August 20, 2008
"Makimba", CrossFit Kids - video [wmv] [mov]
Navy Wrestler Makimba Mimms claims permanent disability after kid's workout - [pdf]
Post thoughts to comments.
Posted by lauren at August 20, 2008 6:59 AM
Thats ridiculous.. and kind of pathetic. Its interesting that a doctor could point to that workout as the reason behind the injuries...and at the same time, its the Navy leadership that is speaking out against CrossFit. Nothing against the Navy guys out there
what does everybody here do for a living?
Right now Im working full time in a machine shop until college starts back up again.
I'm far from a Crossfit advocate but that is a ridiculous lawsuit.
I'm in the AF working aircraft developmental testing right now
i guess 5:18 wins because there's no such time as P:59.
Great workout kids!
Isn't filing frivolous lawsuits punishable under the UCMJ?
sounds like the girl in the pigtails could take down makimba.
Amazed that that workout caused rhabdo... in a wrestler!?!
Was he grossly overweight compared to his competition weight?
Hahahahaha he got schooled by a kids workout.
In all seriousness, there is an real question of actual cause here. It shouldn't be hard to show that the workout is doable by just about anyone without ill effects. This casts serious doubt that it was the workout that hurt him, and rather the fact that he was affected by an unknown and unknowable predisposition to rhabdo. The duty to provide reasonable care doesn't involve giving a friggin physical to everyone that walks through your door-a jury will see it was perfectly reasonable to assume a military man could handle something so easy. Waste of time.
im sorry but you must be a big p***y if that workout caused rhabo. I mean seriously dude was a navy wrestler and you want to tell me THAT workout caused him rhabo, lets get real.
interestingly +/- 98% of the lawsuits filed in the world are filed in the good old usa. not coincidentally, would anyone like to venture a guess as to what percentage of attorneys in the world practice in the united states?
make no mistake this a very important case to crossfit affiliates and athletes though as we all know what happens anytime a seemingly frivolous lawsuit awards ridiculous damages to the plaintiff. how many steaming hot cups of coffee resulted in "burned genitals" after the grandmother won millions from mcdonald's?
i would be willing to bet that more people are injured each year stepping off the curb than crossfitting.
I am an attorney (Trust/Wills).
#4: I'm an operations mgr for a large industrial corporation.
What a stupid lawsuit. Curious to see the result here.
So you're telling me all I have to do to get a workout named after me is sue? Awesome!
Great workout kids. A great example of how a workout can be executed safely even with the most novice clients when under the supervision of incredible trainers like the Martins and Cindi. Way to go CF Kids.
To other trainers, this is a good reminder to always put your clients in control. They know what they are feeling and you don't. Find that fine balance between pushing them and letting them be self limiting.
Point #28 - I am sure the plaintiff knew that he was doing a Crossfit workout, and I am sure he was interested in seeing how far he could push himself. As deeply ingrained into the military lifestyle as Crossfit is, is would be remarkable to suggest that the guy had no idea what he was in for.
Other points suggest he was in horrible shape for a military man. If you can hurt your lower back and legs bad enough to be hspitalized by doing 30 reps of 20-lb thrusters, air squats, and burpees, you should probably not be representing the United States armed forces...
I can understand the possibility of rhabdo doing any high-intensity workout, but how in the world could anyone think it would be worth suing the trainer for $500,000?? All the guy had to do was stop - or slow down.
Don't get me wrong...
I feel bad that the guy "blew a tire" on a workout, and had to spend time in the hospital; BUT for a military man (and an all-Navy wrestler) to SUE someone for a workout that kicked the snot out of him is absolutely unfathomable.
It is a good thing he never tried out for the SEALs. Their day-one BUDs training would probably have killed his whole family (and dogs)...
Ken C: Maybe the problem was that he was attempting to beat P:59 ...
I guess Mr. Mimms is just lucky he wasn't doing a kids FGB or a pediatric "Tabata Something Else" - he may have ended up worse than "permanently disabled." I'll just leave it at that... because as Thumper's daddy told him; "If you can't say something nice..."
... navy wrestler < brad: 5:18.
I love the navy. just not that guy.
Sounds like bs to me. No Athlete should ever have problems with that easy WOD. Awesome that you guys clown that Snatch. Sounds like fraud.
i thought only things like kb swings and GHD situps had the potential to cause rhabdomyolysis.
squats and pushups never hurt anybody. i thought navy guys were pushup freaks
I can't believe this guy. Can he really call himself a member of our armed forces? I hope this guy gets what is coming to him, nothing!
I can not believe that that work out gave an "All-Navy Wrestler" rhabdo! I just watched a bunch of kids do that work out and they seemed to do it fine. I am going to try this work out and see what it does to me. I wonder what his time was?! Sounds like someone was not as well conditioned as he thought!
Permanent disability from that WOD, that is rough. I'm way too lazy to read all of that information but man, what a sue-happy world this is.
Jim Glover you say you're not an advocate for CrossFit but you are reading the rest day material and posting. Hmm, not adding up...
maybe he can hire John Edwards to represent him, seems appropriate.
Navy is the 'relaxed body fat standards' branch.
Army has pushup freaks.
Marines have pullup freaks.
Air Force sleeps in late.
unfortunate that every successful business that has ever gained popularity for doing good work will eventually get sued. rhabdo should be a concern for all trainers as should making sure people are ready for the intensity of crossfit.
having said that:
makimb s. mimms = pu$$y
Isn't he embarrassed to file this lawsuit?
At least sue over something worthwhile...like AMRAP Frans in 10 minutes or Murph with 20# or Filthy Fifty....but a 90-rep bodyweight circuit..come on...I'd feel bad posting that WOD in my workout log, nevermind suing because I couldn't handle it!
I have seen people die and become seriously maimed in roller skating rinks and bicycle races, where is the uproar over how ridiculously dangerous bicycle racing is?
I hope the defense attorney plays that video in open court.
#4: I own a landscaping company; and one day hope to own a gym.
WOW...seriously!?!? Seems this dude is just another skid mark on the underwear of society looking for a "hand-out." Sad. *walking off shaking my head*
"Pain in legs, dark urine" - com'on!! get some.
I'd like to see a counter-suit and see old Makimba taken to the cleaners...this is so obviously a cash grab...
I routinely describe CrossFit to my uninitiated friends as a "wrestling-style" workout. It's as close as I can come to something they can relate to until they try it themselves.
I would love to talk to some of the other Navy wrestlers who could give some insight as to what kind of wrestler Makimba was. If that CF-Kids' WOD did him in, he must have been the team sandbagger...every team has one. His wrestling win/loss record is out there somewhere on an official site. It will be interesting to see how good he was.
My son, a very large for his age 13 year old junior varsity wrestler, does CF's adult WOD's as his pre-season wrestling workouts. Its done wonders for him and he's nowhere near a Navy wrestler's level.
What a loser! It's a sad commentary for what ails America. It's always someone else's fault. And it's an easy pay day. I'm embarrassed for these people. I don't understand why people don't equate thievery with frivolous lawsuits.
I sell medical equipment to pharmaceutical companies/universities, etc.
I seriously hope the defense attorney blows this guy to pieces.
Hilarious, Jim Broun!
Here is a quick tip for all CF trainers out there. Do a full performance assessment before gettin people involved in a group/individual program that you sign off on. It provides evidence that you took the time to set up a program based on this ground level knowledge (due diligence) and will cover your ass. as well let them know the risks invovled and the good vs. bad pain.
i love this community and i hate to see people eat it. if you can proove you have taken every opportunity to individualize programing for your clients based on their level then your ass is more or less covered. keep records, documents, sign off sheets, PAR-Q equivalents for at least a year after the client (god-forbid) "drops-out".
yes this means scaling, COACH and his trainers have indicated many times throughout the site and through the journals that posted workouts require training to get to the level of overallfitness to safely complete them. work your clients up to this point with scaled workouts (brandX anyone) and keep testing via timed run (5-10k for aero, 800-1500m for anaero/work) or scaled named wods using reduced # by %bw.
just keep your asses safe and alive. theres a bunch of pussies out there that need to be turned into lions, and crossfit will do it. but dont want those assholes who read a times magazine to decide to come arround and ruin our community.
If this lawsuit isn't thrown out then pretty much every personal trainer will be open to ridiculous accusations. I am not a doctor but my understanding is that rhabdo can be incurred by other effects and seemingly catalyzed by any exercise that they body isn't used to - almost the definition of "exercise". An aquaintance who had recently fought off some viral or bacterial infection of some sort incurred rhabdo in his lower legs after performing a some "high knee raises" while waiting for his son's soccer practice. He was in the hospital and could not walk for weeks. The issue to me is not whether Crossfit can result in rhabdo - any exercise coulod. The issue is whether a trainer should be able to identify and preempt something most doctors couldn't.
I did a long hard workout a few years ago at a Globo-Gym. I pissed blood for days and was horribly sore, but I did not go to the Dr, just popped Advil like candy and hoped to get better, which I did. Now that I know about Rhabdo, I woulda fone to the Dr. I guess I could have sued Globo for letting me work too hard to my own detriment.
Should have scrubbed the Glassman's address from the document
3,2,1 - Go call the lawyers!
I hate to hear of anyone getting injured from trying out CrossFit, but come on, how can you ever screen for someone to have such a strong predisposition for rhabdo? I'm curious to know if he was peeing coca-cola after every wrestling match...
This really sounds more like Mr. Mimms didn't want to get a real job after his separation from the Navy. What a better way to score a small fortune by claiming injury from a child's workout?
ROTFL - The music from the video is hilarious.
No self respecting wrestler could get rhabdo from that workout.
It's voluntary that we do this. I have been here for three years and at 45 in the best shape of my life. Thanks Coach and Coach Davis.
How old is this guy? He could be really out of shape, military or not. I've tried to get a couple of people to drink the kool-aid, but they were pretty pathetic. Not to hate, but some people just don't have skills.
Is it too far fetched to believe that a workout which seems so simple to many experienced Crossfitters may be a total asskicker for a former Information Systems Technician. I bet the trainers were pushin him real hard and givin him crap and he'd tried to man up but got hurt instead. Maybe they should have been more gentle with him at first. Offer some introductory training and sensitivity classes.
There are plenty of people on the forums claiming that Crossfit is dangerous. Don't know why everyone is so up in arms about the lawsuit. You can see stuff like this coming from a mile away.
People like Jay Cohen, Sarena whatever, Garret Smith, all say crossfit is dangerous and people get injured doing it.
I say they are full of crap but everyone else rides their jock and tells them they are right.
#4. Swim Coach at AGUA in NYC but that should change soon.
On a related note, does anybody here have any job openings or knowledge of any in the New Haven/Hartford, CT area? I promise i'm not a d-bag like Makimba
I am a 17yr Navy veteran (I will not speak of the officers in this case). I began Crossfit on my own and I was no where near in decent shape. To blame one exercise routine on this is ridiculous. If one routine did cause this then he was way out of shape and was not following the orders of the CNO. Also is Mr. Lopez "Crossfit Certified", if not, then you cannot blame Crossfit.
I thought this was a joke until I started reading the the comments. Still have my doubts...
Something is missing.
This guy is a shame to wrestlers everywhere. Take some damn responsibility for yourself. Nearly every wrestling practice I've ever been in has had a lond period of intense excercise similar to this without rest, he should be used to it. CrossFit is awesome!
Concur with everyone that this workout should've been a breeze for an Navy wrestler. Was that workout the only work he had done in the Ruthless gym during that session? Did he indeed fall over from fatigue during the workout? Strange. I'm eager to see the legal documents from the defense. Should be educational. :)
PS Also think it's smart to lampoon him on the main page. Nothing like a little publicized shaming to discourage future suits. ;)
What a pathetic POS. Go Navy! Semper Fi
I have my Doctorate in Physical Therapy;
As weird as it sounds, it sounds like they actually have the medical proof in the hospital documents that he did have rhabdo. His CK levels were extremely high. At the same time, one of my friends has a condition where her body is unable to break down fats effectively and will revert to rhabdo after about 20-30 minutes of exercise. Guess what she does to stay in shape? Crossfit! I would like to know what "other" workouts Makimba did that day that could have caused rhabdo INSTEAD of that workout.
The real bottom line, we need to educate people/clients that there is a risk for rhabdo, even if it is a small risk. The workout he did is an absolute joke, especially if he calls himself a wrestler. Unfortunately, it's quite possible Makimba may be able to prove that his trainer was negligent in this case. I am currently trying to get my company to begin a Crossfit program at my facility, but one of the first things they brought up to me was to put together a diclaimer that people would have to sign before beginning high intensity training to avoid just this kind of an issue. Either way, Makmiba is a joke.
he got rhabdo from a labia strain?
Nice pic of the Rakkasans in Iraq.
I just read both of your posts and I was thinking the same thing(I spit out my milk when I read that, somewhere Mark Rippetoe is crying over spilled milk and most likely squatting)
Crossfit kids is amazing and those kids are awesome, but they suck at writing. I am sorry somebody had to say it. Little kids in general are terrible at drawing and writing. Letters are too big and possibly backwards, numbers are never written in a consistent size, you can never tell if if they are writing G or 6. My dad showed me a picture I drew him when I was 7. He apparently showed it to people in a meeting and they said I sucked. My dad told me they said it was the best thing they had ever seen. It was all Bull S### and I still suck at drwaing.
Jim, pls forewarn us when you pen such mirth:
"It is a good thing he never tried out for the SEALs. Their day-one BUDs training would probably have killed his whole family (and dogs)..."
I laughed so hard my stomach is killing me...wait a minute...I think I tore a muscle fiber! Coach G, can I get rhabdo from laughing hard for 20 seconds, resting for 10 then laughing again??
I read the PDF and there are some gross & irresponsible generalizations in that document. Also, the injury occured in 2005. I find it both suspicious/unconscionable that the lawsuit is being filed now, at a time when CrossFit is enjoying immense popularity.
Is the Navy embarrassed at all by this 'athlete' (using the term very loosely). If anything this is a good example of WHY CrossFit needs an even greater presence among our service men and women.
The difference in the caliber of the human beings that have been showcased in yesterday's post and then in today's post, is HUGE.
I read this article as I sit in a hospital bed recovering, ironically enough, from rhabdo.
At first glance I thought "what a load of BS" as the workout does look ridiculously easy. However, as the owner of my own fitness facility, I see a clear difference between what I did to myself,(performing an intense workout of 100 rep sets for time when I was probably dehydrated) and what Mr Mimms was directed to do. There is a real trust that your trainer knows what is best, and the client will most often try to do what he's told. It is incumbent on the trainer that he/she assess a newcomers abilities and closely monitor their workouts. I love CrossFit because it closely mirrors what I've done and taught for years, and am considering applying for affiliation to experience more of the incredible community. But for those of you out there that aspire to train others, be very careful; it's best to err on the side of caution when dealing with someone new, regardless of their background.
hahaha – the expert examined the drawing of "Uncle Rhabdo"?
There's the next CrossFit Tee - Uncle Rhabdo kicking the piss out of a caricature of Mimms with $$ shooting from his eyes and ears instead of blood.
This is off subject, but can someone tell me how to get the vids to play on CFJ? Not tech savvy on this matter. haha Thanks for help in advance.
The key here is "reasonable": would the trainer's actions be reasonable to the ordinary reasonable crossfit trainer in his position. Here, I would think that the ordinary reasonable CF trainer (hell, the ordinary reasonable CIVILIAN) would think that a Navy wrestler could handle such a (fairly easy) workout. Lawsuit over. This guy got hurt and that sucks, but it's unreasonable to expect trainers to screen for predispositions to Rhabdo or anything like that.
I had no idea the litigation was at this stage. I would love to read Makimbo's deposition testimony.
I would highly suggest that you retain an attorney to assist you in this telephone deposition. Do not try to wing this yourself. It seems that at this stage of the litigation, there will be no new parties entered into the suit, but you need to be careful as Makimbo can potentially sue CrossFit, as well as the trainer. As I'm an attorney in Illinois, I'm not sure what the applicable rules of civil procedure are in this state, but I'd error on the side of caution.
Again, I highly suggest you have an attorney sitting with you on this phone dep. I'm sure CrossFit has some competent attorneys at their beck and call, but if you need some names, I might be able to help.
As far as this guy's case, and this is pure conjecture, I think he might have a valid cause of action. Whereas he was no he-man, he was obviously pushed past his limits to the point of getting rhabdo. Whether that is the fault of Makimbo, or the trainer will be determined in court me thinks.
**Nothing in this post is to be construed as legal advice. Proper counsel should be sought for all legal matters, regardless of the severity**
p.s. In case you didn't get it from my previous post, I'm an insurance defense attorney.
# 4 I am Detention Officer, at a County Jail (retired Army 21 years)
Crossfit is a hard, but a grown man should know his limitations
11 years in the navy and got out, WHY? Makes me wonder
Something was medically wrong with him if that work out put him in the hospital
American by birth, Lightfighter by choice
Ready to Strike
wow, maybe that guys just felt embarrassed and had to sue to save face from being owned by a kid's workout.
Randy #14... First, I agree with you in that this is ridiculous and when you look at what the plaintiff's lawyer will have to prove, I must say that is a far stretch.
As far as the McDonald's Law suit regarding the Coffee, that wasn't frivolous, it just sounds that way because you don't have all of the facts of the case, if you did, you would see that she was within her rights to sue, although she should be punished for being so silly as to put coffee between her legs while driving. The Bottom line in that was is that because McDonald's didn't want to keep handing out free refills to all of the WWII vets that hang out and read the paper every morning, they raised the temperature on their coffee to something silly. The idea was that if the coffee was too hot to drink when you first got it then you wouldn't have that 5th cup by the time lunch rolled around. I have spilled lots of coffee in my lap and never got a 3rd degree burn, this woman did, that should tell you something about the temps, that is why Mc D's had to pay up...
The guy was probably still in the military in 2005 - with free medical care. Crossfit was still only in limited cult status within the military and law enforcement back then too, so he probably didn't think he stood to gain much in a lawsuit.
Now that he is out, he must have some lingering pain from his back injury, as it really doesn't take a whole lot of physical effort to sit at a desk and type on a computer (Info Systems guy). He must also know someone who convinced him it would be worth suing now that Crossfit is booming, and has a couple of cases where people have had similar problems.
Either way, I would doubt that he is still experiencing any ill affects from the rhabdo, or the muscle 'owies' he suffered during the 2005 workout. Any physical disability he has could very well be things he suffered from wrestling, if he did that for more than a day. A recurring, permanent back or leg (muscle) injury couldn't possibly have come from one simple workout - especially when he most likely had hundreds of workouts involving squats and deadlifts, which are more likley to put someone in a hurtlocker than a few burpees...
#4 FABRICATION, KevinT That is what I trade TIME for DOLLARS doing fabricating. this lawsuit might be a fabrication. But I was not there.???? It sounds like CROSSFIT RADIO material to me!!!.
Now that was funny.
On another note I hope to never have a workout named after me for this reason.
Come to think of it I don't want to die to have a workout named after me.
You hear that Coach. No workouts named 'jakers'
From the info given seems no doubt a case of a frivolous lawsuit - who can I blame and who can I gain financially from.
However, as a CrossFit fan, one who consistently checks the site and is impressed with the dedication and positive approach advocated, as a CrossFit Journal subscriber who enjoys the challenge and the variety, I can't help but take note of Coach's vindictive approach.
There are times when you just have to fight, I understand. But to use kids for the workout, mocking the indivdual in a public forum (i.e. naming of the workout) instead of just fighting the battle in the proper forum...well that just seems to be Coach's approach.
To each his own, I suppose. But I for one, and maybe a lonely one, miss the contributions of a Dan John for example. Recently, Mark Rippetoe, expressed positive but not unequivocal support for CrossFit...how long until he too is disowned?
This is bad. Bad, bad, bad. I'll predict right now it's not the last one we're going to see, either. Man, that's about as scaled as you can make a workout short of having the guy do 3 rounds of a$$-scratching (15, 10, 5) for time.
It's actually quite scary, as both an affiliate and a trial attorney. I can just see this turning into some class-action attorney's pet project. Find every disgruntled non-hacker or someone who got injured and wants a free ride and sign them up. And they'll be going after CFHQ through the affiliate.
Gird your loins, folks. The $hit-storm and backlash is coming. Did you see the citations to the NSCA and ACSM regarding "muscular hypertrophy"? OMFG! There are a lot of people who have had their rice-bowls kicked over by CrossFit's protocol and popularity and you can bet they're going to be lining up to tell a judge the evils of CF and the wingnuts who worship "intensity", Pukie the Clown, and Uncle Rhabdo.
Man, this sucks.
A few things:
1) The lawsuit claims that Lopez "encouraged Mr. Mimms to perform a series of leg exercises for 20 minutes."
That being said, with the stated 90-rep workout, that is about 4.5 REPS PER MINUTE. This allows for 13 SECONDS OF REST between reps. Using the defense's own citation from NSCA, muscular endurance workouts (which this cleary is), should have rest intervals of "less than or equal to 30s[econds]."
2) The majority of Rhabdo cases in the military are caused during boot camp, despite the military's continuous attempt to further wussify boot camp. Yet, Capt. Pickering and now this board of experts are here to determine and tell us (the seasoned practitioners) the dangers of CrossFit. Let's compare the incidence of rhabdo from CrossFit to rhabdo from boot camp - a handful vs. 100+ per year...
3) NO ONE can make you do something by "demanding the planitiff exert extraordinary effort." As a former competitive athlete, I highly doubt Mimms would have "stopped, rested, drank fluids, and ceased the exercise." Also, as a seasoned athlete, Mimms should be aware of the dangers (not just Rhabdo) associated with training too intensely following a layoff from working out. As such it is the DEFENDANT'S responsibilty to know and stay within his own limits.
3) If 4.5 reps per minute was really Mimm's limit, then, well, you know...
#66 Richie, don't worry, Coach has a slew of lawyers to help him with the phone call. :-)
#4 I am a USMC EA-6B ECMO (I fly but I'm not a pilot) currently working a test and acquisitions billet at Pt Mugu.
1 - DJ and Coach apparently mended fences recently on these pages. You should maybe stick to what you know. Their dispute was a personal mater and I doubt you're in a position to know all of the ins and outs. I'm not claiming to know all of it, BTW. But you do yourself a disservice by dredging up & attempting to revive that incident.
2 - If you knew a good bit of the facts and then saw Rip's interview on T-Nation, where he was quite effusive in his praise for CF, at least as to GPP (I would agree he was not totally unequivocal - but he implied that his sole issue relates to his own experience/direction in strength training). Your post seems awfully ironic in light of those facts. Or moronic.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and go with ironic.
I hope the xfit kids video is shown in court (with volume blasting) and Makimba is laughed out of the courtroom. Unfortunately, I don't have that kind of faith in our legal system.
It wouldn't surprise me if some xfit workouts caused serious harm if not done correctly... but this workout and someone serving in the armed services? No way.
It's times like this when I wish there were more judges out there who wouldn't even give cases like this credence. Hopefully Makimba never sniffs a dime of what he's asking.
I am neither a doctor nor a lawyer, so maybe you should ignore all this.
First, I share the sentiment expressed above that this workout does not seem like the kind of thing that would cause rhabdo. Having said that, this case could be hugely important to affiliates in the United States. From the text of the complaint, it looks like Lopez was running a Crossfit business called Ruthless out of a World gym called Manassas. All three are defendants, so if the plaintiff wins everything (not likely, but just pointing out the stakes), some implications will be:
- Trainers can be held liable for clients' damages and are not shielded as employees or contractors, even when their activities are expressly characterized as fulfilling their obligations to their employers.
