if it seems too easy, push harder.
Secondly, the WOD should be enough for you. You can add in other exercise if you want, i.e. running if you want. Check out crossfitendurance.com if that's something you like to do. You can pick up another sport as well if you want. You can definitely do the WOD and expect results. If you're not getting what you're expecting out of it, it probably means you're not hitting it as hard as you possibly can. Hell, I have to scale down for most WODs, few people have to scale up. Just take a good hard look at the intensity you're giving each workout, I doubt you're hitting it with everything you have. I don't mean to put you down, that's just a fundamental part of Crossfit that so few people look over, and it's easy to spot when people do that because they underestimate the WODs.
Good luck and keep drinking Crossfitting!
Grab the Kool Aid and GET SOME!

I mean "a few people look over" not "so few."

I can't believe I missed this article last night. I actually know Roderick Long. He teaches at Auburn University and in my capacity as former VP of the AU Libertarians I got to know him.

For everyone who enjoyed reading the article (even if they disagree) check out mises.org and Roderick's personal blog http://praxeology.net/blog/

And no Dr. Long doesn't crossfit.

I know this has nothing to do with the workout of the day but i need some specs on the flying pullup bar. I need to know the angle of the bars and how far apart... please help

holy smokes!! That lady's awesome. Sign her up for the 2009 Crossfit Games.

#94 Michael - given the derogation of our leadership from the Constitution over the last eight years, and even before, it seems that it might not be a bad idea to build in other failsafes. I realize that loyalty and obedience are important in military situations, and that it would be untenable to have privates suddenly decide that "the Constitution" demands that they take a nap instead of training. At the highest levels, however, I feel that it might be worth working into. Not to mention, this wouldn't be a totally individual choice - I certainly don't have a working mock-up of the system, but I would imagine that there would be an independent office created to advise the higher-level commanders.
As a question, though, which UN actions involving US soldiers under the command of other nations have set your spidey-Constitutional sense tingling? (No offense intended.) I'm curious: would that invalidate any action where US troops are not entirely US-led, essentially forcing us out of many operations, or are there particular elements that you find troublesome?

Mr. Baker,

Thank you for such a simple display of how crossfit can save anyone! Your work is so important.

Jamie Stumpf
CFC

Be careful with the idea that the military should interpret the constitution for itself. Armed services serve. They serve elected governments in democracy – that’s how it works. Any deviation is frightening.

I know governments in our so called democracies here in the West often prove themselves to be anything but democratic in spirit. However, that is a problem to be fixed system wide the only way a democracy can be fixed – by pro-active citizens. Don’t consider letting a hierarchical (essentially fascist) organization with the capacity for physical force make such corrections.

I love the military and I’m a member myself, but the military was designed for one purpose only and political decision making in a democracy is not part of it.

38/M/180/6'

10 Kb swings 62lb
5 burpees
5 sdlhp 75lb

amrap 20min: 14

Crossfit Endurance
Time Trial
Only Completed 17:30 minutes
8.6 MPH

Crossfit Endurance
Only completed 17:30 Minutes
at 8.6 MPH

Crossfit Endurance
only 17:30 minutes
8.6 MPH

Crossfit Endurance
only did 17:30 minutes
8.6 MPH

Crossfit Endurance
only completed 17:30
8.6 MPH
1% Grade

I find the phrase "so called democracies" interesting. The point of our sytem, as it has evolved from its beginnings, is to involve the mediocre and ignorant to the extent possible. If you want to vote, it is merely necessary that you be a citizen.

In the most recent election, you very literally had people voting themselves what they hoped would be increases in their entitlements.

As for me, I think we have too much democracy. The point of the land ownership requirement for much of early voting was that people who stood to lose from lousy economies or poor leadership would more carefully consider the choices with which they were presented for a variety of offices.

My own opinion is that anyone who earns more than 50% of their income from government handouts should not be allowed to vote. They have a conflict of interest. It can be argued that some businesses have conflicts of interest as well, but at least they pay taxes.

If you are not a participant in the production side, you should not be a participant in the consumption side.

Obviously, bad things happen to good people.
For reasons beyond their control, responsible, motivated people sometimes wind up on the dole. However, this is and should be a shameful thing, that is as short lived as possible.

I will say something about education if I have time. Net net the Democratic ideas with respect to education have been uniform failures.

Well, either everyone is busy, or speechless at my audacity. Danton put it well: "De l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace" ("Audacity, more audacity, always audacity"). Sometimes I think someone could use that word again with similar political effect.

Be that as it may, let's discuss education. Couple facts:

1) Within the Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development, which includes all of Europe, North American, Japan, South Korea, and a few others, we spend the most per student K-12.

