September 17, 2008

Wednesday 080917

Rest Day


Enlarge image

Urban Shield: CrossFit One World - Union City PD, Newark PD, Alameda County Sheriff's Office, and San Leandro PD

CrossFit Level 2 Certification, Visual Perspicacity by Nicole Carroll video [wmv] [mov]

"5 Dangerous Things You Should Let Your Children Do", Gever Tulley - TED

Post thoughts to comments.

Posted by lauren at September 17, 2008 4:05 PM

Hurray! \o/

I desperately needed a rest day.

Comment #1 - Posted by: JP_Denver at September 16, 2008 6:20 PM

Great Picture. Had to check and make sure it wasnt Newark NJ PD she worked for.

Comment #2 - Posted by: Steven@CrossFitAffliction at September 16, 2008 6:24 PM

Tomorrow's WOD: 100 javelin throws for time!

Comment #3 - Posted by: David at September 16, 2008 6:28 PM

Great video Nicole.

Comment #4 - Posted by: Jason Ackerman - Albany CrossFit at September 16, 2008 6:31 PM

I'm just getting started with crossfit and the zone. I went to the zone website and put in my measurements and it says I need 21 zone blocks per day. I have a lot of fat to loose, but that seems like a lot of food, does anyone have any input?

Comment #5 - Posted by: Bryan at September 16, 2008 6:36 PM

Great article! Much better to teach children sound decision making rather than teach them that someone else will make their decisions for them.

Comment #6 - Posted by: Nikolas Chapapas at September 16, 2008 6:37 PM

You know, I was just about to sit down to think about Rest Day when Li'l Bingo came running into the computer room. Seems he was using his Buck knife to hot wire a car in our driveway, you know, to take a spin, when he apparently touched the wrong wire after his buddy threw his Ipod out the window, and set the car on fire.

I'll have to get back to you guys in a little bit. What exactly are those five things that guy wants to talk about anyway?

Comment #7 - Posted by: bingo at September 16, 2008 6:45 PM

Loved this article. It is especially great for those of us who have young boys running around the house. Our nation is raising a generation of sissies and pansies because of some of these stupid laws. As parents, we need to take the time to teach our children some common sense and how to be truly safe. Like he said, they're young and they heal quickly. Seriously, I turn around at the gym and quite often find my 6 yo at the top of the climbing rope. If the mats are down, fine. If not he gets off until they are. We live in the country. Go explore, just let me know. This is a knife, here's how it's used. Common sense that isn't so common is what we need to teach our children. This will bring respect and responsibility along with it. You may want to check out "The Dangerous Book for Boys". It's a great read.

Comment #8 - Posted by: momo at September 16, 2008 6:57 PM

As the dad of 2 young boys (4 & 2) this article really makes alot of sense to me. I really believe what he was saying is right although I haven't been teaching my kids that so far. They might be a little young for some of those things, buts its the attitude of letting them learn that is so important.

I forwarded the link to my wife. Yet again this website goes so far beyond great fitness advice...and yet again to state the obvious...its all free. Amazing.

Comment #9 - Posted by: AaronWilson at September 16, 2008 6:58 PM is an incredible resource.... haven't looked at it in months, but now I know how I'm going to kill some time tomorrow.

Thanks, Coach.

Comment #10 - Posted by: Zach Davis at September 16, 2008 6:59 PM

I'd have to add one more to Ted's list:


I have safely taught my 7 and 5 yo daughters to shoot a 22 pistol and rifle as well as a 410, supervised with eye and ear protection. They LOVE it, it teaches them gun safety, begins the process of self-protection, and gives Daddy some reassurance that, well, I may not have to go to College with them one day!

Anyway, I like that guys concept.

Comment #11 - Posted by: Jay M. in SC at September 16, 2008 6:59 PM

#9 Bingo, your post is a hoot as always.

I have to agree with pretty much everything Ted had to say. Looking back on my childhood I really think my mum tried to shelter me from lots of potential sources of harm (ie I was never encouraged to join any sorts of sports teams). Once I'm an adult though I joined the CF as an engineer and started playing with explosives and going to Kandahar. So her plan backfired. Part of what gave me the confidence to do that sort of thing was "playing" with dangerous things like fire in scouts where my mum was no where around.
So I have to agree that "playing" with these dangerous things is an excellent idea for anyone's development. Fire is a great tool/toy, so long as its controlled and doesn't burn the forest down. So let the kids at the white gas, but not the petrol and tell them to "keep the fire in the fire" and everything is good.
Knifes are another great tool and the pain you get from using them improperly is a great teacher and as stated, kids heal fast, so let them hurt themselves now when there is less change of injuries being permanent.
Not sure how easy it would be to throw a spear, but I'd bet that throwing a ball, or playing a sport where you have to hit fast moving objects would do just as well.
Deconstructing appliances is simply good fun, just make sure if you're taking apart the microwave that you grab hold of the emitter, otherwise there's a risk they'll cook the whole house. Otherwise appliances are the greatest puzzles one can play with.
Breaking the law in small ways could be a slippery slope (you don't want to get into the "do what I say not what I do" argument) but I agree that if properly done will help kids to exercise judgement.
So yeah, take the bubble wrap off the kids and let them take some risks. Just be sure that the worst that will happen is some pain, but nothing that will cause permanent damage.

PS: I’m not a parent, but I am a scout leader so take what I say with however big a grain of salt as seems appropriate.

Comment #12 - Posted by: KCN at September 16, 2008 7:07 PM

I'm ahead of the curve. My kids 5,7,9 all have pocket knives. They also have a Henry Lever Action 22. The 7 and 9 year old are dead on shots. All 3 have killed a pig for butcher and help do the butchering. The older two can drive a truck, a tractor, a combine, a 4-wheeler you name it. My kids put wood in the woodburning stove in the winter. Kids can do a lot, it teaches them responsibility. I can't stand parents that shelter thier kids. It makes the kids booger eaters. I'm sure I'll hear the dangers of kids with guns. To that I say Gun Control = sight alignment + sight picture + trigger control.

Comment #13 - Posted by: Pick at September 16, 2008 7:08 PM

Part of the TED presentation reminded me of part of one of the late George Carlin's standups where he complains children are too soft (about 2 min in the video). RIP George.

Comment #14 - Posted by: M@ at September 16, 2008 7:13 PM

#13 Jay M. and #15 Pick

Wow, no wonder we've had so many school shootings. I'm all for teaching kids to be responsible and safe with some common everyday perils, but don't we have enough problems with guns already without encouraging more gun use? I think it should be illegal to allow kids to use guns.

Comment #15 - Posted by: bkm at September 16, 2008 7:17 PM

"We're rapidly breeding and raising a society of weaklings."

Couldn't be any closer to the truth.

Comment #16 - Posted by: Steve Liberati at September 16, 2008 7:20 PM

I think the main idea is to teach RESPONSIBILITY to the kids. It doesn't matter what tools you use.

School shooting aren't about who can use a gun or not, it's who decides to conduct malicious acts. Big difference that some, i.e. Comment #17 bkm, cannot grasp and distinguish.

Comment #17 - Posted by: Herm @ CF Los Altos, CA at September 16, 2008 7:25 PM

bkm your an idiot

That was the biggest stretch someone could have possibly made. Being taught the responsible use of firearms as a kid in no way turns them into killers. Get a life.

Comment #18 - Posted by: Austin McLean - 25 yom - 162 at September 16, 2008 7:27 PM

There is a reason that he doesn't have kids.

Comment #19 - Posted by: jake R 16/5'11''/153 at September 16, 2008 7:28 PM

seriously, i'm getting tired of seeing freddy's mug on the main page. ;-) j/k you rock bro, keep doing what your doing.

Comment #20 - Posted by: nadia shatila at September 16, 2008 7:30 PM

#19 Herm

I understand the problem well. It would be hard to imagine Columbine with a damn spear or slingshot now wouldn't it! Fire and cars are normal experiences of a kids life that they should learn to be responsible with. Kids can go there entire childhood without seeing a gun, IF their parents are responsible!!

Comment #21 - Posted by: bkm at September 16, 2008 7:31 PM

#13 bkm

If guns kill people, my pencil spells wrong words.

It's the character of the person that causes them to murder, not the gun. As far as I know guns do not control the person.

And before you say all those scary dangerous guns should be taken away from everyone. Remember the only way to secure our rights under the first admendment is to have the second amendment.

A gun is one of the only great equalizer. It will allow an 80 year old feable lady to defend herself against a 20 year old male attacked, and 911 does not. We have a right to be safe, it is our responsibilty to insure our own safty not to turn that responsibility over to another authority. I'm a police officer believe me we rarely make it to a crime while it is still occuring, we pick up the pieces and do the report.
Learn to protect yourself and teach your kids to protect themselves. There is a great crossfit journal article on the kid crossfit main page.

Comment #22 - Posted by: Pick at September 16, 2008 7:38 PM

How does everyone feel about the U.S. going bankrupt?

Comment #23 - Posted by: HAARP at September 16, 2008 7:40 PM

Why does every crossfit pic always have a couple clowns making psudeo-gang signs? Am i missing something?

Comment #24 - Posted by: spence at September 16, 2008 7:41 PM

I'm going to teach my 8 year old to throw a spear this weekend.

Great article.

Comment #25 - Posted by: Playoff Beard at September 16, 2008 7:48 PM

Urban shield 2008, I was there baby! Although I didn't have the nerve to come up and talk to the popular crossfitters in the photo. Great time, Great training. I wanted to see if any of them were down for a WOD after the 48 + hours but apparently not many visit the competitions forum.

Stan. Co S/o

Comment #26 - Posted by: Aaron Costello at September 16, 2008 7:49 PM


Didn't mean to upset you but I can't imagine life without guns, I mean I've personally used them since I was 4, and now practice concealed carry. My daughters will learn safe and controlled use of handguns and will use them if necessary to save their lives or the lives of the innocent and vulnerable. I strongly support teaching kids these concepts with parental or adult supervision of course. If you don't like this philosophy, I hear Canada or Australia may suit your fancy a little better. BTW, I'm in SC where we LOVE our guns, our religion, and our freedom, so you might not want to move here. LOL

Comment #27 - Posted by: Jay M. in SC at September 16, 2008 7:52 PM

#13 Jay

About the latch/connector at one end of the rope you got from Perform Better: Can you cinch the rope (i.e. around itself) after you've placed the rope over a bar or tree limb?


Comment #28 - Posted by: Ronnieboy at September 16, 2008 7:59 PM

While listening to the video I just had to pull out my Kabar and ram it point first into my desktop. Went in about a quarter of an inch. Didn't hurt the Kabar but my desktop won't be the same. Impressed my wife. Give a kid a Kabar.

Comment #29 - Posted by: MikeC1 at September 16, 2008 7:59 PM

to comment #29 Jay M. in SC...

where abouts are you in SC? I'm in Greenville and we got about 47,562 churches and not one Crossfit...

Comment #30 - Posted by: pelch at September 16, 2008 8:03 PM


I'm about 45 min from you now and moving closer to Ft. Inn. And you do have a Crossfit, CrossFit Alliance is a new affiliate, with 2 great guys running it, Ben Sims and Billy Fletcher. They are listed on the affiliates page, you should definitely go hit a wod with them. I do the garage gym thing with the wife, kids, and several LE buddies. My wife is harassing me because I'm designing my new house now and, well, the area for the CrossFit gym has garnered a lot of attention. That's normal, right?

Comment #31 - Posted by: Jay M. in SC at September 16, 2008 8:14 PM

Bingo, you are funny.

Let me add to the list: take them tree skiing.

Kids love this. Sure they could ski into a tree, but it's magical. When my kids discovered it, they didn't want to ski anywhere else on the mountain, so I had to learn, too.

Comment #32 - Posted by: blades at September 16, 2008 8:18 PM

Maybe Little Bingo needs a trip to Ramona.

Comment #33 - Posted by: Jeff at September 16, 2008 8:19 PM

I love this site. I love Crossfit. I love the mentality.

Here is a group of people who believe the following:

1. Work hard. Or don't. But get what you work for.
2. If you make a mistake, you own it. Get over it and try not to do it again. In essence, stop whining. (although, it's sometimes inevitable when doing, say, a "Murph")

Having seen the TED video, I have to laugh... here is yet another reason to love the site and its creators. I feel EXACTLY the same way. My Dad had a drill in my hand before I was a first grader. I drove the family car on his lap before I left grammar school (in a parking lot... he wasn't crazy). I've ALWAYS had a pocket knife - and carry one to this day, every day. I owned a BB gun, played with fireworks, gasoline, and small engines. I still have all my appendages and no scars save one knee surgery that had nothing to do with my misadventures!

My house was never ridiculously baby proofed. Both my kids fell down the stairs once or twice. They learned. They bounced. They've never tried to swim in the toilet, drink bleach, stick forks into the power outlets, or dye the dogs colors. (A blue Bichon is hilarious - my wife disagrees)

We teach our kids about pinch points, electricity, fire (there's no guard around the wood stove... they know it's hot), and just about anything else that's dangerous. We don't try and shield them from everything that's out there - the best and most lasting lesson is to teach them to think - cause and effect.

There's a balance... we lock up our guns. I don't think they're ready yet - but when the time comes, I sure want them finding out about firearms with me than over at a friend's house. They need to see the power and understand you can't take it back.

Anyway - off the soap box. Thank God for a dose of common sense. Hopefully the movement will spread. This acolyte is doing his part...

Comment #34 - Posted by: Mike C. at September 16, 2008 8:22 PM


The Perform Better climbing rope has a metal end with a ring. It would require a chain, rope, cable, or small crossbar to hang. The ring is not big enough for the rope to fit through to cinch itself down. But really $129 was significantly less than what I found elsewhere. And to keep it pertinent to the rest day topic, my little girls will definitely be climbing the rope, haha. Hope that helps.

Comment #35 - Posted by: Jay M. in SC at September 16, 2008 8:24 PM

Hey #26 Spence...
Yup, you're missing something.
It means One World...we're proud of being a part of our gym. You would be too.

Comment #36 - Posted by: lara at September 16, 2008 8:32 PM

Jay M. and Pick

You guys obviously have strong opinions about this, and have the "right" to teach your kids what you want. I should have known better to voice my opinion about firearms on a site full of LE and Military. And Jay M, don't worry I definitely don't plan on moving "Down South" anytime soon, since 2 out of 3 of those things really turn me off! Hopefully my boy Obama can change some of this "gun totin" in America.

Comment #37 - Posted by: bkm at September 16, 2008 8:33 PM

I think that Nicole is damn sexy!!! : )

Comment #38 - Posted by: Ted at September 16, 2008 8:34 PM

SPENCE they're from crossfit 1 world, 1 finger one fist, 1 ball, one world, didn't see any bloody latin crowns in that image.

Comment #39 - Posted by: joshua at September 16, 2008 8:35 PM

Any video with Nicole in it is a Damn Good Video!!!

Comment #40 - Posted by: RT / FTW-TX at September 16, 2008 8:42 PM

Quick thing I wanted to throw out there:

I'm a pretty athletic guy. How bad would it be to do a girl workout a couple hours after giving blood? Or even just hitting the bench and not doing an intense cardio workout?


Comment #41 - Posted by: Brad at September 16, 2008 8:43 PM

bkm: I don't mind your perspective one bit. Keep your kids away from guns if you prefer. Others can let their kids learn to use guns. Its each parent's prerogative.

And that TED discussion was great, except for one thing.....

Its predicated upon a supposition that most parents are fit to raise children and will appropriately guide and supervise their kids.

Unfortunately, most parents just don't care enough to execute those 5 things the right way....If they did, we would be a smarter, fitter, and better nation.

Comment #42 - Posted by: MorganL at September 16, 2008 8:46 PM

#29 Jay - do you even know where Australia is?

Comment #43 - Posted by: Gibbo at September 16, 2008 8:49 PM

I agree that kids should be allowed to trial and error things. Having SOME limitations is important. Whether a child learns to use a gun safely or not, accidents do happen. Sure, maybe 1 in a million kids that have access to a gun shoot themself or another, BUT WHY NOT ELIMINATE THE RISK ALTOGETHER?! Learning about safety and risks is good, but no kid should ever be that one in a million. I'm not talking about murders and schools shootings, but accidents do happen: people trip, hands slip, kids forget.

I love the TED talks. As an aside, my favourite speech is by Bjorn Lumborg on alternative things the world could be doing instead of spending massive amounts of money to have very little affect on climate change. (eg basic immunizations, access to clean water, etc)

Comment #44 - Posted by: Matt_in_Oz at September 16, 2008 8:50 PM

#24 Pick

You said "A gun is one of the only great equalizer."

I support gun rights and nearly unfettered ownership of guns.

But believing what you said makes people into pawns.

I subscribe more to "the pen is mightier than the sword."

After all, how many people do you think some of our favorite political monsters actually gunned down in the street? Hitler? Stalin? Mao? Saddam? George?

Comment #45 - Posted by: MorganL at September 16, 2008 8:56 PM

that article was awesome. I totally called the play with fire one. I bet shooting a gun is going to be in the book.

I talk about that kind of stuff with my fiance about our future kids. I was lucky to hae parents that gave me a pocket knife, let me play with fire in the back yard (on a brick path away from brush of course) and shoot a gun. Kids need to learn how to handle such things and control them.

again...awesome article

Comment #46 - Posted by: PE n SD m/21/6'4/208 at September 16, 2008 9:07 PM

Well, I saw this video a while back and I strongly agree with it. The world is a dangerous place, and the only way to come to terms with danger is to experience it in small doses, under controlled or semi-controlled circumstances.

When I was growing up, I had a pocket knife, played with fire, spent time in the wilderness alone (well, with my dog), used guns, wrestled with my friends, and so on. These experiences taught me some very important lessons, and I wouldn't be the man I am today without them. One of my fondest memories is making improvised bows and arrows with my friends and shooting into a field.

At the same time, I understand how people would disagree with this idea. I mean, all of us here that grew up shooting and blowing things up are success stories. All kids do stupid things, and I don't think I'm making a wild conjecture in assuming that all of us here are alive and well only because we got lucky a few times when we did something really dumb. We have learned from our mistakes, and grown from them. Some kids aren't so lucky. Obviously, it's tragic that accidents happen, especially when we're talking about kids. Having worked on an ambulance for a few years, I've witnessed many incidents where kids were exploring the world in various ways and were seriously wounded or killed from it. I wouldn't want my kids to succumb to a similar fate, so I can understand why some people want to shelter their kids and try to protect them from all harm. At the same time, that fear and protective instinct has to be balanced by the knowledge that over-protection sets a child up to be a victim later in life.