- Affiliate owners who also train clients should expect their wealth not to be protected by the LLC structure because of the above point.
- Gyms hosting personal training businesses not run by their own employees (like Crossfit affiliates operating in globos) are liable for the damages of those businesses' clients. Every globo should throw out every third party trainer if this happens.
- Crossfit affiliates will have to lawyer up and get every client to waive all claims and acknowledge that neither the affiliate nor any of its employees or contractors owe the client any duty of any kind. The trainers should probably seek their own waivers too just to be on the safe side.
Any attorneys want to weigh in on this?
The mocking here is beneath the high road that CrossFit and Coach should be taking.
Unless these depositions are totally false, he did suffer rhabdo, which is pretty serious. I hope they find some other factors (congenital predisposition, extraordinarly poor eating or sleeping habits, other strenuous activities soon before or after, etc.) that explain why someone would suffer as much as he did from such a simple workout. I feel that this will not be the last lawsuit from someone who did CrossFit wrong and got too wrecked by their first workout, and it will be good to set a good precedent.
I agree with #66, if you don't have a lawyer yet, Coach, I'd get one for the deposition. I'm a lawyer in Tucson and would be happy to talk with you about options/recommendations if you'd like. Given that the plaintiff's own lawyer touts the fact that Crossfit warns about rhabdo, it does seem like they lay the blame on the trainer/gym and not on Crossfit itself, but if they can find a way to hit the bigger enterprise, I'm sure they will.
Pat #55 - HA HA HA!
Oh yeah - My job is that I own and operate Diablo CrossFit.
As far as the lawsuit goes, I wonder about Makimba's alcohol or drug intake the hours or days before the workout (also big contributers to Rhabdo).
To test this theory, I plan on doing "Makimba" the day after DCF's next Kegger (the last one was Sunday, too bad I didn't know about this sooner, I could have had really good results on Monday).
For better or worse, I tend to be a bit suspicious by nature. I have caught far too many people in far too many lies to walk through life thinking the best of everyone, although it would be nice if I could.
This smells like a setup. Navy Captain gets roundly criticized in public, former Navy guy who claims he sustained injuries 3 years ago files lawsuit within a month. Coincidence? Maybe.
Or maybe not. Certainly, the facts of the case, as I understand them, make the case farcical on the face of it, but potentially very damaging nonetheless. I understand Informational Warfare quite well, and truth is neither necessary nor sufficient (in most cases) for victory.
The reasons this may play to the hands of those who dislike CrossFit for whatever reason, are the same reasons a career socialist is in a dead heat to lead our nation with a war hero who is clearly a moderate.
My favorite part of the lawsuit.
#28 If plantiff had been warned of the unreasonable risks and hazards of this exercise regimen, he would have not undergone it: he would have stopped, rested, drank fluids and ceased the exercise.
How long could this have possible taken him? 3 minutes
Isn't a wrestling match three 3 minute rounds?
Do they get to stop in the middle of a round to get a drink?
Hell, were I train MMA they do a 40 minute round the week prior to a fighter fighting.
As a ex-Navy CDR, I am highly disappointed in this young man's attempt to discredit the Crossfit organization. That workout was easier than a PFT test in the 1980's. Has the navy softened that much? I doubt it.
As the husband of an attorney who practiced insurance defense as a third year law student, I completely understand the insanity of those individuals who feel like they can abuse the system instead of finding a viable means of making a living.
i do basketball and crossfit for a living
i am going to be a freshman at albion college in michigan this year
Adam Temple Owl
I'm with you. That kid's trying to write "Brad" (I think) at the end of the video but his "a" and "d" look exactly the same. Well which is it kid? Braa or Brdd? How the hell are we supposed to make any sense out of that chicken scratch?
Along the same lines I'm also thinking about suing CrossFit. I'm a little wussier than a Navy wrestler because I used to be a tennis player so I believe someone should've known that I would be very uncomfortable when Fran was combined with rowing and later combined with glute ham situps in the same month. I would be willing to settle, though, since I was not actually injured on the Fran rowing workout (I was actually pretty happy with my time) and I skipped the Fran GHD workout due to fear.
Can I have a free t-shirt?
you are right i know nothing about the facts of micky d's case nor would ever try to make ronald the good guy :) just used an example people can recall. as we all know it is everyone's right to sue anyone, anytime. my point in bringing up mcdonalds was simply when a precedent is set that results in $$$$ for the plaintiff, expect more lawsuits as there will be plenty of attorneys that will take the cases and people out their claiming injury.
i was risk manager for a national rental car company for many years. i have seen millions of dollars awarded for injuries sustained in auto accidents in which there was no vehicle damage many times.
Any One is the Pasadena California Area?
Im going to be opening a BOX in October and want to start letting fellow crossfitters know.
I want to write a lot about that PDF file.. but I just cant find a place to begin. So ill jsut smile and say.. OK!
So would you consider thisk a "fallen Zero" workout???
That video was hilarious. The poor guy probably won't get a confidence boost seeing it.
Thanks for posting thiS PDF as well as Mimms' Complaint. I'll be interested to see any Reply from Ruthless, Javier Lopez and Manassas Gym.
Is there actual confirmation on this baphoon's wrestling credentials? Touching a mat does not make you a wrestler. Might be a professional donut wrestler now.
Yahoo search: http://www.c7f.navy.mil/news/7frel334.html
"He won more than 100 matches in four years of wrestling in the 130-pound weight class for Inkster High School. An overall record of 47 wins and two losses culminated in a fifth place finish in the Michigan state championships to round out his senior year."
There is no date attached, so I'm guessing Michigan State Championships 1954.
So very very sad and shocking. Hardly anyone takes responsibility for their own actions.
As most of you I think that this case is complete BS. If the military thinks that at a little work out like "Makimba" can seriously cause the type of injury that Mimms got then there won't be anymore 10K ruck runs, Navy Seals wont be able to train anymore. shoot we might as well do away with all of the PT in the Military. I know that in Army RPS (ranger prep school) we pushed a loaded Humvee around a track for about an hour. I should sue!
And stop criticizing the kids writing. I have been writing on white boards for more than a couple years now and I still can't write on them much better than that.
It is too bad he was never introduced to Murph
I am a 42 year old Police Officer from Toronto, Canada. Today I performed a PB deadlift of 405. On top of performing a bonus workout of 3 rounds for time of 24" box jumps 21 reps, 15 Kettlebell burpee clean and jerk 15 reps (36lb kb's) and 135 lb hang power cleans 9 reps, run 400 m in 22:14. I can only say that crossfit has put me in the best shape of my life, far better than my old "globo" gym workouts. My wife sometimes thinks I'm obsessed and a little crazy when I complain about my aches and pains. But even she knows that the workouts I do help ensure I get home every night after every shift safe and sound. Thank you crossfit, thank you coach, I will not stop crossfitting.
I think this is a "shot across the bow" for affiliates. Unless you are constantly pushing the power back into the hands of your students, requiring them to be personally responsible for the speed, intensity, and amount of rest (or not) they take during a workout, you could be held responsible. Is this lawsuit ridiculous? Absolutely. But there is something to learn from it. We don't call what we do "boot camp" for a reason, and we don't force people to do anything - in fact we instruct them to check in with themselves and be responsible. We have no expectations for them - they must decide how hard and how fast to go - we simply write the workout, and let them choose how much of it they'd like to do and how fast to do it, since of course, they know themselves much better than we know them. Does this guarantee that we won't get sued too, probably not... but it certainly helps.
you would have thought it would happen on left coast.
limited liability corporation
see first 2 words
At first i thought that pdf was a joke. rhabdo - drink lots of water.
As a CrossFit trainer, CrossFit Affiliate owner, Physician Assistant and Nurse Practitioner, I appreciate having as many details about this suit as possible for my own knowledge.
1. Rhabdo in CrossFit, while quite rare, seems to be manifested by lots of pull-ups, esp jumping pull ups. This workout, while a relatively simple one (with no pullups), does have a lot of posterior chain eccentric movement and it has 3 of those movements stacked together. Lots of large muscle groups and lots of workload there, even if it is done with light weight. It isn't clear to me if the WOD was 3 rnds of 15, 10, 5 of thrusters, Burpees, Squats OR thrusters, squats, burpees - the video and the law suit show different versions. Doesn't really matter - just a discrepancy I noted.
2. Yes, the client should know his limits. The trainer also must assess how the client is doing and use judgment in training, especially with new CrossFitters -- no matter what kind of sports they're involved in.
3. On a medical note, his CK was very high. He DID have rhabdo and was hospitalized. On the surface, he's got a case. What I can't figure out is the persistent 'proximal muscle weakness' that required a muscle biopsy over 2 years later? The etiology of this is not clear to me, as far as I know, Rhabdo doesn't have lasting effects on the muscle. If he does have residual proximal muscle weakness in his lower extremities, I'd sure like to know why. The whole thing about Malignant Hyperthermis is confusing, too.
Finally, while many here seem to think this is a frivolous lawsuit, I have no doubt it is NOT frivolous to the plaintiff or the trainer named in the suit.
Anyone who trains others will do best to learn as much as they can from this case - If there is new information about exercises that cause rhabdo, predispositions for rhabdo, or some sort of residual effects of rhabdo, don't you think it would be prudent to listen and learn, rather than just shoot from the hip and call this frivolous?
It's my hope that there's a satisfactory resolution for all parties involved.
Where to start...
First off I started my mom on CrossFit who is well over weight and has probably not done anything physical since high school which was 25+ years ago. I had her doing ring rows, squats, push-ups, sit-ups, and what ever else I could come up with. Her first few workouts lasted around 15 minutes. She seems fine.
Now the parts of the letter from the "exercise physiologist" who is so very qualified to give a statement about CrossFit, says "Mr. Mimms has not done any resistance training prior to December 11th" then you read on for awhile and she states something like, Mr. Mimms being a former athlete nows how to listen to a coach, etc.., Interesting that he was an athlete, a sailor, and human, yet has never done any resisitance training to include standing up multiple times in a row.
In closing I have ready plenty of posts on the forum of people doing FRAN or one of the other girls as their fist WOD and stating they have not worked out in quite sometime.
This case is a complete joke and if he happens to win anything may he live out the rest of his life in pain and anguish and be alone for all if it. I have no respect for people that cannot take responsibility for their own actions and constantly search for handouts.
Oh and he at least did a good job at making himself look like a pussy. He could have at least done something that involved some real weight. Mr. Mimms check out www.crossfitkids.com they will teach you how to be a man. Obviously your parents were unable to do so.
For everyone attempting the WOD to see if it injures them...shame on you for being so gullible. I wish I could slap your hands like you would a small child (possibly one of the children in the video?). Mr. Mimm's injuries are either BS or the result of something else, obviously.
The American dream today seems to be slightly wronged by someone (preferably with deep pockets), claim massive amounts of pain and suffering for your minor issue, and sue for millions.
Now, mind you....the people don't really want to be badly hurt...calling them a bad name, or delaying them on the way to the store...something like that is best. After all, they want to be able to enjoy that multimillion dollar settlement.
And feeding on all of these frivolous law suits? Lawyers from both sides of the aisle. Want to see a great example? Look up the Exxon Valdez history.....multibillion dollar settlement that has again and again been reduced in value. And still, none of the plaintiffs have received anything for it. But the lawyers have.
I know that not all lawyers are a part of this. But, it is hard to find any measure of respect for the entire profession because of so many bad apples.
This turned into a rant. My apologies to anyone that is offended. (unless you are a lawyer! :P)
"The articles states that troops struck with rhabdo are more likely to be from Army and Marine units,"
Haha! Take that Blue tigers and Squids! No one kicks their own asses to the point of illness better than GI Joes and Jarheads. I'm almost proud of this fact, I am not proud this guy.
Comment #28 Jim Broun, You about hit the nail on head with that one brother!
Rakkasans! The most annoying brigade in all the Screaming Eagles, I ain't mad at ya, but I think that M1114 needs a red Torii painted on it! Come on guys what the hell?
I'm guessing the second guy to the right sent the picture in, the one that looks like he robbed a Ranger Joe's Store. Why is the 203 gunner wearing latex gloves and the guy behind him missing his groin protector? Why does the guy hiding behind the 1114 have his helmet off? But hey what do I know, I'm just a fobbit these days but I wasn't always.
Hey keep doing what your doing, "upside down umbrella" men! Your taking the fight to them while jerks like me sharp shoot ya.
Charlatan 6 out
This guy allegedly got rhabdo from 30 reps each (15-10-5 reps) of 10 lbs dumbell thrusters, air squats and burpees? Or did he do this three times for a total of 90 reps for each movement? The page at the top of the legal papers implies the first choice.
Any chance this person did something else the same day that could have caused the rhabo?
#4 (KevinT) - I'm a Certified Mortgage Planning Specialist (CMPS).
Wow, I can believe it though. People are always looking to make money the easy way. The problem I see in this and most of the statements made is that he actually did this to himself.
I am a fitness director with a masters in exercise physiology. I have been doing crossfit for 3 months now and love it.
Before starting crossfit I have had my clients do "similar" type workouts. I have age ranges from 18-70 and they all have done a version of this type of workout. I can say, every one of them would be able to finish that workout and then look at me and say, "is that all"?
You have to wonder what the motivation is behind this lawsuit. The program can only hurt you if you let it. You push yourself as hard as you can and know your own limits. At no point does someone make you do more then you can. In the end, it is your responsibility to know your limits.
I read most of what was posted and my first thought was, what kind of injuries has he sustained in wrestling? Can we compare a wrestling workout to that "child's" WOD? To be honest, if he claims a 10 lb thruster caused him injury, how does he get out of his bed every morning?
His complaint and lawsuit are full of holes. He can not prove that Crossfit or his trainer for that matter caused him harm. If it was a pre-existing condition and he did not inform his trainer of the problem then that is the fault of the client.
I could go on and on but I believe we are all talking the same language here. I don't know how anyone can't be a fan of crossfit. I don't understand how someone can't see the benefit of the exercise routines. If someone has a reason why crossfit is not good for you, please email me. I would love to hear it and discuss with you your misguided information. :)
No F#&ing way. I call BS on this lawsuit, it just seems impossible that such a light load could cause rhabdo. I've only seen a few cases, and they all involved large loads or volume, and this workout has neither.
KevinT comment 4, I am a serial entrepreneur...
About this lawsuit, everyone who is a crossfit affiliate or a trainer at one, take note and study this lawsuit so that you can protect yourself against the type of people who will put you out of business, not because you are a hazard but because you are successful.
Have Fun, Train Hard,
This case is unfortunatly much more valid than most people are giving it credit for. It is very important to note that this case is being brought agains Mr. Lopez and the Ruthless gang. (sounds like an 80's rock band) Unless some kind of waiver was signed prior to the workout, Mr. Lopez has some real troubles here since he advised this workout. Crossfit is suspect in this since Ruthless uses the system used by crossfit. Lets just hope Mr. Lopez doesn't have a cert.
I'm a Data Analysis here in Iraq for the Army and it is a travasty to have another member of our armed forces sueing because he got smoked. Still, he has a decent shot at getting this thing.
Oh, and to #90, "as we all know it is everyone's right to sue anyone, anytime".
Sueing is hardly a "Right". A privilage of our justice system yes, but a right?
The Makimba Incident...INCONCEIVABLE (& Hilarious!)
Bag Makimba, I had a great time visiting SoCal where I got to work out at CROSSFIT LAGUNA BEACH. Lucas Ann & Armando beat me up happily with an "Elizabeth". This was my first visit ever to an affiliate and my first time on rings - it was awesome! Thanks for the kipping pullup/ring dip/clean tips! I couldn't buy a shirt though but I will online so ship quickly.
Thanks for the reference Gina!
PS - James, great gym great trainer, after reading the Maikmba article - BEAT NAVY! (at least that particular sailor)
Papi (M/44 YO/174#)
wa wa wa, wanna go home, want your mommy, suck her T***Y, boo hoo hoo, got no balls!
I am a firm believer in comment #28. I truely believe that the guy tried to expedite the rehab and push the limits. The body tells you when it is enough. I have been in the Marines for 15 years and a firm advocate of CrossFit. Myself and my colleagues have never been injured over anything like that. Only if we by far exceeded the maximum that our bodies could handle, and then some more. Safeties and techniques are taught for a reason. When you break them, they break you. As we say "it is good to be hard, but it is hard to be smart".
Keep up the good work and keep on training! CrossFit for life and Semper Fi.
from the CrossFit Crew in Iraq.
#4 I am a med student.
While I find this lawsuit funny and don't believe that this workout could cause Rhabdo in anyone - even an overweight, inactive, elderly person. Is it right to post a mockery workout video?
Taking the high road is a good thing. Americans get a bad rep (for doing things like sueing at every possible chance). It's ok to be a good person even when the other guy doesn't deserve it.
He was probably dehydrated, malnourished, maybe a smoker, probably morbidly obese, etc. Nobody gets that f'd up from such a light workout without some kind of preexisting contributing factor. And I call BS on his "wrestling" background. No wrestlers I've ever met have been so prone to disabling injuries like that. And I wonder, how exactly did this guy make it through his Navy basic training?
I belive that it's all about $...This joker is just tryin to make a quick buck!
For those who bitch that guy couldn't be fit, it's worth it to note "[o]nly newcomers have been affected [by rhabdo] and poor fitness has NOT been a factor."
All told, if the allegations are true and that kids' workout put the guy in the hospital, then it's likely he just got whacked with the bad luck stick. Hopefully the judge/jury will see it that way.
I remember the time I peed coke-colored piss for a couple days and could barely walk for a week. It was made possible by one (1) four minute workout of tabata air squats done after a month-long layoff (fractured tibia).
I was injured following a crossfit workout the other day!
I ripped my bloody hand doing pull ups, and the only thing that I'm pis*ed about is that it is so bloody painful that not only can I not open and close my hand without re opening the wound I can't touch it or pich up anything heacy which means I can't do a majority of the WODs or go to my BJJ training :-(
I can't wait to heal so I can get a shot at getting Rhabdo instead of sitting on my butt feeling sorry for myself with this stupid little cut (that is also now infected).
Yethh Richard everyone here is stho mean! OMG!
Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling or stress caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a fundamental cognitive drive to reduce this dissonance by modifying an existing belief, or rejecting one of the contradictory ideas.
Often one of the ideas is a fundamental element of ego, like "I am a good person" or "I made the right decision." This can result in rationalization when a person is presented with evidence of a bad choice, or in other cases. Prevention of cognitive dissonance may also contribute to confirmation bias or denial of discomforting evidence. If not corrected, this can lead to further bad choices for the sake of consistency, rather than learning from mistakes.
Often one of the ideas is a fundamental element of ego, like "I'm a great athlete"....
Rhabdo is no joke, and neither is coming face to face with an evolutionary, self-selection smack down.
Thanks for tossing this back to our community Coach. Transparency is everything.
Army Logistics Officer; Former Artinfantry officer; Deputy Sustainment Brigade General Supply and Support Operations Officer; working logistics from an all too embarrassing, undisclosed, forward location for my second 15 monther.
No comment on the lawsuit...Can't read it, it's being blocked on my army computer.
Those here who are exhibiting a total lack of appreciation for the implications of what apparently happened to Mr. Mimms (getting rhabdo as a result of a basic CrossFit WOD given by a CrossFit Trainer) are missing the point.
And the point is, whether you think someone is a wimp doesn't matter. What matters is that
this could happen to LOTS of people who subscribe to the CrossFit methods - Not because CrossFit is bad or dangerous, BUT THE PEOPLE WHO USE THE CROSSFIT METHODS APPEAR to have ARROGANT AND DANGEROUS attitudes and a lack of appreciation for the potential harm that can occur when these methods are employed (especially with beginning CrossFitters).
If you aren't asking: 'How can I make sure I don't prescribe a workout that'll hospitalize someone?' then you better be ONLY training yourself.
I've trained Navy guys, Marine guys... they usually have so much pride / ego / whatever you want to call it that they won't tell you they are killing themselves.
Remember? Men will die for points. Or to beat the next guy's time.... Most guys I know won't say 'I can't do that.' -- they'll do it even if it kills them.
I've got to be the one who stops them from killing themselves - at least for the first few weeks of me training them.
HOOAH, gentlemen! It's because of you I sleep soundly at night. Keep up the great work!
Any word on the unit or location of this picture?
Another awesome picture. I'm really going to enjoy this rest day!
That would be Capt. Steve McGregor of the 3rd Battalion, 187th Infantry Regiment, 3rd Brigade Combat Team, 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault) and his men. I happen to know as he is my fiancé and I couldn't be prouder of him.
The writing on the wall is chilling. As an athlete who values the services of trainers and an existence of CrossFit I find this litigation frightening. As a prospective affiliate I'm proactively seeking guidance to protect myself. It seems CrossFit affiliates could benefit from pulling their resources to this end.
Respect to Coach for his stance of ridiculing this guy Mimms. He is a disgrace to himself and the U.S Navy. You've got balls coach.
If he did get injured doing Crossfit he should accept it, take it on the chin and move on. Instead he let it beat him and deciced to take the easy route and find someone to blame. The worrying thing is he could win his law suit which could have serious repercussions for the Crossfit industry.
On the other hand Crossfit is a revolution, and no revolution is won without a fight. We know how amazing Crossfit is and that its worth fighting for.
I work as a fitness instructor/ sports therapist in Ireland and if i was presented with a former member of the U.S Navy and wrestler to train i would have given him a workout 10 times tougher than the 'kids' workout Mimms did. My workout would probably have killed him.. Shame he didnt come to Ireland!
In the mean time i guess we all should learn from this and exercise caution when dealing with anyone from the Navy in future :)
I have worked with the Navy in the past and I can tell you first hand that they think conducting their semmi annual fitness test is "high risk training". This is no surprise to me at all. As a whole they are weak minded and have no concept of what real world training is suppossed to be. I will take my hat off to all of the Seals and the few Navy units that actually have a job, but other than those the rest are sisters at best.
I think "Makimba" should be the posted WOD tomorrow. Let's see how everyone performs and if anyone out there gets rhabdo from it.
Some people just can't hang.
Everyone fails - warriors get back in the fight and prey lays down and dies. I guess we know which category Mimms falls into.
And here I thought that some degree of risk was inherent in ANY workout program.
Congratulations Mr Glassman. Crossfit has arrived. Not until an organization is involved in its first lawsuit is it considered legitimate in America.
Makimba just became one of my PT workouts for this year. Can't wait to tell all the troops that they just performed a workout that almost killed a star Navy wrestler. ::chuckle::
thats some bs and i hope it dosnt float, and that captain makes me ashamed to be in the navy, crying about badass workouts that would get the people that are slobs, in the navy, a little less pathetic
That video's hilarious. I'll be singing the tune all day. Great way to start a well deserved Rest Day.
In 3+ months of crossfit, I've learned to never underestimate the power of the Burpee.
Has anyone considered that the "Makimba" workout on CF Kids is probably *not* the workout that Mimms alleges did him in, but is just named after him instead?
You should read the PDF.....
This is the exact workout that permanently disabled Makimba Mimms, All-Navy wrestler, who is suing Ruthless Training for his injuries. “Makimba”
Three rounds, one each of 15-10-5 reps, for time, of:
Dumbbell Thrusters with 10 lbs
I'm a speech-language pathologist and visiting professor. I have NO athletic background. I spent 2 and 1/2 weeks practicing the kipping pullup before I got it right. I complete most of the WOD's as rx'd (still working on cleans and snatches as rx'd). Some of my favorite WODs are the ones that leave me on ground gasping for air.