2) We perform poorly internationally on standardized tests which measure knowledge needed to succeed in an information economy.

3) A very high percentage of our spending does not go to teachers. One example, for the school district of Los Angeles. Their budget was 3.6 billion dollars. One third was spent on people who never see kids, and only $83 million was spent on textbooks.

4) The National Education Association (which won't release hard numbers) appears to spend roughly one lobbying dollar in ten in elections. 98% of it goes to Democrats.

5) We are getting dumber. One measure: in 1972 116,630 Americans scored 600 or higher on the verbal part of the SAT. In 1992, even though many more kids took the test, the number has shrunk to 75,243. The company that administered the test did the only thing they could: they reworked the test, so that with new scoring we are back to where we were, approximately, with the obvious caveat that all that has really happened is the test has been diluted.

6) It is virtually impossible to administer discipline in most schools without fear of a lawsuit. This is the logical and foreseeable result of two Supreme Court decisions with which most of you are likely unfamiliar.

1969: Tinker versus Des Moines School District. Kids wore armbands protesting the Vietnam War to school. The Administration told them to take them off. They sued, and the liberal Supreme Court--the members of which no doubt privately supported such protests--ruled that school children had a Constitutional right to free speech.

1975: Goss v. Lopez. Kids rioted in a cafeteria. They were suspended for ten days. They filed suit to protest their suspensions, and another liberal Supreme Court found they had a Constitutional Right to Due Process. This, of course, made it between difficult and impossible to get persistent trouble makers out of the schools.

There's more. The Democrat's Individuals with Disabilities Act, which was intended, publicly, to make sure that kids with disabilities were provided for, included a provision making kids with emotional disturbances covered under the Act.

The provision stated that virtually no matter what kids did, if the school couldn't prove it wasn't related to their "disability", they couldn't be removed from "normal" classrooms. They caught two kids with guns, for example, in Connecticut. The kid who wasn't "classified" got a one year suspension. The other kid, equally guilty, got a 45 day suspension, and special, individualized services.

Here is the simple reality: other nations outperform us with larger classes, and less money spent for the simple reason that they maintain order, and non-negotiable expectations in the classrooms. They have no interest in talking about feelings, beyond normal personal interactions, but insist that minimal standards MUST be met. They standards include behaving properly.

Even in our own country, Catholic schools teaching non-Catholics, with ethnic diversity proportionate to those of local public schools in the same areas, consistently post MUCH better results.

In New York City, a councilor challenged the Catholics to take the bottom 5% of the cities students to see what they could do. They accepted the offer. Before they could do the experiment, the people in office changed, and the idea was quietly dropped.

In my own view, in pondering these things, we need to use notions both of positive and negative rights.

A negative right is the right to be free from arbitrary arrest. A positive right is the right to walk down the street without being assaulted.

Within classrooms, students who want to learn should be provided with a classroom that is managed by an adult in such a way that order is preserved. This is necessary for focus and learning.

And yet, the "rights" of hooligans are protected to such an extent that the much more legitimate rights of honest students who are doing their best, are trampled. Do you really think prominent Democrats send their kids to the schools where this happens? Of course not. Most of them go to private schools. Jesse Jackson Jr. sure as hell didn't go to public school in Chicago.

And here is a statistic you won't see quoted often: according to the National Assessment of Educational Progress test, black twelth graders are, on average, four years behind white and Asian students.

And where 20% of white students score "below basic"--which amounts to an F in the subject matter--more than 50% of black students scored below basic in math, science, U.S. History, civics and geography. In science, it was close to 80%.

At the risk of stating the obvious, we live in an information economy. The statistics on money spent on inner city schools is comparable to nations that are vastly outperforming us. A moment's contemplation will tell you that an environment where trouble makers can't be removed, and where gun detectors are needed, is not going to produce very good results.

I have recently been accused of being a racist by several people, for my adamant opposition to Obama. In point of fact, I view myself as less racist that the average Democrat. I think the African Americans in this nation are fully up to vastly improving their results on an array of tests, virtually immediately, IF WE DEMAND IT OF THEM.

Democrats, on the other hand, think that things that happened 30-200 years ago have left such a stain that the only solution is continued faith in Democrats, who will keep pouring good money after bad, in pursuit of policies that are abject failures, but which keep getting them votes.

Me, I think if we put smart people in place who are empowered to kick ass, we have plenty of hope, with less money spent than we are spending now.

That won't happen, of course, but on some level, at some point, one can hope that the Democrats will finally begin to feel at least a trace of shame at the abuse they heap daily on the least advantaged of our nation, in the form of sycophantic manipulativeness, and indifference to human suffering.