In the end, there has to be a balance. Jay says that kids should play with guns, and I agree, but that play has to be within certain limits. I don't think his statement meant to give a toddler a loaded .45 and turn your back. Like Mr. Tulley was saying about knives, there has to be rules, always cut away from your body, etc.

As for school shootings, maybe we wouldn't have so many instances of violence if we
1) acknowledged that violence is part of the human condition and allowed productive, positive outlets for it and
2) educated people about weaponry, defense and discipline.

Off topic:
Jay, did you see that the Church of England offered an apology to Charles Darwin for "misunderstanding" him? Interesting.

Comment #47 - Posted by: Nick Wise at September 16, 2008 9:08 PM


Your beliefs scare me, because I know there are a lot of sheep out there with your same beliefs. It will not change until you are confronted by a wolf and there is no sheep dog around to protect you or what's important to you. If you don't get the metaphor: sheep are helpless and defenseless, they are left in the field to be eaten by the wolf unless there is a sheep dog to protect them.

If you ever want to be scared read the books "On Killing" and "On Combat" by David Grossman and you may learn a little of how I think.

The day the government trys to take all the guns away is the day the people will take the government back. I would hope people have learned from the past and what happened when Hitler took away the guns. Taking away the right to bare arms is the first step in loosing all of our rights. Thank God for now the supreme court has been making sound decisions such as finding the DC Gun Ban unconstitutional.

As far as keeping my guns locked up. What good are they if they are locked up and unloaded. I keep my BANJO in the gun safe, the kids kept playing with it, getting it out of tune. OK I made that up.

Comment #48 - Posted by: Pick at September 16, 2008 9:15 PM

#26- Spence

The story is simple: we love our gym. Our little One World sign is no different than wearing a t-shirt with One World printed on the front. We are the complete opposite of a gang. Our name says it all: It's ONE WORLD. All of us are living in it, and everyone is equal. :-)

Great job to all the One World athletes that competed in Urban Shield. 23 tactical scenarios in 48 hours spread out over the entire SF bay area plus a 13.3 mile hike in the hills. Brutal! I doubt a single operator got more than 2 hours sleep through the entire event. Congrats to Alameda County Sheriff's Office for the fourth place finish.

Comment #49 - Posted by: freddy c._one world at September 16, 2008 9:25 PM

As a parent, I can't express just how happy I was to watch Gerver's TED video, and to read the comments on this board. Knowing there are people I agree with on issues like raising kids gives me the warm-and-fuzzies.

Sometimes I get terribly confused in today's world. (Usually, it's when I'm prevented from opening the bathroom door in the middle of the night by one of the many child-safety-nonsense gizmos we have around the house now).

Again, great article.

Comment #50 - Posted by: Antun Karlovac at September 16, 2008 9:26 PM

loved the 5 dangerous things you should let your kids do.

Comment #51 - Posted by: eva t. at September 16, 2008 9:31 PM

48 Pick

Your beliefs scare me.

Taking away the right to bare arms is not the same as losing all rights. It's ignorant to think otherwise.

Going back to your sheep/wolf analogy: ALL THE SHEEP DONT NEED TO DEFEND THEMSELF! Just one sheep dog in the herd. Society's sheepdogs are the police, army, and various other forms of LE. The general public does not need weapons.

(Also, commenting on Hitler's atrocities in that context is rude, and entirely different.)

Comment #52 - Posted by: Matt_in_Oz at September 16, 2008 9:36 PM

Awesome video about the 5 dangerous things.

As I said to my wife when my son was very small. She caught me tossing him up into the air and catching him (gently). He was loving it.

She gave me a hard time. I said "Your job is to protect him. Mine is to give him new experiences."

She drew the line when she caught me trying to combine a kettlebell handle with a baby Bjorn, though.

New workout:
"Pukie's baby:"
50 baby snatches for time, both arms

Comment #53 - Posted by: JaHo at September 16, 2008 9:41 PM

(Also, commenting on Hitler's atrocities in that context is rude, and entirely different.)

I dunno. Commenting on Hitler's place in history and the mechanisms he used to meet his ends isn't really rude.

I'd listen if you could tell me why it is.

Comment #54 - Posted by: MorganL at September 16, 2008 9:42 PM

I usually only post things to the blog that are tongue-in-cheek, but today's seems to be quickly becoming a guns/no guns forum...

I think a good point for folks to take away from this, regardless of their stance on any particular aspect is:
It is far safer (and less expensive for the parents) to coach your kids how to safely handle dangerous things, than to let them discover it on their own.
Like a lot of folks on this blog, I would expand the list to include other tempting and dangerous things. Of course, if I had guns in my home, or knew that my children would be directly exposed to guns somehow, I would definitely teach my children about gun safety and proper handling too.

Much better to be familiar and confident with a dangerous implement than unfamiliar and curious.

Comment #55 - Posted by: Jim Broun at September 16, 2008 9:45 PM

#45 Morgan L

you got out of: "A gun is one of the only great equalizer." That I support the gunning down of people in the street and support political monsters. Just the opposite I support people having the right and being able to defend themselves.

I see who you listed as political monsters: Hitler? Stalin? Mao? Saddam? George? Seriously George, I gather you are referring to George W Bush as a political monster. Does this mean you think our soldiers are murders? Since they are carring out what his pen decrees. Wow. I would hope not. Our soldiers are the wonderful, beautiful people that have defended our country, our way of life and ability to rant at each other freely.

Comment #56 - Posted by: Pick at September 16, 2008 9:50 PM

I think Morgan was talking about this George:

Comment #57 - Posted by: Jim Broun at September 16, 2008 10:02 PM

Oh, Thank God!

Comment #58 - Posted by: Ray at September 16, 2008 10:04 PM

#56 Pick:

If you want to email me for an explanation of what my post said, the link's on my name.

Otherwise, it would be classless for me to publicly dress-down your ignorant and reactionary interpretation of my post.

You've invented words and attributed them to me, and I didn't do that to you.

This is why I rarely play along on this board and spend more energy in the gym.

But hey buddy, you be indignant and impugn others' patriotism. I'm sure it works for you.
For anyone that cares, here's the post in question along with the response.

#24 Pick

You said "A gun is one of the only great equalizer."

I support gun rights and nearly unfettered ownership of guns.

But believing what you said makes people into pawns.

I subscribe more to "the pen is mightier than the sword."

After all, how many people do you think some of our favorite political monsters actually gunned down in the street? Hitler? Stalin? Mao? Saddam? George?
Comment #45 - Posted by: MorganL at September 16, 2008 8:56 PM
#45 Morgan L

you got out of: "A gun is one of the only great equalizer." That I support the gunning down of people in the street and support political monsters. Just the opposite I support people having the right and being able to defend themselves.

I see who you listed as political monsters: Hitler? Stalin? Mao? Saddam? George? Seriously George, I gather you are referring to George W Bush as a political monster. Does this mean you think our soldiers are murders? Since they are carring out what his pen decrees. Wow. I would hope not. Our soldiers are the wonderful, beautiful people that have defended our country, our way of life and ability to rant at each other freely.

Comment #56 - Posted by: Pick at September 16, 2008 9:50 PM

Comment #59 - Posted by: MorganL at September 16, 2008 10:04 PM

54 MorganL

I'm not opposed to talking about his place in history or any of that. I felt the comment was out of place and unnecessary. The situation is different. Hitler slaughtered people with disabilities, gays, Gypsies and Jews. Germany was going through quite a rough patch post WWI (failing economy due to depression, war reparations, etc). He used propaganda and lies to convince a nation of people that needed change that the way to a better life was through the domination of the Aryan race. And that everyone else should be exterminated. Comparing THAT situation to losing ONE RIGHT is not the same. While I do recognize that right is a big one, and that there is the notion tha once we lose this right to the governemnt, the dominos will fall and we will lose all rights. I just don't think that will happen. People get to choose where to draw the line on issues one at a time.

Going hunting is one thing to use guns for, but coming home to find out your 7 year old shot his 4 year old because you left a loaded handgun beside the phonebook is unnecessary.

Comment #60 - Posted by: Matt_in_Oz at September 16, 2008 10:05 PM

Erwin Raphael McManus's 'The Barbarian Way'

I thaank it's worth reading if you beliveve in One greater than yourself.

I have 3 daugh·ters.I gave my first girl her baptismal blade { in August. she took on a new level of rea·son·abil·i·ty

It is small blue handle "lock back" she had to figure out how to unlock, clean, oil, and sharpen hers by watching me with mine. An un·for·get·ta·ble time of to·geth·er·ness :>

Comment #61 - Posted by: The one with the hat #1 DAD M/31/5'-9"/205 at September 16, 2008 10:07 PM

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks." --Thomas Jefferson's advice to his 15-year-old nephew, Peter Carr, 1785.

Comment #62 - Posted by: Steve N at September 16, 2008 10:09 PM

#52- Matt

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. I think it is irresponsible to always depend on others to take care of you. The LEO's can't be everwhere. At the very least, everyone should take responsibility for protecting their family and themselves. And by the way, I don't own a gun, but I did have a military friend show me how to handle and shoot one. That way, if I ever have a situation where I encounter one, I know what to do, and without fear of it. That seem the logical, responsible thing to do.

Comment #63 - Posted by: Andrea at September 16, 2008 10:13 PM

First time post here, friends...

I love the TED video and the response it has generated so far! I have two sons, ages 14 and 11, and my husband and I are all for teaching safety and common sense. What we don't believe in is safety at the expense of adventure, creativity, mental stimulation, physical development...... and joy.

I had to laugh while I watched the video. My boys own pocket knives, they have played with fire, run power tools, deconstructed appliances, thrown many objects, and since toddlerhood have practiced driving their grandfather's Ford Explorer in the Baja desert during our yearly visits to the family vacation home. (They are excellent drivers, by the way, and no longer scratch the paint of my dad's car while maneuvering past prickly desert plants on narrow sand roads.)

My boys were also climbing to the tops of trees and play structures in Santa Cruz's many neighborhood parks while other parents at the park shot me disapproving looks and told their children (who were begging to be allowed to climb) "That mommy over there is being very irresponsible."

Playgrounds all over California are trading in their tall swing sets and long metal slides for tamer, round-edged, (off-gassing) plastic play structures... all in the name of safety (and something else I don't dare mention for fear of opening another can of worms).

Got wax paper? Our town still has ONE public park with an old-school metal slide - and it's a blast!

Comment #64 - Posted by: RLD in Santa Cruz at September 16, 2008 10:14 PM

whew, good thing as a kid I broke the DMCA law many, many, many times, and still do today.

Comment #65 - Posted by: ShaneB at September 16, 2008 10:15 PM

I don't have kids but when I do I often worry about how I will instill in then all the wonderful redneck skills I learned as a kid on a cattle ranch. As far as guns go, my dad taught me gun safety as soon as possible so I would know better than to blow a hole in myself should I stumble across it. I think if you have guns in the house you should teach your kids about them asap. Then lock it up.

Comment #66 - Posted by: Rory Mac at September 16, 2008 10:20 PM

I agree with what Gever Tulley has said. My children slide down the stairs, balance on the bannisters, jump off of desks and "fly" onto the couch.

When my son turned 6 I got him his own tool box and simple hand tools; hammer, screwdrivers, pliers. we build projects together and I let him use some of the power tools. He uses them once and then decides he would rather use his hand tools. He has bashed his fingers accidently with the hammer. His aim with the hammer has now improved.

My 5 year old daughter doesn't know that bugs are scary so she catches the big, green, slow-flying fruit beetles with her bare hands. The beetle as it crawls in her cupped hands tickles her, she tells me.

Comment #67 - Posted by: el ingeniero at September 16, 2008 10:21 PM

Nicole, more Nicole--- I really, really need more training... where do I get the poster? I like it when you use those big words...

Comment #68 - Posted by: nan at September 16, 2008 10:41 PM

I didn't realize until today how well my parents raised me. My dad taught me about fire and I can build some good blazes depending on what your purpose is. He taught me to use a knife and other tools early on. He even taught me how to shoot a bow when I was 5 (sorry, we never have owned any guns though I have shot with friends later in life).

What did I get out of it? I learned all of these tools are double-edged in ways and require use of your brain to keep things safe. Fire can warm you and cook your food, but can also burn you or burn down your house (I've almost burned down a few houses in my life and learned valuable lessons in each incident). Knives have dozens of uses but can also hurt you... etc and so on down the line of tools. And guns are tools too. Learn to use a tool rightly and you minimize the risk of accidentally hurting someone while using the tool. Now if your intent is to hurt someone, only difference in what you use is effectiveness.

One thing I would add to the list:
Grow something. Doesn't matter what, just learn how plants grow and what it takes to keep them alive. Especially if the kid lives in the city.

Comment #69 - Posted by: TripMN at September 16, 2008 10:42 PM

Awesome vid. I've been arguing with my left wing liberal mom for years about letting kids be kids. I vowed to my wife that our boys, 2 and 2 weeks, won't ride bikes with helmets. I never did. Everyday there are more and more regulations on how to protect kids. How about this, forget the garbage bag safety, that's what Darwin's for, and let us focus on keeping child predators off the streets so the kids can go out and play and not have to worry about the stranger on the corner with candy or a puppy.

Comment #70 - Posted by: Schwartzie 31/M/5-10/260 at September 16, 2008 10:50 PM

bkm, I have to agree with post #18 by Austin. I am an Obama supporting liberal living in San Francisco, but I see no reason a kid can't learn to responsibly use a gun. My dad took me hunting when I was 10 and taught me how to safely use a gun. I wouldn't make too many assumptions about politics or geography.

Comment #71 - Posted by: spidermonkey at September 16, 2008 11:01 PM

I have to jump in here.

It is a fact, indisputable, that a gun in the home is more likely to kill someone who lives there, by accident or on purpose, than an intruder or robber coming into the house.

The only thing ever proven to decrease suicide rates in this country is limiting access to weapons.

These are two reasons why I will never keep a gun in my house.

I have no problem with the second ammendment, as long as you read the whole thing, inculding the part that goes' a well organized militia'. A handgun in the house does not count as a militia.

I do agree with the premise of the article. Guns in the home are a different issue entirely.

Comment #72 - Posted by: Kevin at September 16, 2008 11:48 PM

I read a little over halfway through the comments and I just had an opion to say about the whole gun control thing that fired me up, so I don't know if someone else brought this up but I find it important. Here's the way I see it, I don't think those kids at Columbine grew up around guns at all. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but even if they grew up around guns, they weren't taught firearm responsibility. If kids grow up learning about firearms and learning the rules of firearm safetey (treat every weapon as if it were loaded, never point at anything you do not intend to shoot, keep your finger off the trigger until you intend to fire, and keep the safety on until you intend to fire) I honestly think we'd have less kids running around toting guns like it's about control. I like weapons as much as the next gun loving diggit, but I also respect them. I had never handled a weapon until boot camp, and then I went to security training where they taught proper handing of firearms. I wish my parents had taught me about it when I was a kid, and if I ever have kids I will teach them about guns right away. That way they won't somehow acquire a gun and think it's cool to go waving that thing around, pointing it at anyone because they think it's a toy.
In short, I completely agree that we should teach our children about firearms, if for nothing else, so that another Columbine doesn't happen because of ignorance. End of story.

Comment #73 - Posted by: Sailor Erin at September 16, 2008 11:53 PM


Calling someone and idiot doesn't really work when you start youR post with "youR and idiot"

sure it's only grammar but you'RE an english speaking person so you should pay more attention to what you'RE typing in youR posts.

Now, let me rebut with: no, #18, you're an idiot

Comment #74 - Posted by: Iraq_Alex at September 16, 2008 11:54 PM

I can't wait to get my Level 2.

and I hope Nicole is there. I suppose ill just really try to do it at One World, just like my level 1.

As for the video and what every one has been saying...

I think the main purpose of this is to expose our children to things eliminate curriousity that leads to injuries.

I am the 6th of 7 children. My parents sat me down and said,

"If we tell you not to do it, it is just going to be curious and do it anyways. So I will show you. And I will never judge you for asking me what "____" is about"

I fired Black powder Rifles with my Father at 7 years old and never once had a craving to go in his closet and steal it to take to school. Nor did i ever tell my friends. I have scars, broken bones, scrapes and bruises.. and was a very very rough kid.

I also ended up being the only child in my family to never touch a Drug, and the first to be a college Graduate. Now I am the most productive of the 7 he had.

Because he exposed me to things, he also exposed me to the respect he had for them. It passed on to me.

Not every kid is smart, but not every kid is dumb. Safety Regulations are generalizations.

Those who over protect their kids, might as well start them doing isometric exercises when they get in their teens... they are much "Safer" than Functional Motions because "There isnt as much risk"

I think there is a huge underlining here.

BTW. Fran time the other day. PR'd my last time was 7:32, monday was 5:44. Next time is in the 4's.

Comment #75 - Posted by: Johnny Di Gregorio at September 17, 2008 12:07 AM

I agree that we should show our children the things they should not do. It is our job to protect them, but how we do it makes the difference in the outcome. As a Marine Corps Senior Drill Instructor, I see the generation of young men come here who struggle with the understanding of following simple instructions, stuggle with simple adaptation and struggle with basic respect and disipline. These men are trained not just in the physical, but teh mental and spiritual of what we need to protect our way of life. It is my belief that the people who over protect thier children, try ot be friends instead of parents. This causes a problem in the development of our children. A parent first looks at what it is they want to teach, protect and develop from thier children. Then the way they go about it will decide the reception and self teaching needed for the child to accept what the parent is attempting to teach. It would be far easier to develope the parent as well, if some would really see that the very freedoms they have in our country have allowed certain parents in a sense to lose sight of important values and upbringings to survive the direction our world is taking us.

Comment #76 - Posted by: Cody Johnson at September 17, 2008 12:25 AM

Gun Deaths - International Comparisons
Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):

Homicide Suicide Other(inc Accident)

USA (2001) 3.98 5.92 0.36
Italy (1997) 0.81 1.1 0.07
Switz (1998) 0.50 5.8 0.10
Canada (2002) 0.4 2.0 0.04
Finland (2003) 0.35 4.45 0.10
Australia(2001)0.24 1.34 0.10
France (2001) 0.21 3.4 0.49
Engl/Wal(2002) 0.15 0.2 0.03
Scotland (2002)0.06 0.2 0.02
Japan (2002) 0.02 0.04 0

Data taken from Cukier and Sidel (2006) The Global Gun Epidemic. Praeger Security International. Westport.

I live in the UK, Guns are harder to come by and we are having increasing media coverage, unfortunatly it seems to be black on black gang crime. I agree with teaching kids to look after themselves as we dont want to be a world of wimps but ownership of guns is perhaps not the answer.