The moral of the story is 'know thy self'. If he were driving and the passenger kept saying 'faster' and he received a speeding ticket - who gets the ticket - the driver or the passenger? It's your body - listen to it!
It's a shame that people (some) are wanting to blame others for their misfortunes. Bad enough to blame others for something to make fortunes. Ya'll have a nice day back in the U.S.
this is just embarassing. maybe when mimms checks the crossfit main site today (and you know he will) he'll see the vid and drop the lawsuit out of shame.
let me tell you why i have no sympathy for this guy. if you're in the navy for any length of time, you know it's tendency toward knee-jerk reactions when it comes to safety. he filed this lawsuit knowing that it's repercussions would be felt everywhere, and that those who benefit from crossfit would suffer. i'm still waiting for the "no high intenisty physical training" order to come down the chain.
in an earlier post, coach questioned whether or not the navy truly cared about fitness, and said he wasn't convinced that it does.
i'm convinced it doesn't.
Google turned up this for Mimms' wrestling credentials but not much else.
Wrestling – L. P. Individual honors by weight class
Held at Battle Creek - Kellogg Arena March 7-8, 1997
Kalamazoo - University Arena
First Place --Brandon Ambris, Constantine, Dec. Winston Ruffin, Montrose, 3-2.
Third Place -- Joe Daniels, Delton-Kellogg, Dec. Brad Taylor, Goodrich, 12-6.
Fifth Place -- Makimba Mimms, Inkster, Dec. Kurt Root, Shepard, 3-1.
Seventh Place -- Matt Gillison, Benzie Central, Dec. Tim Deleon, Spring Lake, 6-2.
Not to say the lawsuit has no merit. I am sure it does. The fact is Ruthless is not a CrossFit affiliate. They have not been for a couple years or so.
If more judges would crush people who file these frivolous b.s. lawsuits, our tax dollars wouldn't be wasted in the civil court system.
What a sorry-ass pu$$y! This punk should be ashamed of himself.
Ahh the beauty of Google--
Makimba Mimms is a pretty unique name so I did a little Google-Fu and behold:
Looks like Mr Mimms has purchased a house last year (Jan 2007) in Bristow (Just outside of Manassas) for $360,000 which is market avg (yes, houses are that much in Northern VA). His loss of employment hours from a Crossfit session must have also clouded his judgement on buying a house shortly before the SubPrime meltdown? Maybe, just speculation. The lawsuit is for $500k? Just enough to cover the house and some other bills. Again, just speculation, but coincidental to say the least.
Sometimes I think that CF'ers go overboard with the names we have for affiliates, and an LLC named "Ruthless' certainly doesn't help. I'm not saying that this is a fact for the court to consider, but in the court of public opinion it hurts the image of Crossfit. Poohpooh on Mr Lopez et al; it was a crap shoot that a rassler would not be able to handle a workout that should not have been an issue, but this is precisely what liability insurance is for. Good Luck to him.
Retire Navy SEAL here and once again ashamed of the Navy. Why can't individuals take responsibility for events /failures in their lives instead of always trying to make if someone elses fault. Life's not fair...
This guy could not have been possibly adhering to military regs concerning physical fitness standards. Could he even be able to pass an pt test if give before Dec 11? Was he on the fat boy program? How could the wrestling team let him shirk the pt test. I don't get it. I want more of this story from Ruthless as well as Mahimba and anyone that knows him. This Saturday at our weekly crossfit gathering we are going to perform "Mahimba" for time. Maybe do it a couple of times. I hope that Ruthless has their story cause it needs to be known to clear this issue up.
Did Mimms actually use 10 lb. DBs for the thrusters?
Also, someone asked why the case was filed just now. The statute of limitations for personal injury cases in Virginia is two years, and the original complaint was filed in November. (The complaint posted here is an amended complaint, which is generally pretty easy to get permission for in Virginia.)
ha ha I was just looking at Kyle Maynard below and actually got motivated to workout really hard tommorrow...Mahimba you suck
looks to me like the trainer didnt pick up on squat form deficiency and pushed the intensity before form. if he had mobility issues then maybe the tears were intense enough to create an excess of tissue in the blood stream?
also possible that the guy pushed his warm up too hard? Or didnt warm up enough/properly
I think its weird that the knee jerk reaction- frivolous lawsuit etc takes precedence over trying to figure out what might have happened.
who on the board has never ever overtrained?
Id also proffer this to trainers- ask any question 3 times in 3 different forms and you will get an accurate read on what the client is feeling in their body- clients, without neccesarily meaning to, will tell you what they think YOU want to hear (except for congential whiners- but they are easy to spot)
If the guy is BS - the court will figure it out accurately - just like they did with the Mc Ds coffee case- which was not a frivolous one.
the bigger problem- (for Crossfit and mil) is what the Navy decides- thats the potentially sad part.
I run a CF Affiliate (DEFY!), and this lawsuit is the kind of thing that keeps me up at night.
I also am ex-Navy, and frankly it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that it's a sailor who's doing this. I saw some great examples of nobility when I was in, but also a lot of weak, self-serving idiots.
The biggest downfall of the Navy vs. the other services (or law enforcement, or firefighters, or football teams for that matter)in my opinion is that it doesn't foster any spirit of brotherhood, esprit de corps, or even much in the way of "duty". In turn, the attitude (or range of attitudes) isn't much different from what you'd get in any office cubical environment. Some who take great pride in their work, some who just want to put in their hours and go home for the night, and some who want to "work the system".
Please note that this does NOT apply to the special branches of the Navy (SEALs, Pilots, CeeBees, etc). From what I've seen and heard, they truly do regard each other as family.
Regarding the suit itself: a big part of what I consider my "due dilligence" is to warn newbies, particularly those who are used to pushing themselves hard, about the dangers, and let them know that I'm GOING to rein them in a little bit for the first few workouts. Hopefully Lopez can show that he did that as well.
I find your comment to be completely offensive as I am sure that any and every CF woman would kick Makimba's a$$ and leave him crying in a puddle of his own vomit.
3-187 psd iraq... good times still here though bout to leave
With an athletic history of wrestling and a carreer in the Navy behind him it seems unlikely that he has "never done leg exercises prior to Dec. 11th". I don't see how he can really sell his claim when going to a fitness club called Ruthless where the going program is one known to be quite difficult.
The deposition reports subsequent treatments including surgery. I wasn't aware that the effects of Rhabdo could be permanent (besides death of course) or ultimately require surgical treatment. Is this possible?
The kineseologist Dr. Clarkson suggests that he should have been given a beginner WOD...If that's not a beginner workout, I don't know what is.
This is nothing but a cash grab.
I blogged a BBC website about GB's lack of weightlifting prowess in the Olympics (http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A33552344).
Cut a long story short I lamented gym's facilities and trainers etc and recommended people turn the FREE resource of crossfit.com for training tips and insructions etc - one guy who calls himself Fonz wrote this :
"Crossfit advocates high rep olympic lifting, and often with extraordinarily bad form. They also have an 'uncle rhabdo' mascot - they think training to the point where you poison your own blood from overexertion is something to joke about."
So even in the UK we are blighted by ignorance and people who do not care to take the time to read and research crossfit before condemning it.
Weighlifting aside, go Team GB!!!! - our best medal haul in modern times - 16 Golds and 3rd in the table. If USA didn't have Phelps, we'd get some revenge for 4th July (but the point is you do have Phelps, I know).
Love this program and please counterclaim defamation/libel etc.
Love the sarcasm of the video. LoL.
I know how uncomfortable you are with the idea of people telling you how great CrossFit is and how their whole lives are changed because of you, etc. I'm NOT sure, however, if it makes you equally uncomfortable to be told you are one funny mofo. The video, and especially the song choice, were PERFECT to accompany the article. Nice work, as usual, to you and Tony and whoever else helped out on that project.
lol thats less than the crossfit warmup.
“You know what’s another excellent way to get a musculoskeletal injury?” one
poster asked in reply to Picker’s assessment. “Getting shot because you can’t
run fast enough with 50 [pounds] on your back!”
Well, maybe people new to Crossfit or in an affiliate gym should have to read and sign the 'Makimbo/Rhabdo Caveat', that is, "I understand that. . . .".
Wonder how many 'ordinary' people who engage the services of a trainer in the average fitness facility and say, "Work me out like they do on 'The Biggest Loser'" sue the workout facility for torn/strained/etc body parts.
As stupid as this lawsuit may be, it seems to me that it is bad form to mock the plaintiff by naming a wod after him.
#4 - I'm in the Navy and nearing the end of a training pipeline - destination Iraq.
My combat training consisted of two weeks with the Army. Despite my pleas to the contrary, the physical training was minimal and short. Too many sailors have been injured in the past and so the Navy told the Army to relax their regiment. We worked out four times and did the Army's Phase I routine (windmills, bend and reach, 10 pushups, calf stretch, etc). We then ran one mile, self-paced. Minimal and pathetic.
In a few weeks I'll be in Iraq with a group of sailors who, for the most part, can not shoot a rifle or run a complete mile. Of course I have tried PT'ing them. One day I taught them air squats and push press (45lb). We did 50 of each. One sailor made it half way through, quit, and still couldn't walk the next day. In fact, during urinalysis testing the following day, he was so sore that he lost control of the wrong bowels while urinating. He has refused to exercise since...and he might be my only backup if/when things turn sour. :(
Ultimately the Navy is putting its sailors at greater risk. By emphasizing the new PT uniforms and camaraderie instead of focusing on punishing the fat and lazy bodies, we have a fleet of sailors unable to complete a CrossFit Kids workout.
As a former wrestler and present day coach, I almost feel ashamed that this "All-Navy Wrestler" would cry like this. By the way, I also work for the Navy, as a defense contractor. We have a state of the art gym right on base we all go to during lunch, and I can tell you right now, CF is spreading through the hard core guys like wild fire. The fact that this idiot wants to place blame (obviously for money) on other individuals because he didn't have the intelligence or balls to recognize his own limitations is his own fault. Again, I'm a former wrestler who still coaches and wrestles with some of the best HS talent in the state of NJ. However, yesterday's WOD was deadlift singles. I have 4 herniated discs in my back. Guess What? I didn't do them! I ran a 5K instead and today is another bright and shiny day. If you read through the document, you will see the knucklehead admits he never trained his legs before. What a douche. Anyway, keep up what you're doing. It's made a hell of a difference in my life both on and off the wrestling mat. And I promise you I will never try to extort money from you because I was stupid.
President, Lacey Wrestling Club
Warrior is to prey what Kyle Maynard is to Makimba Mimms.
What a contrast in character.
Great video by the way. Gotta love the kids getting at it.
I've been to a few of the affiliates here in the DC area and each time I had to sign a waiver that said I knew about rhabdo, sacral tears etc. and that I couldn't hold the affiliate responsible for self-induced injuries.
We are going to do this as a warm up today.
I guess the key is to make sure people sign waivers and constantly remind them to listen to their own bodies (i do this about 20 times a class). Grace and Peace.
Malignant Hyperthermia (MH) is a genetic condition in which muscle release too much calcium resulting in sustained contration. This uses up all available ATP, muscles become hypoxic and break down. The course of injury is very similar to rhabdo. This gentleman had surgery, which was nothing more then a muscle biopsy, to determine if he had MH. He did not and with this information, it will be argued that he was no genetically predisposed to rhabdo. The experts will say rhabdo was caused by over exertion from this workout and nothing else.
Does CFHQ keep a database of CF induced rhabdo? Is that database public?
I had my 12 year old daughter do the workout this morning. It took her 2 minutes, 31 seconds. I don't think she even broke a sweat. She's back to playing video games. Hope she doesn't sue me.
i did not catch it in the fact but did this guy sign a waiver when he went to the gym? Usually those waivers are pretty far reaching. To establish gross negligence plus proximate cause is going to be very hard. Obviously they hope to settle for some cash.
What I find extraordinarily troubling here is that Mr. Mimms engaged in an at-will workout, knowing full well that the workout may in fact cause him to "exert" himself, and still feels privy to compensation because he overworked. If, at any point, Mr. Mimms felt as though he were pushing himself beyond his limits, (and I'm guessing as an ex-sailor he most likely didn't feel this way) he simply could have ended the workout. Given his background, one would expect that this workout shouldn't produce this sort of response, in regards to both the physical effects and the unwillingness to maintain responsibility for his own actions.
On a broader level, this speaks to the societal attitude developed and perpetuated by the recent American generations. It is as if no one is willing to accept personal fault. If there is anyone who may have influenced injury, pain, anger, sadness, or any other less-than-positive emotion, then a lawsuit needs ensue.
The major causality here is systematic. In most developed countries, a plaintiff must enter litigations prepared to compensate BOTH parties if he or she is not victorious in the courtroom. For better or worse (and it is almost assuredly worse), this is not the case in the U.S. Enter frivolous law suits and enormous legal fees, the former ending in settlement and the latter placing good business owners and working citizens in bankruptcy. Behold the American legal system.
Best of luck to Javier and Ruthless/Manassas.
The madness here is that this guy has a training regimen as a wrestler and nobody anywhere can say with any certainty that the Crossfit WOD he performed actually caused his condition.
He was obviously under stress before the WOD and was overtraining at other times. I mean, medically speaking, can a workout like this, at any level of intensity, actually cause, in and of itself, Rhabdo in a person of reasonable physical conditioning?
at #23 - I think the only branch that truly doesn't have relaxed body fat standards is the MC. I've seen Sailors, Airmen, and Soldiers that are WAAAYY over normal body weight. The majority of them were NCOs or high level officers.
Case in point - http://www.airwarriors.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6639&d=1211939802
Granted, the Navy is the only branch so far to look at CrossFit negatively. I believe this will rectify itself as it is a "knee-jerk reaction," as described before. Navy personnel are being stationed in Iraq at a much higher rate than before and this requires them to possess a higher fitness level. I hope the Navy will realize this and begin stressing physical fitness as a "must-have", rather than a "must-pass."
#161 - if you think the entire fleet is as weak as Mr. Makimba, I'd like to point out the Sailors working on the flight decks in the Persian Gulf. Besides other military personnel in theatre, I doubt anyone here is doing physical work/CF workouts in 125+ temperatures for 12 hours a day, 7 days a week. Please do not lump the failure of ONE on the entire FLEET. If you insist on doing so, please come PT with my buddies...
Mr. Makimba is clearly not coming clean on something - and while I fear he will ultimately win his case, I am forced to question his integrity.
This is too funny, I hope this video is used as evidence. Please throw out his lawsuit.
As a Navy vetern, I can attest to the lack of physical fitness and also lack of knowledge in the Navy. In my last command we did crossfit type of workouts (since I was the CO) and there were NO failures durning that time.
Crossfit works, period.
@solly comment #146 good catch and analysis on the lawsuit amout and the fact he bought a house. Probably was one of those interest only mortgages.
That Mr. Mimms pushed himself too hard in a workout and suffered serious injury seems pretty clear. So the question is simply: Was the trainer being negligent in encouraging Mr. Mimms to and/or not discouraging him from pushing so hard in a first workout? I, for one, don't think that this is such a ridiculous question to put before a court. Maybe the trainer did everything that could be reasonably expected, maybe not. Maybe Mr. Mimms is being frivolous, maybe not. They can't agree and a court with all the facts before it is far better placed to answer this question than we are.
Also, whatever anyone may think of Mr. Mimms, the references to his potential possession of parts of female anatomy insult the many outstanding female Crossfitters on this board.
Been waiting what seems like weeks for this wood.
24hrs as Rx'd.
CrossFit friends, I have bad news for you; the Vortex of Entitlement also includes the military. There are schmucks who use their service to make a dime, just like any other schmuck on the planet who is out for that Almighty Dollar. This guy is one of them; don't let him discourage you. Just recognize him for what he is; a blame someone else for his problems baby.
I am a Ph. D. student studying molecular pharmacology. I love Crossfit and i really hope that nancies like makimba here don't ruin it for the rest of us (who can handle it). I still cannot believe that was the actual workout that gave him rhabdo. Is the workout on the video scaled for kids, or is that the actual workout from which he claims to have attained that injury. That workout is a warmup for lady golfers.
Re: my comment #169
I am not giving any medical advice, just saying what MH is and what type of surgery this gentleman had based on reading the documents posted on today's forum. I should concluded that "I think" the purpose of the biopsy was to see if his case of rhabdo was caused by a genetic condition. Again, this was just an opinion based on reading the documents, I am not giving out any advice.
Did "Cindy" I think?!
For 20 min, rounds of:
Completed 17 rds (PR). My last was 13.
Didn't get a chance to read the story all the way thru...and can't cuz I'm at work but I caught the headline this morning about the Navy wrestler. This is sad. So can one file a lawsuit for men's fitness, muscle and fitness, etc. because you got hurt working out? Can I sue Saturn if I get into a car accident? Again, I didn't get to read the article so I maybe ignorant.
BTW, because of the pending tropical storm(hurricane), I may not be doing much while I'm at work. If someone would, please send the pdf to me.
If crossfit makes you disabled, I'm buying a wheelchair.
What we all need to understand is that Crossfit itself and its concept are not to blame here. The "workout" routine is not to blame. The trainer and client are to blame for this incident. It was not the method but the person in this case.
I tell my trainers all the time, "anyone can make someone hurt, get sick during a workout, make a workout hard", but it is the trainers and our system that enable us to do those things safely and intelligently to get the best results with limited time, and pain.
Just because someone is in pain or hurting does not me you did a good job. It does not mean that you accomplished your goal. Any idiot can make something hard.
Train hard but also train smart. When you are working with clients make sure you know their limits and what they are capable of doing.
Crossfit or its philosophy is not blame here. It is the trainer that prescribed the workout that is on trial here.
#4, stay at home mom... CFing since 09/2007
2 girls, 4.5 and 3, who also love to have their turn working out... nothing like running a mile around the block and keeping up with kids on bikes after a WOD (or I use it as a warm-up)
Even though it is a rest day, I am considering doing this WOD and use the burpees to count towards today's burpee challenge (day 20)
I wonder if they will present that CF Kids video in defense, complete with Lion King music and small children doing a workout that incapacitated a man for years...
I have been doing Crossfit for about 7 weeks and so far I've seen incredible results. Yesterday, I pulled a hamstring. It hurt like hell, and I even shed a couple of tears in class...This means that I'm set back for a little bit. But I'm not going to sue my trainer because I pulled a hamstring while trying to sprint...even if he did encourage me to push myself. That's kind of the idea. We all know that injuries happen during exercise. Besides, I woudn't have progressed at all without the "gentle" encouragement.
I'm sure all of you have been there. The most frustrating part is knowing I won't be able to push myself as hard for a little while so the muscle can heal. It sucks...but it is what it is. There isn't a fault here.
That wrestler is an utter waste of life. For all the trouble he's going to cause I hope he really is injured...for that matter I hope it hurts like hell. The shame alone should be excrutiating.
This is the clown in question:
#4 I'm an accountant at an insurance company (I do live in the Hartford area, afterall), hopefully soon to be part time Crossfit Affiliate Owner/Trainer.
It doesn't seem fair to me that Crossfit is blamed as a factor in this case. If a football player or any other athlete is injured/dies because the coach pushes the team too hard with workouts or practice, we don't blame football, we blame the coach.
Give me a break.
I am not military and am not in a wrestler's shape.
No way I could get Rhabdo from that.
That dude should be ashamed of himself. I would be embarrassed if I hurt myself doing in what all actuality is a warm up. This Mimms guy probably got hurt doing something else and is trying to make some money. If he really did get injured doing such a simple workout there is no way he should be wrestling for the navy.
As for Capt. so and so, he needs to stop worrying about crossfit and start focusing on a bigger problem in the Navy which is obesity and laziness.
I've been in the navy for 4 years now and I have seen some incredible athletes and worked with some modern day warriors but there is a large contigent of overweight, chain smoking, cry babies that will do anything to get out of a scheduled workout. With all do respect Capt. focus on the real problem which is the Navy's general lack of emphasis placed on physical fitness.
"We can send a young sailor with six weeks experience to Iraq but god forbid he tries doing a muscle up. He might get hurt!" -Andy
Hmmm...a couple thoughts...
1) Was that REALLY the work-out done by the plaintiff? Nothing else? The famous case of a Delta operator at a cert who got rhabdo from "Helen" with a mediocre time (FWIW I think my PR is better) reminds us that it is the intensity of the WOD in the fit but not crossfit fit that typically causes exertional or "cold" rhabdo. One could never, ever predict risk from such a minimal WOD, and if this is indeed what is done defense can parade witnesses to this fact.
2) With the exception of a possible pre-disposition to rhabdo in the future absent appropriate increase in fitness, prior rhabdo does not cause down-stream disability. Likewise, air squats and 10# DB thrusters are highly unlikely culprits in causation of back/hip/spine disability, but a single poorly done burpee could certainly cause this. Intensity is irrelevant in this case. Again, defense could surely call upon a parade of witnesses.
3) There is no such thing as a trivial or frivolous lawsuit if you are the defendant. I am a practicing physician. Each and every patient who visits, each and every surgery I perform is a potential lawsuit. This is the cruise I signed up for. So, too, is this the reality for every trainer and every owner of a gym. For better or worse this is why there is a market for liability insurance and business for attorneys to structure asset ownership. These are known risks, albeit unpleasant realities. We live in America; it is what it is.
4) The greater risk, and the unknown risk, is to Crossfit HQ and Crossfit the business entity. I have a sophisticated little business and I hang out with business folk. Coach and Lauren are, quite simply, brilliant business people along with all of their other enviable characteristics (honor, courage, honesty, humor, intelligence, beauty--at least in the case of Lauren!). I have watched them build this enterprise and marveled with each unexpected step of brilliance. Look for this to become an opportunity for a major advancement rather than a retrenchment.
As a sufferer of kidney disease this does worry me a bit. I have not experienced rhabdo but if Crossfit type intensity can cause excess stress on the kidneys I wonder if people with pre-existing kidney conditions should take special precautions. Anyone out there have any experience?
I love the name of the workout... Especially seeing it on the board at CF kids. Especially seeing all the kids pound it out.
The problem we have in America is we've got un-accountable judges willing to pay out on frivolous cases like the McDonald's coffee incident, and this. As Chad Connelley said, "Any common sense judge should have taken one look at this case and said 'McDonald's, pay this lady twenty bucks, and you, you're an idiot, get the heck out of here"
From the article:
"The injuries included rhabdomyolysis, lumbosacral spine strain and strain of the bilateral quadriceps, according to court documents. As a result of these injuries, Mimms was incapacitated, lost time from work and required surgery, court records show."
There's no friggin' way a Navy wrestler could get that injury from this workout. You can't even call thrusters with 2 x 5lb dumbbells "thrusters", more like squats. So this guy basically did 90 squats, and it gave him rhabdo? B.S. Something is missing here, like him watching everyone else doing a workout and him trying it on his own. 90 squats do not give a Navy wrestler rhabdo. No way. 90 squats might give my wife's 90 year-old grandmother rhabdo, but not an under-60 male, let alone what, this guy who's probably in his 30's at most, possibly late 20's if he entered right after high school?
Unless this guy had some serious medical problem he just recovered from, or some underlying medical problem that was unknown, or he spent the last 20 years in a wheelchair and never stood up, there's no way this workout caused his injury. Period. And any way you look at it, this dude should be smart enough to realize that this workout could not have caused his injury, without some underlying problem unknown to the trainer, or purposely withheld from the trainer.
Interesting, and unfortunate, that this happened at Ruthless. I've known several people who have checked out Ruthless and didn't want to drink Dino's Kook-Aid.
So, I went to Wikipedia, and looked at some of the Physical causes of rhabdo. Here's just one:
-Excessive muscle strain or activity: extreme physical exercise (particularly when poorly hydrated).
