2:05!?

Speal: that's friggin' SICK. You amaze.

My favorite workout of all.

The girl (elana<sp)on american gladiator was doing o-lifts on her little preview does she do crossfit? I hope not because she quit.

2:05 Fran?!?!?!?!

I think you have to be able to do the "snake man pullups" like Speal and OPT to get those killer times.

Will someone break the 2:00 mark on Fran??

It's kind of like the 4 minute mile for the CrossFit world

Just curious... is anyone here going to be at Bonnaroo (music festival in TN)? Not sure why it came to mind but I thought it would be nice to have a group to keep us all motivated amid the revelry. I'm sure I'll be engaging in some unhealthy consumption that weekend, so it'd be nice to assuage some of the guilt while I'm there.

dat's mutant superhero style performance. truly awe-inspiring.

funny article...like the stick people

wowwow Speal! crazy thing is that doesn't really shock me.. You're an animal

Making my way through the last 3 workouts right now. I haven't been able to get to a gym or a computer in days. I'm freaking out. Feels so great to be in a CrossFit Gym!

Just did the OHS. 95, 105, 115, 120, 125

Failed at 130 because I couldn't jerk it with a wider grip. I can't jerk from behind my head either. It's really making me mad. I could have gone for more reps at 125.

On To the Muscle ups.

the Zone is going really well. I'm still weighing and measuring and haven't touched bread. The constant hunger is going away.. I hope that doesn't mean I'm eating too much again! :)

that video was incredible... I love the "snake man pullups"

I think that the only way to break the two minute barrier for Fran is for Speal to wear his famous "speed sox".

Hey, looking good Freddie C. at one world!

Have Fun, Train Hard,

Billy

(clap clap clap clap clap...shaking my head)

if there's something on me that isn't injured, I don't know what it is. all former strength gone. replaced by pain.

ow. just mfg ow.

and, speal, i bow before you.

Dude i love the guy and girl in the back round doing dips with gloves on..... oh yeah and the 2:05 fran was pretty sick too...
Speal i bow before you.

Speal, Good stuff. Can i thow in the towel now and put all my money on you for the Games?

Andy,
It looks like you monkey got out again. haha. thats dirty.

Speal...my hero...congrats on the new killer record.

Speal is a machine! He makes it look easy. I'd still by on the first set of 21 while he's getting a drink afterward.

How do you do the zone?

what's like a good website for that?

Amazing form on the pullups, i would love to get all the parts of my body to work together like that.

Speal - that was incredible. You definitely have the potential to beat 2 minutes! Great job!

Wow ... those are the fastest pullups I've ever seen. Great job Speal!

subprime primer was pretty good in explaining what a mess things have become.

If anyone is interested in getting further depressed about U.S. financial markets, they might read Kevin Phillips' "Bad Money."

After reading it I'm looking to become one of the one percent of Americans who are immigrating to another country.

#19
You can back order crossfit Journal 21 for a basic overview on the zone. I have been on it for the last month and a half and seen pretty amazing results. It lets you eat "just about" anything as long as it is the proper portion.

I just have a printout of it on the counter and i build my meals for the day accordingly. At first getting over the lack of sugar will hurt your feelings, but past that it's all golden.

Strict following of the diet will cut off body fat like nothing else. There is also a book titled "in the zone" i believe, at any rate the details on where to get the book are in the Journal 21 entry. I am at work and can't pull it off the top of my head.

Cheers,
Erik

Speal congrats on the record time.

The similarities from this layman's point of view between the recent sub-prime mortgage crash and the crash in 1929 that set of the Great Depression are freaky. Yet again people were playing around with money they didn't really have, nor were able to back up, building a huge house of cards that looked great on paper but collapsed at the first puff of wind. (ie someone actually saying, pay up.)

I'm constantly amazed at how willing people are to go into debt, especially when they don't have the income to support it. Maybe Shakespeare's the Merchant of Venice should be required reading for all grade 10s.

Phenomenal work Speal. Well done. Now who's going to do sub 2min...?

EPIC!

Videos like that get me so motivated.

nothing needs to be said about that performance.... its was amazing.

ill be trying the snake next time

Speal - Congrats on the new record. Awesome work!

Wow!

Speal - Simply incredible!