Comment #77 - Posted by: rick at September 17, 2008 12:53 AM

Watched the video. I enjoyed the premise of his speech though I found the delivery a little weak. I would add one comment to his presentation: Do these things with your kids. I have two very young kids, but I enjoy observing and participating in their exploration. I think I get more out of the experience than my kids do.

Mentor your kids and show them how to explore, be patient and be problem solvers. These traits are disappearing from society today.

Comment #78 - Posted by: Kevin at September 17, 2008 1:07 AM


First and foremost...anyone else notice that France has the highest rate of accidental gun deaths on that list? :-)

To the real stuff: ownership isn't the issue. Take Canada's stats for example, Canadian citizens are allowed to own all sorts of weapons (handguns included) once they have the proper licence - which require specific training courses (Wikipedia for more info), yet they have significantly less gun related incidents than many other countries. The issue is (again) proper training and respect for guns.

As for the argument that guns allow people to commit suicide, I don't buy it because then you'd have to ban most presciption drugs as well, and rope, and garages, I could go on and on. Ask anyone that's been a cop: take away people's guns, and they'll just find another way to kill themselves.

Matt_in_Oz, I'd like to see some data about gun accidents with children. How many of these kids were taught about guns in the home? I can't seem to find any data, everything seems to be conjecture - admittedly, on both sides. I agree that even one accident is too many, but guns are a fact of life in the US. It's better to educate our children, lest they find out the hard way from a friend.

Comment #79 - Posted by: Alex Europa at September 17, 2008 2:19 AM

Ya, lets take away everyones 2nd amendment! Ya communism!!! Ya Karl Marx!!! Ya Obama!!! WooHoo

Comment #80 - Posted by: Jeff_IN at September 17, 2008 3:24 AM

Although Gever Tulley is a poor speaker, I like what he has to say. I'm not sure what age he's recommending those things but my son has done most of them. Guess that means I'm not a hoover parent. Son's #1 fav is driving a car (while sitting in my lap of course). Been doing that since about 8.
I hate that this has turned into a rant about gun control.

Comment #81 - Posted by: Christin Street at September 17, 2008 3:30 AM

Re #79

Numbers don't lie; the number one method of completed suicide is always firearms.

People would find other ways to try, but there is no more successful way to commit suicide than with a gun.

After the first 5 pills, someone may have second thoughts and stop. They'll be fine. After the first cuts, someone may have second thoughts. They'll be fine. After the first trigger is pulled-they'll be dead.

Again, the only thing ever shown to decrease the suicide rate is limiting access to firearms.

I know whereof I speak-I'm a psychiatrist. I have no problem with private gun ownership in 'a well organized militia', for hunting, etc, but handguns in the home are inviting danger.

Children aren't allowed to drive for a while for a reason. Heck, they're not even allowed to vote until 18 because they are assumed to not have enough judgement to make appropriate decisions. And guns are different because.....??

Again, these are personal decisions, but the numbers are there to look at for anyone to see. I don't mean to be alarmist, but if you think 'That won't happen to my kid', I guarrantee you that's what everyone thinks, until it does happen.

Comment #82 - Posted by: Kevin at September 17, 2008 3:38 AM

That video was awesome!! Kids, just be kids!! Run, play, discover, get hurt, fall down and get the heck back up til next time!!

Comment #83 - Posted by: Sarena Kopciel at September 17, 2008 4:09 AM

Anyone else use a magnifying glass to learn about heat and fire (and killing ants)? God, that brings me back.

Kids who are allowed to play with fire and have an open fire in their homes are less likely to start smoking as teenagers. Less novelty for them. Ok, I just made that up, but I think it's true.

Great rest day article. Staying out of the gun control debate....have fun, guys!

Comment #84 - Posted by: J1 at September 17, 2008 4:38 AM

#82 Kevin:

I understand where you're coming from, and you're right about the success rate of suicide by gun. My opinion comes the perspective of someone that has seen quite a few suicides of every flavor, where as you've seen the ones that couldn't or didn't finish the job (thankfully). I chalk this up to a different opinion based on different experiences. :-)

As for numbers not lying, Japan has one of the the most stringent gun control systems in the world, yet it also has the one of the highest suicide rates in the world. I know we're way off topic at this point, but I still think it's a valid discussion. :-)

Comment #85 - Posted by: Alex Europa at September 17, 2008 4:39 AM

It seems that percentage wise, most people are leaning in a responsible and intelligent direction, on here. More are for realistic learning for their kids, not telling them something and leaving them to experiment on their own. I'll have to admit I was pretty incredulous at the things that bkm was typing and regardless of the grammar, think that 18 and 73 had good points. Many good thoughts (and from experience) from the others as well.

Now if I can only get my fitness motivation back.

Comment #86 - Posted by: DustyRgr76 at September 17, 2008 4:53 AM

what does the gang sign in the photo mean?

Comment #87 - Posted by: roden at September 17, 2008 5:01 AM

#88 roden, it's not a gang sign, it represents One (the finger) World (the fist), the name of their CrossFit affiliate. See post #49 by owner Freddie "I whine about Double Unders" Camacho. :-p

Comment #88 - Posted by: Alex Europa at September 17, 2008 5:13 AM

In regards to the "kids" video:

Check out this article as well.

Comment #89 - Posted by: Michael Weidner 34/5'11"/163 at September 17, 2008 5:17 AM

I'm so glad that I had older brothers and a dad that was wise/lenient enough to let me do all of these (assuming I can sub 'shooting a gun' for 'throwing a spear').

And #84 J1 - we had a 12" diameter lens that we used to burn ants...until we learned that we could burn entire trees with it too!

Comment #90 - Posted by: Elise at September 17, 2008 5:19 AM

I ordered a pair of gymnastic rings from and got them yesterday. I have not used them yet but I am going to try to do a muscle up this afternoon. Since I have under-estimated every workout and every new excercise I have seen on this website, I figure I am doing the same with muscle ups and will not be able to do one. What should I do to get myself ready for muscle ups? Steroids?

Comment #91 - Posted by: PatS at September 17, 2008 5:44 AM

We are raising a society of sissy ninny kids. I'm glad I was a Boy Scout, made fire, had a pocket knife, my dad took me to shoot guns and I took all sorts of stuff apart and couldn't put it back together. I'm going to let my kids break something this weekend, maybe burn something too! No kidding!

Comment #92 - Posted by: Bob in NoVA at September 17, 2008 5:45 AM

How would you go about scaling this?

Comment #93 - Posted by: BrianES at September 17, 2008 5:46 AM

Dave B's first Crossfit WOD. (Welcome to CrossFit Dave!)

1/2 Cindy (10:00) with 6 sets plus 5 plus 7.

Nice effort, good form, good job!

Comment #94 - Posted by: Mark & Theresa at September 17, 2008 5:59 AM

Mrs. Bingo and I had breakfast together this morning after she watched the video. I told her that my first image watching the video was of Mrs. Bingo taking out her (rather large) pocket knife of her youth and teaching the Bingo progeny how to play "mumble-dee-peg" when they were much younger than 10.

Beth's upbringing was much, much more free-wheeling and experimental than mine. Consequently our children have had many more experiences like those in the vid. We giggled this morning as we remembered the defunct VCR that "The Heir" deconstructed, pieces parts strewn all over the basement floor. And the horrified looks on the other kids parents' faces when we told them how much fun their kids had when they were using Beth's drills and power tools as they constructed all manner of stuff for Indian Guides. The little girl who told her Mom that she loved visiting Chez Bingo because Mrs. Bingo let her play in the mud (and got right in there with all of the kids).

But what really made Beth smile was the memory of my first "stream walk" at age 35, walking right in the middle of a stream in my old Chuck Taylors with the family, chasing minnows and running away from "killer frogs". To this day it still thrills to think that did that--I still feel like I broke some kind of rule and got away with it.

OK...bonfire at Li'l Bingo's house this weekend. Huge "mumble-dee-peg" tournament. Don't trip on the busted refrigerator on your way to the back...

Comment #95 - Posted by: bingo at September 17, 2008 6:00 AM

I'm so glad it's a rest day. I have to work 16 hours today.

Comment #96 - Posted by: Big D-Rock at September 17, 2008 6:05 AM

One in the hopper...

Comment #97 - Posted by: bingo at September 17, 2008 6:06 AM

Somehow this all seems very common sense to me. Perhaps it's because I was born before all of this safety legislation - I'll be 61 in October; but I have had a pocket knife in my pocket continuosly since I was five (exceptions recent airplane travel and federal buildings!) I learned to drive (a 10 speed - 1 ton truck) when I was 10. My ride to high school was in the bed of a pickup (seat belts weren't even invented then). The list goes on! But, it was very difficult to give my daughter many of the same experiences that I had. The she has never carried a pocket knife - you can get expelled from school for that. She did drive at an early age, but since we live in New Jersey she couldn't get a license till she was 18, six months before she left for college - not a lot of time for real practice! The pendulum has swung very far in the wrong direction and I fear it will never swing back.

Comment #98 - Posted by: Guy I at September 17, 2008 6:15 AM

#43 Gibbo

Funny guy! You know it HAS been awhile since I took geography, but don't assume ALL of us "Down South" resemble "The Deliverance". BTW how's that gun control thing workin' out for those "down under", as far as murder and violence? Yeah, that's what I thought.
I didn't mean to start a firestorm, I just think if my kids are going to see guns on me, on TV, movies, and possibly in someone elses home, the more educated they are on the proper handling, use, and dangers, the safer they would be. Besides, as a concealed carry proponent, I will encourage my little girls to carry as soon as they can.....ever notive how many young women disappear in America? A lot more than kids injured from an AD from a firearm! Ask any LEO what their opinion on responsible citizens with proper training carrying firearms, just makes their job easier.


Great points buddy. And yeah I heard about the Church of England, but hey, they've been off before. haha.

Comment #99 - Posted by: Jay M. in SC at September 17, 2008 6:22 AM

Had outfit PT this morning we did:
5 Rounds of:
10 pull-ups
10 knees-to-elbows
20 dips
Time: 9.12

-I made this one up when I broke my foot last year and it is a real upper body smoker. Originally it was with 10 ring dips, but I do not have enough rings for the entire outfit.

Comment #100 - Posted by: Drew Hinnant M/21/185 at September 17, 2008 6:27 AM

I have a question of my own today, I'm sure the answers will be a bit subjective and there is no hard in fact rule, but I kind of wanted to get people's feelings on how to prepare the week before a big athletic competition. I've been doing C-fit for close to 10 months now and have ran a few 10ks and half marathons simply for fun, however, next weekend I'm doing the Urbanathalon (8 miles including obstacle courses and a 50 story stair climb)and I would really like to bust out a good time. Any suggestions on prepertion this week? I'd like to be as refreshed and ready to go as possible. Should I just take it easy towards the end of next week on the WODs, or should I start scaling back sooner.
Much thanks.

Comment #101 - Posted by: Gurrero at September 17, 2008 6:29 AM

Have I mentioned lately that Nicole is the HOTTEST CF chic EVER!

call me baby :) lol

Comment #102 - Posted by: Leftridge at September 17, 2008 6:30 AM

#5 Bryan, Be honest with your activity level. If you only do the crossfit workouts or if you do them and can't finish or do them as Rx's for your weight, you shouldn't use an activity level above moderate. I don't know your stats, but I come in at 18 blocks at 11% bodyfat and moderate activity levels. If you're working out everyday,in addition to crossfit, an additional hour or more, Then you might join the ranks of "Active"
Of course if you weigh 300 lbs, you're going to be allowed more blocks to start.
Keep in mind that the types of food you eat on the Zone will allow more volume of food then you might be accustomed to. Don't worry you will lose weight as long as you don't starve your body of nutrients and you keep up the training intensity.
My advise? If after 2 weeks at 21 blocks, you haven't lost anything, (you'll still feel better) drop 2 blocks and go 2 more weeks training at the same intensity.
Everyone is different and your mileage may vary.
Good Luck, enjoy the kool-aid and train hard!

Comment #103 - Posted by: Sparky_33/M/5'5"/205 at September 17, 2008 6:32 AM

PatS - Funny! Watch the videos and concentrate on getting the transition down. Muscle-up are 10% muscle, 90% mindf@&k. Seriously, form is the key. Pull-ups to the chest and really deep dips help the strength part but if you can't hit the transition, MUs will own you!

Comment #104 - Posted by: Sparky_33/M/5'5"/205 at September 17, 2008 6:36 AM

Ahhh, brains and a CF physique. Why in the world are you guys talking about guns?

Comment #105 - Posted by: Mark at September 17, 2008 6:39 AM

#82 Kevin

Thanks for your clinical perspective, but I have a few questions for clarification. Are the rates of successful suicide with firearms higher because 1) more males choose firearms since they 2) are usually more serious about the endpoint than women, 3) choose more violent means to perpetrate the act. And obviously if I'm really not sure I want this to end, maybe I choose another means to my desired end, which may simply be a cry for help. Suicide is such a complex issue, as you well know, I'm not sure its a good defense for not having firearms for home protection. Anyway, I'm interested to hear your professional opinion, and thanks for participating.

Comment #106 - Posted by: Jay M. in SC at September 17, 2008 6:47 AM

#14 M@,

Fantastic clip. Carlin was the best.

Comment #107 - Posted by: uri 38m/5'11"/160 at September 17, 2008 6:47 AM

New to Crossfit - love the whole attitude!
As far as the raising kids thing, I don't have any of my own, but if I did I would want them to have some of the same experiences I did. My dad was a helicopter mechanic, and had his own business, so every Sunday I got to go with him. It was in an industrial park area, but surrounded by fields and woods. He gave me a Kabar knife and a dog, and I ran around like Tarzan. Climbed everything and explored everywhere. Fell countless times, but didn't cry about it. He also taught me to shoot a .22 rifle and we flew in Bell 47 helicopters with the doors off. It was a great time for a kid, and especially a tomgirl. I think the gun thing is personal preference - if you own guns, you have a responsibility to teach your kids how to safely handle them - even if they are under lock and key (mistakes happen). If you don't own them, then it's still a good idea to teach them gun safety - what if they go over to a friends house and there's a gun available there?? The kids at Columbine didn't do what they did because they knew how to use a gun - they did it because they had serious mental health issues that weren't addressed by their family or teachers. Most kids who have been taught how to handle guns wouldn't even think about doing what those kids did - because they don't have the same issues.
I always cringe when I hear parents talking about how they won't let their kids do things - play football, skateboard without pads, etc., I hope those kids find some way to toughen up - they'll need it when they're grown!

Comment #108 - Posted by: elaine at September 17, 2008 6:58 AM

Most of those things reminded me of boy/cub scouts. It was big when I was a kid. Are they still big? I have a feeling they aren't.

Comment #109 - Posted by: rocketman at September 17, 2008 7:24 AM

Guns... huh

I can tell you one thing. If you are in my house without permission you will come face to face with with a pistol or a shotgun. I am competent and confident enough to protect my family with a fire arm do to the fact that my parents taught me the correct way to use them. To me this includes more than just talking about it, they actually brought me out to shoot them. There are many "bad" people out there that choose to have and/or use guns at their leisure. I think the more "good" people that have guns and are knowledgeable enough to use them starts to breed a better society. I have seen several cases where a good Samaritan has stepped into a bad situation with their own firearm and made the situation better. I think this no gun attitude has boiled over into the American way. For example, I have been in the military for several years and looking at the soldiers with little time in service, both officers and enlisted. They are a different breed of people. They come from the new age of don't spank my child, don't play in the dirt and I wont educate my child about things they may encounter in the "real world". (ie guns, knifes, etc) This new age attitude is changing Americas reputation of the World Bad Ass to a country that people don't have to worry about getting in there business and showing force.

Sorry, I will get off my soap box now. Just educate your children about the things they will encounter. Teach them to think about doing the right thing. Guns are not the problem, Poor parenting is the problem.

"You can educate a fool but you can't make them think."

Comment #110 - Posted by: SAW at September 17, 2008 7:42 AM

Just started keeping track of my PRs.Got the spreadsheet but not sure how to score certain ones, anyone have a basic concept to help?

Comment #111 - Posted by: jdobry at September 17, 2008 7:43 AM

Does anyone else think it's weird that hand signs are immediately attributed to gangs? I grew up in the Bay Area...sure, we have plenty of gangs...but we also have a school for the deaf. Everything always goes back to perspective.

I get why a person that had a child killed in an accidental shooting would not want guns in the home....I get why a person that was attacked and left helpless would disagree. Call me crazy or insensitive, but I also get why if someone wants to kill's their decision, and at least they aren't taking anyone else down with them.

I grew up with lots of guns in the home...the only negative thing about it was having to clean them!

Comment #112 - Posted by: lara at September 17, 2008 7:43 AM

No rest today!

Hero workout "Murph"

-First 1 mi. = 6:30
-10 x 10 pull-ups, 20 pushups, 30 squats = 17:20
-2:00 rest
-Second 1 mi. = 7:09

Comment #113 - Posted by: Josh Uri 31/M/6'2"/195 at September 17, 2008 7:46 AM

I have been doin crossfit for 7 months now and have loved every minute of it (even the hero workouts). recently though I have been using the off days to do high intensity training, or HIT. I gotta say, adding this in has helped my stregnth tremendously. it is perfect too since you are only supposed to do hit training once every 5 to 6 days. on a more personal note, I have been hospitalized for rhabdo twice, and the silver lining issue from the july post is totally true. I find that I recover faster than my training buddy by a large margin. I am not trying to advocate killing yourself by any means, but like they say; whatever doesn't kill you only makes you stronger.

Comment #114 - Posted by: Clayton H at September 17, 2008 7:56 AM

#72, just to clarify, here's what the second amendment to the US Constitution says:

Amendment 2
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

I realize this amendment does not read very well, but it does not contain the reference you claim "in a well armed Militia".

I can't wait to take my 5 and 7 year old daughters to the range when their dad gets back from Iraq next spring.

Freddie, is that your brother next to you in the photo?

Comment #115 - Posted by: Jessica at September 17, 2008 7:59 AM

Dont forget to teach them how field dress a deer. Play with fire, but also start it without matches or lighter. Shoot a gun and a bow. My kids have knives that they have made for themselves, collected the scrap, fired up the forge, made the blade and handle, sharpened it and made the sheath to hold it.

These are skills that help them become thinking, self sufficient members of society. Producers instead of just consumers relying on others for their well being.

Comment #116 - Posted by: bg1968 at September 17, 2008 8:02 AM

I think field dressing a moose needs to be on there.

I'm guess this crowd will appreciate this:

Comment #117 - Posted by: ep at September 17, 2008 8:06 AM

Jessica (116), just to clarify a little further...