It's easy to blame a workout. How about blaming yourself for being an idiot and not taking care of your body before/during/after you do one of these WODs. CrossFit isn't easy by any means...heck, I just PTd my guys this morning with something similar to a WOD, they loved it, but def. worried about how difficult it was.
It all boils down to personal responsibility, and listening to your body when it says "HEY, THIS REALLY HURTS! STOP IT!"
Lately I've been thinking a lot about the whole "fitness as sport" thing. I've seen some friends get some minor injuries at the gym and take quite a bit of negative comments and reprimanding from physical therapists and doctors and also "old school" trainers. If you injured yourself, even seriously, playing beer league softball or basketball the attitude from these same health professionals would be totally different. They would most likely do everything in their power to get you back healthy so you could go bust yourself up again on the court or field. Where is the distinct negative attitude towards Crossfit and it's dangers coming from in relation to the "sh**t happens" attitude when you injure yourself in other sports.
In response to this lawsuit and what I'm saying about "fitness as sport", are people suing their football coaches when they break their leg getting tackled? Are they suing their tennis coach when they develop tennis elbow?
Just recovering from a relatively mild case of Rhabdo two weeks ago. Very frightening and painful. I wouldn't dismiss this case, or attack the individual, so quickly. The lawsuit isn't about CF, just one trainer who allegedly didn't look out for the safety of his PAYING client.
That is why I work out in my own garage gym. If I push too hard (as I did two weeks ago) I'm responsible. No disrespect to the certified trainers out there, but if I had to pay someone $60 per hour to motivate me to work out, I would have a larger problem than just physical fitness.
Dude makes me sick. Every breath he takes is wasted air.
this link is about Makimbo from the MC Times
a quote from the article: "Mimms is certainly not the only service member to induce rhabdo with a strenuous workout. An article in the February/March 2008 issue of the Medical Surveillance Monthly Report, published by the Armed Forces Health Surveillance Center, indicates the ailment is on the rise across the services.
There were 114 cases of rhabdo across the military services in 2004, four of which required hospitalization. The number rose to 159 in 2007, including 34 that required hospital visits.
No individual cause is provided for the rise in the number of rhabdo cases, and CrossFit is not mentioned in the four-page article.
The article states that troops struck with rhabdo are more likely to be from Army and Marine units, that cases tend to occur in the summer, and that blacks and other nonwhite service members are at a higher risk of suffering from the ailment."
#4 I am a screenwriter. Not exactly a physical job, I spend most of my day at a computer. But every morning at 6am, I am in my basement or outside in the yard doing the WOD.
#88 Chris S. My father taught at Albion for 35 years before his retirement a few years ago. I was born there. Go Britons!
Whatever the judgement on this lawsuit, it will surely serve as a warning to affiliates. I would imagine affiliate owners are all scrambling to develop SOPs for protecting themselves from these sorts of cases. Scary times.
On a happier note, my five year old daughter called me over to the ringset in the backyard yesterday, beaming. "Watch this!" she said, and proceeded to crank out three wobbly, but successful, pull-ups. "I'm doing Crossfit!" I nearly wept with pride.
glad to have this rest day. the tendons and ligaments in my arms are killing me from yesterdays deadlifts... just started crossfitting on Monday. Tabata kicked my butt. i was excited for my deadlift results though: maxed out at 440lbs. and i havent lifted a weight in over 1.5 years. i've been doing mainly bodyweight stuff for the past year or so from home: pullups, pushups, dips, pistols, and so on....
this Navy guy sounds like a joke, there's no way that this CrossFit kids workout injured him, IF he really did suffer rhabdo.
Who knows what happened to this guy? Hopefully we find out more, and then learn from it. In any case, it sucks to hurt yourself doing something that doesn't seem that dangerous. This spring I broke a toe when I was passing my backpack from one hand to the other. I dropped it, and the corner of my notebook computer landed squarely on my right pinky toe. That said, it didn't occur to me to try to sue Sony for producing such dangerous Vaios.
166 ken c
LoL. By the way at 2:15 of the you tube...check out the kipping pull ups in the background - great form!!
and 182 - what is the burpee challenge, this one has passed me by.
# 4 - I'm a professor of philosophy.
That said, I can still run a 6 min/mile and hang in there with the decent crossfitters.
Great to see this diverse fitness community.
As an attorney that represents people who are truly injured or killed by somebody else's negligence, this story angers me because the claim looks baseless. But just as we can all see through it, so can a jury. Let's not be so quick to attack the American legal system, which although imperfect, is the best in the world. Just as this "sailor" couldn't handle the workout, his lawsuit won't stand up to six people in a jury either.
That just goes to show you that success in a different sport does not always transfer to CrossFit. Plus that guy`s a little girl. Actually he`s less than a little girl because he can`t survive a little girls workout.
He`s lucky it wasn`t Fran!
Today's WOD at CF East Bay will be preceeded by "Makimba" as a warm-up, but I need to add more to said warm-up or my athletes will wonder why I'm being so easy on them.
When the "Picker"/Navy article was first posted here I made a couple of comment posts. One of them so inflamed a reader, that they called my office irate and yelling. They then called back to apologize for the yelling, but said they still stood by what they said.
Obviously Crossfit is challenging peoples beliefs about fitness and generating emotions. Whenever someones "belief" system is challenged it is met by violent opposition. Or in this case, legal opposition. Anyone doing Crossfit knows it is near impossible for this ex-Navy wrestler to have been injured by such a workout. There is more information that is being left out, or something missing. Do you agree?
The burden of proof is on this ex-Navy wrestler. However, in a legal system gone awry, such as the one we have here in the good ol' U.S of A. anything preposterous is possible. I hope all the facts come out and reasonableness prevails. If not, affiliates may have to start including specific disclaimers in their initial paperwork. (Probably a good idea anyway.)
Regardless of any of this, as a Crossfitting Doctor myself it is important for everyone to always be as safe as possible and use good form. Risk is inherent in anything we do, let's not increase it unnecessarily. This legal argument could just as easily be "Self Responsibility vs. Victimization" the same argument that has been going on since lawyers first walked the earth and reporters "reported" on it.
CAUTION for anyone writing anything on this web site. It appears, as in the article, that reporters will take anything out of context to manipulate facts and "create" a story. I believe the reference to "getting shot in the back..." was taken out of context and not in the spirit of the intent of the post. But that doesn't matter when a "story" needs to be told.
Crossfit gang, here is my point. My profession has suffered from attacks ranging from legal to political to professional and still gets attacked today. Now regardless of your thoughts, feelings or understanding about my profession (BTW: Chiropractic) it is fair to say that the "Establishment" is typically down on what they are not up on. As much as I would like to say these attacks are going to go away, it is more likely they will increase in proportion to the continued success of Crossfit. As my own profession has grown and prospered it has been attacked viciously by the medical profession (maybe even some of the same that attack Crossfit, who knows).
What fuels these attacks (In my humble opinion) ego of people who didn't think of Crossfit themselves, conflicts of interest (like medical doctors who benefit financially from bashing on chiro.'s, so too are their folks in the fitness ranks who stand to gain financially if Crossfit would just go away), ignorance, misunderstanding and baseless emotions.
Crossfitters, Coach is on to something powerful here and we stand to benefit from his Crossfit. It behooves us all to step it up and represent it properly with professional tact and decorum. Avoid getting "sucked" into emotional and ignorant arguments and attack back from a negative perspective. I goofed up when I made that previous post about Mr. Picker and I need to hear this the most. People who attack Crossfit want us to get defensive attack back and lower ourselves to their level. Let's not fall for this trick. Let's all represent Crossfit properly and let our actions be our "proof of fact".
Onwards and upwards Crossfitters and a shout-out to my new Crossfit home base, Crossfit North Atlanta, finally some instruction to augment my self taught Crossfit skills. No rabdo and still no "puckie". : ))
I'm 52, and after years of being out of shape, I started working out two years ago. I started CrossFit in May. I am very, very careful. I'm too old to get hurt now. But, my back and neck no longer hurts. I sleep better. I probably never did more than 12 pullups in my life. Now I can do 12 in a row, and a 150 in a workout. CrossFit works.
But this guy got hurt bad. Maybe he shouldn’t sue, but he wound up in big trouble. Coach warned about Rhabdo. I read the warnings and as many Crossfit articles I could before I started CrossFit. Unlike many of you, I'm not a former athlete, so I have no expectations to live up to. I have no previous level of fitness, so I don't try to do what I did when I was 25, cuz anyone can sit around. What happened to this guy should be a warning. No matter what your previous level of fitness, CrossFit should be approached with care.
Hmmmm I don't know what to say.... I'm speechless!
I've been reading everyone's posts and the more I read, the more I get pissed off! As a "SURVIVOR" (and I use that term lightly) of Rhabdo, a condition that I suffered from 2 months ago, I don't believe this guy one bit. I spent almost 6 days in the hospital after doing 150 GHDs. (In regards to comments about knowing when to stop - You can't feel rhabdo and I wasn't hurting during the workout. It was only the next day that I couldn't walk.) Mind you I had only started crossfit 1 week prior. Stupid - YES, but the condition is legit. I'm 24 and I consider myself an athlete as I still play lacrosse competitively. The condition is real, so be careful. None the less, I left the hospital 6 days later and I walked out under my own power - only to start training a week later -slowly getting back into it, of course. There was NO PERMENANT damage and I can say now that I am STRONGER than ever. Crossfit is the real deal and I spread the word about it every chance I get.
From what this story tells us it doesn't seem like this guy is telling the truth. There is no way that this workout did what he is claiming. It's just another person trying to make a quick buck.
I'm stuck paying $1500 bucks for my hospital stay, but do you see me trying to hold anyone, but myself, liable? This is truly pissing me off, as you can tell.
Something needs to be done and I'm sure it will. Everyone gets what they ask for!
3:25 As RXD......W/ a helluva' hangover.
I'm going to stand by my "set up" hypothesis. The case may have been filed last November, but the most recent filing--the one the Military Times chose to make news by covering it--is from August 8th. The article was written with a very clear New York Times style partisanship with enough of a dose of alternative viewpoints to create deniability that is plausible to some. The lawsuit cites NSCA guidelines for weight training, and appears a prima facie attempt to "falsify" CrossFit using not empirical methods but the coercive power of our judicial system. This is leftism 101, although I'm in no way alleging an actual political motive, merely the spitefulness of wounded vanity, egotism, an exaggerated need for control, and parochial blindness and contempt for the new.
The article stated that the program was under review for safety, but details were--unsurprisingly--not available. This is, of course, because any evaluations which will be done will consist in consultations with self proclaimed Subject Matter Experts, who will have read about CrossFit, looked at the Main Page, found it inconsistent with their Nsaca, Acsm, or Graduate training, and condemned it on that basis alone.
I found it interesting as well that, despite his alleged injuries sustained something like 3 years ago, Mimms was able to complete his tour of duty with the Navy without any particular medical restrictions, being released this past May, if I'm recalling correctly.
No doubt it would be very dangerous to underestimate the potential problems this could create. At the same time, the preponderance of evidence I am seeing should cause a fit jury to acquit the trainer. Hopefully he gets good counsel.
doctor? you're a chiropractor. I mean, I'm sure your school was rigourous in its own way. Nonetheless...
Not to make light of Mr. Lopez's or Coach Glassman's possible legal troubles, but this is so funny! I loved the CF Kids video with Nathan Lane as the soundtrack! Here's to hoping this all works out fine for the CrossFit folks involved and the legal system realizes the lack of merits of Mr. Mimms's complaints.
All exercise should be approached with care (as another poster noted), but wow... this is such a joke of a lawsuit. Show the kids video and then watch the judge toss the lawsuit.
I am now suffering from Rhabdo in both eyes after reading the legal documents from this case. Just amazing! This case is a perfect example of why we need a law on the books in the US to penalize someone for filing frivolous lawsuits.
I dont even know where to begin with this one....
This sounds like a group of people who don't know what they're doing and a guy unwilling to say "when." Being in the Army, I'm very familiar with people always telling you to push harder and harder, telling you to "suck it up," "drive on," "embrace the suck." Some members of the military adopt an almost cultish attitude towards painful workouts. The way I deal with it is by saying, "Go to hell. I know what my body will handle and when to stop." If this guy was in the Navy for 11 years he should know what his body can and cannot take. It's his responsibility for doing things that he couldn't handle. Suing someone else for injuries sustained through a non-forced activity is pathetic and embarrassing.
Clearly another case of someone not taking responsibility for their own actions. At what point do you tell yourself, "I am the dumbass that decided to do the workout?" Did someone put a gun to his head?
I'm finding the vitriol on here a little much!
I'm as anti-dodging-personal-responsibility as anyone, but slimy lawsuits aside the guy has just reason to be upset...
People making fun of the workout need to acknowledge that anything done with maximum intensity -- even 10 pound thrusters -- is just that: INTENSE. The comments are full of "burpees are hell" comments several times per month. Virtually any workout "for time" has the potential to be totally devastating if you go for broke.
Trainers have already expressed concern about how hard it is to be positive that they aren't pushing someone too far. It's hard to say without having been there whether the trainer in this case did miss some warning signs -- and there's the rub.
There's already a lot of anti-intense workout sentiment out there -- let's not blow this chance to show that crossfitter's ARE concerned about the problem. The comments section has been quoted before and will be quoted again!
I like the workouts, but heaven help anyone who dares to disagree--angry email attacks, threats, screaming phone calls, name plastered all over the web--it's a shame because I'll bet properly measured, science will support the efficacy of CF. Having a mob name-call and threaten people is just silly.
@ Comment #120. Use some weight lifting gloves. I tore my hands open in a couple of places while scrapping glue off of my floors (replacing hardwood flooring). The gloves helped to protect my hands to let them heal and kept me from bleeding on everything I touched.
@ Comment #131. The Navy has a different mentality. They have a superb mindset of 'get the mission done'. I attribute this to shipboard mentality. When you are hundreds of miles from the nearest land, the task fixing the problems that you have takes on a new meaning. I will agree that many of them are in horrible physical shape. But, as an Army guy, I can appreciate the superb sense of mission accomplishment that most of them have.
I am with Andy #100 on this folks: This is a shot across the bow for affiliates. For me it is quite depressing: people like Mr. Mimms and his attorney fail to take responsibility for their own actions and feel it necessary to punish good people.
CrossFit's success will attract detractors and opportunists. And occassionally, we'll get both in one package like Mr. Mimms.
Our little affiliate would be terribly burdened by (and might not survive) a nuisance lawsuit such as the one described in today's post. As a result, we will alter our procedures and tighten up our waivers.
I suggest other affiliates do the same.
wouldnt he of signed a waiver upon entering the gym, that voids this lawsuit
A former colleague of mine died of a heart attack while jogging in the summer heat. Perhaps his widow should sue God for making the sun shine so brightly, tilting the axis too much towards the sun in the summer, and for not reminding his mother in a dream to tell him not to run that day. When will people take responsibility for their own actions?
10 lbs DB´s? Rhabdo? LOL!!!
Re comment #226: You can sign all the waivers in the world. That doesn't prevent someone from bringing a lawsuit against the gym. It may factor in as evidence, suggesting that Mr. Mimms understood some of the dangers and WILLINGLY undertook them. But it's no guarantee against a lawsuit.
I like many others are curious to know how this seemingly easy workout could have caused rhabdo. So I did a little research on rhabdo. Found some interesting information on causes of rhabdo from the Professional Guide to Diseases:
"The disorder may be caused by any condition that results in damage to skeletal muscle. Rhabdomyolysis may result from blunt trauma; extensive burn injury; viral, bacterial, or fungal infection (such as legionnaire’s disease or, especially, influenza type A or B); prolonged immobilization; near electrocution or near drowning; metabolic or genetic factors; drug therapy; or toxins. Heavy exercise in children may result in rhabdomyolysis. Other causes include shaken baby syndrome, exposure to extreme cold, heatstroke, and snakebite."
There was also another reference that stated some cases were also related to possession of a sickle cell trait, and another that gave a list of 27 potential causes that included many of the ones listed in the above quote. It appears that rhabdo can rear its ugly head for many different reasons. So perhaps there might be another reason behind why his case of rhabdo was so intense after a short workout, especially if he his still having lingering problems three years after the fact.
Forgot to add that maybe the medical community should do a little more on their end as well.
I have also heard that doing tough workouts post drinking binges can trigger rhabdo. I am of the opinion that while it has been shown from empirical evidence that crossfit has preceded rhabdo, I think that the actual CAUSE of rhabdo is probably much more complex and probably involves multiple factors yet to be explained or discovered. That is, crossfit might not even be the main factor in the rhabdo.
For example, we use uranium as a component to an atomic weapon we used in Hiroshima, but we needed to do things to the uranium as well as do some pretty complex engineering around the uranium to create the bomb. Sure, you need the uranium to cause the nuclear explosion, but when uranium is packaged by itself do we label uranium "danger: explosive"? We don't. Did uranium cause the nuclear explosion? Maybe, but I would probably point my finger at the US Military, the Manhattan Project and the Enola Gay before I blamed the poor uranium for the whole mess.
This is just like the situation where people thought for decades that dietary fat was the CAUSE of heart disease, when we now know that it isn't the dietary fat that causes heart disease, and curtailing fat intake too much (especially certain kinds of fat) can be harmful in the quest for a healthy heart and circulatory system.
Not much is really known about the mechanism behind rhabdo, although that hasn't stopped civil courts from giving large cash rewards in the past.
2 cents worth pt II
I guess he should of stuck with the elliptical trainer in gold's! What a loser!
So if I'm a soccer trainer and I tell someone to kick the ball and he hits the ground and breaks his toe. Does he get to sue me and the soccer ball company?
I'm 44/150#s been doing CF for 2 years. Always been in good shape. More cross training due to my attention deficit personality. Until CF I never did oly lifts besides deads and squats. Never attempted them before. Never thought I could do them or needed to do them. To me they are the most demanding. The exercises in this suit are not demanding whatsoever. I push myself but also know my limitations. If this suit goes forward nothing is safe from frivolous shake downs. As I stated before frivolous suits equates to thievery!
Someone in the earlier posts was curious to the professions of CF'ters. Finance management for large corp. I see way too many frivolous lawsuits. Most of the time we give in to a settlement since a) costs way too much in a court case. b) juries hate large corps as well as city gov agencies since they view them as impersonal entities as well as Robin Hood syndrome.
One of the issues with your statement is that most of your junior and a lot of senior Marines/ soldiers/ Swabees/ ect. Don't know their limit and assume that since it hurts a little bit or is unconfortable that they can't do it. That is the main problem with American society as a whole, if it is unconfortable then it has to be bad. How about building some mental and physical discipline and just plain "sucking it the F*&$# up".
Ur Rah, KILL
Three rounds, 15-12- and 9 reps, for time of:
135 pound Thruster
115 pound thrusters
sub pull ups for muscle-ups 2:1
As with any organization, branch of service, or corporation, there are individuals that will bring discredit or shame through their actions. The United States Navy is no exception. We have a lot of great leaders and we have our share of dirt bags that are lazy, fat, and only care about themselves. The Navy's Core Value's (our guiding principles) are HONOR, COURAGE, and COMMITTMENT. I do not know this Ex-sailor so I can not comment on his character. I don't care to ever know him, he is no longer a member of My Navy.
If anyone want to see an example of how a Navy Chief PT's, meet me at Bolling AFB Crossfit room on Wednesdays @ 0600. All are welcome.
Navy Chief, Navy Pride!
i remember a kid in our gym getting rhabdo in the 80s. it turns out that he was sickle cell trait and that was a predisposing factor (he had an off the charts cpk value)
as far as the mcdonalds lawsuit...the 2.7 million was reduced to 460-480k and then even lower with a confidential settlement
I'm going to start suing everyone who gets a better time than me on the WOD's...which is actually just about everyone, so watch out.
"makimba" - 3:26
#213 - looks like you're the first, you'll be hearing from my lawyer.
Oh yeah, these suit will be on the grounds that I've suffered major emotional pain & suffering due to sucking at CrossFit & life...same as said plaintiff in the report.
In reality, I'd be very surprised if this suit ever sees the courtroom. At some point in the not too distant future, the insurance carrier for the defendant will make an ecomomic decision to make a settlement offer high enough for plaintiff to accept, in lieu of mounting costs to defend the case, and the ever present, albeit often remote possibility of a runaway jury which could award plaintiff more than defendant's policy limits creating a possible additional action for Insurance Bad Faith for not having settled the claim sooner, when opportunity was present.
The cost to defend meritless cases all the way to trial is very high. Costs include defense attorney's billing (usually hourly), court reporter costs, mediation costs, expert witness fees, independent medical examination fees. When comparing the cost to defend a case to the cost to settle, irregardless of case merit, the cost to settle is usually lower. Hence, the ecomomic decision is made to offer settlement value, as opposed to actual and reasonable jury value of the meritless case.
What is not factored into the "ecomonic decision" is the long-term effects of settling, rather than defending meritless suits. In settling a meritless case for an amount that allows the attorney and plaintiff to profit, the frivolous lawsuit is rewarded, and perpetuated, for the plaintiff attorney will now be more inclined to file more meritless lawsuits. Over time, this general trend for insurers and defendants to settle rather than try these types of cases has resulted in our often quipped litigious culture, which typically rewards people for being whiney, pathetic victims, a major factor in the often cited "victim mentality" of today's society.
If more defendants, incurance companies, and corporations took stands against meritless cases, and were willing to incur the cost of defense to allow juries to decide their fate as was intended by our Judicial System, I believe we would see a long-term reduction in these types of cases, and less whiney, lazy, pathetic victim types looking to blame others for their shortcomings in life, and looking to profit off of insurance claims and lawsuits which ultimately is paid for by the vast majority of upstanding and ethical citizens who don't partake in these unethical ways.
#4 Active duty in the USN, embarrassed by what Mr Mimms and many more like him convey about the physical preparedness of our people.
Coach and Lauren, thanks for posting such extensive documentation on the suit. I just heard about it recently and had too many questions... not that they've now been answered though.
While I'm reluctant to call conspiracy, I agree with Barry that something doesn't quite add up. It would not surprise me to find that Mr Mimms had overestimated and misrepresented his level of conditioning at the time.
I'm very interested to see how this plays out.
As an aside, it turns out that the type II diabetes epidemic in our country isn't due to a national carb binge and lack of insulin control (Sorry, Dr Sears)...
It's because there's arsenic in the water! It's not your fault, people! There's arsenic in the water!
I'd like to see the correlation between As concentration by region and incidence of diabetes.
Firstly, I'm disappointed with many of the posters on this board. The people I've read and met from CF have been the most caring, and wonderful individuals. I've had complete strangers take literally hours out of their day to help me learn more about fitness, and the proper way to train.
Today, I'm reading nasty, negative, and unfounded vitriol. Was this an easy workout for the CF universe? Most definitely. Does that mean that we should disparage this man because of his documented injuries? Definitely not.
It seems that Mr. Mimms suffered rhabdo, which may or may not have caused permanent injuries. Regardless, the etiology of such injuries will be determined by a Court of Law and jury of his peers. Both sides will present testimony and the truth will come out.
The legal issues as presented in the Complaint concern the alleged negligent actions of Mr. Lopez, and using his employee status to impute liability onto Ruthless Training and the Mannassas Gym. The Plaintiff is not blaming Crossfit, and is not suing CF. His lawsuit, on it's face, is not frivolous.
Anyone who has done a CF style workout should understand how tough it is. We have no information regarding Mr. Mimms level of fitness before this training, nor do we know of the actions taken by Mr. Lopez during the training session. Until those facts are known, the majority of these posts concerning Mr. Mimms testicular fortitude and manliness are simply reflecting badly upon the authors.