Scratch my last post ... I went back and tried the OHS again:

130# x 4 (could have kept going for another rep or two)

135# x 4 ! OH YEAH! I think I could have got a few more in that time too :)

Then instead of doing the MUs I did the WOD the class was doing..
I found out AFTER that it was a Gym Jones workout. No wonder it was a hot mess.

M/18/145

Speal.... you are a friggen beast man,

amen....

Awesome Cert in Alexandria
A very high quality of movement by participants
Lots of drive and determination to make great things happen - congrats to you all!

My hats off to you Speal for you are not human. That was incredible. Keepup the good work. You make it look so simple and thats what motivating. I would venture to sy that you own Fran.

SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

I gotta try those pullups...

Just wanted to say that it was a great time at the cert this weekend in Alexandria. If anyone is on the fence about attending one, its definitely worth sinking the costs. It will definitely make you a better crossfitter and better trainer. Huge thanks is due to the coaches and trainers for all their expertise and advice.

Whew, nice work on the 2:05 Fran, Speal. That's seriously fast, man.

Speal...exceptional work!

Whew...Absolutely Amazing....Incredible Efficiency of movement! Just plain incredible

good god! was he even winded?! maybe i need to listen to what he was listening to. that and do thrusters better...and pull ups better. way to go speal.

See, in my head that's what MY Fran looks like. Then the clock starts...

Awesome work Speal!

Seriously, when is anybody gunna reach the peak fran? I mean, you just can't keep getting faster and faster world records. It has to stop sometime. Thats just crazy. Props to that guy (i forget what your name was, sorry).

Missed todays workout due to working construction. Try to pick it up tomorrow on the rest day.

Wow!! Getting a Fran time like that while doing thrusters that are nearly 3/4 BW....impressive to say the least.

Speal, that was amazing work!!! You are truly CrossFit.

Awesome job Speal awesme, and to top it all off with FULL ROM. You should be proud of that big time. 1:59 next?

SPEAL! My hat off to you Sir.
I cannot wait for the sub 2 minute video!

So incredible. I'm hoping to hit 7 minutes and I'll be jumping for joy...

Congrats Speal.

That was an amazing fran. Absolutely incredible.

This guy is a mutant. I am totally in awe.

Strong work Speal.

Allison NYC???? I thought you joined us out here on the left coast

Those were the filthiest pull-ups I've ever seen. I am awestruck.

Wow. Freakin' amazing.

How much does Speal weigh? I'm doing Fran RX'ed at 140# and I'm pretty stoked about my 5:00 time this afternoon.

You guys are so hardcore, I'm surprised it doesn't say "rest day for time"

-Speal
I think this video speaks for all of the crossfit community.

-Speal
I think this video speaks for all of the crossfit community.

Woah. I hate to parrot what's already been said but mad props for that Fran.

I could beat that time if I quit after the first 21 thrusters.

We are really getting big. Soon more trainers than trainees. I see alot of new certs media cert for example. I want in, I would like to offer a tree climbing/felling cert. You can get certified by me to climb and care for your own trees. It requires every bit of the ten components of fitness to be good at it. Let me know. High Angle Tree Service, Tucson,Az. I love CrossFit, but it's only exercise. Have fun.
Nick

Speal - Great work. And without the super socks to boot. Absolutely amazing, looks like I am going to have to ratchet down my time as well now since I typically shoot for 2xSpeal Time and I am not at 4:10 yet.

...Mike

Wow..just wow...

Speal is the 5th Cylon...

Legit!
Sub 2 minutes if he hadn't had to waste so much time between the snake up bar and the thruster!

Fine, fine work.

kstar

I couldn't wait to see this video when I heard about it on Saturday...

Awesome...

Thanks to all you guys @ the One World cert this past weekend, I had a blast and learned a ton.

P.S. It's hard to hit that balance when you're out drinkin.

Speal - awesome! Congrats my friend, brought a tear to my eye to see it. Paul

cannot even begin to say how amzing that performance is, makes me feel old and fat.

Woohoo!! Utah kicks ass...okay Speal does, but we can bask in the glow!

Unfortunate background music though. "Gone dancing..."

One mean machine that Speal!

I have never seen anybody do the butterfly out of water before! Amazing pull ups!! Inspiring!!!