Section 311 of US Code Title 10, entitled, "Militia: composition and classes" in its entirety:

"(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are —

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia."

Comment #118 - Posted by: Steve N at September 17, 2008 8:14 AM

as rx'd

24 hours

Comment #119 - Posted by: Pete - Decatur, GA at September 17, 2008 8:22 AM


Thanks for the further clarification. I think, however, that 10 USC Sec. 311(a) needs to be amended to include "able-bodied females" as well.

I'm going to go upstairs and tell my congressman to get moving on that after I go buy ammo.

Comment #120 - Posted by: Jessica at September 17, 2008 8:24 AM

Dear socialist friends,

This is America, I forgot, it's ok. Here's a simple recipe off the top of my head that will help you return to your roots. Do it this Sunday and you'll feel like a new person.

1. Go to church and pray.
2. Eat an animal. If you can shoot one, do it and cook it over fire. Let your kids help.
3. Watch football and/or Nascar and drink a beer. Let your kid have a sip of beer when mom isn't looking.
4. When they play the National Anthem, stand up and place your right hand over your heart. It's respectful.
4. Go outside and wrestle with your kids, hunt for bugs and tinker in the garage.
5. Have dinner as a family, talk to them and tell them how much you love them. Life is short and these are the things that they'll me.

Oh, I rode my bike to work today, 8 miles and my legs felt strong, didn't even break a sweat. Go Crossfit!

Peace all, this was meant as a friendly jab. Much love to all my fellow Crossfitters :-)

Comment #121 - Posted by: Playoff Beard at September 17, 2008 8:25 AM

What's with the faux-hawk in the photo? As for the hand signs, no they're not gang signs you dorks...but it has gotten old. How many nice group photos have to be ruined before its put to a long-needed rest?

Comment #122 - Posted by: pleepleeus at September 17, 2008 8:26 AM

Did anyone notice at the UFC fight night weigh in's that Jason Brilz was wearing a Crossfit Omaha sweatshirt? Just proves that Crossfit is bad ass

Comment #123 - Posted by: jon h at September 17, 2008 8:27 AM

Agreed. The whole hand sign thing stems from the once trendy in suburbia hip hop culture...a trend borne from gang influences. Very boring. I for one can hardly wait for this fad to die.....

Comment #124 - Posted by: I mean come on at September 17, 2008 8:31 AM


People like you make this country weaker. Please leave.

Comment #125 - Posted by: Daniel Ory at September 17, 2008 8:45 AM

#100 Jay M. in SC

We realize that all people in SC are not as extremist when it comes to gun rights, and that our country is unfortunately full of citizens with your sentiment. Michael Moore's documentary on Guns in America was "right on target", speaking of sight alignment. But I guess guys like you would never take the time to educate yourselves on an alternative to violence as the answer. Since SC is so poor on public education, how about focusing more on academic endeavors such as literature and prose, "the pen is so much more effective than the sword!" Maybe we can learn something from our neighbors to the North and Europe on this issue.

As far as suicide, I can't believe you think we shouldn't worry about guns laying around if a human being wants to kill themselves. To say "at least they aren't hurting anybody else", is just heartless and completely missing the point that these people are sick, in need of help, not an easy way to end their life!

Comment #126 - Posted by: bkm at September 17, 2008 8:47 AM

Hand signs stem from an alternate form of communication for those who don't have the ability to speak and/or hear....

If all you get from a picture of your fellow crossfitters (the ones that help to keep the country you live in safe) is a negative feeling about what you think represents an old're the boring one.

Take a step back and look at it as a source of pride. No different than flying a flag or wearing a shirt in support of something you love.

Are you proud to represent anything?

Comment #127 - Posted by: lara at September 17, 2008 8:50 AM

I'd just add a couple things to the list.
1. Go backpacking. You learn not only to play with fire, but how to make it, and if you don't succeed you'll be cold and dinner will be horrible. You learn what to do with that Swiss Army knife. You also learn how to prepare and plan ahead, and the consequences of failing to do these things - what to pack? What if it rains? Or snows? You also learn not to lose stuff, though this lesson never seems to take ...
2. Walk, run, bike, or skateboard as a form of transportation. My parents hardly ever gave me a ride, anywhere. It was, "it's only two miles - you can walk, can't you?" I know these days that is considered dangerous, but I learned a lot of independence and self-reliance that way, plus I had time to decompress and think, valuable things especially in my teenage years that carried over to the rest of my life.

I guess one unintended side effect of this video has been to provoke a lot of nostalgia!

Comment #128 - Posted by: Kamper M/44/74"/205 at September 17, 2008 8:53 AM

#126 Daniel Ory

In case you haven't noticed this country is headed in the RIGHT direction, and as soon as we get some reasonable men and women on the US Supreme Court we can really improve our way of life as well as our standing in the World Community. People with my mindset are growing in number, like it or not, and that's a very good thing, so maybe you should leave.

Comment #129 - Posted by: bkm at September 17, 2008 9:04 AM

I understand your point of view. I didn't mean to offend you, but it is how I feel. Again, it's about perspective. I had a friend die trying to save the life of a suicidal woman...who later succeeded... I realize that it's not always the case, but none the less.... it has changed my perspective.

I'm not a "heartless" person, I just don't see a lot of difference between a person who kills themselves and a person who kills someone else.

Comment #130 - Posted by: lara at September 17, 2008 9:04 AM

Hand signs and suicide and guns, oh my. Is that what we're talking about? Come on folks, this is just more silly, rest day bantering. Who cares if someone signs during a photo? That said, aren't we all aware of the presence of gun control advocates? None of this is new and opining isn't going to change anyone's view. We all have our paradigms,no matter how insane we think those of others' are. Blow it off and do some deadlifts ~
By the way, I'd really like to give a special hand sign to stock market.

Comment #131 - Posted by: Mark at September 17, 2008 9:07 AM

One word to describe the video of Gever Tulley: "COMMON SENSE" Use it people! In every aspect of your life.

Comment #132 - Posted by: Cesar B._31/5'8/150 at September 17, 2008 9:09 AM

Here is a link to a chart that an athlete's partner/coach can use for scoring during the FGB event on Sept. 27th.

Comment #133 - Posted by: Corrine@SFCF at September 17, 2008 9:11 AM

#132 Mark

I think you're missing the point of rest day. Its called "mental exercise", stretching your point of view, debating an issue, communicating effectively, learning to disagree sensibly. All of these are as constructive to one's "mental fitness" as DL are to physical fitness. I say on with the show, stick around you might learn a thing or two, I know I have, and I think both sides of these issues are presenting well and with civility.

Comment #134 - Posted by: MOE at September 17, 2008 9:12 AM

The Ted video, was all ablut teaching personal responsibility. Somthing that many people in this fair country of ours seem to know nothing about. I grew up in the outdoors, building forts with real lumber and tools in real trees. I learned how to shoot with a real gun and how to drive in a real car. When I was 7. I also learned that there were REAL repercussions to making mistakes with al of those things. Fingers were smashed, fenders were bent. Dad had me shoot a pumpkin with a rifle, and told me that's what it would do to me. That got my attention.

Children who grow up sheltered, or who get all of their fun from video games never experience the repercussions of a bad decision because there aren't any. "Opps I crashed my car, I'll just hit the reset button. I defalted on my home loan because I couldn't afford it in the first placce? WHERE'S THE RESET!"

There are many examples.

No matter what everyone has the CHOICE to do therse things. The most powerful thing in the world isn't a pen a sword or a gun. It's the choice to use any of those items. "Use your choces wisely" is what my childhood taught me. Thanks Dad.
(Mom would have rather kept me in the house yard, but she gave up eventually)

As far as the gun issue goes, you have a choice not to have one. I would like to contiue to be able to make that choice myself. Plus hiding the ones I have, if they were outlawed, woud be a huge pain in the butt. If you don't like guns that's fine, you can choose to be helpless.

I have seen the direct effect of the "coddled generation" in all the young enlisted kids as well. They want the privleges that come with being responsible without the dicipline required to actually be responsible. And may the wrath of oden smite you if you tell them that they were wrong.

Comment #135 - Posted by: FRED at September 17, 2008 9:18 AM

Re: Gun Control

I've had several very lengthy conversations with my friends about gun control. We've come to a common understanding that numbers and statistics are all but useless in the debate.
Many of the studies on gun violence, accidental death and suicide are conducted in particularly biased ways, or generate ambiguous, contradictory or otherwise erroneous data. Further, there are few (if any) viable studies on the benefits of gun ownership, since it is nearly impossible to study crimes that have been prevented.
For every anti-gun study or statistic, there's going to be a pro-gun statistic, or the data will be sufficiently ambiguous to shine favorably on either position, depending on how you look at it.
This issue revolves around world-view, not science and research. If you believe that the government's role is to ensure your safety, then I'd be willing to bet that you're for gun control. If you believe that the government's role is to ensure your freedom, then you're probably against strict gun control.
It should go without saying that there has to be a balance. I'm sure that even the most hard-core gun enthusiast would not suggest that we dispense firearms in vending machines, or to criminals or toddlers. Strange, though, that hard-core gun control advocates would suggest the complete removal of guns from society.

Re: "Gang Signs"
Last I checked, a gang was three or more people (check), who use common signs and symbols (check), and conspire to commit criminal acts (um...). Since they're ALL COPS, I don't think they fit the definition of a gang.

My comment about the Church of England was meant as less of an "in-your-face" and more of a "this is interesting." I appreciate the Church's stance, which seems to be that science and religion are not mutually exclusive. You can use science to observe and understand the world, and use religion to discover yourself, relate to others and find comfort. I am quite pleased that the Church has seemed to realize the good that that both science and religion can bring to mankind and hope that we all will be able to do so, while being wary of the dangers of the abuse and corruption of both systems.

Comment #136 - Posted by: Nick Wise at September 17, 2008 9:27 AM

Having pride is great and no one has any problem with them being prideful of 1world. I'm proud to be (insert nationality here)...if every..single..time..I'm in a group photo I bust out my (insert nation here) flag and wave it in front of the camera, well, it would get real old real fast.

Comment #137 - Posted by: pleepleeus at September 17, 2008 9:41 AM

#135 MOE
I hardly think I'm missing the point of rest day.

Comment #138 - Posted by: Mark at September 17, 2008 9:46 AM


Dude, I'm really done with my position on guns and kids today. As far as education in SC and my level of education, trust me, you really never know who is participating on this forum, I'll leave it at that. Otherwise I think you've had some good arguements, most false, but well stated. haha. Have a good one and train hard!


I know you weren't sticking that comment to me, and I agree with your other points. Life is so complex sometimes, just glad we get to enjoy the simple effectiveness of CrossFit on the other 3 days. Keep up the great debate points friend, I enjoy reading and debating with you.

Comment #139 - Posted by: Jay M. in SC at September 17, 2008 9:49 AM

In my family, it is customary to give pocket knives as a gift for your 5th birthday. 8 of my 10 nephews carry pocket knives. The two that don't are 1 year and 9 months old. Once the adoption is complete for my 5 year old foster boy, he'll carry a pocket knife. By 8 years old, you should be able to drive a manual transmission in my family, as long as you're tall enought to reach the clutch to the floor. We play with fire, jump off stuff, proudly own guns and understand the responsibility that comes with that. Check out Front Sight in Parump, NV for great tactical weapons training.
Needless to say, I fully agree with Mr. Tulley. Without exposure to these things, a lot goes unlearned.

Comment #140 - Posted by: M2 at September 17, 2008 9:51 AM

Thanks Dad!

Thanks for teaching me how to build a fire at home and in the woods.

Thanks for giving me my first pocket knife and my first bb-gun.

Thanks for taking me to Canada- to my Great Grandpa's before he died. I remember when we were there, you took me down to the river bank and we used our pocket knives to find just the right willow branches. You carved a whistle and a spear throwing tool that the indians used. We practiced throwing the spears with it until I could get them all the way across the park.

Thanks for showing me how to remove and replace most pieces of '75 chev pickup (and not even getting mad at me when I put the oil in the wrong hole). Thanks for letting me steer it!

Thanks for letting me drive the tractor at Grandpa's place in Eastern Oregon, and use my .22 to shoot squirrels out of the grain.

Thanks for putting me on a horse.

Thanks Dad!

Comment #141 - Posted by: CW Limbaugh at September 17, 2008 9:54 AM

I loved the video. Kids need to do dangerous things. So many parents want to wrap their children in flame retardant cotton and soften every edge in the world and are, in fact, producing children in a cognitive desert. They grow up with a learned helplessness, ignorant and dependent on "experts."

I know that parents instinctively protect their children but this is too much. I had my first pocket knife at five, learned to read on my own (could read at the third grade level on entering first grade with no preschool or kindergarten) and was firing guns as soon as I was old enough to do it without it knocking me down. My parents both gave us room to explore and learn and make really big mistakes and learn from them.

It comes down to this: Make it idiot proof and the world will build a better idiot.

Comment #142 - Posted by: Joe B1 40/M/5'10"/200 at September 17, 2008 9:56 AM

I fully support the right to "bare arms". T-Shirts and Tank tops for all!!

Comment #143 - Posted by: John at September 17, 2008 10:05 AM


Maybe I should have said "rest day discussions" then. Either way, healthy debate is not "useless banter", and I think I've read before that this is the point of Coach posting these article and vids on rest day, to stimulate our minds and debate. If you don't like that "rest day format", go do some DL's or something :)

Comment #144 - Posted by: MOE at September 17, 2008 10:09 AM

Probably one of the better videos I've seen. I let my kids build fires when we go camping, I bought my son his first pocketknife this summer, he shot my .22 pistol last summer (and, he helped me clean it afterward) and I let them steer the car when we get close enough to home (they're 4 and 7). It's all about taking away the fascination and mysticism of dangerous things (not sure if I said that correctly or not) and teaching them responsibility. It also shows that supposedly dangerous things can be controlled and mitigated to the point of not being so dangerous if done with care, respect and responsibility. I guess I'm lucky that my kids actually listen and don't try to drink the bleach when we're not watching but kids will respond to responsibility if given the opportunity.

Comment #145 - Posted by: Rauterki at September 17, 2008 10:38 AM

As Rx'd 20:22 I think that's a PR

Comment #146 - Posted by: Mat/m/5'10"/190 at September 17, 2008 10:42 AM

Jay M. in SC

I did not mean to attack your level of education, since its obvious from your posts that you are an intelligent and well educated individual, in spite of your firearm position. I do think you and others are irresponsible for teaching firearm use to your kids or supporting handgun education for kids. But hey, they are your kids. I just hope we get some legislation that makes that practice difficult to continue, in lieu of gun violence among our Nations youth. Are you Military or in the FBI or similar agency?

Comment #147 - Posted by: bkm at September 17, 2008 10:45 AM

Please go to the following site and vote for Brad Trego!

Brad and Kim Trego own CrossFit North Fulton in Atlanta and Brad is up for Favorite Trainer by a local magazine. He's currently in 2nd place, but we want him to CRUSH the competition. Wouldn't you rather have a CrossFit trainer win instead of a plain old gym guy?!

Vote for Brad!

Comment #148 - Posted by: Peggy at September 17, 2008 10:50 AM

Yeah CW #142- I think (in retrospect) that having a bb gun for all those years actually likely kept me from getting in trouble, and was one of the things that kept me out in the woods, exploring and learning. I wasn't 'hunting', I was shooting acorns, sticks, endless inanimate objects, an occasional minnow.. Trying to carve things from sticks, prime example- My Side of the Mountain. Alot of interesting ideas in that book for an exploring kid.

And bkw. really. Trying to insult someone by throwing a blanket statement implying that they don't educate in SC? I don't think Jay gave up the argument, I think he was just tired of talking to a brick wall. Incorrectly capitalizing some words like they are a deity does not make it more important, nor does it impress educated minds. It was starting to sound like one of those empty North versus South arguments, assumptions based on one's residence.

Comment #149 - Posted by: DustyRgr76 at September 17, 2008 10:55 AM

I can't believe I'm feeling argumentative on a page like this. lol (shakes head)

Comment #150 - Posted by: DustyRgr76 at September 17, 2008 10:56 AM

Did I ever tell you about the time my 12 yr. old almost set base housing on fire? No? Well it's actually a pretty funny story involving lighters, empty cans of Axe and 2 buddies.....and he's got a totally cool swiss army knife, and takes apart our keyboard on a regular basis, and drives when I am feeling rather brave. It's all good. BTW, this safety crap only goes on in the good ol' USA, and it's only because we are sue-crazy. You can't clog up Eurpopean courts with silly law suits regarding your kid being a total idiot. Quite frankly, that's your problem.

Comment #151 - Posted by: j at September 17, 2008 11:00 AM


Could you clarify your position on firearms? Are you against firearms, in general, or just against the idea of kids knowing how to use them?

Either way, could you also tell us some reasons that you are against them? I think that you're one of the only ones here that is arguing for more strict gun control laws, and I have to admire your conviction to speak your mind, despite the popular (at least locally) position.

Most of us that are arguing against the position that you seem to have taken ('all guns are bad') have enumerated a fair amount of reasons for our stance, including our interpretation of the Second Amendment, the recent Supreme Court decision, a quote from Thomas Jefferson, the arguments from self-defense and personal responsibility, and the lack of substantial evidence that guns actually cause or contribute to violence.

So far, all you have seemed to do is level veiled insults and throw in a plug for your choice of Presidential candidates. This doesn't make your argument any stronger, it just makes you look like an ass. So, if you wouldn't mind, could you offer a more strict definition of your position, and explain why you feel so strongly about it? I think most of us in here would be happy to show your side a little more respect, if you displayed it in a more respectful and logical manner.


Comment #152 - Posted by: Nick Wise at September 17, 2008 11:04 AM

Its not his position, but his insulting manner that is getting to people on here, I think.

Comment #153 - Posted by: DustyRgr76 at September 17, 2008 11:06 AM

Its not bkm's position, but insulting manner that is getting to people on here, I think.