I am truly shocked by some of these comments on this page, written with no knowledge of the circumstances of the situation, outside of the documents filed with the Court. I think the majority of Crossfitters are better than that.
Additionally, to those of you looking up Mr. Mimms personal information on the internet, and publishing it here, for shame. That is not how someone should act. This site has enamored me from the beginning because it is not like the rest of the internet. People treat others with respect and kindness. In the forums you need to use your real name. This isn't an anonymous internet message board so a lot of you should stop acting like the internet tough guys that frequent such.
This should serve as a warning to you all, but not as Crossfitters, but as those employed in the fitness industry. Crossfit has been defined as "Fitness as a Sport." And I think this is appropriate because of the inherent competition and striving for faster times and more weight. As such, there is a need to carefully monitor those that you train, not only for their safety, but for the safety of your business.
As someone so eloquently stated earlier, men will die for points. This is true in Crossfit. Extra care (and a valid waiver) needs to be taken in order to ensure that people don't hurt themselves. Now, the CF trainers I've had an experience of working with have been phenomenal, and I've never felt pressured to do something I can't (although I've been pressured to do something I could). I would suggest that for those new to the CF regimen, there be a mandatory two-week break in period, where - regardless of the level of fitness - there is allowed to be a brief acclimation to CF style exercises.
I think the biggest reason CF is at risk for litigation like this is that it is such a hard fitness regimen, and many trainers enjoy beating the crap out of their trainees (and they should!). The problem is where trainers take someone new to the program, and want to "shock and awe" them with its toughness.
Fellow CF attorneys,
I'm not sure if this is viable, but maybe some of us could get together and maybe put together an article for a future CF journal concerning the legal risks and liability for affiliates and CF trainers?
#172 - Good point, and I did not mean to claim every person in the fleet is out of shape. I know first hand that the flight deck guys are in the gym all the time. Most of the crew serves below the flight deck, and most ships don't even have a flight deck. There are many fit sailors to be found in the fleet, but I'm sure you would agree there are far too few. There are also an alarming (and growing) number of sailors of FEP. This is what the Navy needs to be focusing on.
"Makimba" is probably a great workout for kids. "Makimba" is also more difficult than most divisional/departmental PT sessions.
Saying exercise causes Rhabdomyolysis is like saying food causes obesity--know your limits.
The U.S. maternal mortality rate rose to 13 deaths per 100,000 live births in 2004, according to statistics released this week by the National Center for Health Statistics. Makimba's mom should have known the risk involved and opted not to give birth to such a dumb a$$.
#4 I'm a contract pilot for the Army. Retired from the Army after 30 years.
There are two kinds of people in the world. My buddy: off to be a Navy pilot pees blood for two days and says "get some." The other one: IT1 who gets rhabdo and has to sue.
I'm interested to see the outcome in court ...
It is very disturbing at how some people blame others for their own failures. Where is the common sense?
You would think as an adult you know what you can and cant do. It sounds like this person had something already wrong with him.
As trainers,we can not see what is going on inside someone. Some clients are deceiving- They dont appear to be struggling at all...
Its very important that you talk to your clients before and get a history of previous and existing conditions/injuries. Know as much as possible about your clients.Ask them before any workouts how they are feeling. During the exercise, while encouraging them you can ask how they are doing? and so forth among other precautions, now we must advise them of rhabdo and encourage hydration during and post workouts. A signed waiver helps a little too but it doesnt necessarily protect you against a lawsuit. But doing all these things together helps.
This is great that Coach brought it to our attention. We can all learn from this.. We all feel for you Coach and wish you and your family the best of luck. We all support you...
At least it appears most Military members of this list agree with Crossfit and support the foundations of a taking fitness to another level. God bless our Military personnel always!
I wonder if that puss was taking a Statin drug at the time? Statins can put you on the fast track to rhabdo. The vid is hilarious.
It just blows me away the posts defending the suit since the workout was so minimal. I guess everything is fair game in a shake down suit.
As a sailor, this sort of crap really grinds my gears. If anything, the judge should look at this guy, call him an idiot, and kick the case out of court. NO ONE HOLDS A GUN TO YOUR HEAD TO DO THESE WORKOUTS!
i agree with most of what you say. its the same point i was making in my earlier post. trainers be careful in how hard you push the newbies. having said that,
makimba s. mimms still = pu$$y.
ya see, i can see suing a gym because some defective machine caved in on me but you just shouldn't sue a gym because you worked out too hard. its like a guy calling the police because he got beat up by a his wife or girlfriend. not that a girl couldn't beat me up but if she did i sure as hell wouldn't tell anybody about it.
Pathetic. This guy knew what he was getting into. Anybody who knows Crossfit knows that the workouts are like that. As if the instructor would tell him absolutely no rest. I'm sure this is only 1/2 of the story. This is a joke. GET A LIFE!
Makes me wonder what the real reason was behind him leaving the Navy? All of a sudden he completes a CrossFit workout and is disabled? I am former Military, currently working in Law Enforcement, and complete very rigorous strength and conditioning workouts. Never had any problems!
#251 - ken
You see I would hold off on that insult until the facts come out. We don't know if this guy walked into the gym for his first CF WOD and completed this thing in 1:15.
We also don't know the actions of Mr. Lopez. Like I said, this is an easy WOD, but I stand by my argument that we can't pass judgment until all the facts are in.
There is a valid cause of action in this suit as Mr. Mimms is claiming that Mr. Lopez was negligent in his personal training. Additionally, it appears that Mr. Mimms did suffer some kind of injury from said training (although I'm sure the defense will attempt to contest this). The end result of the litigation will revolve around:
1) Was Mr. Lopez negligent in his actions?;
2) Were Mr. Lopez's actions through the scope of his employment with Ruthless Training and the Manassas Gym?;
3) Was Mr. Mimms contributorily negligent, i.e. go on a bender the night before, refuse medical treatment, etc.?;
4) Did Mr. Mimms assume the risk of injury when he went to Mr. Lopez for training?
If Mr. Lopez was negligent, and Mr. Mimms did not assume the risk or contribute to his own injury, then Mr. Mimms deserves an award.
Just because it was a CF WOD doesn't mean the trainer should be exculpated from any cause of action. There are bad trainers everywhere, including in CF (although I've yet to meet any).
Unfortunate, but not 500K worth, maybe his trainer owes his a free handle of gatorade
As a former Marine, I'd like to note that the Marine Corps is a department of the Navy.....the MEN'S department.
I question whether Mr. Mimms was in combat-ready conditioning if this workout did him in. In this case, he could be charged under the UCMJ for neglegence of government property due to his lack of physical maintenance.
In all seriousness, I hope things turn out well for Javier Lopez. As a part of this community, I know that his intentions were not for injury.
I could go on and on, but I would only be echoing most of the comments that have already been made.
Happy rest day, everybody. Drink lots of water (for the next 5 days, apparently).
well said ken, well said.
Idea: lets antagonize coach into comming up with some really hellacious WODs for these next few series.
Time to thin the ranks.
I need your professional help. My daughter now claims she is having trouble playing video games as her arms are a little shaky from the morning's workout. David.
I agree it's strange that Navy leadership is reacting this way. Especially since so many of its flagship sailors, the SEALs, are CrossFiters. Perhaps they should ask themselves what they would do if this happened to a SEAL during training. Change SEAL training? "ish don't dink so".
Fact is, Makimba either didn't know wtf he was doing (which he should) or didn't know his limits. It is nonetheless HIS fault, not CF's.
Adam #58, LOL on kids' drawing / writing ability. Spot on, brother. Tell it like it is!
I would hate to see anything bad happen to CrossFit but....
It seems to that Dr. Clarkson's suggestions on behalf of the claimant at page 22 of the pdf are very reasonable, and for CrossFit trainer's it might be prudent to incorporate them into their business operations.
I started CrossFit in the off-season break from varsity college rowing. My first workout destroyed me (I think its was suitably called "3 bars of death" - still my favourite). I read over much of the website before the workout including what seemed then like the strange and scarry material on rhabdo. Through the workout I paid attention to my body - but still felt sick (in a good way) afterward.
If I had a trainer who said "3 bars of death go!" I might very well have hurt myself. As I might hae the first time I got into a scrum on the rugby pitch. But before I did that I had a lot of coaching and was guided through "engagement" and "driving" before I did either of these for the first time.
Anyway, a warning for first-timers, especially by people taking the money of first-timers for training advice (i.e. trainers) sounds reasonable to me.
I also found your "sister" comment offensive. I do CrossFit, serve in the US Air Force, and have led many other Airmen in PT sessions based on CrossFit workouts, workouts that challenged them both physically and mentally.
Being a woman doesn't automatically make someone weak.
This is a pretty ham fisted smear job by the Navy. The most important element of the case, that is Mr. Mimms personal responsibility was not mentioned at any time in this article.
The lawsuit is both scary, pathetic, and looks suspiciously like a predatory money driven lawsuit.
I'm glad this guy didn't participate in the blue to green program (Navy to Army transpher program). Mr. Mimms would not have been an asset to the Army.
This guy must have been in terrible physical condition when he started. And it begs the question, if he was seriously hurting, why didn't he stop?
For those that read post #210 the point I wanted to make is misunderstanding and ignorance surround us as well as discrediting people. The plaintiff in this case will parade "expert witness" after "expert witness" to prove their point. Who would pay an "expert witness" to testify other than expected, anyway? None of them will have done the prescribed WOD or even attempted it. I hope the best for the trainer, hopefully he will not be saddled with Mr. Mimms debt and poor judgment. The fight isn't about right or wrong it is about a "preponderance of evidence" and the jury's decision in relationship to this trainer. Crossfit is not on trial, hence fellow Crossfitters calling him names is unnecessary.
I mention I'm a chiropractor and 5 posts later as in #215. I'm maligned and discredited for my schooling. "Doctor?" as if I'm not a doctor because I'm a chiropractor. Same tactic used a million times before against my profession and the same tactic any good attorney uses to discredit a "witness" or "expert witness". This strategy was used against me in a recent court testimony, suffice to say the attorney didn't discredit me. Like I accidentally signed up for chiro school thinking I was going off to medical school...funny. No, I made a conscious choice to go to chiro school and not medical school...too funny. : ))
FYI: Elaine #215 poster- my curriculum is the same as any medical curriculum for the first 2 years (you'll need better info to discredit my schooling and profession than that). My program differs because I do not prescribe drugs or do surgery. Unfortunately, you live in a country that idolizes drugs and surgery holding them to be the "only" means to "health". You probably experienced few if any alternatives. Help somebody without drugs and surgery and your considered a "witch doctor" or "cultist". Get "cut" on or take "chemical concoctions" and your in agreement with the majority. Do a Fran or Eva and your "drinking cool-aid". Hmmmmm??????????
See Crossfitters, my point is made within 5 posts of my comment. Ignorance is abound about Crossfit because it doesn't fit the common mold (just like ignorance of my profession). Welcome to my world.
People attack Crossfit and discredit it based on false assumptions, false associations, improper use and (possibly) poor representation. Whether people discredit Crossfit, my beloved profession, or any number of controversial topics, it is fair to say that most are ignorant and some are just plain malicious (It can be hard to tell the difference sometimes-Mr. Picker ignorant, Mimms malicious, post #215 probably ignorant-I like you because you crossfit though). Ignorance doesn't make you stupid it just means your uninformed.
Maliciousness involves deeper issues we will not cover here. Its up to us as individuals to challenge our own belief systems and form better distinctions. In order for someone to accept their own viewpoint they must be in agreement with another, even if the facts are contrary. that is a reason people are ignorant in "herds". Standing out from the crowd and your a target for "rocks". How long did it take civilization to accept the "earth is round theory"? Thanks for all your help with that one "organized religion".
Comparing Crossfit to other types of exercise (or Chiropractic to Medicine) is comparing apples to oranges. They both "do what they do" period. If you like the benefits of the results of Crossift then keep doing it, same as medicine same as chiropractic, Physical therapy, whatever floats your boat. Talking "smack" about things people don't understand is about people's ego's and feeling good about themselves by putting others down. It is rarely about a rational discussion of the facts to discern and benefit from the knowledge in question.
MY SOAPBOX: Crossfit has its place in professional training (fire/police/military) sports, lifestyle, physical culture and other aspects of life/fitness because it touches on so many different aspects of fitness. There will always be those who misapply it or suffer unintended consequences. Just like people take too many medications and die (over 100,000-250,000 per year are attributed to drug/surgery related deaths-estimated figures changes every year), improperly operate their vehicle and get injured, or die in a at home accident. Have we outlawed drugs, surgery, homes or cars? No, because people accept these injuries and deaths as "par for the course". Crossfit will have more Mimms despite all of our efforts to the contrary, people will come to acept this as par for the course, attorneys will attempt to assign blame and on life will go. Time will prove the benefits of Crossfit and for those who do not believe or understand I will say the same thing to those that do not believe or understand what I do.
It works, you may not exactly have it figured out why it works, but I know how it works. Now you have a choice, you can benefit from this understanding and apply this knowledge or you can wait until you understand it and suffer in ignorance from obtainable benefits. Regardless of the talk and rhetoric something will need to be done (properly) to experience and therefore understand what I'm talking about to begin with in the first place. One cannot "talk" themselves into experiencing the benefits of Crossfit. (Nor can they "talk" themselves into experiencing the benefits of what I do professionally) but the world is full of Mr. Picker's, Makimba Mimms and Elaine's (Post #215). These people provide a contrary viewpoint to challenge ourselves, our resolve and our commitment to our own beliefs. I think it is fair to say just because Mr. Picker or Mimms has something negative to say about Crossfit isn't going to stop us from doing Crossfit. And #215 poster Elaine, sorry I'm not going to "pack up shop", throw away 8 years of my schooling, thousands of hours of intense study and quit chiropractic just because you "think" my education is sub par and shouldn't call myself a Doctor (nor do I think you feel that way, your challenging your own beliefs by testing mine-I have no hard feelings for your comment and wish you well, I hope you do not misunderstand any of my references to your post, all the best to you my dear fellow Crossfitter). Handshake, Hug.
Crossfitters these "digs" make you stronger mentally just like Crossfit makes you stronger physically. I say BRING IT ON!!
3,2,1...GO! Recover Day, Recover Day, Recover Day. : ))
The use of the CrossFit name in the lawsuit implies that the program is at fault along with the defendant. His lawsuit is asking for money to compensate himself, not the U.S. Government who paid for the medical treatment. I doubt that the trainer forced this guy to do anything. He may have strongly encouraged him to push himself, but that is what all trainers do. They tell their clients to work harder to ensure that they put the best effort forward.
We are not talking about some uninitiated person walking off the street and joining a gym. We are talking about someone that is (was at the time) active duty military (which implies some level of exposure to physical fitness) and according to the news article had prior knowledge of exercise induced rhabdomyalisis.
I believe the disdain expressed by most posters here is that he is actually suing for something he did to himself. Trainers don't hold a gun to your head. He was able to quit at anytime. He himself knew of rhabdo. Rhabdo can affect any person at any fitness level if the conditions are right. You could probably get rhabdo in an aerobics class if the right series of moves were conducted, Boot Camp too.
I believe that most of the name calling on the board comes from the recognition of how ridiculous this lawsuit is. Perhaps some of it is based on the ease of the workout itself, because it is not even close to a demanding military physical fitness training event and he was active duty at the time. I'm calling him a pu$$y for not taking responsibility for managing his own physical ability, and what looks clearly like money digging. This happened two and a half years ago. The only people that lost money and time for his rhabdo was the U.S. Navy, and I don't see them asking for $350,000, or him paying for the medical bill. So what is the money for? He wouldn't sue the Navy if he had rhabdo in basic training and you could get it there just as easy.
This board is here to discuss the article and opine. That is what we do on rest days in case you haven't noticed. The subject is fair game and the moderator can delete if he/she thinks the post is objectionable.
In regards to Makimba...
When a man no longer needs personal responsibility he has given up one of the things that makes him a man. Freedom comes at a price, you just have to be man enough to take responsibility for it!
Guys and Gals-
Remember to have passion. The truth will come out of this. We know that it is very unlikely that this happened to this person. Let the court system handle it and then, when it is all said and done, we can stand proud that we are right. That will be more fulfilling then any forum post can do.
The last thing we want is to sound ruthless and uncaring because that is not who we are or what we represent. The truth of the matter is, coach and others does a great job of teaching how to exercise properly and what to look out for. In the end, I believe they have done what is necessary. Those of you who are currently doing Crosfit or teaching it, continue with your passion. But be careful not to sound too harsh.
If the state of our military is such that this workout caused this harm to a "fit" person by military standards then the military needs to up the protocol. Besides, I know for a fact that the Navy Seal, Army Rangers and others workout and are put through a more rigorous workout then this one. All the defense attorney will have to do is prove that the current state of the Special Forces does train people harder then this workout and they either pass or quit (the same options this person had).
Lastly, lets stop with the "women, girly" comments. I have seen video of some women that could whop my but in Crossfit. Lets not degrade women by labeling this person as one. Clearly, we have some pretty outstanding women among our ranks.
Bob (post 265),
I disagree, I'm calling him a pu$$y because the kids in the video probably posted a better time than Mr. Mimms. Ha ha ha!
But in all seriousness this is money digging and his personal responsibility in the matter is what is truly should be called into question.
#4 Kevin T
I'm a PhD candidate in Microbiology. CrossFit keeps me sane :)
I was about to join the bandwagon, but it was brought to my attention by someone that maybe this guy has something that genetically or medically makes him predisposed to rhabdo.
What do you guys think?
Why do we insist on putting people down? Why do we think we are better then another person because of what they do? Why is it that some people think they are better then others?
I ask this after reading comments about people professions. I amuses me to see someone put down another persons profession and then find out what they do.
Is a doctor better then me because I only have a master in exercise science....no. I will tell you this, there is much that can be learned from each other. It seems that we have to spend more time shutting our mouths and opening our ears. We will grow as a society and as individuals.
Good luck to Coach. I know Crossfit is not on trial but it does hurt to see the name ran through the mud and then its members act like they are above everyone else just because they Crossfit. Instead of bashing people, go out and teach them, educate the masses and then we can have peace.
People hate what they don't know. If we educate them, the fear is lost.
yeah thats all cool- except... chiropractors aint really doctors.
Hmmmm....does anyone wanna talk about CF? Does anyone have something to say about what their fave 'major lift' is and why? Or for that matter, why not debate the difficulty of the various "Girls" WOD?
I understand the point-counterpoint on this topic because it's a bit polarizing due to our opinions, backgrounds, etc. The beauty of CF is that it unifies us --> let's talk about that for awhile.
#131 Think of all the women who have lost their lives in the armed forces, who are serving the country in the present time and our sacrificing as much as any man for their country before you use the term sister as derrogatory. Woman does not mean weak. Just look at the women of CF.
I work in a typically man's job and your gender means crap when it comes to hard work. Its all about you!!! I've seen many men quit or chicken out or even hide in order not to do work and I keep on trucking. A little respect is due.
This guy has his own agenda (money). And even though he may have gotten injured, and I wouldn't wish that on anyone and it can happen to anyone of us, from what info we have it just doesn't seem legitimate. A jury of his peers will, i am sure, discover the truth. :)
Have an awesome rest day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#271: what if they don't want to be educated? What if they want to cast stones without regard to whether they are warranted or not?
Learning about CrossFit is as simple as coming here, reading, then experimenting with the workouts. If you exercise both your body and common sense, you won't get hurt.
This is more than many or most CrossFit critics are willing to do. I think we handle constructive criticism quite well. It's destructive, ill informed criticism masquerading as understanding that gets most of our goats.
The fact that this lawsuit even exists makes me want to puke.
“the CF trainers I've had an experience of working with have been phenomenal, and I've never felt pressured to do something I can't (although I've been pressured to do something I could). I would suggest that for those new to the CF regimen, there be a mandatory two-week break in period, where - regardless of the level of fitness - there is allowed to be a brief acclimation to CF style exercises.
I think the biggest reason CF is at risk for litigation like this is that it is such a hard fitness regimen, and many trainers enjoy beating the crap out of their trainees (and they should!). The problem is where trainers take someone new to the program, and want to "shock and awe" them with its toughness.
Essentially, what you are suggesting (a “break-in period”) is already widely practiced (as you know from experience).
As a trainer, I have seen far more gym injuries from non-CF workouts than from any Crossfit WOD. The primary difference is that The Glassmans have been open and honest about potential problems, thus fostering a sane, healthy approach towards the uninitiated. The tradeoff is that morons take this honesty as evidence that CF is inherently dangerous. (This tendency to punish a successful open-source system does in fact reek of Leftism, but let us leave politics out of this for now.)
As for your opinion that trainers “should” enjoy beating the crap out of their clients, here I am forced to disagree. Good trainers enjoy seeing their trainees work towards their potential as humans and as athletes. The only ones we enjoy humiliating are those with crappy attitudes, such as “nakubika” (or whatever his silly name may be). Throwing high-volume/high-intensity work at any and all comers is symptomatic of lousy coaching and is the exception, not the rule, in this community IMHO.
Ok, this is sad. Page 23 of 25, says "Mr Lopez instructed and encouraged Mr. Mimms to perform a series of leg exercises continuously for about 20 minutes..."
No way. No way that is humanly possible. This dude took nearly 20 minutes to do this workout? I don't see how it's humanly possible that he could get rhabdo from doing the equivalent of 90 squats in 20 minutes. 20 MINUTES... I can see if he hadn't done any exercises for a full year or so, then popped this sucker off in 60 seconds, but not 20 minutes, no way.
Put it this way, if this dude legitimately got rhabdo from doing THAT workout in 20 MINUTES, he would have gotten rhabdo from walking up a 1/4 mile trail uphill, then walking back down.
I agree wholeheartedly with your post. And let me emphasis that my "beating the crap" out of the trainee was a euphemism for hard work, and did not mean to convey a literal connotation of "pain."
Coach's addressing of the rhabdo issue in the community is definitely worthy of praise, and I fully believe that CF as a whole has done everything in it's power to circumvent future rhabdo cases. My suggesting of the break-in period was simply a re-statement of my experiences with CF, and a literal representation of what I've been taught.
I am amazed at this case. This workout is one we would absolutely post for our CF Kids class and not think twice about.
There must be some predisposition or he induced Rhabdo through another means. Our intro sessions include some Sumo Deadlift High Pulls, Pull Ups, Rowing, and Wall Ball in doses similar to this with no ill effects other than people are surprised how tired they get.
Our 4th session we do:
15 Pull Ups (with an assistance band)
15 Wall Ball (4-10lb ball based on trainer judgment)
Our 5th session we do:
Sumo Deadlift High Pull (61lbs Men / 49lbs Women)
I'm afraid of what would have happened to this guy in our one-on-one intros.
3 x CFWU
4:28 as Rx
The National Hospital Discharge Survey reports 26,000 cases annually. Most adult cases of rhabdomyolysis are due to illicit drug abuse/alcohol abuse, muscular trauma and crush injuries, and myotoxic effects of prescribed drugs. Rhabdomyolysis is found in 24% of patients who present to emergency departments with cocaine-related conditions.
When I first mentioned Rhabdo to my sister (a MD) the first thing she talked about was the incidence of rhabdo in alcoholics. This survey would seem to back her up.
Any insight into Mr. Mimms medical history?
I hate for anybody to get injured in training, so it definitely sucks for Mr. Mimms.