I have never seen anybody do the butterfly out of water before! Amazing pull ups!! Inspiring!!!

Good lord, I just did Fran in 30 minutes. I suck at pull-ups.

The day I can do Fran in less than 10 will be a glorious day, and still it will be 5 times longer than Speal's PR.

Oh well, we can't all be CrossFit heroes I guess...

My first MU on a pullup bar!!!!! That was followed by 29 more for my first MU WOD. Made up burpee WOD as well and results posted on respective days.

Nice job, Speal. Looking good!

Thanks to everyone at the Alexandria Cert this weekend. What a phenomenal collection of speakers! It a large amount of information but they all did a great job of breaking it down in a personable and entertaining way. I'm looking forward to putting this stuff to work back here at home.

Chris from group 4: Sorry I didn't catch you on the way out. Great to meet you and good luck back in Oregon!

Jerry: I met one of your athletes Sunday night at King Street Blues.

I look forward to seeing you all again some time!

Speal that's beautiful! Nice work.

I'd settle for 3x Speal's time.

Ok, newbie questions here - what is recommended if you miss a workout? Should I try to make it up on a rest day, or just skip the workout and keep rolling with the WODs? If you skip, you miss out on a comparison day for the next time that workout comes around, but on the other hand I get the impression that the WODs are intentionally designed to include rest each 4th day. Thoughts? Thanks!

2:05???!!?? I quit

Great "article," I was just wondering how all that worked(i'm sure it was oversimplified but it does make sense).

I've never seen a person do pullups quite that fast. . .

Zone Diet/Omega 3 Question: Does anybody use the Zone Diet OmegaRx supplements, if so, have you noticed differences in performance from the other store bought varieties?
Thanks.

IN-FN-CREDIBLE!!!
Well done Speal. You are an ispiration to us all.

Speal - Amazing Effort!

Article - would be funny it if wasnt true...

#61 - LOL! (glad to know i'm not the only geek here...)

Speal, that's inspiring. Simply awesome. Maybe you could shoot us a pullup technique vid for the AFT kip.

5k this morning. 28:15
Hey, free t-shirt!

Speal's time was amazing. To top it off the workout was done at about 7000 ft. above sea level.

Speal- Unreal Bro!

Holy Crap!

That's so awesome, what a machine!

#18

There is a website www.zoneperfect.com but the best book I've found is "The Formula" by Gene and Joyce Daoust. It's a much easier (i.e. more lay persons) read than entering and mastering the zone by Dr. Barry Sears. It gives you ideas for proper number of blocks for different body weights and activity levels and about 200 recipes.

Speal, absolutely amazing. CF would be hard pressed to find a better representative; mutant athlete and solid character. Way to represent.

Allison, stop doing Gym Jones workouts and get yourself down to CFSD.

Speal- Well done my brutha.....Have you considered Beijing in Aug?

F/22/5'2''/120
I saw Allison NYC today at MY gym! MY gym! Sooooo excited. But too shy to say hello. I will next time. She was doing heavy OHS!
I did Fran tonight 10:38 it was my first time using 65lbs for the bar. I usually do 55. And this is the first time in about 2 months that I have gotten all the way through a WOD with pull ups and not had bloody hands after. Yay!

F/22/5'2''/120
I saw Allison NYC today at MY gym! MY gym! Sooooo excited. But too shy to say hello. I will next time. She was doing heavy OHS!
I did Fran tonight 10:38 it was my first time using 65lbs for the bar. I usually do 55. And this is the first time in about 2 months that I have gotten all the way through a WOD with pull ups and not had bloody hands after. Yay!

wow, careful Coach, that subprime primer thing undermines that whole "just let free markets do their thing" mentality. I mean, pointing out that "...the [jerks] at the SEC don't let us sell this junk to widows and orphans..." might be acknowledging the usefulness of government restraining free-market enthusiasm.

In fact, there's a lot of places here where the relaxation of regulation caused this mess -- letting SPV's have free run in the interests of the free market, defederalizing the rating groups (moody's, S&P), in the interest of the free market, etc.

2:05 Fran...

...wow.

Speal, you are one gifted genetic freak! Good looking on Fran, bro!

Can't wait to see you again at the games this year.