Comment #154 - Posted by: DustyRgr76 at September 17, 2008 11:07 AM

Made-up Fran today...
400M run

Fran As Rx'd 6:40

The video made come excellent points.
I'm goin to get my 5yo boy a pocket knife this weekend and teach him how to use it. Then we're going to split and stack firewood in preparation for this winter's lessons about fire.
I learned to shoot,clean and respect a rifle in the scouts when I was 8. That seemed like an apropriate age for me and will be for my son. My dad always had a rifle in his closet (.30-06) and after learning about it and shooting it, I never touched it. I never wanted to. It was a tool with two purposes killing and protection. I never needed but it was available if I did.
My son is also getting his first tool box for christmas this year. I am in the process of filling it with common, basic tools that everyone should know how to use. Could he hurt himself with them? Yes. Will he? Probably. Will he learn to respect and use them properly through my instruction and his mistakes?DEFINATELY.
I think the point here is to spend time with your kids and try to instill in them respect for the world around them. Teach them the lessons you learned the hard way but let them make mistakes; it's how we all learn. Let them know you love them even if they aren't perfect and be open to them and you won't have to worry about your child being involved in Columbine style shootings. IMO The failing there wasn't the easy access to guns. The failing there was with the parents, the school, and the apathetic community as a whole. What if those kids had walked into the school armed with knives and swords and just started slashing away at people? Would you ban knives? What if they set the school ablaze with gasoline?(Thank God they didn't!) Would you ban gaso...wait liberals are already trying to do that aren't they? :P Anyway, i digress...

Comment #155 - Posted by: Sparky_33/M/5'5"/205 at September 17, 2008 11:08 AM

looks like my pre-correction went through. ah well

Comment #156 - Posted by: DustyRgr76 at September 17, 2008 11:08 AM

Jessica (121)

Don't know about the other states, but Florida's constitution (article X, section 2) states that the militia consists of all able bodied inhabitants. It does not differentiate between male and female.

Comment #157 - Posted by: hw at September 17, 2008 11:12 AM

bkm and all others not familiar with firearms,
If you teach a child about firearms, you reduce the chance that they will ever be in a firearms related incident by approx 97% (2002 figure). I do not know what the stat is today, but it is pretty logical if you stop to think about it for a minute. If you teach your child how guns operate and how dangerous they are, then if they are ever in a scenario where someone has a gun, they know the safety procedures for dealing them.
For example, your child goes to a friend's house without telling you, (hard to believe, but it happens!). Their new friend has access to fireamrs, but does not know how to use them. Which would you prefer, your child doing a proper safety check on the gun and making sure that it is unloaded (because you educated him/her on this and how dangerous firearms can be if mistreated)OR not doing a safety check and someone getting accidently shot (because their parents view is guns = evil)?
To answer my question, think of what you would say at your child's eulogy. I will give you a line to start with "If I had only cared enough about my child to teach them..."

Comment #158 - Posted by: Team-G at September 17, 2008 11:14 AM

"An unarmed person can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it."
-- Col. Jeff Cooper, RIP

From the same man that realized early on that "men will die for points" and revolutionized pistol training by making it a sport.


Comment #159 - Posted by: howard at September 17, 2008 11:14 AM

Awesome article.

I think two of the many factors responsible for overprotected, sheltered children are affluence and technology. It's a remarkable thing that we as a society are now so rich and have so many appliances that we don't need to enlist the kids' help around the house, as people have done for thousands of years.

All these things used to be taught to kids out of necessity. Now that there's no pressing need, kids aren't taught to drive a car/tractor, make a fire, etc. Nice to see this as a response.

And I agree with all the posts about teaching kids firearm safety as well.

But, and this is a real, honest, not-intended-to-be-flamebait question; I've always wondered: why handguns? It seems to me that if I wanted to defend a home, I'd buy a shotgun. If I wanted to kill an animal (or defend a ranch), I'd buy a rifle. If I wanted to "be ready when the revolution comes," I'd buy an assault weapon. Philosophically, I'm OK with all these ideas.

I'm no expert (and I'm very interested in the thoughts of the experts here), but it seems to me that this only leaves my commute to/from work/school/grocery store for a handgun to be useful. If this is indeed the case, wouldn't the sales numbers for handguns indicate that thousands of people are using the wrong tool for the wrong job? There's just not that many people who live in crime-infested areas (thanks to all you LEO folks). So why so many handguns?

Comment #160 - Posted by: scotty022 at September 17, 2008 11:16 AM

From the Maine State Constitution:
Section 16. To keep and bear arms. Every citizen has a right to keep and bear arms and this right shall never be questioned.

"and this right shall never be questioned"... and we're a blue state! :)

Comment #161 - Posted by: Sparky_33/M/5'5"/205 at September 17, 2008 11:18 AM

...not to mention that child having a healthy respect from the trigger and knowing not to touch it , even if they do end up with their friend presenting it to them. Knowing that they shouldn't be playing with it.

Comment #162 - Posted by: DustyRgr76 at September 17, 2008 11:23 AM


Thank you for asking, and yes I will try to be more explicit. I am against guns for the purpose of killing humans. I don't have a problem with firearms for hunting purposes, and I do enjoy wildgame on occassion. I believe, and I am not alone in this country, although I'm in the minority here, that handguns and assault rifles are a problem for untrained citizens to have in their homes and cars. I am not against well trained, ie: LEO, Military, and high profile public officials, having handguns for their and our protection. Men like Jay who are hell bent on having a gun on their side or in their coat just b/c they can, miss the point that all citizens are not responsible, mentally stable, and capable of safely and reasonably handling handguns without jeopardizing other law-abiding citizens. You can argue that criminals will always have firearms, so we should let people have them anyway. Well that begs the real issue. We don't make narcotics available over the counter just b/c criminals and abusers will peddle it to our kids do we? In the same way why have we let firearms "run rampant", even to the point of teaching our kids that they are "a good thing"? We are one of the few Nations in the World to take such a liberal stance on gun rights. What is even more bizarre to me is that I bet guys like that are probably church-going, honorable men who would just as soon pull the trigger than negotiate to save a life. If that insults people then maybe they need to consider the value of other human lives and how their stance affects them.

Comment #163 - Posted by: bkm at September 17, 2008 11:25 AM

So if there are steps to be made, then why not have people trained properly, and require them to be certified, rather than doing away with the instrument in question?

Another thought- Who do you want to educate your kids? You, or the movies and video games?

Comment #164 - Posted by: DustyRgr76 at September 17, 2008 11:32 AM

note- the question isn't necessarily focused at one person.

Comment #165 - Posted by: DustyRgr76 at September 17, 2008 11:35 AM


You stated, "I do think you and others are irresponsible for teaching firearm use to your kids or supporting handgun education for kids." Really? You're against educating our children on both the dangers and benefits of firearm use? To not educate them is irresponsible much the same way of not educating them on the dangers of the other things mentioned in the video. If you teach kids to be responsible and take away the fascination of dangerous things then children will respond accordingly.
By the way, the next time you find yourself in need of a sheepdog, let me know because I'll be more than happy to defend you and your family.

Comment #166 - Posted by: Rauterki at September 17, 2008 11:36 AM


* Anchored (declined)situps

Had to make up for yesterday. My last "Michael" was 9/11 and I had a better time because my back exts. were actually supermans on a BOSU ball. Makes it hard to measure progress when you change the exercise...silly me.

Comment #167 - Posted by: Keith M at September 17, 2008 11:59 AM


Are you opposed to "untrained citizens" having the right to own property or to vote and influence public policy? How about having children? I suppose the federal government should make those kinds of decisions for us, because we are obviously not qualified to do so as mere citizens.

The Libertarian in me cannot understand your mindset at all, but that's ok. The fact that we can have this discussion is a small testament to the fact that we live in the greatest country in the world.

Comment #168 - Posted by: Playoff Beard at September 17, 2008 12:01 PM

Made up 'The Chief' today. That WOD's no joke!


I found I was finishing a full round and taking the remainder of the time off so on the 5th round I pushed and got the 4th round with 1 second to spare.

Great Workout!

Comment #169 - Posted by: John-Orillia M/36/5'9"/155 at September 17, 2008 12:07 PM

I finally got out of the room and caught up with a few days ago- fran , I lowered the weight to 65 for the thrusters and got it done in 3:44. I know, I need more weight. I know if I'd had it at 95 it would have been around ten minutes. haha Trying to ease into it, for care of knee joints and such.

Comment #170 - Posted by: DustyRgr76 at September 17, 2008 12:09 PM

I completely concur with the article, kids need to discover their own limits.

It is a shame that some some people don't learn that they are not bullet proof until they get behind the wheel of a car.

Now, I'm going outside to do some somersaults and handstands and cartwheels :>) Then I'm going climbing with my six year old daughter... Wahoo rest day

Have Fun, Train Hard,


Comment #171 - Posted by: Billy at September 17, 2008 12:11 PM


Man that was harsh ,"guys like that would rather pull the trigger than negotiate to save a life". What exactly does that mean? I followed you and actually thought you made some good points until that one. Please clarify.

Comment #172 - Posted by: MOE at September 17, 2008 12:12 PM

Yeah, I noticed but held my tongue at the church goer who would rather pull the trigger inference. hmm

Comment #173 - Posted by: DustyRgr76 at September 17, 2008 12:17 PM


Thanks for the response. I, too, am against the guns for the purpose of killing other people, I think we all are. But if a criminal is going to use deadly force on me or my family, I would like to have the option to use deadly force in return. This is not killing another human because I can, it's killing to defend myself or others. It's what cops and soldiers do on a regular basis and both cops and soldiers are trusted with the discipline and judgment to defend themselves and defend others. Would the world be worse if all law-abiding citizens had the discipline and judgment to protect themselves and others?

Further, I don't think anybody here is advocating completely free and open use of any type of firearms. There has to be regulations. But if I am not a criminal, and I am mentally stable, and I go through training, test and qualify, should I not be allowed to own, carry and use a firearm? Should I not be allowed to teach my children a healthy respect for that firearm, as well? To extend your analogy on drugs, we don't give our kids illegal narcotics, but we do give them prescription medications (sometimes), many of which ARE narcotics. Drugs are tools, you can use them to treat illness and injury or you can use them for recreation, or to kill people. It's the use, NOT the substance, that is the problem.

Same thing with guns. It's a tool that can be used for lots of things. It's abhorrent that bad people use guns to do evil. But, in my opinion, a greater evil is committed in denying a good person the ability to protect himself against that evil.

Scotty: Re. Why Handguns?
Speaking from a strictly tactical and logistical perspective, handguns are more efficient. Lighter weight, easier to carry, easier to conceal. They allow for greater mobility and, hence can be used more effectively at close range. Since most instances of self-defense with a firearm happen at a close range (less than 8-feet), this makes sense. A shotgun is great for stopping power at close range, too, but if you're having to maneuver through hallways and rooms with furniture, a shotgun is also a bit more unwieldy, not to mention that it is much more difficult to bring to bear against an aggressor who is literally in your face and/or wrestling with you. You can also use a handgun with just one functioning hand, in the event that you are injured (either during or before a violent encounter). Basically, all the same reasons that we provide our soldiers with combat knives, instead of spears or swords. Hope that helped.

Comment #174 - Posted by: Nick Wise at September 17, 2008 12:21 PM

Playoff Beard

I am not a Communist. I believe in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, we just interpret on article differently. Please remember the vote in the US Supreme Court upholding the 2nd Amendment was only 5-4 in your favor. Sounds pretty close to be such an case-closed controversy huh. But thanks for allowing me to post my opinion and for remaining civil, unlike others here who I think are just afraid.....yeah afraid.

Sorry, I meant they would rather hastily pull the trigger on a "potential" threat without taking time to ask questions and negotiate to save their life or someone elses. I think the meantality is "be a victor not a victim", "hit or be hit", and "be prepared to act and shoot quickly, or to rest in peace". And yes I have family members and in-laws who preach this nonsense all the time.
To all our Military and LEO's out there who protect and serve, I in no way mean to offend you. I am not really addressing you guys. Thanks for serving.

Comment #175 - Posted by: bkm at September 17, 2008 12:22 PM


All good brother.

Comment #176 - Posted by: Playoff Beard at September 17, 2008 12:28 PM

I like the way Nick #175 worded it. Interesting how it ended up being primarily a gun control discussion. I do like the subject of the day, let your kids be kids, but in the right way. I wasn't able to watch the video from where I am though, but commented from people's stated thoughts mainly.

Comment #177 - Posted by: DustyRgr76 at September 17, 2008 12:30 PM

I guess it would be wrong to teach my kid Parkour or Free Running in this day and age...maybe that's why it seems to exist more in Europe. Hmmmm. But I am training on it. I'm such a rebel.

Comment #178 - Posted by: Keith M at September 17, 2008 12:33 PM

I think most crossfitters are going to like this video. It's the same reason why we can rip the skin of our hands, rub barbells against our shins and the reason olifts look fun to us and violent and dangerous to others. The people who's parents kept them from doing anything because they didn't want there kids to get hurt are the same ones that look at us crazy then go back to the leg extension machine.
Another thing if you tell a kid not to do something, like don't touch the gun, they get curious about it and that's when they get it out when your not around and mess with it uneducated and unsupervised. That's when things go wrong. Get a kid to think that a gun is a normal everyday thing and they won't mess with it.
I hate when parents tell there kids to stop jumping off something or stop climbing up something when my kid is doing the same thing and I think it's fine. I tell my daughter to keep doing it and the parents look at me like I'm nuts.

Comment #179 - Posted by: Shawn Casey at September 17, 2008 12:35 PM


Did diane for the first time as Rx'd

time - 4:01

Comment #180 - Posted by: JWH at September 17, 2008 12:41 PM

What an excellent presentation. No wonder my dad had me pulling nails on construction sites at 6, my first pocket knife at 8 (stabbed myself in the hand too) plus driving the work truck (on site, of course). He also had a 16 foot pole house for me, accessible only by a 12 foot rope ladder around that time too. "If you can't climb that latter, you can't play in it..." Scared the crap out of neighborhood kids when they saw that yellow ladder for the first time...

Hmmm, had my first PBR around that time (one of his friends ideas), and I stole wine and got my dog Toto drunk (looked just like him too). Oh, and he bought me my first 12 gauge on my 12th b-day (Remington semi-auto to boot). Dang near knocked me over; fortunately it was still cold that year in April and I had my heavy winter coat on.

Sigh. Now I am missing my pop. Thanks coach for bringing up wonderful memories on rest day, the day I learned I'm going to be a pop in about 9 months. I can't wait; I am practically jumping out of my shoes when I am walking around the office. : )

Comment #181 - Posted by: James Humphrey, Jr. at September 17, 2008 12:42 PM

This gun debate is fascinating. Forget the hyperbole and the emotion. Where is the science and reasoning? Anyone read Gleck's defensive gun use numbers?

Crossfit uses science and numbers to backup it's programming.

I think if people would honestly do the same to this issue, schools would have an Armourer on staff like "Tunnel in the Sky" by Robert Heinlein...

Comment #182 - Posted by: Roden at September 17, 2008 12:42 PM

Who cares about guns, NICOLE IS HOT!!!

And she touched my back at a cert in April...
Either my core was getting lazy or she likes me...


Comment #183 - Posted by: sleeveless in seattle at September 17, 2008 12:44 PM


Congrats man, being a father is the greatest thing in the world. Sounds like you had a great role model and I'm sure you're going to be an awesome dad.

My only advice: Enjoy every single second because it flies by like you won't believe.

Comment #184 - Posted by: Playoff Beard at September 17, 2008 12:50 PM

I think cigarettes kill a hell of a lot more people than handguns, When are going to ban them or at least require a license and trainig in order to purchase them?

Comment #185 - Posted by: bg1968 at September 17, 2008 12:55 PM

Thanks, PB! I sure will. Last night it was hard to sleep because I kept thinking and thinking and ugh, I wound up waking up early doing the same thing.

K, I am outta here to hit the gym. Take care.

Comment #186 - Posted by: James Humphrey, Jr at September 17, 2008 12:56 PM

I heard about Gever and his school a while back. Hopefully he'll make a dent and we can start moving things in the right direction as far as our over-legislated safety. Fight safety legislation. Encourage good parenting!!

Comment #187 - Posted by: Roger at September 17, 2008 1:02 PM

Different cultures, I guess... but for me, any parent that will allow child to touch any kind of gun, should seriously reconsider his/her role in educating new generation.

Comment #188 - Posted by: joss at September 17, 2008 1:12 PM

Okay finally saw the video. Don't quite know where the gun debate came from...

I think that the speaker was pretty good. His delivery could have used some work but hey, he was up there so kuddos. What stood out to me was "Raise Your Kids". I noticed a lot of posts were talking about how dad/parent did all these wonder learning experiences like helped their kids catch and skin buffalo at 5 yrs old and things like that.

In my growing up I was driving by 11, yes I know a little old based on some other posts but I was in South Central LA. Don't even think I saw a tractor(it's a joke). The interesting point is this, on my 16th b-day, I took the test and got my license. I know a kid who is 16.5 and is extremely nervous about driving. He won't even drive if he's asked to (he has a permit). His mother sheltered him.

I've done 4 of the 5 things that the speaker spoke of. It was a great learning experience. I learned why you shouldn't cut a cord plugged into a socket. How electricity flows(okay, he didn't talk about that). How upset your parents get when you deconstruct an appliance that wasn't broken. The dangers of backyard fires. How to drive before the legal age. And how pocket knives allow you to cut thru string or at least back some bullies off. Not saying I was menance, just into self-preservation. Still wanna throw a speak though. Does throwing darts count???

All in all, I joke somewhat in my post but still what got my attentions was "Raise Your Kids". Not teachers, not TV, not other kids' parents, not the

Comment #189 - Posted by: Keith M at September 17, 2008 1:16 PM

#88 I am going to take a huge shot in the dark here and say that the left hand holding up the index finger means #1 and the right hand in a fist represents world, This is our "Pseudo" gang sign

Comment #190 - Posted by: EricFromOneWorld at September 17, 2008 1:30 PM

I enjoyed the video. Maybe because I'm just a really big kid.

On the gun issue. I have never wanted a gun in my house but I understand the reason that some people would. I will not argue your constitutional right to own and use a firearm.

I will, however, argue that purchasing a gun has become too easy for untrained people. It is my belief that stricter background checks must be enforced and (this next part is wishful thinking) that to own a firearm, individuals must be properly trained first. That's not to say that they have to LEO's or anything, but civilians ought to properly certified to own, operate, keep clean and store guns. Earlier this year, in Boston, people were pushing for a gun certification test every six years when they renew the license's.

Comment #191 - Posted by: EricBrandom at September 17, 2008 1:34 PM

#193 point taken and I saw the answer in some other posts. My mistake. Still, gang infiltration into Mil and LE is an ongoing problem...

and as my state trooper brother says "the Police are the largest most well armed gang in the state... or should be..."

Comment #192 - Posted by: Roden at September 17, 2008 1:36 PM

Guns, like cars, drugs, and alcohol will kill innocent people. It's unavoidable. However, we absolutely need them to defend ourselves, not so much from ourselves, but from our own government.

On the kids and parenting. I agree in that in general we need to give them more freedom to explore, to break things, and to let them hurt themselves etc. Life takes no prisoners after you grow up and unfortunately, the best time to learn about your limits is when you're a kid.