I do not know all the facts of the case, but I can say that somebody with any type of athletic background should know their limits and should be responsible for their own safety in the gym, within reason. Obviously, if the equipment broke due to a defect that the coach was aware of, then the coach should be held partly responsible for the consequences. But if it's just you pushing yourself past your limits, you alone are to blame.
The sooner we stop silly lawsuits like this and start taking some personal responsibility, the better it will be for all of us.
Did this workout today, great smoke check!
Each Exercise is to be done for 10 reps with no rest between for a total of 4 revolutions. Seems easy till you try it:
Hanging Straight leg leglifts (10 reps)
Leg press with 130 lbs (10 reps)
Weighted rows with 130 lbs (10 reps0
Bench Press with 130 lbs (10 reps)
Shoulder press with 90 lbs (10 reps)
Barbell curls with 75lbs (10 reps)
tricep pushdowns with 60 lbs (10 reps)
horizontal leg lifts (on slanted bench 10 reps)
80 lb thrusters (10 reps)
1 minute on the bike at level 10
For a total of 4 times through
Pretty much smoked everyone including crossfitters. Try it out!
This is a good heads up to those of us who instruct others in the CF discipline. Make sure you scale your training to meet your customers performance levels.
Also, having your customers sign a waiver, if they don't already, is also very good idea. CrossFit is a great way to get in shape, but it should also be given a brake from time to time. The body was not designed to work at the intensity level prescribed by the CF main page, indefinitely. (3-on 1-off 3-on). This is especially important to pay attention to as the age of your customers increase. The body needs sufficient time to recover, and one day is not enough. Some of our top performers do quite well, but i also suspect the use of chemical enhancements are being used as well.
Many of the people who post here have experienced injuries that are possibly the result of over use of that particular muscle. The body just wore out! So enjoy the CF work outs, and also enjoy taking a rest from it as well. I'm currently enjoying CF type workouts only once a week, along with a basic strength training regimen (Stronglifts). After a few months I will go back to CF as RX'd.
I have been doing CF for about 2 years now. In May of this year I attended a CF Level I certification. Although I was very aware of the potential risks associated with participating in an elite fitness program through self-study (reading the CF Journal, posts, etc) my participation in the certification reinforced in me the requirement to make mature decisions regarding my pursuit of elite fitness. What is more important for me now is as I use the knowledge I gained by attending the Level I certification and am teaching the CF Method to my peers I must encourage them to make the same mature decisions or as in the case of complete newbies I will make those decisions for them if they are participating in a WOD with me. So, it is my belief that as a CF proponent that I have a responsibility to CF to ensure that I protect the program even as I spread the good word so to speak.
My second concern having read this article and discussed this with numerous peers is the negative reaction that seems to be generating amongst people responsible for the conditioning of their charges. I am a Marine and am attending one of the War Colleges. I know the importance of combat conditioning as well as having facilities available to conduct combat conditioning. In my service we are finally coming round to the fact that neither our conditioning program nor our facilities support the systematic combat conditioning necessary to prepare our Marines and Sailors for the rigors of combat. The Deputy Commandant for Combat Development and Integration has published a concept for functional fitness. What that means is that the Marine Corps paradigm for fitness is changing and it has been recognized by our senior leadership that we must implement functional fitness to be prepared to accomplish our missions. That combined with a bottom up recognition that our fitness program isn't sufficient and the gradual introduction of Crossfit as a functional fitness model by individuals within our service has begun to turn the tide in this very important aspect of preparing for combat. Additionally, we are starting to see functional fitness or combat conditioning facilities pop-up at bases around the Corps because the base gyms do not have the equipment, room, or philosophical support to conduct elite fitness training. Is the Marine Corps going to formally adopt Crossfit as THE functional fitness model? I don't know. I do know however that Crossfit is growing in popularity particularly with our NCO corps and with our junior officers. They more than anyone know the importance of having mentally and physically tough Marines and Sailors. I will submit that Crossfit is here to stay within the Corps.
That stated, I believe it is incumbent upon those of us who have been fortunate enough to recieve the top notch education that comes with a Level I certification to be guardians of this tremendous program. When applied properly the results are tremendous. When abused the consequences can be damaging to individuals as well as the program. Immediately upon completion of my certification I began implementing the CF method into my unit. I used my battalion staff as the first pool of individuals I would teach the CF method to. I knew them all well and knew their physical capabilities. I also knew that being Marines that they would tend to be hyper competitive and be reluctant to scaling in order to demonstrate their toughness. I could have done something similar to the WOD conducted during the CF level I cert, but in doing so I would knowingly violate my responsibility to look out for their welfare, I would likely turn them off to functional fitness by "destroying them" in a WOD like Fran, and I would not be adhering to what I learned at the certification. Therefore I took it slow and gradually over the course of several weeks introduced most of the CF Method to them. Following a period of instruction and then application we would then execute a WOD that was scaled to their abilities. Some were able to do more than others but all made improvements.
Now at the War College I am continuing to provide the CF Method to those who are interested. Some of my peers are familiar with CF and have been conducting WODs and are looking for a group to work with. I still remind them when conducting a WOD with me that they need to exercise some maturity as they develop their own elite fitness. Others are new, and I gladly work with them on the CF method, but I will not be the one to cause them to have a catastrophic failure. I tell all that CF will expose weakness and you will fail, but that is entirely different than a failure when the exertion places someone in the hospital.
So to wind up this long winded post: Regardless of what we may think of the individual filing suit we are the CF community, we know the program works, and for many of us it has had life altering results. As the community we have a responsibility to ensure that the CF Method is protected through education and mature decision making. s/f, WP 6 (old)
Let me get this straight...this guy gets hurt so he blames the gym and CrossFit exercises.
WTF over?! "Guns don't kill people, people kill people."
WP 6 -
Well said. Very well said.
Now odds are that something strange is afoot here but it doesn't seem impossible that the kids workout could have injured someone if they were going fast enough.
If he was really getting some air on the Burpees and going too fast and deep on the thrusters/squats, it seems he could have been injured due to lack of flexibility.
#4 - Navy Commander, Surface Warfare Officer (ship driver). BS Computer Science. MA National Security and Strategic Studies.
OK I just read the entire legal brief, did the workout myself and put a beginner CF'r (fifth session) through it, and I have to say I have not seen anything, not even the South Africa Copyright thief, that has made me as hot under the collar as this.
I also watched the "Hukuna Matata" CF Kids "Makimba" video, and I hope, PRAY, that the defense attorneys play it in open court (and the plaintiff is laughed out of court) and that the defendants counter-sue for this unbelievably, blatantly, ridiculously, frivolous lawsuit.
I was especially annoyed by the attempt to twist the NSCA and ACSM standards on resistance training to make it seem as if this was some kind of outrageous abuse on the part of the coaches. First of all, for a full grown man this does not constitute resistance training, 10# is not in any way shape or form a significant load for such an individual. Not only that, but as has been pointed out, this took him 20 minutes to complete, or 4.5 reps per minute. Assuming that he went at a glacial pace, it is hard to believe that a rep could have taken more than 5 seconds each, and even if he was moving in slow motion, and it took him 10 seconds each, that would leave 15 seconds of rest between "sets" (it is hard to even say what constitutes a "set" at this pace), and this is within the aforementioned guidelines which state under one minute for moderate (10-15 rep) sets: The fact is they are talking about weight lifting, not calisthenics. We are talking 5 rep back squat to near failure to need 3 minutes of recovery. Whoever wrote this is either not too bright or highly manipulative.
Anyway, I did this at a moderate pace, 4:20 (hats off to the kid who got P:59!) and my brand new trainee did it in around 11 minutes, with great form at her own pace.
Call me a cynic, but there is just NO WAY doing this in 20 minutes could have caused his injuries, I really hope the Nanny-State loses on this one.
Couldn't have said it any better Sir. We have a duty and responsibility to ensure the safety of those we train, and in turn, ensure the credibility of our community and the CrossFit program.
I've seen many soldiers and their leadership turned off of CrossFit because of injuries sustained at the hands of inexperienced, untrained, or irresponsible trainers/coaches.
As trainers/coaches, its our responsibility to know the limitations of our trainees and mentor and train them within those limits. Subsequently growing their capabilities and allowing them to exceed their initial limitations.
We can't and shouldn't rely on a client, trainee, or workout buddy to understand their limitations within the CrossFit model. That's one of the primary things we get paid to do (and are entrusted to do) as CrossFit affiliates, leaders, or coaches.
I missed the last 2 CFT’s so did this today
BS 190, tied PR
SP 80 (this has not moved up…ever! form work?)
DL 225, PR
= 495, PR and so close to breaking the 500!
Trail running tonight :)
I cannot wait for the lawyer to dig through some of these comments and present them to the jury as evidence of the viscious and callous nature of those who follow crossfit.
Hey, here is a prediction - your affliate fees will be raised in the near future to cover a mulit-million dollar settlement.
Cheap shot Makimbo!
A large proportion of the US Navy has adpoted the CF methodology and this is fantastic news for all who serve in their ranks.
It's a shame that he would do such a thing to tarnish the name of CF, line his pockets and cause severe stress to the coaches of Ruthless. Hats off to Navy Chief for his post, it'd be sweet if all allies officers had this view...
Our warm-up is your workout or paralysis causing workout haha
CHECK MAKIMBO MIMMS' VA DISABILITY CLAIM! He has only 1 year from separation to file it.
And, put in a request discovery of his DD 214. I anticipate it's not "honorable", and he didn't separate by his own choice. There's more to Makimbo's story than the "Picker Times" article wants to report.
A star defense witness, Priscilla Clarkson, PhD, http://www.umass.edu/cnshp/clarkson.html has produced a defense letter opining that Mimms did 20 minutes of leg exercises that produced rhabdo. Okay, that's 20 min x 60 sec per min divided by 90 exercises = 13.33 seconds per exercise. Since each exercise takes about a second each, it's a 13 to 1 rest to effort ratio. Just a smidge over 4 exercises per minute. That's the sleepiest pace possible for Makimbo, and certainly not reckless or irresponsible coaching by Ruthless Training, regardless of what a fat worthless Navy lard butt Mimms is.
Have the defense lawyers make the proper discovery request to see what he's claimed for in VA disability. I anticipate a wealth of information will be found in there.
I'm doing "Makimba" for my warmup tonight. I hope to break P:50.
Coach, thanks for everything, including today's humor in an otherwise revolting lawsuit.
Sorry I'm not lyrically bashing this joker today. He's simply not worth my effort. Have Grampa take the shotgun, put ol' Makimbo down, and bury him in back of the garage with the rest of the vermints.
Just a loser looking for some easy money, its a shame that people can stoop so low.
Dr. D #264,
I think you are taking a humorous comment and confusing it with an attack due to lack of context.
The "doctor? you're a chiropractor. I mean, I'm sure your school was rigourous in its own way. Nonetheless..." is a quote from Seinfeld by the "Elaine" character to her very soon to be
Note the character and poster have the same name. I'm sure it was just a knee-jerk pop quote to the mention of being a chiroprator.
I think the people who are posting about the need for due diligence from trainers (which is, of course, a great and necessary thing)are missing the point. Please take a look at this video to see the kind of pace that is being claimed for this injury: here I demonstrate 5 full ROM air squats at 10 seconds each. This would allow 10 seconds of rest for each set of 5 movements performed at this pace for 20 minutes, which is what is being claimed injured the defendant (as they intimate he was not allowed to rest enough, so he must have been moving fairly continuously, right?).
Crossfit should develope a series of wods that are prescribed for first time users. They would be pre-scaled and the scaling would be the opposite of the current ones (for the first two weeks): if you can do more/heavier, do so. That would be the introductory scaling. I would think the risk of kidney issues would go down and the ability to do more by the client would go up. I would never think to tell "Coach" his business, but it does seem like a simple fix, pre-set the first two or three weeks, then jump into the WOD's when your trainer and/or you think it's time.
too busy to fit anything in yesterday so I used it as my rest day
85degrees in Pittsburgh today.
This Mimm guy is a weakling. He should be ashamed.
comment 304, it still would not matter, advanced athletes can develop rhabdo. not having the full story its hard to take sides, crossfit can be dangerous if its not understood, but so can asprin.
this guy must of been wayy out of shape, and not currently a wrestler and on his way out for the navy. i do not believe that workout with the average individual(non-crossfitter) would have been punishing enough to the body to cause such severe conditions. there have to be other factors not mentioned that come into play...
does anybody know anything about the trainer? was he certified through crossfit? and with a national certification as well?
Here ya go. My girlfriend and I has been doing CrossFit for about 2 1/2 months.
ME: 5:22 / not rx'd (I used 20# dumbbells instead of 10# dumbbells)
MY AMAZING GIRLFRIEND: 6:17 / as rx'd (she hates burpees)
I also did yesterday's WOD today:
Mad, because I probably could have done more. But happy I still got a PR today.
Loving CrossFit! This Kool-Aid is GOOD! Very GOOD!
Hahahahahaha. Oh man, this is hilarious. I'm at a loss for words...ROTFLMAO!!
Coach, so all this progess I've made is a sham?
I think I'll sue and get my money back. Oh,crap.
It was free. Pass the kool-aid.
I'm an Air Force officer (combat engineer)...and I've never slept in late. We have plenty of push up freaks...as well as some outstanding distance runners.
FYI, and not widely known, roughly 70% of the USAF fights on the ground...and I mean fight: engineers, security forces, transporters, special operators, rescue, outside the wire ISO Army and AF missions.
The sailor in question clearly doesn't live by his Service's standards...the SeaBee's I know would eat that guy for breakfast.
#304 A Wootton
There already is a suggested CF intro/beginners program for total newbies (i.e. people with low starting fitness, no real access to coaching or a gym, and little equipment). It's a 12 week fixed regimen found at:
As always the Journal is a goldmine of info and sound advice. Highly recommended reading!
I'm Navy LCDR and I love Cross Fit, it's a better workout than anything I have come across in the past.
As a Navy Diver I did lots of swimming and calisthenics.
As a competitive cross country runner, I was running 70ish miles per week.
As a lifeguard I was surfing all the time and drinking a lot of beer….
Cross Fit is a great way for anyone to stay in shape, you just have to make sure you don't over exert yourself. When I first started I wouldn't even try a 225# deadlift until I got my form down. Now my PR is 365#. I'm stronger and fitter than I ever was before, and probably only slightly slower over long distance.
Today I did max rounds in 20 min of run 400m, Max pull-ups. Did 7 rounds, pu's were 20, 12, 12, 11, 12, 14, 13
Paul did 7 rounds plus 200m, pu's were 18, 10, 9, 7, 9, 5, 5
Comment #297 in8girl
I have seen comments about the press in CF totals like yours a few times. Don't forget to think of gains in each lift in terms of percentages, not absolutes. If you deadlift 225 and add 5 pounds to that for a new PR then that is an increase of 2.2%. For a similar 2.2% on your shoulder press weight that would equal less than two pounds, which of course is less than the smallest standard plate that most gyms have. So don't expect huge visible jumps like in the squat and deadlift. You might consider trying to get some smaller weights to put on the bar so you keep adding more. Some options are: adding extra clips/collars on the bar, magnets, big metal washers, attaching chains, ropes or anything measurable to the bars with tape or tying or anything your imagination can come up with. That way you can increase the weight in smaller increments and continue to see progress. Of course work on push press and push jerks will help your shoulder press go up as well and if your technique is not perfect then it isn't going to hurt to work on that as well.
Why is our insurance premiums so high in this country? Thanks to dumb assess like this!
Wow! If everyone can take nothing else from this conversation, it's that while guys like Speal and Dutch make us all feel weak and insignificant... compared to Makimba, I kick a$$!! My 3-year old daughter loves to do burpees in the garage while I do the WOD. Apparently, compared to Makimba, she kicks a$$ too!!!
Also, has anyone else noticed the stark contrast from yesterday's topic to today's? Yesterday, you've got Kyle Maynard, who by anyone's account, is a complete stud that literally wrote the book on "No Excuses". Today, you've got a guy that is nothing but excuses. There has been a comparison made between Makimba and the McDonald's coffee drinker. But it's really an apples to oranges comparison. To make it a true comparison, the woman that got burned would have had to heat up her own coffee at McDonalds' urging, burn herself, and THEN sue!!
For that matter, where does it end? If a client can't swim, and the trainer tells the client to do laps across the deep end of the pool, shouldn't the client mention that they can't swim? Or should they just jump in and drown because they were told to?
Very clearly, we have a case of a guy that won't take responsibility for his own actions. But that's one of the main problems with our culture imho.
Unfortunately, many people do not have common sense... I didn't read the whole 25 page lawsuit, but the initial claims this guy is making sounds ridiculous.
If he was a true beginner, he shouldn't have done this workout, or at least he shouldn't've exercised in a way that would cause him to claim "permanent disability"
The other sad fact here is that Navy Captain who was being a bitch about crossfit (thinking that it could lead to injury / and somehow naming WODs after girls is against the Navy's Core Values) is going to look like he was right by claiming this sailor to be proof of what he believed.
Basically, I personally think the problem that Corssfit presents is that it requires people to use their instincts and common sense...and many people can't do that. Reasons like this are why some people have problems with cross fit. Sadly, if it were up to these people, the military would be stuck doing only push up and sit up pyramids at low numbers as to avoid injury and to be politically correct as well. I already see it being done.
first of all, i love crossfit and enjoy all it has done for my level of fitness.
secondly, i have no idea what you all are whining about. hes not suing crossfit. hes suing the gym he was at and the trainer, where he just so happened to be doing a crossfit workout. just because he filed a lawsuit, absolutely does not mean that he will win. this seems highly unlikely, as anyone who could not have done that workout has no place in a gym called "ruthless". there are also many questions about his health that will be looked at im sure.
however, you all seem quick to call him "fat", and "embarassingly unfit". then why was the trainer making him do thrusters? when i go the gym i love having a good laugh at the fatties trying to balance on a little half rubber ball. certainly i would not think it wise for them to do a crossfit workout. and just because he is less fit than i am doesnt make him a criminal. if they find information that suggests that he was unfit, without disclosing the information, then he will obviously be negligent. BUT. if not, then i side with Mimm that the trainer was negligent. why you ask? because if i (an above average athlete) walk in to a gym, PAY MONEY, and ask for a trainer to help me get in shape, and get injured, it..... is....... his...... fault. its HIS JOB to know his clients limitations. people dont pay for trainers to give them a step-by-step workout they can find online. they pay for experts to tell them what to do.
if i go to the dentist and he cuts my lip open, i dont suck it up and say "get some" as some of you have so eloquently put. i yell at him, get my money back, and SUE FOR THE DAMAGE.
everyone here, without any information whatsoever, has insulted this person and complimented their workout program.
#298 you are absolutely correct. you are all hurting the chances of justice being served one way or another.
OK so let's start at the basics.
I'm always bummed when an athlete gets hurt even if they brought it on themselves so it's a bummer he got hurt.
As a athlete who is also a doc I know that Rhabdo is possible (NOT probable mind you, just possible) with any rapid change in training and I also know there are MANY other causes for rhabdo.
Here in this community we all jump to the work out as the cause but check out the list below of conditions, meds, situations that can make it more likely. Given his prior (assumed) state of fitness and the minimal nature of the work out there has to be more to the story biologically.
I don't know this guy but from the scan of the documents I did it looks like the hurt was real so he's just lashing out at any target to help him make sense of a bad thing. Too bad he met up with a lawyer before his physical therapist / coach / medical team headed him back to a positive recovery path. I hope his doc's did their due diligence in looking for other causes. Shame on them if they just jumped to conclusions, but that'll come out in the wash.
In summary: Don't flame him, pity him.
"ALWAYS learn form other peoples bad stuff !"
Rhabdomyolysis is a consequence of different disease entities that cause myonecrosis. These processes may be classified as traumatic or medically-induced. Trauma, including overexertional states, results in direct muscle injury. There are various medical causes. Rare, inherited muscle enzyme defect disorders, as well as seizures, infections, metabolic abnormalities, hypoxic conditions, temperature-related entities and certain immunologic diseases, may result in rhabdomyolysis.
Numerous prescribed and abused drugs may lead to rhabdomyolysis: Cocaine, amphetamines and phencyclidine may cause hyperdynamic muscular states.
Narcotics and other central nervous system depressants (barbiturates, sedative-hypnotics) may cause tissue hypoperfusion and prolonged immobilization and limb compression.
Salicylate toxicity uncouples oxidative phosphorylation, which inhibits ATP formation.
Diuretics may lead to potassium depletion severe enough to result in rhabdomyolysis.
Statin therapy for cholesterol control has a significant unwanted effect of rhabdomyolysis.   The mechanism is currently not clearly defined.
Toxins, such as cyanide, mercury, copper, carbon monoxide and toluene disrupt ATP use or production at the cellular level and subsequently cause muscle damage.  
Envenomation is a form of toxin-induced rhabdomyolysis. It has been documented in bee stings, centipede bites and snakebites.  
In essence, any condition that causes intrinsic or extrinsic damage to myocytes results in release of intracellular contents into the vascular compartment and the ensuing complications. A small proportion of cases are classified as idiopathic. These however, are thought to be from as yet unrecognized hereditary defects or earlier undiagnosed metabolic causes.
#318 I have to disagree with your dentist analogy. A trainer just instructs. A dentist actually works on the client with physical contact. Unless the trainer was physically forcing Mimms to do the workout, I just don't see how it is the trainer's fault. At least not enough so to justify litigation. If a trainer told me to attempt to deadlift 500 pounds and assured me that I'd be ok, I'd look at him like he was nuts. I wouldn't even try. And I feel that it's my responsibility to make that decision as an adult. I don't think people can have it both ways. You can't have true freedom to make choices and also put the responsibility for the consequences on other people. And by the way, whether it was crossfit or 8 minute abs, it's still his responsibility to make his own decisions. What if on the 8 minute abs tape, the "trainer" says "come on, you can do it!" and you hurt yourself? Would suing the "trainer" be justified? I hope most people would say no. But sadly, there are those that would say yes...
Just a query for any of you out there using Crossfit Endurance in conjunction with CF wod. I have read alot about POSE running on the CFE site, is this a cert you need to get anything out of the CFE wod? Does it matter if i dont have the cert? I dont really have the opportunity to do it as im in Australia.
I have an issue with #318 as well. I think anyone that chooses to participate in a program, with or without a trainer, is accepting the risk. The trainer's liability should not include full knowledge of predisposition to a certain ailment. As an adult, Mr. Mimms has the right and ability to stop himself. As a paying client of that trainer, he had the right to discontinue at any time he chose to. If he does not know that he is damaging himself physically, the trainer would not be able to know as well. Would the athlete, Mr. Mimms, not be responsible for informing the trainer of his predisposition to rhabdo? It is a sad state of affairs when an athlete can sue for his own lack of control and lack of self awareness. There was no indication that I saw in the legal documentation that Mr. Mimms was forced. Coercion is a weak excuse.
I hurt myself doing CrossFit! Send lawyers, guns and money!
Re: Comment #4: I am a retired USAF TACP. Currently a UAV trainer/operator.
#4 I'm a software engineer.
mjpenna, I disagree. This was precisely the workout he should have done if he was a true beginner. Or, a child...
Why have I only seen a couple posts advocating a "Loser Pays" system for these things? Are they called Torts? I'm not a lawyer, obviously.
But the question remains: Why is this not being discussed?
And, anyone who wants to read a scathing indictment of our current legal system must, and I mean, MUST, get a copy of "The Case Against Lawyers" by Catherine Crier. You will be FUMING by the time you are finished with it. Then, you will wanna move to...I don't know...somewhere else. Holy crap, I can't think of anywhere better. Gulp.
How much is he expecting? $850,000?