Here's an even shorter, simpler cartoon explanation of the mortgage crisis, from the Washington Post: http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2008/03/14/GR2008031401451.gif

andrewj #88,

In a truly free market we'd let the f@ckers starve but even a heartless social Darwinist like me wants to draw the line somewhere.

Still, I wonder how many home owners would have opted for a house they could actually afford if they weren't mandated to carry PMI, or if they knew that they weren't going to be protected by debtor friendly bankruptcy laws. I wonder how many of those "investors" would have been more careful with their money if they weren't certain that the government would step in and make things better if it all went south. I wonder how many of the banks would have shied away from those worthless securities if their depositors weren't federally insured.

It could be that the regulation that already exists encouraged the recklessness that led to this mess. The thing about regulation is that it often creates a need for yet more regulation and even a compassionate egalitarian like me wants to draw the line somewhere.

Strong work Spear! I was amazed with the pullups. Strenght and flexibility in the shoulders looked like the key to those pullups not to mention the pure guts needed to push yourself. Thanks for the motovation!

S/F
Katz

I meant Speal not Spear. Regardless of the name, the man is hard.

S/F
Katz

Speal is hard as woodpecker lips. Inspires me to work harder.

To bring the mortgage crisis even closer to home -- It has inspired me to be extra conservative in my approach to starting my affiliate. I'm not turning to any investors or loans at all. I want the entire operation to be self-financed. This means starting more slowly, and very probably taking a lot longer to get the actual box.

There are plenty of downsides that are easy to see. Life will be extraordinarily difficult - can't afford a decent car, supplements, the most expensive food or meals out, nice workout clothes. Hard choices in buying equipment - no C2 rowers, and how many barbells and bumper plates can we carry in our crappy old Honda SUV?

The upsides are less tangible but just as real. Success will be genuine, derived entirely from the ability to satisfy and retain clients. Their attraction will be based on our ability to train -- no smokescreen of a fancy, attractive gym. Hopefully clients will see that we put every penny back into building the business; we'll show them our plan, what equipment we're buying and when. We'll earn their respect.

The discipline of such a shallow budget will keep our business extremely trim -- nothing frivolous. The number one priority will always be writ large: train the clients, satisfy the clients. There will be zero tolerance for error.

We will only answer to ourselves at the end of the day; only our own asses on the line. I'll need the oversight, counsel and advice -- and moral support -- of friends / advisors; but my judgment will choose their counsel, not guilt, not pressure, not obligation.

This austerity and discipline -- and authenticity -- recall previous generations of how business was done. I think we need a return to this approach.

The SubPrime Primer was great.

more please.

#96 gorillasoph, I would sign on with you in a second. It's the ethic, not the box. Best of luck.

M/6'4"/180/37

I got my first muscle up yesterday! My first two actually.

M/6'4"/180/37

I got my first muscle up yesterday! My first two actually.

Tried those pull ups in SD-scary-Pat did them with ease!-amazing work Mr Speal-nice to see you on here again Miss Bishop-hands still fried-did 50 double jab punchbag pressup burpees yesterday-3.14.

Is there a sub to doing hand stand push ups? I struggle big time with those, and they are part of our WOD today.

#92 RifRafRob-

Huh, it's interesting that you assume the people *getting* the mortgages have "debtor-friendly bankruptcy laws" or that the investors are "certain the government will step in when it all goes south."
I mean, i don't disagree with you that people who get mortgages but don't comprehend what the math means kind of deserve what's coming to them, but the idea that there's much protection or intervention for "the little peoples" is kind of laughable.

The bailout of bear stearns recently is an example of the fed getting involved to prop up the banks who have made these stupid loans. The investors who bought the CDO's have gotten screwed (when 'AAA' fails!) -- not protected. The people losing their houses have gotten screwed. The bailouts (so far) have been for the banks making the loans.

Remember how they kept the garbage on their balance sheets via the SPV's? They're still there. When they "write down" x billion dollars in bad loans, the banks have to stop lending more money. So they say (not without cause) "hey, we're 'too big to fail', and if we have to write this stuff down, we're gonna have to stop writing new loans and everything is gonna *really* stop moving"

I don't know. I think the blame on this one is pretty squarely on the recklessness that followed the repeal of a number of regulatory principles in the '90s. I know that libertarian principles really appeal to me, but the history is so dense with examples of extravagant, irrational greed that has driven markets far from (theoretical) equilibrium suggests that prudent regulation to ensure the alignment of the interests of the individual with the interests of society are very necessary.