Comment #193 - Posted by: rodrigo at September 17, 2008 1:36 PM

Watched my 6 yo daughter climb her first 20 foot rope yesterday. Needless to say daddy was pround. She loves to do ring pullups and climb my 1" rope in the garage.

However, I put a mat under her so if she falls she doesn't crack her skull open on cement. I'm not going to lose her easily. I also require her to ride a bike with a helmet and use her seat belt in the car. Both of these are things I didn't do as a kid. (Didn't have car seats and seatbelts when I was younger). I choose not to wear a seatbelt until I strapped myself into my first airplane. After that it is a habit I can't break.

I skiied until I was 40 then I took up snowboarding. However, I never wore a helmet until I started snowboarding. Good thing it has saved me from at least 4 major concussions and multiple sticks to the head.

So, somethings changes do make sense. I think it is irresponsible for Schwartzie #70 to make the comment he did. I pray that your childern are as fortunate as I have been and that they live a long life. Simple methods of prevention will not make your kids weaker.

Comment #194 - Posted by: Jim D. 47yom 160# 5'11" at September 17, 2008 1:47 PM


Following on the narcotics analogy, I am not saying to abolish use of guns completely, but just as prescription narcotics ie: Lortab, Percocet, Oxycontin, have a very real role in treating pain and are clinical tools when used by "trained medical personnel", ie they prescribe them in proper dosage and in the right clinical situation, guns have a role too. You might give them to your child but only after proper counsel and under direction of an MD. I believe handguns and assault weapons have a role when used by highly trained Military and LEO's, just like those same narcotics. But to make these medications as widely available as handguns, "even with an 8 hr course, is simply rediculous, and I'm sure you would agree. Yes they are both tools, no I'm not for removing guns from our country, but I don't want Billy Joe Bumpkin running around untrained with an assault rifle any more than I want them using prescription narcotics outside medical supervision or followup. I don't know what Jay M's level of training is, he seems reasonable enough, but I still don't think it makes it ok to introduce handguns to children, no matter what the intentions are. Besides that, there are people in our society who ALWAYS abuse the freedoms given to the devestation of or society.

Comment #195 - Posted by: bkm at September 17, 2008 1:49 PM

I fully subscribe that Hunter Safety should be a mandatory class in all schools, and if not that course, a gun safety course. Everyone that fears their kids getting their hands on a gun likely fear their kids getting their hands on drugs. So, regarding drugs, what do you do? TEACH them the dangers, educate them as best you can, right? Does that guarantee that they'll never use drugs or be exposed to them? Of course not. Same thing with guns. Surely, even if you loathe guns, if your child just happened to put one in their hands, you would rather your child put his hand on a gun knowing something about them, how it works, how to safely handle, check to insure it's unloaded, etc, knowing nothing at all? If anything, this video shows that kids like danger!
My kids are great shots at sporting clays and dead-eye with a longbow!

Oh, and my son drove (on my lap) 100 miles between Casper WY and Billings MT on I-25 when he was 8. Think he had any problem learning how to drive at 16?

Comment #196 - Posted by: bill m/49/72"/212 at September 17, 2008 1:51 PM


You don't want your kid smoking, cigarettes or weed, so you teach them about the don't want your kids having sex, safe or otherwise, so you teach them the consequences and how to protect themselves..... why then would you sheild them from something, a gun, that you think is so dangerous. This mentality baffles me. Even if you don't have guns in your house chances are they could run into one out in the big scary world. Better that they know how to safely handle it and protect themselves and their friends from an accident. I own a lot of guns and none of them have killed anyone.

Comment #197 - Posted by: MilwaukeeMark at September 17, 2008 1:53 PM

I was hoping this would be a really compelling video presentation. It wasn't. Yawn.

I honestly don't think---nay, I KNOW these five things won't prepare them any better for life than five other things might.

Randomly selected as I type:
-Dancing will teach coordination, balance, and physical usefulness

-Math will develop in them logical, critical thinking skills.

-Swimming will teach them to face uncertain, even hostile, environments and survive.

-Writing will teach them to communicate clearly in both thought and word.

-A vegetable garden will teach them the value and rewards of hard work, commitment, and where their food comes from.

Comment #198 - Posted by: GP at September 17, 2008 1:57 PM

#200 GP

Perhaps you missed the spirit of the presentation.

You can cover your kid in bubble-wrap and smother him/her with worry that they might get a scratch. Or you can allow them to explore the world and become people of character that are capable of overcoming obstacles and hardships.

I love how these rest day discussions morph. The video said nothing of guns, but that has dominated the discussion. Obsess much?

Maybe I'm cynical, but I think the problems in the US as far as homicide/suicide are more of an issue with the breakdown in family values than anything else. People that are willing to supervise their kids and teach them about "dangerous" things are there for there kids. It's not so much about the "dangerous" activities as it is about being an attentive/caring parent. To what extent a parent is willing to let their kid learn things the hard way is more of a side note in my opinion.

I would caution those of you that expect the government/police/military to take care of you...
My dad was a homicide detective in North Las Vegas when I was growing up. I've heard some really scary stuff. And let me tell you, when that random person, high on drugs, comes in your back door looking to have a little fun with you and your family, whether you voted for Obama or not, you'll either be able to protect yourself, or you won't.

"It won't happen to me" cuts both ways. Your kid could accidentally shoot someone with a gun. But at least you have a semblance of control over that. If a bad person decides to do something to you, you have NO control over that.

Lastly, in my opinion, get a dog and a gun if you really want to stay safe in your home. It's very difficult for an intruder to sneak past a good guard dog. And by the time they make it past the dog, you'll have time to be loaded up and ready. Home alarm system are pretty much useless (and expensive).

Comment #199 - Posted by: Reno_Ty at September 17, 2008 2:31 PM

Re Five Dangerous Things

Do teach your children to cope with all the dangerous things as soon as they can - fire, knives, and even guns - all the things with which to defend or commit mayhem -- arbitrarily.

And do be sure to put him on Ritalin - or Zoloft or Luvox or, like mommy, Prozac.

That way he'll have mastered all the apps but have no operating system.

That way the higher parts of his brain where self-control is learned will atrophy, having never developed through trial and error. Lethal skills, but schizophrenic.

It's a recipe somewhat like our prisons, except there we screen for sociopathic first, and then hone the skills.

If your pedia-shrink prescribes a psychotrophic drug, do get a second opinion and rely on it. Repeat as necessary. ADHD is to diseases as man made global warming is to chemistry and physics.

Comment #200 - Posted by: Jeff Glassman at September 17, 2008 2:40 PM

bkm and those on the GUN CONTROL issue,

A very interesting article on gun control appeared in the UTNE reader. Admittedly this magazine is a very 'left' publication, but this article on cun control was pretty non-partisan.

It's thesis was more "gun control" is needed, but not on gun ownership. Greater control and more serious penalties (federal prison) is required with respect to the sale of guns.

The position was based on the following:

"There are 280 million firearms in private hands in America, and in 2006 there were almost 400,000 gun crimes. That means that 279,600,000 guns did nothing wrong. We also know from a 2000 report by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) that in 89 percent of crimes, the person using the gun was not the person who originally bought it. So nine out of ten crime guns changed hands between the first purchase (which was probably legal) and the last purchase (which was certainly illegal)."


"The first step is to make gun trafficking a federal crime, not a term of art. There is only one statute on the federal books that deals even indirectly with gun trafficking—a vague, loophole-ridden law that allows only federally licensed gun stores “to engage in the business” of dealing in firearms.

Since federal law allows any individual to sell his or her own firearms to anyone else, the “engaged in the business” bar is easily surmountable. And since any individual may also sell firearms without performing a background check, asking for identification, or keeping any sort of record, the requirement that individuals not knowingly sell to criminals is merely a suggestion. That is why federal prosecutors in 29 states filed five or fewer cases related to trafficking behavior over a recent three-year period.

Trafficking should be redefined as selling out of a home, car, street, or park multiple guns that have two or more of the following characteristics: obliterated serial numbers, are stolen, are new in the box, are sold to underage buyers or people with felony records. This would still allow individuals to sell firearms privately to people they know or trust, and it would put the onus on sellers to demand a background check for those they don’t know."

I would have linked to the article but when I link here my post gets held. The title is "Shooting Blanks: Why gun control misses the target"

Comment #201 - Posted by: Prole at September 17, 2008 2:41 PM

This lecture is right on. The Today Show, and a whole host of other media tell try to tell us that we're not safe walking outside of our front door. The Today show panders to scared mothers who will actually put their kids in a plastic bubble based on all of this (often unproven) advice. The real world is not that peachy, and kids who have lived in a bubble will not survive.

That all sounded very Darwinistic - oh well.

Comment #202 - Posted by: Alex84 at September 17, 2008 2:50 PM

#5...apparently, everyone got side-tracked by BKM (for good reason). I will say a few things before I attempt to answer your question, which I don't beleive anyone responded to:

1st: BKM-I pray to God that one of us fine LEO's or military personnel make it to your house in the middle of the night to save your life because you think they should be the only ones to bear arms.

2nd: I hope that you realize how many men/women sacraficed thier precious lives for you to have the right to bear arms and actually have a constitution in a free America.

3rd: #5...if you think 21 blocks is too much and you don't lose any weight (if that's what you want), go to 18 blocks with 3 four block meals and 2 three block snacks. Nothing says you have to eat all the food each day. If you have questions about the Zone, email He is the man when it comes to this stuff.

FINALLY: I have one last comment for BKM.................."BAHHHHHHHHHHH"

Comment #203 - Posted by: Unit 40 at September 17, 2008 3:01 PM

Unit 40,

How many men and women is it who sacrificed their lives so a single American could bear arms?

Here's why I think American men and women have sacrificed their life in combat: for the safety of the loved ones, for the right not to be a piece of chattel, for the right to elect their leaders, for the right to speak and think what the want, for the right to worship how they want, for the right to move without hindance, to work in whatever place and in whatever position they can win work, to establish these rights for others, to protect the rights of others. There are more rights and values that American men and women have fought for, that list is not exhasutive, and yes the right to own a gun makes it on the list somewhere low on the list - for many it doesn't even make the list.

You're going to tell me that the right to bear arms is a necessary condition for all of these things. The dying that American men and women have done to accomplish the things listed above since the war of 1775-1783 has not been as individuals shooting their privately owned guns. It has been as a member of a state-run, state-funded, state-provisioned, state-equipped military. The fact that Americans have had certain gun ownerhip rights has not contributed one little bit to its success in protecting or fostering the above-mentioned values and rights around the world.

Comment #204 - Posted by: Prole at September 17, 2008 3:15 PM

#207 Prole

I have a serious problem with the "logic" your third paragraph. Bearing arms isn't a necessary condition for having these rights. Rather, it IS one of these rights.

By your own admission, "the right to own a gun makes it on the list".

So yes, that is one of the reasons many Americans have died. They died so that censors can't edit "the list" as they see fit in a dictatorial fashion. If people start editing the list because the know "what's best" for all of us, then we're headed down a slippery slope, IMO.

Comment #205 - Posted by: Reno_Ty at September 17, 2008 3:27 PM


I think if you look at the history of the revolutionary war, you will find a large number of the participants used their privately owned weapons. Many of the militias at that time were not state funded. If you wanted to eat you had a weapon for hunting. So I think that gun ownership has played a major role in protecting and fostering all of the above mentioned rights.

Comment #206 - Posted by: bg1968 at September 17, 2008 3:30 PM

I'm just starting out with Crossfit and it really does kick your A**! I'm 29/m/6'1"/255, does anyone implement cardio in with their workouts or does everyone just do the WOD? I'm trying to get back into "fighting" shape, probably trying to drop about 20 lbs. Any comments, suggestions, etc. would be greatly appreciated.

Comment #207 - Posted by: Tctaylor79 at September 17, 2008 3:42 PM

Pocket knife, fire, deconstruct an appliance, etc., the TED video described my youth, so naturally I agree. Well, almost. The part about pirating recordings wasn't part of my youth and really shouldn't be on his list either. It's a bit surprising that in a community that supports the value of intellectual property as much as this one does that nobody called that point before this. Am I missing something?

Comment #208 - Posted by: carl at September 17, 2008 3:43 PM

#211 Carl

I think the DMCA is a big steaming heap of...

That's why you should only purchase DRM free music (Amazon music store, and iTunes plus tracks). Taking away the right to "back-up" music/movies that you've purchased is evil. The whole thing is fueled by a bunch of Recording industry execs that are terrified that their cash-cow may be in jeopardy.

But I digress...
I think the point was to illustrate to children that they should be mindful of their actions because they might be doing something illegal without even knowing it. But I could be wrong.

Comment #209 - Posted by: Reno_Ty at September 17, 2008 3:50 PM

RE: the video

Invite your children to examine and discover and learn from and carry within them the wildness of creation, because there are lessons to be learned (about themselves and the world around them), and questions that simply cannot be asked, nor answered, at the kitchen table.

I love this website!

(Father of two AMAZING girls)

Comment #210 - Posted by: Esse Quam Videri at September 17, 2008 3:59 PM


I couldn't help but notice your handle:
"Esse quam videri"

I love it! I'm writing letters to my son (9 mo) and daughter (2y 8mo) that maybe they'll read when they're older or if I should die before they grow up. One of the things I said to each of them is that the true measure of a person is what that person does when there is no penalty. I think Esse Quam Videri will find its way into my next letter.

Comment #211 - Posted by: Reno_Ty at September 17, 2008 4:12 PM


tried to do the SP, PP, PJ WOD but knee too sore and whole quad cramping.

SP: 75-80-85-90-95(f)
PP: 95x3-100x3-105x3-105x3

knee pain, called it quits.

3 rounds of:

10 pull-ups
25 ghd sit-ups

forgot to stop watch when done, have no idea how long it took. head not in the game today.

pre: wux1
post: smr

Comment #212 - Posted by: nadia shatila at September 17, 2008 4:14 PM

-teach them to swim by age 5.
-don't be afraid of swimming in the ocean.
-learn to ride a bike.
-learn to cut away from you
-change a tire

Comment #213 - Posted by: Hugo, 6',1 3/4", 218, 39 at September 17, 2008 4:20 PM

#210 Tctaylor79

Welcome! I recommend you read everything under the 'Start Here' and 'FAQ' tabs of the main site. You'll feel right at home given that many combatice videos can be found in the 'Exercises & Demos' tab. Metabolic conditioning (i.e. cardio) is an integral part of most WODs. That includes WODs that don't have any running or rowing. For most people, the WOD is enough. In fact, many say that if you feel like you need more after a WOD, you didn't push hard enough. If want to work on certain exercises that you consider weaknesses, incorporate them into your warm-up (but skip them if they are part of the WOD). If you want ideal performance and weight loss, try the paleo/zone diet. That would mean eating foods prescribed by the paleo diet in quantities prescribed by the zone diet.

#5 Bryan,

You may want to take a look at Robb Wolf's blog at
Robb is one of CrossFit's nutrition experts. You will most likely find the answer to your questions within Robb's blog.

Comment #214 - Posted by: M@ at September 17, 2008 4:30 PM

I ran into a tree pulling a wagon when I was a little boy. Smashed my thumb against the trunk and had to get stitches in it.

I tried to jump my bicycle over a curb, and the bike stopped cold. I flew through the handlebars and cut open my leg on that center bolt. Got stitches again. My dad whipped my ass when he got home.

I used to fall down everytime I caught a football. My dad took me to a field with a bunch of broken glass and construction waste. He threw me the ball, and when I fell down I cut my arm open on half of a 7-UP bottle. I got stitches.

When I was a boy I waded in a little creek not far from my house. I stepped on a rusty nail that went well into my foot. I got a tetanus shot.

When I was a boy my brother and I went sledding down the biggest, steepest hill in town. The hill was covered in large stones and small crevices. We flipped and a large part of the sled stabbed me in the leg. I walked around for two more hours sledding, until I went home, and my parents took me to the ER, where they removed the blood clots from my stab wound and sewed me up.

I had friend in high school who lost his leg when he clipped a highway post while riding his motorcycle.

I had another high school friend die when he accidentally let a chainsaw drop onto his leg and rip out his femoral artery.

I cut my head open and chipped teeth several times playing racquetball as a kid. I would swing too fast at balls coming at my head.

I had a friend break his lower leg running in a yard at night playing hide and seek. He clipped a wire that was supporting a small tree.

When I was a boy a good friend got permanent brain damage when another boy threw a rock just horsing around at a baseball game. The rock caved in the side of my friend's skull.

As a boy, I brought home snakes almost daily. I had boxes of snakes in my garage. I would only keep them a few days. I had lizards and horned toads too. My mom never liked me keeping poisonous snakes.

As a boy, I used to hike with freinds down to a pond about a half mile from my home. We would fish sometimes, even though there was nothing to catch in the pond. I got hooked a few times.

Playing "Capture the Flag" in the dark, I ran straight into a barbed wire fence at full speed. Just got some cuts all along my abdomen and arms. Nothing too deep.

I rolled off the top bunk one time as a boy, and I fell on a small children's record player. I had a bruise the size of an LP on my hip for about six weeks. Nothing broke.

I smoked tree branches at a Boy Scout camp out, and cooked all my food the first night. I went hungry for about a day and a half, and spent much of the time wet because it was winter and I had flipped all the canoes with some friends after we emptied all the fire extinguishers in the whole camp.

I never went hunting. I never wanted to kill anything.

I watched bits and pieces of that video. I knew what the guy was trying to say after a minute. The real problem with the world today is people think they have to go to class or a lecture to learn those ideas.

Just go live. I been doing it since I was a kid.

Comment #215 - Posted by: Texas Mark at September 17, 2008 4:47 PM

4 x 400 meter runs 1:31, 1:26, 1:32, 1:29

6 min run @ .60 tempo = .81 mile. Reasonable pace, hard but too difficult.

A 6 minute mile isn't too far in the future.

Comment #216 - Posted by: Kelly Moore F/45/5'/114# at September 17, 2008 4:49 PM

#43 Gibbo

Funny guy! You know it HAS been awhile since I took geography, but don't assume ALL of us "Down South" resemble "The Deliverance". BTW how's that gun control thing workin' out for those "down under", as far as murder and violence? Yeah, that's what I thought.

Jay, you may well know where it is but clearly know sweet FA about it. Enjoy polishing your pistol mate.

Comment #217 - Posted by: Gibbo at September 17, 2008 4:54 PM


as rx'd - 25:28

Comment #218 - Posted by: Jeff H at September 17, 2008 5:19 PM


Active recovery (that I'll later regret)....

26:48 3mi run.