#320: i would guarantee you that there is a very long disclaimer on the 8 minute abs video. that is one thing that will be argued in this trial im sure, if the gym he was in had proper paper work.
if someone without knowledge of the lift they are doing was told it was ok by a trainer, the trainer would be responsible. i think a lot of people in here just dont get it. it doesnt matter that YOU can do the lifts. it doesnt matter that YOU would completely ignore the expert in the room. it doesnt matter that YOU think this guy is a wuss. what matters is that a man walked in to a gym and got injured under professional supervision. this injury following a workout, that in its original format, less than 1% of the population can do properly. THAT is what matters. do i think he will win. no. do i think that a bunch of people in these forums have given a display of mockery that was unwarranted. yep.
"Do you know what else causes muscle damage? Getting shot because you can't run with 50 lbs on your back."
Awesome. Won't be able to do the WOD tomorrow, so decided to do GI Jane today.
10:13 (PR by 1:38)
I finally beat Greg in something!
Yeah, I don't think the difficulty of the workout has anything to do with it. Obviously, if what the court papers say is true, then the workout was dangerously difficult for him.
His qualities as an athelete aren't what's at stake here.
405 previous PR
415 Ugly, but a PR
415 a little better
405 good form
A good day.
Another great example of "Natural Selection". Just think, most of you that responded today are probably in the group that will survive....
#318 your dentist analogy is not relevant. If you went to a dentist and he told you to cut your own lip open and you did it then that just makes you a dumbass, it does not leave him liable. As an adult in our country if you disagree with something you do not have to do it, that is the greatness of freedom. If it sounds absurd or ridiculous then don't do it! When we relieve a person of all of the consequenses of their actions and reward them money because they blame someone else we make our society a worse place. If you think this guy deserves the money for destroying himself then you are and idiot also, and I wouldn't be surprised if you are related to this jackass.
I think many of you believe that Mr. Mimms' legal claim is an exemption from personal responsibilty. In other words, "I was hurt because of the Trainer and CrossFit."
I am sad that many other Americans are like Mr. Mimms: "It's your fault that I hurt myself." Granted there are execeptions in the case of gross negligence. But more and more people are becoming like Mr. Mimms and expect others to watch out for them and take care of them.
Can we change this? I think so. As you head to the polls this November, perhaps you should think about voting for the candidate(s) that want to create more opportunities for (and empower) Americans to HELP THEMSELVES. Likewise, you might want to NOT vote for the party that wants to create more services and agencies to take care of Americans.
Furthermore, if you truly think Mr. Mimms lawsuit is frivolous and harmful to the small business owner then you should know that both Democrates and Republicans have made their positions very clear with respect to Tort Reform. Read up and vote.
I hope on his way home he didn't spill hot coffee from McDonalds on his legs---then he might have a real law suit.
thanks for posting this suit.
CF is awesome. You guys rock.
this law suit is a joke and so is Mr Mimms, get real, do a real workout then complain buddy
dT, I can respect where you're coming from. But I strongly feel that your reasoning is a slippery slope. People need to stop asking the government to take care of them and take responsibility for their own actions. Mimms might be a really tough guy that had a medical condition and he's looking to cash in. Or he might really be a total sissy. Either way, I feel that he should be responsible for the actions he commits. I agree that people are often all too willing to obey those that they see as authority figures. Take a look at the Milgram Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment).
And yes, I'm sure the 8 minute abs video has lots of disclaimers. And likewise, I'm sure (I hope) Ruthless had Mimms sign a waiver with lots of disclaimers. That's what makes the analogy so relevant.
#4 I'm an attorney in Florida and I defend insurance companies. Yes I know they're also part of the problem, but....
This suit is BS.
The #1 reason we have this CRAP in our legal system is something known as "The American Rule"
The American Rule is an element of the American legal code where, in most cases, each party shoulders their own legal costs and does not pay those of the prevailing party.
This "Rule" encourages frivolous claims that result in settlements based on a defendant's Cost/Benefit analysis of a claim.
In England, the losing party to a suit is obligated to pay costs and fees to the prevailing party. Again, this is in MOST cases.
There is an insane amount of judicial inefficiency, waste of taxpayer money, and imparting of "I'm a Victim" mind-set caused by the American Rule.
I wonder what Mr. Mimms thinks?
So awesome to see the kids pumping out the WOD that maimed a man trained to kill by the US government. Totally his fault...what did you expect...like going to swimming lessons and getting all bend outta shape 'cuz there is water in the pool ("nobody told me I'd have trouble breathing in there").
Everyone wants to throw a rest-break in there...
Did enjoy the comment that getting shot is a great way to induce musculoskeletal injury.
Mr Mimms...get some, go again! 3, 2, 1, GO!
Ok, now I'm caught up... Did the yesterday's DL WOD today, results there.
We've got our initial PT test tomorrow at the Academy, hoping to tear it up!
I must say that I have been entertained by some of todays comments. As a surgeon, I am not surprised that a trainer is being blamed and sued, and I'm sure the legal precedent for fitness related injuries has been established. I am also not surprised that many of you as attorneys are quick to defend Mr. Mimm's right to justice. Unfortunately those of us involved in the tort crisis in America from a healthcare standpoint deal with this threat with every patient we encounter. The message here, as I said last week on a post, is to you professional trainers. With legal counsel, develop an objective fitness assessment for your new clients, a waiver for them to read and sign with a witness, and make sure your liability insurance is adequate. We live in the most litiginous society in the history of the world, and until real tort reform occurs, thats just the way it will be. I will say it would be difficult to imagine that CrossFit, Inc. would have any direct liability in this case, with all of the warnings and education about this for our trainers.
it's too hard to comment on this from neutral perspective.
I love CrossFit and the man inside of me strongly believes the Mr. Mimms is not one.
I'd rather chance rhabdo in a CF workout than crap out in a fire because I was too scared to do anything in the gym but curls and book reading on an elliptical.
Did the deadlifts.
Best set was 341.5 lbs.. New PR. Thanks Coach!!
made up WOD as follows:
w/u 15 min jumprope (practicing du - every 3) about 50
8x 20 sec on/10 sec rest
pull ups (gravitron 85# assist)
sit ups (non anchored straight leg)
could only keep track of intervals and 20/10sec.
How do you keep track of reps too when your alone. lol Just gave it my all.
warm down jumprope 30 min
regular and du (every three) about 100
I think im caught up. Tired, but I don't plan on suing anyone. :)
This is the type of thing that makes me question ever attempting to open a box...
What a shame.
Anyone for a rhabdo-off? I say that workout gets posted on the boards, all the thousands of us perform it, smoke his time and count the rhabdo cases that ensue WITHOUT professional assistance (I'm guessing none). Would that be admissible as evidence of the lunacy of this trial?
I'm concerned that people put too much liability on trainers. That spooks me. I can see this ending badly. Any hot-shot counsel-folk on the boards looking to do some pro-bono for the wonderful resource we have here? If this ends as we all hope it will not, crossfit could be in trouble. How can we help?
I saw some of the Navy comments. Don't let the weak links shape your view of the entire service. I have seen some round Marines and sloppy Army dudes too. I'll leave the Air Force alone... its like kicking a three legged cat.
Personal responsibility plays a role in this situation. If he was hurting, he should stop. If he knew he was out of shape, he should have taken it easy. Unfortunately, I think the trainer is going to eat this one. The blame will not rest solely on the frail participant, but on all involved. The burden of the weak is left to the strong, and generally not appreciated.
5 Rounds for time:
400m run (in the pouring rain)
27:00 on the dot.
Only thing broken was my pushups but man did the pace slow on the run and situps as the rounds went by!
It was hard and I worked out as hard as I could and guess what? NO RHABDO and NO INJURIES!
full time: electrician
part time: cpr instructor
testing to become a firefighter
As a last thought...
As some folks in this blog have stated that this is an unfair attack on our Navy wrestler friend, I offer this:
1) with all of the Crossfit cadre that visit this page every day, this is probably the BEST education for them to make sure they are running their establishments with the appropriate amount of caution. The military has various centers that publish lessons-learned from all aspects of the military. It only serves to prevent the same kind of oversight from happening more often.
2) Hopefully Big Bubba Makimba, as well as those who may fall victim to exercise-induced trauma, will take a peek at this blog and learn how to take more responsibility for their own misfortunes. Sometimes we know better before we get into trouble; but then pride steps in, and we end up in the hurt locker...
Even mild hazing like this can (and usually does) serve a greater purpose.
Ok, read it all. My take:
1. CF is simply a training system with all sorts of safety warnings and features already built in. Someone cruising onto the site for the first time can very quickly access the instructioal videos and the "Start Here" section. The latter includes the following:
"In any case it must be understood that the CrossFit workouts are extremely demanding and will tax the capacities of even the world's best athletes. You would be well advised to take on the WOD carefully, cautiously, and work first towards completing the workouts comfortably and consistently before "throwing" yourself at them 100%. The best results have come for those who've "gone through the motions" of the WOD by reducing recommended loads, reps, and sets while not endeavoring towards impressive times for a month before turning up the heat. We counsel you to establish consistency with the WOD before maximizing intensity."
A properly run affiliate will use this approach.
2. Some of the vitriol for the plaintiff is maybe "a bit previous". Unless you're privy to all the facts, spare me the cheap put-downs. Maybe the trainer is the best on the planet, maybe he made some serious and negligent errors in light of all known facts. Unless we know more than the surface facts, rushing to judgment and being personal about any party doesn't look too smart to me.
3. Calling the plaintiff an "all navy wrestler" may be misleading. I know a few "College rowers" and "Representative rugby players" who are years past their glory days. Right now, they couldn't beat an egg. So what shape was he in - actual and apparent?
4. As other have noted, the expert reviewed an image of "Uncle Rhabdo" as part of her brief. I did a quick search of the CF site and found that back in July 2005, a cartoon image was posted of this character. There was an odd mix of light-hearted mirth but serious message. Someone asked when there would be an Uncle Rhabdo t-shirt and Coach posted a response saying:
"...Very soon. Contact firstname.lastname@example.org; you just won the first Rhabdo shirt!
Next five requests also win Rhabdo shirts. Post here and then contact Lauren."
So it's odd that CF is clearly taking Rhado very seriously, publishing well-written articles and talking sensibly about it, but then making light of it at the same time. FWIW, I think the light-hearted treatment of peuking is ok, but the Rhabdo doesn't sit as well with me.
5. Any business / system will have perceived failures which multiply as its success and scale grows. We don't need to be terrified because there's one law suit against one trainer and CF is mentioned. It's not the end of the world. Nor is this a suit against CF. Relax.
I was wondering the same thing a few weeks ago. Thanks for the post.
-Baggage Handler at Cincinnati Airport
-Student (Senior, Political Science)
-Reserve Soldier (7 years in, SSG, 42A... soon to be 21B)
I separated from the AF last fall, and I clearly remember that any "disability" that occurs while on active duty qualifies for disability coverage. It's common knowledge that sleep apnea alone constitutes 50% disability. And of course there are DoD rules and VA rules. Either way, this guy could also be getting a check from Uncle Sam for his troubles. And if he is just out to get $ then I'm certain he applied for VA benes. I don't know the whole story, but it sounds like Makimba's new career is full-time pile of poo.
I'm a trainer and non-profit director now.
I find it hard to put up with these kind of cheap shots by those that think they can win the courtroom lottery. Why this had to come from ANY member of the military is a professional embarassment to the rest of us in uniform.
LTC Bill Cattley
Performed this WOD as my warmup - 5:17. Had to shake out my legs on the burpees a couple times -- cramping up.
I wasn't clear if the load was 10# total or 10 # per dumbbell. So I put my legal education to work. In Virginia, on a defendant's motion to strike the plaintiff's evidence (what most states call a motion for a directed verdict) the court has to take the facts in the light most favorable to the plaintiff, so I used 10# per DB.
Main WOD was from Coach Rut:
7 rds for time:
5 DB clean box jumps (25#)
#355 LTC Bill Cattley
Sir, not to worry, as a civilian, I find these attempts at secondary gain offensive as well, but in no way does this reflect on you or the rest of our heros in the Armed Forces. You are what makes and and has made CrossFit so elite! We all know what this is about and being a representative of the Military "ain't it"!
Mocking a plaintiff who (believe it or not) has a valid cause of action makes absolutely no sense. It supports the contention that CrossFit is an extremist cult, which is hardly helpful to the defendant.
...Crossfit has adverse info on the plaintiff -- such as a history of drug use or other misconduct that may have led to the Rhabdo.
In that case, publication makes perfect sense. It's a message: we have only begun to fight back. And no way we're going to pay up to make this lawsuit go away. See you in court, where all will be revealed.
THis is the sort of insanity that the no B.S. CrossFit approach seeks to avoid - the getting something for nothing attitude that's killing the U.S. I was just too stupid for not knowing that I could sue twenty years ago for doing 'leg exercises for twenty minutes', silly me, I thought it was good for me and asked for more.
I've used 'cross training' for 35 years. When deployed, we'd build our own pu and dip bars, concrete in coffee cans w/rebar worked for bells, and whatever else we could adapt and mix it up. We weren't smart enough to call it CrossFit and spread the word, and the benefit, but I'm glad Glassman has.
I introduced CrossFit to my two daughters last year, (21 and 24). THe oldest got level one certified this year, along with her other certs it rounds out her ability to help others get tough. They both enjoy the workouts and you won't have to worry about them suing; they we raised to stand on their own and to earn their way through work and fortitude. I'm also going to make sure that they don't even consider joining the navy.
Hope the gym in VA can shake this ridiculous action. None of this speaks well for the Navy...
He's in the Navy. . .isn't that adverse?
Just kidding sailors!
My best friend is a sailor.
Semper Fi Crossfitters!
This wrestler can't be serious. Putting a shame to the wrestling community, what a terd. ALL-AMERICAN??, give me a break. Some people's kids.
It is ironic that Kyle Maynard was featured on yesterday's WOD.
Kyle being the poster child for a very strong willed human being that inspires the human race. Mimms, on the other hand proudly representing every weak, hopeless and pathetic individual across the land.
The man upstairs is pretty nice not to put Mimms weak mind in Kyle's body. Mimms would probably give up from the start, and then turn around and file a lawsuit against his parents.
then the mean man made made made me do bur bur burpessss...it it it hurt so so so bad...
I suspect that the reason about 98% of lawsuits are filed in the US is that we have the freedom and opportunity to file them. Yes, too many are ridiculous, but it's a small price to pay for access to the court system.
Regarding this suit, my instinct is that it's another ridiculous one, but I don't know all the facts. It'd be great if we could just write this one off and say we're all responsible for our own actions, but what ought to be is not always what is. I'm looking forward to seeing what the law has to say about this case.
In the meantime, I'll be trying out "Makimba" myself sometime soon. Cheers.
I made up yesterdays deadlift workout today:
295, 315, 335, 355, 365 (Failure), 345, 335
#4 IT Systems Engineer / Triage
#352 =J1: Making fun of (uncle) Rhabdo being a result of our workout is light-hearted bravado. It's like laughing at death or the devil (diablo) or sweat deamons. We do it because we feel we can defeat or overcome anything. they are nothing. We are crossfit. We'll take the risk to reap the reward and we'll do it with our eyes open. Rhabdo or death or puking or paralysis are scary and exciting and get the adrenaline pumping.
I'll pass on judging Mimms in my brain but my gut tells me other health factors were involved and doing ANY workout would have resulted in the same bout of Rhabdo.
I do find it more then intriguing that this comes up so soon after certain Navy Br(ass) speaks out of his ass and then gets obliterated for regurgitating bad information to anyone dumb enough to listen i.e. his superiors.
I agree that everyone needs to protect themselves because our liberal judges and greedy lawyers won't.
5x5 straight leg leg raises, feet to bar, between squat sets
Those kids can squat BTB or ATG :)
Kind of wondering how you can call this guy weak willed and a panzy a$$. Is it because he is suing?
Assuming as true that he did get Rhabdo from the WOD as listed above, wouldn't that prove that he was not pu$$ing out? That he was going all-out, as far as he could? Pushing his body to the point where the muscle actually broke down and entered into his blood stream?
Clarify your insults people. If you think he is a wuss because of his litigious proclivity, that is one thing. If you think he is a wuss because his body couldn't take a kids CF WOD, then I think there are many hypocrites on this board.
How many times have I seen Crossfitters lauding and encouraging those with low WOD times or scores? Hundreds. If not thousands. How many times have I seen Crossfitters doing BrandX puppy workouts, ecstatic over the slightest increase in their time or weight? Hundreds. Yet, most likely the same people, have such nasty vitriol and insults for someone who was just trying to be fit, and hurt himself. I know, I know , he's now suing for that injury, but these posts I think would be very disturbing for someone new to Crossfit, who didn't have the physical acumen that most do on this board.
Don't disparage this man because his body couldn't keep up with the WOD. Assuming as true that his rhabdo was from these exercises, then he was going all out.
And finally, for the last time, I'm really discouraged by some of the Crossfitters comments on this site today. I've always thought of CF as being better than this. And I've gotten into arguments with people saying that CF isn't an "elitist" work out regimen. This thread kind of proves me wrong.
**Please note that if this guy is fraudulently attempting to get money, I'll be the first one to shout him down and insult his manliness. If his rhabdo was from another cause, such as drug abuse, alcohol abuse, or anything other reason other than the exercises he performed at Ruthless, then he deserved whatever came his way.
second week of the zone diet, deadlifted 425, 20 lbs more then my PR, it was almost scary how easy it went up too, i dunno if its the diet but im also suffering from the flu
Just for the hell of it I decided to do the "Makimba" workout, as rx'ed 2:42. This is a good warm up workout!
#370 - Well said. I often wonder what new CrossFitters think when they read this board and what their experience of the 'CrossFit Community' is?
Discussion and debate are wonderful. I love hearing varying points of view, because I'm challenged to get clearer on what I believe and value, however, there seem to be some very vocal posters on this board who are quick to judge, call names, and make comments that are closed minded and inflammatory. It is these posts which often make me wonder if this is a community that is in alignment with my beliefs and values.
I heard this the other day: 'If 'your people' are judging you, they're not your people.
You've made some great points today. I appreciate your posts and the other thoughtful posts - of which there have been many.
For what it's worth, one of our guys posted 6 Makimbas in our workout "How many Makimbas?"
(perform as many Makimba workouts in 20 minutes as possible).
Just for kicks I asked my 5 year old daughter if she wanted to try this work out last night....She did it in 5:30 and smiled the entire time.
Forgive me if I am repeating something that has been said already; I've only had time to skim the comments.
The main issue here is not what the workout was; nor even the fact that he got rhabdo (as unfortunate as it is). The underlying problem here is the fact that Mr. Makimba is wrong in using a whole community of people as a means to escape personal responsibility, and is also wrong in twisting the truth in order to do so.
To expand, take a look under the first count being brought against Ruthless: negligence. Here, we are presented with a dishonest account of how the trainer-client relationship functions. It states that: "He [Mr. Lopez] gave [the] plaintiff unreasonable and hazardous instructions, entreating and *demanding* [emphasis added] that [the] plaintiff exert extraordinary effort, not cease to rest, drink fluids... etc." This assumes that the trainer-client relationship functions on a Soviet C&C-type system, which only works in one direction and is essentially rigid and unsympathetic. This is not true: anyone who has been with a trainer knows that, if one turns to the trainer and says "this is enough", the trainer will accept that. It was, therefore, within Mr. Makimba's powers - and by extension his personal responsibility - to lower the level of exertion to manageable levels.
The second count, failure to warn, has similar problems. We are told that "CrossFit is an extreme form of exercise" and is known to carry "serious risks of injury". It is then implied that the defendants, because they "promoted [...] CrossFit" should not have "failed to warn Mr. Mimms of the risks and dangers inherent in the CrossFit regimen." If this is true, then I feel that people should enjoy the privilege of suing any bar they have ever gotten drunk at: you see, bars sell alcohol, "a substance toxic to humans" which is known to carry "serious risks of damage to health." Since bars promote alcohol, and do not carry detailed information on the inherent risks and dangers of drinking, they have failed to warn; if this was not the case, people would stop, rest, drink non-alcoholic fluids and cease alcohol consumption. Since that doesn't happen, it seems clear that Mr. Makimba should have taken personal responsibility in finding out the risks and dangers of exercise, like we do with alcohol, prior to the training session; if he had done, then any failure to apply that knowledge was negligence on his part, not on the part of Mr. Lopez or Ruthless.
Beyond that, he is also wrong in showing the kind of indifferent, reckless disregard towards the possible wider consequences of his actions that Captain Pickering did some weeks ago.
Once again, thanks for opening this issue up for comment.
I would have thought by now that anyone who's spent any time on this site would be far beyond the cromagnon like association of female genitalia and weakness.
Interesting phenomenon that John Stossel describes in one of his books - short version, folks with pending lawsuits for injury suffer more and stronger symptoms of their injury - which strangely decrease after the lawsuit is over. That is to say - the mind seems to 'hold on to' the injury when the injury is needed to 'win the case.' The mind then gets on with the healing when the suffering is no longer 'good for anything.' Hopefully, Makimba will lose this lawsuit and then get back to the pursuit of a real life.
Another interesting but well observed phenomenon is that deep pockets draw the lawsuits - about ten years ago, I was speaking with an MD who pointed out that doctors without malpractice insurance get sued much less frequently than do those with coverage. There's an obvious reason why, in that doctors w out coverage often don't have enough net worth to make the lawsuit attractive enough for an attorney to represent the 'injured' party. Good example of this happened when Coach was discussing whether or not to sue a former associate who stole intellectual property - the former associate's total net worth wouldn't have covered the costs of the suit even if complete victory were achieved.
While there's certainly evidence that Makimba suffered rhabdo, it would seem a stretch that he can 'prove' it was associated with this kid workout.
It may also be argued that it is within the due diligence of a trainer to assume that a competitive wrestler was not susceptible to injury from such a low demand workout. I think others have already pointed out the obvious - what else did he do after the workout that took this 13s/rep workout (certainly not high intensity for your average wrestler) into rhabdo territory? Spider Chick is right about getting his VA claim and also his DD214 info - will be very interesting to see what that reveals. Perhaps the guy was a fine Sailor; but it would be good to know.
Always interesting to see the Sailor bashing when something like this comes up. I've been working with Sailors for nearly 20 years, and I've certainly seen my share of dirtbags wearing the uniform. Sailors are not of course characterized by their monster fitness levels, but they don't need monster fitness levels to excel at their jobs, so I have learned to accept and be damned grateful for an unfit Sailor who excels at making ships and planes work properly.
As I have written before, these same seemingly unfit Sailors will slog around an aircraft carrier flight deck for 14 hour day after 14 hour day, rain or shine, desert heat or winter cold and wind - and when their world goes to shit, they pick up fire hoses and "run the wrong way."
78% of graduates from US high schools are not qualified to serve as enlisted men/women in today's armed forces.
There are a very few in our country who have room to cast aspersions towards US Navy Sailors. I see no virtue in painting all Sailors with a Makimba brush and I question the character of those who seem to need to find a reason to do so. Paul
Darije, well said, thanks. Paul
Ladder 1-10-1 of:
20# ball slam to partner
20# wall-ball sprawl
24" box jumps
Comment #369 - Posted by: richie
Richie - it gets down to whether the person is question is perceived as a threat or not - in this case, as in the case of the Navy Captain last month, the perception of threat elicits the instinctual attacking response. At least, that's what it looks like from here ...
I agree - not the best of themselves the folks in this community can show, and pointless to boot.
I set up an 'obstacle course' in my backyard for my 9 year old daughter and her friends to do--and it's at least as punishing as "Makimba."