These problems--all of them--can be solved. We just need balls and a plan.

Speak of the devil. Went to look at my email, and found out that most of our elected officials don't properly understand our system of government:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081120/od_afp/ushistoryeducationoffbeat

Here's the link: http://www.americancivicliteracy.org/resources/quiz.aspx

I got 100%, and will only admit that with the caveat that I would not have in college. I remember asking a Vietnam veteran (3 tour SEAL at that) how many people were in the Senate, when we were watching the vote for the 1991 Persian Gulf War. He said 100, and I promptly went and hid somewhere in shame.

I was a National Merit Scholar at a very good school. I knew the answer, but somehow it had escaped me.

This is the norm, though, any more. Our best students are ignorant, unless they realize it, and take measures to rectify it, as I have over the last 5 years or so. There are no required classes in U.S. History at Harvard or Yale, Princeton, or Brown. And if there were, one suspects they would focus on our crimes, while ignoring the many and much more numerous crimes of others, and neglecting the very real good we have done in a world whose history makes you progressively sicker the more you know about it.

Barry,

A quick comment, not enough time right now for an extended contemplation.

Alas, you seem to be right about ignorance, even amongst the best of students. I took the Civic test, and came to the conclusion that a sad state of affairs must have arisen whereby a minor - who has no formal education in US history, and who has lived in Europe for their entire life - is able to score in the top 12% of respondents (73%; by my standards, certainly not a particularly noteworthy score.)

More comments to come, hopefully.

Something like what they do overseas might be useful here. They administer a test roughly in the 5th grade, that determines what educational track you follow. Democrat politics aside, not everyone can be above average. Some people need to be plumbers, so why not teach them early, so they can reach their maximum earning potential as rapidly as possible?

The teachers can teach to a relatively uniform level of talent and preparation, with the result that everyone learns more, and is better prepared to meet the challenges of life.

We used to be serious, as recently as the early 1960's. There is nothing in our history that is opposed to being serious. We used to be.

It was the 1960's that broke the back of our national identity. Where there was promise for African Americans to be fully integrated into our national life, we took the wrong direction. Where there was promise to deliver a serious reverse to international Communism in the early 1970's, we let them grow.

It is not too late even now to bring back common sense, personal dignity and gravitas, and serious engagement with the business of life.

But we have ignorant clowns all around us who mistake pastels for black and white, and who insist on merging them into a dull gray, from which nothing but enervating apathy, and rote conformitarianism can grow.

It's like the whole nation is on laughing gas. I can pardon the "man on the street", but I cannot pardon the intellectuals who have very carefully led us to this state.

The end game is absolute power for the State, but even then general misery ensues, for all but a few, and arguably even for those few. Everyone loses, nobody wins.
You make clear demands that material be mastered in order to graduate from high school. I took classes in German (literature), English, and Spanish. We learned about the Pre-Socratics, and the history of psychology (that may have been an elective).

Bottom line, though, is no slackers made it through. There were no interruptions from learning, and the tone in general was serious and mature.

I had some cut and pastes in there. Just ignore the last two paragraphs.

Barry,

You might be hard pressed to think of any single policy that is more authoritarian than administering a test to an 11 year old child and relying on the result of that test to vastly limit the range of options that child has for pursuing happiness in her own life.

That idea is as illiberal as your proposal that people who earn more than %50 of their income from government handouts (wages? contracts? monopolies?) should not be permitted to vote.

Prole,

Do you think, perhaps, your first sentence at #120 was a little bit an overstatement?

And, it occurred to me that given your style "Prole" is short for "Prolix", or "Prolepsis".

Prole,

Are you saying that, absent such a test, all the people who eventually become plumbers might have become rocket scientists?

Half of the people you know are below average. This is, of course, politically inconvenient--since we are all supposed to be "equal", and only illiberal market and political forces prevent this--but the simple fact is some people are smarter than others. Some work harder. Some are luckier.

The whole thrust of leftism is to pretend there are no intrinsic differences between people, but the simple fact of the matter is that there are.

Moreover, as in the case of education, the bias that "social forces" are at work in some nefarious way prevents the clear eyed realization that the Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demands--here, learning--applies to all ethnic groups.

Unlike Democrats, I don't believe that African Americans are intrinsically inferior in any way to Caucasians and Asians. So why do we act as if "racism"--which is a descriptive term for patterns of behavior, and not a contagious disease which permanently cripples people--prevents us from demanding vastly better results from our inner cities?

Reality is, Democratic policies destroyed the nuclear family, they limit the power of police and teachers in enforcing order, and they are ultimately to blame for the chaos that prevents good kids from learning.