Comment #219 - Posted by: Jeff H at September 17, 2008 5:21 PM


Comment #220 - Posted by: @7200ftWAM at September 17, 2008 5:45 PM

Did Fran (chest to bar) 5:32

rested 10 Minutes

Did the Deadlift Burpee wod from the games 7:35(PR)

Comment #221 - Posted by: JC Veggie M/32/175/5'10" at September 17, 2008 5:47 PM

made up the fran from monday

Ben: as rx'd 3:21
Wendi: as rx'd (women weight) 8:15
Stephanie: subbed jumping pull ups 5:08

Greenville, Sc

Comment #222 - Posted by: team gvegas at September 17, 2008 5:55 PM

played some baseball after work tonight for about an hour. Good stretch to just hit a few balls and play catch. Today was well deserved im starting to go harder and harder everyday

Can't wait for tomorrow though, w.e it brings.

Comment #223 - Posted by: Rob Varley at September 17, 2008 5:56 PM

did Fran a few days late
time: 6:40
my first time was 11:35 a couple months back

almost a 5 minute improvement!!

Comment #224 - Posted by: sonny 19/m/5'9"/170 at September 17, 2008 6:00 PM

Reno_Ty 208

Very good point. One value they surely died for was the rule of law. It was a hasty oversight to leave it of the "list."

Universal suffrage, rule of law, gun ownership, property rights, free speech, freedom of religion, - which of these things can you subtract most easily from this grouping and maintain a modern liberal democracy?

How many Afghani men owned a gun under the Taliban? How many could speak, think, worship, vote freely?

Admittedly, the Swiss rival or exceed per capita gun ownership and have all of the values I grouped together.

So guns don't make the values impossible, and they don't make them inevitable.

My point is that the rate of gun ownership is not a factor that pushes a nation toward or against liberty etc. And, you'd have a hard time taking any of those other values out of the list without seriously undermining the rest. The rest are nearly a package deal. Gun ownership isn't in that package. It is in or out of the list that applies to a given nation because of the particular history of that given nation. And Reno_Ty, you are right in that because gun ownership is part of the history and law of the US, to pull it out without due process undermines one of the other values, the rule of law.

Since it isn't integral to the list, I don't think it is what American men and women fight for in the same way as they fight for the other things in the Bill of Rights.

Comment #225 - Posted by: Prole at September 17, 2008 6:00 PM


Not sure what the point of your comments were except that I don't live in your country or share the values of your fine gov't on the private ownership of guns. Either way, you are correct. And funny thing, I did just field strip my Sig P229 40 cal for cleaning from the 200 rd I ran through it several days ago. Gotta love America!!
Cheers friend.

Comment #226 - Posted by: Jay M. in SC at September 17, 2008 6:30 PM


Holy Schnikee! He clearly saw this coming! This finance industry mess we have going on right now will be the worst thing to happen in this country since the depression and "ave Joe" is clueless. There are dominoes that are going to fall (globally and domestically) that we don't even know are in the stack. I can't wait until this is coupled with the poorly scienced anthropogenic global warming crap and you will see a major financial catastrophe fo rthe US within 2 years. We'll pull out of it, but man, is it gonna hurt!

Good post, Bud...thanks!

Comment #227 - Posted by: bill m/49/212/72" at September 17, 2008 6:31 PM

Three things..

1) I am in love with Nicole and take offense to any others who feel the same.

2) I'm glad there is a constitution to protect my God Given right to defend myself with firearms or any other means without depending upon someone else (i.e. the government)to do it for me..

3) I'm in love with Nicole.. Call be babe! :)

Comment #228 - Posted by: Leftridge at September 17, 2008 6:34 PM


Comment #229 - Posted by: DAP at September 17, 2008 6:39 PM

350m swim.
8min 4sec.

Comment #230 - Posted by: Steve 38/6'3"/250/ from CFSD at September 17, 2008 7:09 PM

I believe Jay was referring to the sharp spike in violence in Australia after they banned private ownership of most guns in 1996. 12 months afterwards , homicides were up 3.2%, assaults up 8.6%, armed robberies up 44 %, in the state of Victoria, the rate of homicides with firearms were up 300 percent. In the 25 years before the gun ban, violence had been dropping steadily, and... I'll stop listing there. I'm just pointing out what he was likely referring to, that's all.

And bkw-
Each post of yours is filled with blanket statements such as referring to the education system in SC, and this last one where you ramble on with generalities about hicks and say
"Besides that, there are people in our society who ALWAYS abuse the freedoms given to the devestation of or society."
with big capital letters. Wow! How.....vague. How very insistent and without any real basis.

Comment #231 - Posted by: DustyRgr76 at September 18, 2008 12:28 AM

Jay, I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed man, happy polishing.
and dustyrgr (great tag)thanks for your use of google, you are truly a genius of the highest order

Comment #232 - Posted by: Gibbo at September 18, 2008 1:25 AM

You can't compare guns to narcotics, they aren't in the same category. If a bad guy comes into your home with a needle to get your whole family high, you can still kick his ass. But if he comes into your home with a gun to kill everyone, then you'd better have something that can shoot back! I know, this COULD NEVER EVER HAPPEN TO YOU, but please, really and truly put your political views aside aside and think about it. What if, in some crazy, gun-loving alternate universe, this happens to your family? What if you were the only one left alive? How would you feel then? Would you still believe that "normal" people shouldn't be allowed to have guns in their home to DEFEND themselves? The unfortunate and sad fact is that this is not something that will only happen in an alternate universe, it happens EVERY DAY across the country, in cities big and small, violent and peaceful. I pray that you are never faced with that fact, but you owe it to your family to really and truly consider the possibility that one day it could happen to you and yours. How will you defend your family against a gun-wielding lunatic? Are you going to talk him down, negotiate with him, convince him that he doesn't want to rape and kill your family?

Next, why not implement a much more stringent licensing policy that requires anyone that intends to be in possession a gun to go through a rigorous (4-days maybe), intensive, pass-or-fail gun control course for whichever type of weapon they intend to use. To me, this is a good compromise. No one looses their constitutionally granted rights, and we would then at least know that everyone that owns a gun/rifle/shotgun has a decent amount of training and knowledge. This has been proven to work in countries like Canada and even here in the good ole U S of A. Look at state-issued Concealed Carry Permits (CCW): less than one percent of the crimes committed with a handgun is perpetrated by someone with a CCW. Things that make you go hmmmmmmm. Guns aren't evil or bad. People with evil intentions or without proper training and knowledge are.

To say that an 8-hour course is inadequate is correct, but what about life-long learning started as a child? You still haven't explained why you feel that teaching children how to handle a firearm is irresponsible. Have you ever handled or fired a gun? What is so scary to you about supervised instruction? Guns don't just shot themselves, a kid won't shoot himself with his mother or father (who is trained and competent) watching over him.

I would love to hear a response on these issues since you've avoided them thus far. You said earlier that you think that some of the pro-gun posters are afraid. I think that you are the one that is afraid, I think that you have an unreasonable fear of guns. I think that you've probably never fired a gun in your entire life. You'll say you have, and this is the internet, so you can do that. But can you put 10 out of 10 inside the 5-ring on a silhouette? Are you proficient enough to understand your own argument? I highly doubt it.

Comment #233 - Posted by: Alex Europa at September 18, 2008 1:51 AM

Well google is a tool- good for searching up the specifics of things you already know about, or general information about what you don't. I'm not on here casting random insults at people and those of their 'kind', as seems to be alot today.

Comment #234 - Posted by: DustyRgr76 at September 18, 2008 4:38 AM

"The story is simple: we love our gym. Our little One World sign is no different than wearing a t-shirt with One World printed on the front. We are the complete opposite of a gang. Our name says it all: It's ONE WORLD. All of us are living in it, and everyone is equal. :-)"

Why are you the opposite of a gang?
Isn't the mentality behind flashing a sign showing that you are part of a group?

Sure street gangs use guns, threats of physical violence and deal with large amounts of illegal drugs, but other than that, isn't a gang just a group with a common allegiance.

more on White Chicks and Gang Signs below:

Just something to ponder.

Comment #235 - Posted by: Bryan at September 18, 2008 5:17 AM

I think we're seeing a "clash of cultures" here.

In a country with liberal gun-ownership laws like the US, people would argue that there is a strong argument for educating kids how to use guns because there's a strong liklihood the kids are going to come across guns.

In a country with less liberal private gun-ownership laws, people wouldn't make that argument. Some countries don't even arm their police. Typically, gun crime is far more rare in those countries than it is in the US. (Google the stats yourselves - I'm at work!) So the reference points for people are very different.

Interestingly for me, the arguments about the inalienable rights to protect oneself from those who would do you wrong is very deep in the US psyche. Yet many on the gun ownership side of this debate would also argue that only certain countries should have access to tactical nuclear weapons. So the argument isn't one that transposes into the international arena.

I'm not trying to be controversial with the above, it's just a thought that occurs to me.

The rest day article was the best in ages. More, please.


Comment #236 - Posted by: J1 at September 18, 2008 5:29 AM


Agree and disagree with you, but you can make a stronger argument if you lose the condescending, I'm better than all of you tone. Odds are, you are not the most well-educated person on this board, you may not even reach the top 50%. Attend a Certification and you'll find that the majority of the CrossFit nation is renaissance men and women...and that you are average at best.

Comment #237 - Posted by: Dan - New Hope at September 18, 2008 5:50 AM

I enjoyed this presentation. I grew up camping and always, always enjoyed helping my dad make a big raoaring fire in our fireplace. I really don't want to buy a house with only a gas fireplace. I want a real FIRE PLACE where actual FIRE exists.
I agree that children are capable of a lot more than we usually allow them for safety sake. I think that the toys and warnings and protective wrpping and what not is rediculous in general. What ever happened to common sense and using your head.
I am a parent of a 2 1/2 year old girl and a 1 yr. 5 month son. They are constantly doing things that we didn't think they could. It's usually us that have to push ourselves to be a little more daring with them. Kids don't scare too easily. I work with my daughter in the kitchen a lot and yes, she's learning with REAL tools like peelers, and knives and what not... but I'm right there to watch and to show her. I don't hand her a knive and say good luck. I think another real big part of all of this is independance, self reliance, confidence as well as a vantage point of I can do that instead of please someone help me with this or that.
Good article/ post.
Anton Gross

Comment #238 - Posted by: Anton at September 18, 2008 7:02 AM

"the majority of Crossfit Nation is renaissance men and women..."

Gotta love someone professing their intellectual superiority in substandard grammar.

BKMs point is valid- Ive been a gun owner, learned to shoot when I was 8 and purchased a Glock after being hospitalised and harassed by a neighborhood gang. When they came rolling around again (they knew I was a musician and carried cash after club dates) we had the come to jesus meeting- no police involved - and I never had a problem again- they didnt know that I got rid of it immediately afterwards- they just knew that. I would have shot one of them in a Nola minute. I hated to play tough- using all those racial expletives so they would think I was a real bubba etc- it was scary for me- but my economy was based on late night club dates and I needed that perception to be in the air- I didnt feel I had a choice but to be as scary to them as possible.
My belief : if there is a situation with one gun- someone may get shot- if there is one with more than one gun- someone will get shot.
Some people need guns for protection ( I did) some people need guns just because they are scaredy cats- like the suburbanites with visions of home invasions dancing in their head- get real.
I got one because I was scared of 5 teens who beat me once to get my money (they didnt - but I lost a good pint of guiness defending myself) and were bent on coming back for more- as per Jay M's point- calling cops was not an option- it happens too fast for police to do any good.
Ive been in several situations where my opponent had a gun and I didnt- in each of those cases I either ran like hell or talked my way out of it.
Lucky- sure- but I is a renaissance crossfitter so I made due.

My grandma went senile a couple of years back- we couldnt help her because she was paranoid - and armed- and didnt recognize any of us- she did not need her guns. We have them now- but she could have easily walked out of her house on some crazy rampage and shot her neighbors or passer by. It was a scary, helpless time for the family.
Another relative developed mental illness- he was institutionalised- a week after he got out of the hospital he got it in his head that he 'needed' a rifle for 'protection'
now he is armed- what the hell are we supposed to do if he has another bi polar episode? I would love to find the dealer who sold him that and just let him know what he did.

Im glad that I have the option to own a gun-Ill take any freedom I can get. Im happier that I dont inherently feel the need. Im not too proud to run,not too scared to fight, and not too angry to be startin anything.
I think the process of ownership of a gun is way too easy- which is BKMs point as well. It bears consideration. mental illness- as per my experience is something that should be noted when people buy guns, also age, sorry to the seniors- but if youre over 72 you have no business owning a gun, or being president for that matter- unless of course youre running with a beauty queen... that makes it better right?

Of course there is merit to both sides of the issue.

Texas Mark speaks for me insofar as the video is concerned- it was good- but wholly superfluous in my household.
Ill teach my boys how to shoot at a range- when they are in 5th or 6th grade, then if they want a gun they can buy one with their own money- after they move out of my house.

Comment #239 - Posted by: james at September 18, 2008 7:08 AM


as smart as you are, you should have been able to surmise that I was referring to everyone else at the Cert...and Microsoft failed me on that one...I would never submit a post without spell and grammer check knowing that people as perfect as you are out there.

Comment #240 - Posted by: Dan - New Hope at September 18, 2008 7:47 AM

"The majority...ARE renaissance men and women."

"The majority...IS COMPRISED OF renaissance men and women."

"The majority...ARE COMPRISED OF renaissance men and women."

All three are technically correct due to the inexact numerative value of the word "majority" in common usage, coupled with the existence of a plural form of the word.

With all of the abysmal grammar and the wanton abuse of the conjugation of the verb "to be", especially as it pertains to singular and plural usage, this is a rather tricky and technical example to choose to call out. Subtle ad hominem is still ad hominem and always detracts from the interchange of ideas.

"...I is a renaissance crossfitter..." isn't even the littlest bit funny.

Comment #241 - Posted by: bingo at September 18, 2008 8:13 AM

BINGO! Bingo.

just as I thought.

James, is you out there?

Comment #242 - Posted by: Dan - New Hope at September 18, 2008 10:02 AM

Bingo- I dont care for ad hominem either- but love Satire- that one begged for it. Puffery always does.

Comment #243 - Posted by: james at September 18, 2008 10:20 AM

Here I are Dan!!! Lets move on from this contrarian grammarian mode. it was a joke aight?!!

the point is- give the kids some fire and knives and the world will just be better dang it....

Comment #244 - Posted by: james at September 18, 2008 10:23 AM


Thank you!

I absolutely agree with you, and LOUDLY applaud that you are writing letters to them for future reading. What awesome seeds to plant... Keep it up!


Comment #245 - Posted by: Esse Quam Videri at September 18, 2008 10:51 AM

ran about 9km, hilly trail and fartlek

Comment #246 - Posted by: Capt_Phil/m_48_181/France at September 18, 2008 12:43 PM


Again all you do is hurl insults when you don't really even know me or my level of wit! Thank you Dustygr for pointing out to Mr. Gibbo the obvious point I was making to SOMEONE ELSE on this page when he so rudely injected. As for Aussie's I have no beef, as for the gun ban, well you are a democracy so go deal with it. And hell yeah I'll keep cleaning my pistols, they are much more effective that way!

Comment #247 - Posted by: Jay M. in SC at September 18, 2008 2:04 PM

In response to this very uninformed statement:

"some people need guns just because they are scaredy cats- like the suburbanites with visions of home invasions dancing in their head- get real."

Read through these stories and tell me having a gun in your possession wouldn't come in handy if one of these people shows up at your house:,2933,412104,00.html,2933,418881,00.html

As you're being bludgeoned to death with a hammer, I doubt you'll be making snarky remarks about how paranoid people are. Like I said before, my father was a homicide detective in a bad area of town. The number of murders, rapes, and other atrocities that don't make it on the evening news is staggering. It is a DAMNED scary world out there and your "West Side Story" of a few punks trying to beat you up for your money doesn't even scratch the surface of what goes on daily. There are very bad people, and they interact daily with good people, in their residences.

For the record, I don't own a gun, but I also don't roll my eyes at those who choose to.

Comment #248 - Posted by: Reno_Ty at September 18, 2008 3:12 PM

The "450" WOD.

For time.
Run 450m (once around block)
50 95lb back squats
Row 500m
50 95lb back squats
Run 450m

14:22. As Rx'd. Finally got Filerito. Feels good.

Comment #249 - Posted by: Fiman M/26/5'11'/211.5 at September 18, 2008 5:28 PM

Dan-New Hope

Whether you agree and/or disagree with my positions on gun control is irrelevent to their validity. I have been to a CrossFit Cert, and am very impressed with the quality of citizens attracted here, but you have no idea what my level of education is and I fail to see the relevance of that to the matter at hand. You would likely be surprised by my profession. I'm quite certain the majority of "gun rights advocates" are not exactly elite level academicians, at least my experience would prove otherwise. As far as my level of condescension, have you read the posts on here from the past few rest days, I would argue that my level of condescension is mild relative to them.

Alex Europa

You make the strongest and most compelling (and civil) argument for home protection with firearms yet. I would interject that the narcotics analogy was limited to both being tools that have a role when used by trained professional, but certainly dangerous and popularly abused when not. I have used hunting rifles, 30-06, 270, and 308; shotguns, and a Ruger 22 cal target pistol only. I do currently own a Browning A-bolt 270 with a Leopold Scope, and a Benelli Superblack Eagle II camo 12 ga for hunting expeditions. I usualy harvest 6-8 Whitetail Deer, 40-50 Doves, 10-12 Mallards, 2-3 Eastern Wild Turkey, and 3-4 hogs per year. I would love to have a 454 Casull for pistol hunting wild hogs. I would say my level of marksmanship is above average, but fail to see the relevance of that to the strength of my position on gun control. As I mentioned, I have NO problem with guns for hunting animals, but really have issues with every citizen regardless of mental state or personality owning guns that are designed to take human life. My main argument which was germane to todays video was I think it is innapropriate to introduce guns to children. They don't possess the judgement to make sound decisions when parental supervision is not available and they encounter a firearm. You may disagree and thats ok, just think about both sides before judging me as a coward or a Communist. I think those people who get so offended by my position are afraid that any legislation to limit firearms at all will lead to complete ban of private ownership as in Australia. I did not mean that they are fearful as James did.


I also disagree with Jay M's views but at least you could explain your reasons for being derogatory. Insults without dialogue serve no purpose and actually make you look quite juvenile. He may be a "rambo want-to-be" but at least he has class and intellect.

Comment #250 - Posted by: bkm at September 18, 2008 6:33 PM


Thanks for clarifying your position and experience, as well as remaining civil. I think we are all in agreement here that criminals and the mentally incompetent should not be allowed access to firearms. Ownership, carry and use should be regulated in some reasonable way, just as our other basic freedoms have reasonable limitations.