Better call my lawyer.
I don't think rubbing Makimba's face in it on the CF site was beneath Coach. I thought it was hilarious. Its just what I would do to any of my family or buddies who broke weak enough to whine, snivel and cry about pain from a self-indiced workout muchless file a suit about it. I would expect the same in turn from my family and buddies if I wussed out like Makimba.
As for the kids scrawl, give it a rest; they are just kids, and wee ones at that. At least they performed where it counts with the WOD and didn't cry foul over it. I am no calligrapher myself...
Finally, I, too, am a police officer and CF helps me bring it home every night. Three years ago I was in a fight with a guy 70 lbs heavier and 4 inches taller than me who was still in the act of wife beating as I pulled up in the yard. He ran a short distance then turned and squared off. After a fight that ended on the ground with him cuffed, I realized as I stood up that I still felt good and ready to rock unlike previous times that I had barely enough strength to puke. I was able to radio in and get him in to my car by the time back-up arrived. It was all due to CF, especially my favorite exercises of DB swingthrus, thrusters, pushups, burpees and deadlifts.
#271: The very nature of competition is to put others down. Remember “Dodge ball” the movie? True words spoken there. Now, this doesn’t necessarily equate to poor sportsmanship, but Makimba is a sore loser. Sore losers suck. But, I do agree with you on your point about docs not being better than you ‘cause you have a masters. Perfect example, I had knee surgery and 6 weeks later my ortho surgeon told me I was cleared to play rugby. So I did and boy was he wrong. Pain, swelling, instability. A year later after some REAL sports therapy I was back to normal. Structurally, the knee was fine, but the surgeon didn’t consider the soft-tissue aspect.
BUT… I didn’t blame him for the issues I had after he told me it was ok to play. It’s my knee and I chose to go back onto the rugby pitch. I took my pains and solved the problem.
#304 CrossFit has done enough and doesn’t need to do more. It’s free but if you join a CF gym they scale everything back for you. C’mon, dude.
#347: “The burden of the weak is left to the strong, and generally not appreciated.” I love you.
#374: Are you SEAL? Tell me you are…
I havent looked at all posts yet, but can I make a motion to have "Makimba" made into the official CFWU? Maybe the official CFWU on one day of the week, like casual friday?
What do you think about #386? I think the filter may have got rhabdo:).
Places that sell alcohol are highly regulated (at least in Canada). The people who sell alcohol can be held liable if persons who consume alcohol in their establishments hurt themselves or others.
The safety of CrossFit is a legitimate concern (at the margins). CrossFit has opened up a world of fitness for me personally that I had not even imaged. But, the bigger it gets the more obvious it seems to me that some sort of due diligence will be required of owners and certified trainers (perhaps it's already in place?). Do the work now (define the margins) before things get messier. An ounce of prevention is worth...at least 15 to 20 burpees, ok, maybe 5.
In some ways this may be a good thing for the Crossfit community. Regardless of what everyone thinks about Makimba there is an implication that a Crossfit affiliate did harm through negligence. I think evaluating this case and the ultimate outcome is going to serve as a template for the future. There are a lot of issues here that have to be resolved. In the medical world we have to constantly worry about liability and ensure that the care of our patients is appropriate and just. There are so many guidelines and rules out there that we hire personnel just to help keep track. Many of you own an affiliate or have the desire to own an affiliate. From a purely medical perspective I'm not sure all who certify are ready to just hop out there and instruct the general population. Don't get me wrong or misinterpret what I'm saying. I believe that the instruction and training posted here is outstanding. I tend to believe someone like Coach or Mr. Rippetoe when they discuss training because they have years of experience and study under their belts. I have close to 18 years in the medical field with a couple degrees. One thing I've learned in this field is that you have to be incredibly sensitive to your client. That is part of the Crossfit philosophy. It's not all about how to do a squat correctly or developing your pose. Just like medicine your client has faith that you are going to take care of them. And that includes keeping them safe from harm. I believe that the Crossfit folks threw out the warning about rhabdo for a very obvious reason that most of us overlook. Because it really could happen to you and/or your client. Most of you don’t believe it can or ever will happen to you or your client. This kind of thing always happens to "someone else". Time and experience will take care of that illusion. You have a pretty tight knit community here so it stands to reason that you would be upset by someone doing this. Well it’s going to happen again folks. And probably more than once. These discussions are brought about so that you can learn from others experience and opinion.
These are questions that are for thought and discussion:
1. What if Mr. Mimms really was pushed beyond his limits? Maybe he quit doing fitness and got out of shape. Happens to most folks as they age as most of you know. Doesn’t matter if it seems like an easy workout to you guys. If his body wasn’t ready for it do you think the trainer should have recognized that and took appropriate precaution? A court of law might see it that way.
2. What if he has some other medical problem and the exercise was the trigger? E.g. sickle cell trait, alcohol, certain drugs, etc. There are many causes (not just exertion) that predispose a person to rhabdo. Is Mr. Mimms wrong because he thinks the workout caused it or is the trainer wrong because he didn’t know all the possible causes of rhabdo and should have verified that prior to beginning training? Did Mr. Mimms get a physical that gave him a full bill of health prior to training? Was a medical questionnaire done by the facility? Would you have put him through the same workout if he said, “Oh by the way, I have congestive heart failure.”? Or what if he didn’t tell you but still had it?
3. What happens if a court of law determines that the trainer is at fault and even goes so far to say that “Crossfit” has a responsibility to ensure the safety of all their clients and develop a means or method in the future to screen for this kind of thing? What about developing some things now?
4. Lay aside your judgment on this individual and/or the trainer for a moment. Regardless of what you or I think there will be an outcome. Good or bad how will it change the way you evaluate your clients or the way you train? Do you feel that an individual with very limited experience and knowledge can train effectively just because he or she has a class I cert?
I did 'Makimba' today just for fun. Finished in 3:09. Good warm-up for Helen.
Didn't this guy sign a waiver before his first intro? Does that protect the affiliate at all?
For newbs, I usually start people with the CFWU and that gives a good impression of their GPP. Then, if they opt to, I usually have them do a 7-10 min Cindy (scaled to their ability). I've had 1 guy stop at the CFWU (3 x 5) and tell me afterward that he was sore for 3 days! I've also had those who do jumping pull-ups, knee push-ups and only manage 2 rounds of Cindy, but say that CF is too hard for them.
Man, I wish I could do more than just 3 pullups!
used 45lb instead of 55 (up 5lb from last time! w00t!)
11:03 (pr by 2:04!)
#379 Apolloswabbie --
It's instructive to contrast the comments on this post with those from 12/27/2005, when Coach posted the link to the Stephanie Cooperman NYT piece.
There were many good responses to her article (and an interesting side discussion on Gym Jones) but no one compared Cooperman to any part of the human anatomy or suggested treating her like "vermin."
The change does not speak well of this community.
Per CF endurance website.
TT 2k C2: 7:21 (PR). Could have done better.
I can't believe this clown. Very good points on the posts, though. Everything should be done to protect the Crossfit way of life. Waiver forms, graduated training programs, appropriate representatives, etc.
LMAO at John Orilla's comments- I couldn't beat your time, though. Got 4:12...getting there. I used that as a WU for a swim ladder 1:00 on/off, 1:00 on/:50 off...down to :10 off and back up the ladder.
Another technical note- rhabdo is common in extreme heat injury. Our men and women in GWOT routinely do patrols in 120+ degree weather with all their kit on. This accounts for the increased numbers in Army and Marines. None of the Navy folks I saw left the FOB (fobbits). Operators excluded, of course. I love all services, even the air force...they give us a ride part of the way, we usually have a mad dash out the door at the end of the ride.
Dude, you have to be joking that you don't think this guy is seeking a jackpot lawsuit! Yes, that's why this community is so disgusted, yes that's why our country needs tort reform. I know you attorneys always have the "clients best interest" in mind, but give me a break!! And as far as whether a jury awards this guy anything, that has nothing to do with whether iti is justified or not, it has everything to do with how your kind presents, twists, distorts the evidence to a jury of "uninformed" peers!
I lived in South Africa for a while, and they would sometimes fix a drink that they called a "Makimba."
As I recall, it was equal parts Coca-Cola and the cheapest possible red wine.
Re: Prole #387
Perhaps my example doesn't stand up to close scrutiny in Canada - I'm not so sure here in the UK. In any case, though, it is only meant to show through a familiar example that it is practically impossible for prior warning to be given to us about every activity that we undertake, and that the safety achieved through prior warning is, to a large degree, a matter of personal responsibility. Imagine restaurant menus coming equipped with warnings about the dangers of choking, food poisoning, overeating, excess sugar intake etc.
Secondly, you talk of due diligence. Now, life being what it is, due diligence is not invincible - there will always be cases where reasonable measures are taken, but an unfortunate combination of factors results in an unpleasant outcome. Is it safe to say that that is what has happened here? I would say that it is: looking at the workout, it does not take a great leap of imagination to see that Mr. Lopez, understanding that Mr. Makimba was a beginner and/or had certain debilitating conditions, in order to minimize risk to his client, scaled the workout right down to the simplest level. Surely, that is due diligence, at a reasonable level, on Mr. Lopez's and Ruthless' part? Beyond this, then, it was Mr. Makimba's own responsibility to keep within his own limits, which only he knows and understands.
Re: Apolloswabbie #377
Thank you, Paul.
Ran 59km today. I'll be taking a few days off until I can walk again...
First time I have had a comment pulled out - not sure why, but I know that puts me in good company!
I have not read all of the comments for today, but has anyone else actually read over all of the paperwork. The Crossfit guys say "The Navy Wrestler" did a "kids" workout. In the supporting papers it claims that Makimba under went 20 minutes of intense exercise. This draws a little discrepency between the plantiff and the defendent.
If I do the math right the workout he performed according required 90 squat type movements. If what the defendents claims is correct then he would have to perform 4.5 reps of a squat like movement per minute. I think most people can see that this is not a demanding effort by any standard.
However, if a "All Navy Wrestler" shows up to do a "Crossfit" workout, we all know theres a little pride on the line. If Makimba did the 15-10-5 routine and did not find it challenging I can imagine this quickly turning into a Cindy style workout with MRAP in 20 minutes and would more closely match what is in the supporting paper work.
I know from doing Crossfit for the past 4 years that that even a workout like "Makimba" performed for MRAP in 20' will put a hurting on you for days if your really pushing yourself.
I was not there, I do not know, but thought I would share.
If the trainer did due diligence and an unfortunate thing happened then that is unfortunate (for the client and for the trainer, and for the gym and even for CrossFit if the trainer had some sort of accreditation). But if the trainer took reasonable care then he won't be liable.
Bad things happen, agreed. Due diligence makes them less costly. If CrossFit hasn't done so yet, it should put up some diligence walls between it and those who would take money to train other's in CrossFit's name.
I have no opinion on Mr. Mimms.
I'll be looking for Coach to post his claim against Ruthless Training Concepts for loss of goodwill.
There's a complete lack of common sense in this lawsuit. I wonder if my friend can sue me for the soreness he felt after a CrossFit workout...
My whole point was that there is not enough information available to determine whether or not the lawsuit is strictly for fraudulent monetary gain. On its face, the lawsuit is NOT frivolous LEGALLY. Do you see the distinction there? The guy was involved in a workout with a trainer that resulted in his injury (assuming as true the workout with Ruthless caused the injury which you must do when looking at a factually sufficient complaint). He alleges that the negligence of the trainer resulted in his injury.
The guy was injured (whether or not it was from the workout, I don't know) and is entitled to relief for that injury if it was due to someone else's negligence.
Here's a hypothetical. I'm a carpenter. You hire me to make a shed for you to workout in. I tell you that I know what I'm doing and that you'll love the results, just put up with my dust for a couple of days. Your shed is built, and you put in home made rings to practice your muscle ups. One day, while doing a set of 30 muscle ups for time, your home made rig causes the shed to fall on top of you. You go to the hospital and get your injuries taken care of. You hire another carpenter who looks at your shed and says, "Well, it wasn't your fault that the shed came down, if I would have constructed this thing, I would have used a different material, and I think that the carpenter you hired was negligent in his actions."
As a result of this shed falling on you, you have medical bills and lasting permanent injuries. What do you do? Do you man up, and in order not to be wuss, not try to recover for your damages?
I would, and I would hope you would too. This is a similar thing to what happened here. Don't let the fact that you're a Crossfitter cloud your judgment. Again, this guy isn't suing Crossfit. All he does is allege that it can be a dangerous activity that may result in egregious bodily harm. SO DOES WALKING! It's boilerplate material in all Complaints. It is NOT AN ATTACK ON CROSSFIT. This lawsuit is not about the inherent danger of Crossfit as an institution. It is not a kamikaze divebomb on the fitness regimen that has literally changed my life. It is an action seeking recovery for damages that the Plaintiff believes were caused by the negligence of his trainer. THAT IS ALL.
This is the very reason that you have lawyers and a justice system. You have two parties that believe in diametrically opposed theories for the cause of a bodily injury. You hire your attorneys, they argue their case in front of an impartial fact-finder, and hopefully the truth will come out.
I think some people are misinterpreting my stand on this issue. I don't know if this is b.s. or not, or what the injuries were from. We simply don't have enough information to pass judgment on that yet. I'm not defending frivolous lawsuits, and I'm not saying that I support Mr. Mimms in his contentions.
Lastly, before you became all vitriolic about lawyers, you should know that I'm a DEFENSE attorney. In other words, I defend businesses and individuals from lawsuits on a daily basis. I've read frivolous lawsuits. I've read about 5'1, 270#, 55 year old woman suing a business for hundreds of thousands of dollars because an employee vehicle rear-ended her. There was no damage to either vehicle, and the Plaintiff never complained of injuries until WEEKS later. Guess what those injuries were? Chronic knee and back pain. Yeah, because 270# on a 5'1" frame doesn't cause stress to those areas.
I love how you try to subtly insult attorneys. You obviously have no idea what this legal system does for the everyday citizen. I think my favorite part of your little diatribe was:
"it has everything to do with how your kind presents, twists, distorts the evidence to a jury of "uninformed" peers!"
Yeah, because an attorney can't be moral and ethical? Are attorneys that bad of people? You've insulted me, and I sincerely hope you never go to an attorney for anything in your life, because anything less than that would be hypocritical.
Its obvious to me that you're an attorney and could and would likely defend this guy. I have made no personal judgements against this Mimms guy or you. Simply that our culture abuses the system of tort that we have and every American pays for it everyday. Now, as for this sailor claiming to be disabled by a "kids" workout, and yes I let my 7 and 5 yo LITTLE GIRLS do it yesterday and both finished in under 8 minutes and said, "that was fun, can we go swimming now?"!!! Doesn't the Navy have PT standards, don't we pay, and yes I PAY taxes, our sailors to maintain a certain level of battle readiness, doesn't this gentleman have responsibility for his own fitness and could he not have discontinued the workout at anytime. I don't recall reading how exactly he was forced to complete in 20 minutes this "horrible" workout that my 6 yo daughter laughed at after 8! Don't lecture me or anyone else on this post about the appropriateness of his claims against a trainer, who in my opinion did put him through a beginner workout. No, I don't know all the details nor do I condone some of the personal and profane attacks against him here, but based on what I know about the case, this country's tort situation, and now you, I will tell you this is a frivolous lawsuit, and everyone else here realizes that!! It will come out that this guy has some other factors contributing to his case of rhabdo and his back injury, and if you were reasonable and not "programmed" to defend anyone for a dollar, you would admit that too! I think thats the whole point of the Makimba Kids video...Coach is saying "give me a break", and so am I.
As a member of the military (USMC), I am embarrassed by this guy's lawsuit. Unless the trainer had a gun to his head, he chose to engage in this activity. This is yet another example of avoidance of personal responsibility and being an opportunist trying to get rich by litigation.
Bottom line : this guy is a p@ssy and should be ashamed of himself!
Note to self... Take it easy on the Navy guys. Could get sued. Hmm, I think I better take jumping pullups out of the fundamentals too.
There are certainly some discrepancies here. What did this guy do prior to the workout? Was he at a wrestling practice, did he do sprints earlier, etc, etc? The case for Rhabdo doesn't add up...I'm sure that we're all familiar with the pathology.
In terms of the comment above about combat readiness(406)- there are different types of jobs in the military. He could have been a mail clerk prior to doing the wrestling thing...who knows? "All Navy wrestler" doesn't impress me. Also, standards vary across the board for PT. Marines have the highest standard (I'm sad to say) with the Navy at the bottom. My point is that we (Infantry nugs) don't rely on a spoon to breach the door in the stack. I rely on a spoon to give me my grits, eggs, and fruit in the morning. Different job, different focus.
It is interesting that CrossFit, Inc. was not named as a defendant. There is a tendency for plaintiffs to name a variety of parties in order to ensure maximum recovery. I would like to know whether CrossFit, Inc. was left out because Mimms’ attorneys was unable to attach theory of liability to CF Inc. or for other reasons. The answer may have implications for CF Inc.’s relationship with its affiliates. Additionally, it may only be a matter of time before an affiliate, once sued, turns around and sues CF Inc. in an attempt to recover damages. It would be wise to anticipate the theories that might be used to make such a claim and examine their merits so that CF Inc. is prepared to act and/or takes action now to mitigate this risk.
CrossFit, Inc. and its U.S. affiliates operate within a litigious culture. Eventually, someone will be seriously injured – or worse - doing CrossFit and it will make the headlines. The media will not care whether CF is to blame or whether there are mitigating factors. CF Inc. should have a plan on the shelf right now to address this, both to deal with the media (and business) fallout and also in the event they are named in the litigation. If that injured individual is active duty military and it is a high profile case, there may also be a push to ban CF in one or more branches of our Armed Forces. It is important for businesses to prepare for all possibilities, even the most unpleasant. In the current business environment, risk management is a necessity, not an option.
#82 Kevin – Depending on the state, the shield of protection afforded by the limited liability structure only protects you against the mistakes of the Company or another member, not your own. This is an important distinction. By way of example, if you and I are the members of an LLC and I screw up, the LLC could lose its assets in an adverse judgment and so could I, but your personal assets (e.g. house, car, etc.) would be safe. That's why most professionals (lawyers, doctors, etc) put all the assets in the name of their spouse. It is not necessarily this simple, and this is not to be construed as legal advice (I have to insert that) but something you should be aware of.
#4 KevinT -- I am a corporate/intellectual property attorney.
Re: Prole #401
I think we're trying to say something similar, just in different ways.
"But if the trainer took reasonable care then he won't be liable." Agreed. I am simply saying that it is obvious that he has done so (as explained in the points above); the conclusion, once that is established, is that Mr. Mimms should accept that what happened was beyond his trainer's control, and therefore his responsibility (for, if not his, then who's?) - he was wrong not to do so, because he is now using people as a means to an end (the end being, if nothing else, "proving" that he was not responsible).
Not knowing him personally, I am not saying that Mr. Mimms is a bad person, just that he has performed done something wrong in this particular case (and we can all think of situations where we have done that in our lives). For all I know, the conditions he suffered after the workout made him lash out in fear.
"If CrossFit hasn't done so yet, it should put up some diligence walls between it and those who would take money to train others in CrossFit's name." I'd say this was a related but separate topic to the one I've been discussing above. How would you suggest that this be done? Also, bear this in mind: Perhaps the current system is strong enough as it is. There are now hundreds of CrossFit affiliates around the globe, and many more thousands of people practising CrossFit. Despite this, this is the first time (that we know of - Coach may well be aware of more) that a participant is claiming that he was neglected (and, in my opinion, the claim is not strong). Surely this suggests that CrossFit has successfully managed to create a system where due diligence is applied by those who "would take money to train others in CrossFit's name"?
Firstly, I would never take this case, as I refuse to do Plaintiff's work. Want to know why? Because I see way too many frivolous lawsuits in my day to day grind, and I realized a long time ago that I would never make any money as I could only take cases that I felt morally obligated to take. But, and I stand by this, this guys lawsuit doesn't look frivolous to me. It may be that there was no negligence on the part of the trainer and gym (I hope), but I still don't think the suit is frivolous.
Again, I think you're getting confused with the arguments that I'm making. You're looking at me through the incorrect lens of a Plaintiff's attorney. I am not one a Plaintiff's attorney.
You see, I think I'm being reasonable as I'm awaiting all of the facts behind the injury before jumping to a conclusion. I feel that you're being unreasonable because you refuse to admit that there is a chance that the trainer was negligent. I think that's a myopic point of view on your part. Just because someone is associated with CF, or does CF style workouts, it doesn't mean that they are free from blame in certain circumstances.
Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree on this? If you think it's a frivolous lawsuit, I'm not going to denigrate you for the opinion. I've delineated my stance on the issue, and you've given yours. But please, try to use some respect, instead of attempting to insult me and my profession, saying I've been "programmed" to defend anyone for a dollar. I'm a DEFENSE attorney. I defend businesses from personal injury suits. Trust me, if I thought this was frivolous on it's face I would tell you.
That's a great post. I'm sure if there was anyway for a Plaintiff's attorney to impute liability on HQ they would in a heartbeat. I think that there might be some theories of liability available to a potential Plaintiff to sue Crossfit, Inc., but I don't think they would hold up in Court. I'd have to look at the contractual documents between the affiliates and HQ, but I'm pretty sure that there would be no cause of action against HQ as the affiliates most likely just license the brand, with there being no overall supervision of the affiliates by HQ.
Well, I agree to disagree, don't think you personally are the problem with our justice system, but believe you do see and "live" the problem everyday. I'm not confused by your points, you asked for clarification as to why this community was attacking this guy personally, and I was answering that. Although I disagree with the personal profane attacks, I think you now see why everone is venting, we are sick of this and attorneys generally support this nonsense, many of you profit from it. I'm glad to hear that you are one of the "good guys", as are a number of my close friends, but I'll tell them also, until Americans start taking responsibility as adults for their own actions and stop blaming others, this only gets worse. Besides, if my daughters, who usually do ballet dancing, can do this and barely break a sweat, do you really expect educated people to take this lawsuit seriously, come on counsel. Does that mean it won't get to court and waste more of my tax money, more resources, no it doesn't, and that my friend is the real tragedy here.
You are a thoughtful and obviously an ethical guy and I'm sure a very good attorney. I respect you guys, may need you one day, but we just disagree on this....lets you and me keep doing the right thing and definitely kepp supporting CrossFit. Hope to see you post on other things and on your wods. I really have enjoyed reading your perspective. Peace :]
I can't argue with that post and I appreciate your candor and good-faith arguments. I think it's difficult for me to see things from a non-legal point of view after all my training, but sometimes the perspective of a non-lawyer is equally valid (if not more so) and should be given the utmost respect.
I look forward to reading your future posts as well. One of the things I like about Crossfit is the camaraderie of those who actively participate in it. Not everyone can do these WODs, and those that suffer through them on a daily basis garner my automatic respect. So, in that vein, I look forward to reading your posts as well, and hopefully see you continue to grow and improve through CF.
I actually know the parties involved.
The trainer (who has whooped my @$$ on a NUMBER of occasions) pushed Mimms hard. Mimms didn't protect himself by saying, "NO." Mimms is hurt. Sues. Has a strong case and Mimms may actually win.
The lesson here is simple. To the person working out- know when to stop. It's your body and you're responsible for protecting it.
To the trainers, realize that training people in this country means that when working with our population of out of shape types, lawsuits are bound to happen.
Know the law. Protect yourself as a trainer. Retain good counsel.
Just saw this and then saw the workout he was doing that supposedly left him disabled. Seriously? That workout looks like something by 3 year old would do! Some people are all about the money.