And for the record, I like my idea about restricting the right to vote to people who actually put money into the pot. If you haven't contributed anything, why should you be able to vote on what you are entitled to? This gets directly at that quote we see on here often about how democracies only last until the People realize they can vote themselves raises from the public pot.

Mixed response to Barry and Prole:

"Something like what they do overseas might be useful here. They administer a test roughly in the 5th grade, that determines what educational track you follow."

Being part of a streamlining system similar to what you have outlined, I have to concur that such a system is useful - but, I think it wrong to say that the result of a test should *determine* your educational track. To expand, there are two basic types of educational track - academic and vocational; the academic sector (at least) can have both selective and non-selective schools. A certain score on the test would be required to gain entry into a selective school - however, if this score is not reached, but the child wishes to follow an academic route, then I can only see that it is right to allow provision for that. Here, we now have choice, i.e. non-determinism. The test results would be used to advise a child's path; many would choose a vocational route anyhow. Thus, people are neither forced into doing something that they do not want to do, nor, with a system that separates the good and the bad, end up being dragged back to conform to the standards of others.

"You might be hard pressed to think of any single policy that is more authoritarian than administering a test to an 11 year old child and relying on the result of that test to vastly limit the range of options that child has for pursuing happiness in her own life."

Given what I outlined above, would that cause the test to be authoritarian and vastly limit options?

I find it interesting that you talk of the under-achievement of ethnic minorities in inner-city schools. In Britain, it is now well-established that ethnic minorities tend to do better (in some cases, a /lot/ better) than whites, under the same disadvantageous circumstances. There appears to me to be one clear common denominator - they work hard, because they did not set up shop in this nation with the hope of freebies, but rather with the conviction to achieve something for themselves. Even if my interpretation is wrong, the statistics themselves show beyond reasonable doubt that "Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demands--here, learning--applies to all ethnic groups." Given this, it is in no way wrong to suggest that people can - and should - do better.

"Reality is, Democratic policies destroyed the nuclear family, they limit the power of police and teachers in enforcing order, and they are ultimately to blame for the chaos that prevents good kids from learning."

Really? Policies destroyed the nuclear family? Dare I venture that the policies simply gave a way for people to destroy their own families? If the same policies had been in place, but people had made different choices - which they quite conceivably could have done - the concept of nuclear family would not be in supposed disarray. So, it would appear to me that it is People, not Policies that have done the damage. Your anger at the Democrats seems to me to be misguided anger at human nature.

Your Democrat and your Leftist are charactures of straw men. I'll deal only with your straw man comments directed at me.

You wrote: "Are you saying that, absent such a test, all the people who eventually become plumbers might have become rocket scientists?"

No Barry, I'm saying, that many people who would be streamed into non-academic programs at age 11, might, if they had continued on (perhaps struggling) in academic programs, have eventually become middle-manager, clerks, authors, etc. Perhaps we disagree on the age. 11 seems to early to me. It seems to limit too serverly the opportunity of children, teenagers, young adults to overcome the parents (or lack of parents) they've inherited.

Darije,

Are you in the UK? I went to school for a while in the UK. My concern would be that there should be great flexibility within and mobility between streams. In Ontario, students can elect to go "general" (non-university stream) or "advanced" (university stream) or "basic" (I don't know what this is), but this occurs usually around age 14-15. I would like to think that if a student had a good year (or semster), or showed increased desire and diligence, that she could "move up". I fear, however, that once the student is out of the academic stream, the gap steadily increases.

The "authoritarian" aspect of the testing would if it is once and for all. I'm a big believer in self-creation (yes I am Barry - though I understand that the capacity for self-creation floats on a sliding scale with the possibilities offered by context). I would like our student to have more than 6 or 7 years of schooling in which to create herself, her facility with language, her verbal reasoning etc.

Prole,

I see your point now; I think that, actually, we occupy similar ground. I hadn't thought about it, but, on reflection, it does seem right to allow "stream mobility" - enough people that I know have gone from being ignorant and dismissive to being diligent and determined to warrant that, imo. My concern is that a system that is flexible could easily be made into a homogeneous, undiscriminating mass, where everyone receives the same unfocussed and sub-par education in the name of eventually being able to achieve whatever they want to. If somebody changes, there must to be a process in place to show that they deserve/have the ability to switch streams - it is not an automatic entitlement by virtue of choice. We are free to choose our paths, but we must do the work to go down them.

On a related note, the various streams must be clear and distinct from each other, each focussing on a different end-goal - whether it be apprenticeship, university education, or work placement (but that's not to say there shouldn't be any overlap or any core curriculum) - otherwise, the entire concept necessarily descends into that homogeneous mass.