As for teaching kids about guns, it should be entirely a personal choice, and depend on the parent's comfort with the subject, the child's maturity and any applicable laws. As was afore mentioned, nobody is advocating opening the heavens and raining guns down for everybody, nor was anybody encouraging toddlers to play with guns. I think we all would agree that either of these two things are absurd.

I don't think that any of us would argue that children should have some exposure dangerous subjects, like fire, knives, driving, alcohol, and even firearms. The amount and type of exposure to these things is based, again, on the parent's comfort, child's maturity and applicable laws. That exposure could come in the form of hands-on experience, or second-hand experience. Depending on the subject, maybe the kid could read a book, take a class, or maybe even *gasp* talk to their parents.

The point is that parents have, and should have, the right to raise their children as they see fit. If a parent wants to let his kid drive the family car, as long as they're not breaking the vehicle code or endangering others, why not? If a parent want to teach their kids gun safety by having the kid shoot a pumpkin and saying "that is what the gun will do to you," then so much the better. But the range of parent comfort levels and education, and maturity of the child are so variable that appropriate legislation dictating precisely what a parent can and cannot teach their child is an exercise in absurdity.

As for using guns to kill people, any moral man will tell you that murder is wrong. However, using lethal force is justified in some situations. This is why police officers carry firearms. If you don't want to use a gun to defend yourself or your family, then that is your moral choice. However, I, and many others, would rather be judged by 12 than carried by six. Your rights to not use lethal force in self defense should not override my rights to do so; that is, it is generally inappropriate to push your sense of right and wrong onto others.

Gibbo: stop being a jerk, man. Your insulting language forfeits any claim you might make to an intellectual or moral high ground in this discussion.

Everybody else:
Fun rest day topic. Jay, way to go, railroading a simple and fun topic into a controversial one. =)
Thanks for the great discussion, everybody. Looking forward to next time.

Comment #251 - Posted by: Nick Wise at September 18, 2008 7:10 PM


Honestly dude, I had no idea teaching my daughters to use firearms would be such a firestorm, especially on this site. Oh well, as I said, Daddy won't be there in every situation and I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't prepare them for life, the good and bad. BKM came out of no where at me and then Gibbo starts with the insults. Man I'm just going to take my toys and go play elsewhere, hahaha. Seems you and I are landing on the same side of the issues lately. Maybe you're educating me after all, LOL.


Thanks, I think. You know I did want to be Rambo, but alas, I have short blonde hair and really don't look so good with a headband. Good to see such a "lefty" actually harvesting wildlife, I bet you're really a cool dude, apart from wanting to disarm me. I promise I won't miss another dose of Lithium again if I at least get to keep my HK .45! haha

Comment #252 - Posted by: Jay M. in SC at September 18, 2008 7:44 PM

im in love with nicole carroll.

Comment #253 - Posted by: matt 25/5'7"/155 at September 18, 2008 11:05 PM

Reno- I would make snarky comments from my grave. You dont know me or my life - lets see how many bars of west side story you can squeeze out with a five inch slit in your skull ( I could barely keep running )
I saw a 13 year old boy shot in the head off of his bike- dead.I was standing there when a neighbor lady stabbed her sister in law with a screwdriver in the chest, Ive been mugged 4 times- hospitalised twice. In fact the two times I didnt go to the hospital was when guns were involved (perhaps inadvertanly making your point?) . And thats not counting the times avoiding getting mugged by running my ass off - or in one case making a snarky comment ( "aww you dont want to shoot no one at christmas do ya?"- he let me go!)
I chased and caught one mugger who had hit an old lady in my neighborhood and beat his head with the broom I was using to sweep the steps- there were no cops around to help. I lost her money because his friends started chasing me.
Ive had bricks/rocks put upside my head in two occasions- both involving gangs of kids- 16 years olds. Ive been burglarized several times- one time it made me so mad- I scoured the hood to find my stuff- and I stole it back- I was terrified they were going to catch me in their backyard- Ive never actually seen West Side Story- ( I hate musicals) but I get the reference- and its not me.

My point on suburban gun owners is valid- Ive run into all kinds of people living high on the hog in low crime areas who go on and on about 'protecting themselves"
I think if I can make it through all of that without a gun (except that brief two/three weeks) some dude in a subdivision should be fine with an alarm system and some pepper spray. If they want guns fine- but my maxim holds- if two guns are involved there will be death- and thats why I dont own one- I have other resources at my disposal- no problem if you live in a tough place ( I no longer do) but in the burbs? please...its just paranoid.

Comment #254 - Posted by: james at September 19, 2008 6:40 AM


Don't be so quick to judge. The argument from personal experience is usually false, since it is so limited. It sucks for you that you've seen a lot of criminal activity in your neck of the woods, but it was your choice not to arm yourself and/or prepare to defend yourself. You shouldn't condem others for not wanting to live how you have.

Paranoia is an exaggerated fear without basis of facts. The facts are that violent crimes happen every day, in every city. Knowing this and preparing for it is not paranoia, it is preparation. And fortune favors the prepared.

That suburbanites do not need protection because they don't live in the 'ghetto' is both a naieve and an arrogant suggestion. By your rational, cops who work in beats with low instances of crime should not carry guns. And soldiers who are on military bases in friendly countries (or our own) should not need weapons of any sort. This is nonsense. Crimes, violent crimes, can and do happen anywhere to anybody.

The facts are that a prepared person is less likely to have a crime committed to them, less likely to suffer adverse effects if they are the victim of a crime, and more likely to be a benefit to society by preventing or deterring crimes or by assisting the justice system.

Once again, it's personal choice. You don't want to own a gun, you don't have to and I'm not going to force you to. I respect your rights to not own a gun. But you should not condem others for wanting to have the right to defend themselves with firearms, even if you think that they could defend themselves better without them. We're just asking for some respect for our choices, even if you don't agree and don't want to make the same choices.

Comment #255 - Posted by: Nick Wise at September 19, 2008 9:34 AM

Sounds to me like you are an extremely lucky guy :-)
I recommend buying lottery tickets. This has been a great discussion. If Jay M. in SC has anything to say about it, I'm sure we'll be talking about guns again soon :-)

As always, you've expressed your points elegantly without being insulting. That's admirable.

Gibbo... sigh... never mind.

Sorry you took such a beating. But you're a crossfitter, so you can take it and go again!

You is good at grammar.

Comment #256 - Posted by: Reno_Ty at September 19, 2008 2:53 PM


Serious character flaw...think there might be some medicine for it...

Comment #257 - Posted by: bingo at September 19, 2008 7:30 PM

' Army and Police shouldnt carry guns.'.. uh,,,, no.
That doesnt follow from anything I said. That and your opinion of personal experience sound idiosyncratic.

I dont care who has guns or why - as long as your not crazy or irresponsible....

Reno - luck is a bitch.

Comment #258 - Posted by: james at September 19, 2008 7:56 PM

Missed most of this one, but did want to add a few points.

First, and most importantly, the philosophical importance of guns in America.

What needs to be understood is that our system of government, in actual design and underlying principle, is "Government of the People, by the People, for the People." Our Constitution reads "We the People, in order to form a more perfect Union. . .".

Our system of government is self government. We are all collectively responsible both for ourselves and for the well being of our nation as a whole. For that reason, we are all in theory soldiers and policemen, even though we may not be appointed to those roles, just in the way that all Marines are combat soldiers, even though their role at any given time may place them far from the battlefield.

Our Founding Fathers never intended a standing army. They feared the power it might obtain, and in the early years were particularly fearful that Alexander Hamilton--who idolized Julius Caesar--might yet decide to appoint himself President for life (this was during Adam's tenure).

Thus, if you look at our pattern of wars up to the 20th Century, we would moblize for war, then demobilize, preserving only a skeleton structure of professionals.

In intervening periods, the thought was that if a sudden emergency arose, the citizens could defend themselves. A "militia" would simply be the adults of an area, organized to defend against, say, Indian attacks. Since life was unpredictable--dangerous at times--the absolute right of individual citizens to prepare themselves for self and collective defense was understood to be a matter of common sense and an ineluctably necessary extension of the capacity and duty of self government.

That we now have a standing army, and a uniformed National Guard in no way changes this. Self government and self defense is still understood to be the right and duty of all Americans, and if you look at a disaster like Katrina--where the local governments failed entirely in their responsibilities--it is very simply the case that anyone who was entirely dependent on others to defend and protect them was in serious trouble. Our Founders very specifically wanted to avoid that sort of situation, and for that reason made gun owndership a right on par with the freedom of speech, and the freedom to practice ones religion in public without molestation.

I saw some statistics on suicides. To be clear, are you against suicide, or against making it easier? Are you saying suicide is morally wrong? If so, upon what basis are you saying that, and are you saying that assisted suicide is also wrong? If suicide is not morally wrong, why do you care?

As I see it, the underlying issue, as always, is that guns are a counterpoint to large government. They symbolize the anti-autocratic impulse of true liberals (I have toyed with using the word "paleoliberal, for someone who supports the maximally attainable freedom sustainable in an heterogeneous society; the word "libertarian" is broken)

All leftists, as a matter of being who they are, are conformists, who at the end of the day want to relinquish the duty of self government, and be told what to do. Freedom is a burden. If you vote Republican, you are voting for someone who is not going to vote in Congress, in general, to protect you from the consequences of your mistakes. He or she is not going to spend all day figuring out how to make your life easier, and how to mollycoddle you. He or she WILL, however, spend all day figuring out how to ensure that responsible people are allowed to spend their days living the lives of their choosing, as free as possible from external molestation.

I'm speaking, of course, of an idealized Republican. What I actually see differs considerably.

Comment #259 - Posted by: Barry Cooper at September 20, 2008 5:36 AM

Couple more points I forgot.

I wonder if the parents of the Columbine kids taught them to use guns? My thought is no. A great deal of their shooting practice was apparently in video games of the sort Grossman talks about.

We didn't have school shootings fifty years ago. Has gun ownership increased? I think not. What has increased is the ubiquity of means for the sytemic desensitization of our children, particularly with regard to empathy.

With regard to the actual topic of the day, it's funny that we just had a bunch of power outages around here, and I was up in Dayton, and they played Hank Jr.'s "A Country Boy can survive". It made me think of the most "country" dude I know, that I call Mountain Man John because he shaves his beard once a year whether it needs it or not. I figured he was having the time of his life, and when I ran into him, I found out I was right. He had a massive generator, and he had everything in his house working for the entire 3 day duration fo the blackout.

You can't look at this topic, and not understand there is a profound difference the way most people grow up in the country, and how they grow up in the city. Further, if you look at the Red/Blue demographics, what you will see is that "city people" tend to vote Democrat, and "country people" tend to vote Republican. In many respects, if you feel a sense of dependence, you vote Democrat. If you feel self reliant, you vote Republican.

This is why Obama was complaining about people "clinging" to "guns and religion".

Speaking of which, I asked somebody the other day a question which I thought interesting. How many of you who support Obama believe that he believes that Jesus Christ was the one and only begotten Son of God, was persecuted and died for our sins, that he rose from the dead, and awaits faithful Christians in heaven?

I can't see him believing that for a second. Not a second. He is purely, 100%, a cunning political opportunist.

I will add, I am not commenting at all on the content of that faith, merely that Obama is head to toe a uberleftists, and none of them believe that Jesus is anything other than an excuse for socialism.

Comment #260 - Posted by: Barry Cooper at September 20, 2008 5:51 AM

I like the term Paleoliberal - it is somehow apt.

I disagree completely that leftist are conformist any more than people of the right - conformity is an attitude that can attatch itself to any political philosophy depending upon the issue. Either persuasion can have that sensibility shape policy on a dime.

it is appropriate that your vision is of an idealized Republican- especially since Republicans are and have actively promoted a culture of UNaccountability for irresponsible behaviour in the financial (as well as other) industries and are presiding over the most massive Nationalisation of our banking industry ever.
It is interesting that all of this is happening during the term of Prescott Bushes grandson- the two seem to be carrying on similar missions - - privatize great profits- ensuring , socialize great losses. There is a middle way. And it is not to be found in the philosophies of Free Trade or the type of corporatism that promotes inefficient use of resources to concentrate wealth in the hands of the few at the expense of the country.

The word "dependance" in the fourth paragraph could be changed to "interdependance" for a more accuracy.
Everyone is dependant on someone or something- liberal policies acknowledge that in policy- sometimes to excess - but often with great common sense.
It is a great Irony that many of the so called "self reliant" people of the red states typically benifet disproportionately from the tax dollars sent to the fed by the blue states.
The whole Idea of self reliance of is at best way more complicated when you follow the money funds the roads and hospitals and schools these supposedly rugged individualists avail themselves of.

Were Jesus alive today there is no doubt that he would shun association with all political parties - the same way he did when he is alive- and that, along with rebuking clergical excess is what got him killed.
I think claiming to know someones elses spiritual beliefs is a sin. I would refer you to the parable of the tax collector and the pharisee- it eloquently makes the same point.

Comment #261 - Posted by: james at September 20, 2008 6:21 AM

"Interdependency", as in "I depend on the govermnment, and they depend on my acquiesence?"

Returning to Mountain Man John, it's far from clear to me that he depends on anything but hard work. His tax reform proposal was that only the first forty hours of work be taxable. I would support that.

You talk about the housing crisis as if it resulted from anything other than relaxationh of lending guidelines, which were intended to increase home ownership. There was, in my understanding, a long term insistence--particularly on the part of Democrats--to make it easier to own homes. The guidelines which enabled this debacle were, as is always the case with Democrats, well intended.

Hve to run, but I should be back. I'm all about target rich environments.

Comment #262 - Posted by: Barry Cooper at September 20, 2008 6:54 AM

Came back to get something. Drive by thought:

If the problem is subprime mortgages, I wonder how many of them are in formerly "redlined" areas? Do you think this is going to get airplay? Do you all think the foreclosures are distributed randomly?

I don't honestly know. It would be interesting to find out. I suspect this is one of those things that would be politically incorrect to talk about, but since I'm speculating, I will admit in advance I may well be wrong.

Comment #263 - Posted by: Barry Cooper at September 20, 2008 7:08 AM

By pure happenstance I found a book of quotes from George Washington today that I had to buy. Here is one good quote:

"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference--they deserve a place of honor with all that is good."

Comment #264 - Posted by: Barry Cooper at September 20, 2008 5:50 PM

Couple more:

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable support. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars."

"Arbitrary power is most easily established on the ruins of liberty abused to licentiousness."

"Happiness and moral duty are inseperably connected."

"I am sure that never was a people, who had more reason to acknowledge Divine interposition in their affairs, then those of the United States; and I should be pained to believe that they have forgotten that agency, which was so often manifested during our Revolution, or that they failed to consider the omnipotence of that God who is alone able to protect them."

"As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who CONDUCT THEMSELVES AS WORTHY MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNITY (emphasis mine) are equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope ever to see Americans among the foremost nations of justice and liberality."

Comment #265 - Posted by: Barry Cooper at September 20, 2008 6:16 PM

that is one definition of interdependance- I was more referring to the several other ways that could be expressed.

Mountain Man John has it right in many ways- I dont extend that philosphy to money earned through interest. Once money begins making money, the archetypes ( like Mt Man John) we take comfort in fade in relevance to understanding the problem.
I find it interesting that funds organized around religious values- eg the Sharia Muslim funds and the Christian investing funds arent taking a bath right now.

Obama is correct to hit McCain on his deregulation side- like it or not this is some proof that government should be an active force in monitoring market behaviour- there always needs to be someone at the table without an overt self interest. Its messy, and often problematic in the short term- but the alternatives - as we are seeing- are worse. Talk of liberty is great and warm and fuzzy- but when big money comes in the door- ethics often go out the window.

Relaxing of standards may or may not be a democrat/ republican creation- I dont know- I think of it as a simple ethical problem having to do with borrowers and lenders and particularly having to do with how the derivative markets were being handled- along with a dose of random market forces- but mostly personal inattentiveness or lack of values.
I have an ARM - but we played out the worst scenarios on paper first and went in with open eyes- I dont forsee a problem- and dont see how anyone borrowing money using such an instrument could not have done the same thing. My ARM is working for me- but only because I look at loans as something to be avoided or paid off as a priority.

Therefore I think your emphasis on values is appropriate- principled people reaching very different conclusions on our major issues usually end up either on the same pagemy at some point - or they effect the workable compromises.

My basic issue with my country is that we seem to have an oligarchy in place that game the system at a great profit then asks the middle class and working class to bail them out- either through funding their wars with life or tax dollars

Comment #266 - Posted by: james at September 21, 2008 4:18 AM

John McCain is not against regulation. In fact, he is calling for the head of the SEC for not doing his job, which was oversight.

Obama wants to increase the taxes on dividend income dramatically, which is a typical "soak the rich" program, but one which always backfires, because if you punish investment you get--drum roll please--less investment. What direction is the money flowing in Venezuela?

If you add, in Obama's case, massive new spending on Universal Healthcare, "Global Warming" remediation, and a war in Afghanistan we can't walk away from, you have on the one side decreased economic vitality, and on the other massive spending increases that can't be financed on the backs of the "rich" alone without causing a massive capital flight.

You have there a recipe for economic catastrophe.

Which is probably what he wants. Certainly he knows it won't apply to him. No leftist would be a leftist if they believed that their own policies applied to them. If Tim Robbins wants to cry about the poor, he should give all him money to charity and go live in a hut somewhere. You won't, ever, see this happen. Lattes cost too much.

Comment #267 - Posted by: Barry Cooper at September 21, 2008 4:38 AM

Im afraid McCain is against regulation- youll find the breaking news is that half of his transition team have been actively involved in and benifiting from working against regulation in the housing market- Timmons being the latest one brought to the fore.
Obama has had similar associations- though not as many.

Your second paragraph is demonstrably false- you get less investment when the enviroment for doing business is less secure- not just regulated- and a playing field with holes in it is less appealing than one with lots of boundaries.

What I support is rebalancing- nothing, absolutely nothing in the last eight years has been done on the backs of "the rich" (and we both know that we are being imprecise in that definition)
My point is that the capital flight has already been facilitated by
"free trade" there is no "place" to put capital- it is moved all the time - and thats not good for those of us fond of the nation state.

No one of any persuasion would be of that persuasion if they were truly tested- so I accept that crazy generalisation if you will generalize it furthur and just throw that out as a part of human nature. I think youll agree?

Comment #268 - Posted by: james at September 23, 2008 5:11 AM

children? sure I like 'em. boiled or fried?

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