It's a hard truth to accept, but maybe someday we can formally acknowledge the fallibility of the markets and quit trusting them to be so all-knowing and all-powerful. It's an interesting contradiction that we know people are stupid in large groups (mobs, anyone?), but we trust a large group of them calling themselves a "market" to be perfectly rational.

The bailout of Bear Stearns was not because the Fed wanted to save the bank, but because they felt not doing so could cause a major dislocation in the world banking system (ie; spreads would go through the rough, worldwide recession etc.). Whether they were correct in doing so we will never know.

As for the housing bubble, the US's incredibly stupid policy of allowing home owners to deduct mortgage payments off their tax bill certainly didn't help.

Also, as far as I'm concerned it won't be the homeowners who will ultimately be hurt the most - they after all can just rent something. It's the shareholders of banks, pension funds (and possibly, but hopefully not taxpayers) which will suffer the biggest losses. Luckily most of them are rich.

As for market failure, I completely agree they exist. The problem is of course that most institutional interventions meant to prevent them end up doing the opposite ie; moral hazard introduced by having the lender of last resort extend cash to an ever widening array of financials.

---

Also, as to the prospective gym owner, not taking out a loan or seeking investors to start a business because a bunch of people took out dumb mortgages on overvalued properties is pretty silly reasoning. Obviously it seems you have other reasons behind that decision, but if your business model is sound, you stand to greatly improve your prospects for success (and quality of life as you build your business) by receiving outside capital. Lending to small and medium-sized business is pretty much the bread and butter of regional banks and a big reason why they make so much money.

Speal, awesome work buddy. That was the most legit looking record breaking Fran I have yet to see. You never cease to amaze me. And only 135# soaking wet, wow!

I didn't think a 2 minute Fran was possible, but I have to say if anyone is going to do it, it will be you. Thanks for inspiring all of us mere mortals to work a little harder.

That was nuts. And those pullups were like butter......

Speal you are a machine!

Chris.....it seems that the rest of the crew at CyborgWorld screwed up on your last "chip" installment.

Ummmm, yeh, we're a little sorry about that.

You were supposed to receive the 20 Gigabyte Muscle Exploser and instead we gave you the 20 Terabyte Insaninator Flux Beyondbeliever.

Please let us know if you experience any side "effects"!

Good morning,

Great news (for me). Unfortunately, I couldn't rest today. Went on a cruise and missed 2 workouts so I am making it up. I did "Fran" today and I have a PR of 9:50. My first time doing it back in 080331 my time was 12:47. Shaved nearly 3 min off.
Crossfit is great. (Even got the stares again!)

Speal-

U R A true CrossFit Mutant.........

Speal, you are my hero. Do you have a record of your Fran times from when you first started CF? That would be really interesting to see.

i will add my 2 cents worth as well.

I cannot believe it is possible for someone to get a time like that for such a taxing workout. It is truly amazing. I would like to think that one day I am able to do Fran without stopping and get my 3:37 down to below 3 mins. My time is nearly twice that of Speal's. Ridiculous.

Can anyone enlighten me as to how long Speal has been Crossfitting for? It would be interesting to see how long I have to add to my 6 months before I am able to get to such a high physical standard.

Again, fair play brother and please keep inspiring us mere mortals......

"Rest Day" = waking up and realizing I dreamed I was at a CF cert last night...

On another note - Plebes have Sea Trials today - I was reading through the station descriptions and all the stations are named for various people- including a couple people honored by CF WODs: "Michael" for LT Michael McGreevy and "Murph" for LT Murphy. Training today is in memory of heroes like them.

Speal...whoa...

Re: the Sub-prime Primer and all of the bleating sure to come for more and more government regulation of this, and other, markets:

Let us not forget that essentially the entire sub-prime mortgage market arose out of a government mandate that banks and other institutions writing mortgages do so in every neighborhood in the U.S., regardless of credit and default risk. These institutions were accused of "red-lining", the practice of refusing to write mortgages in neighborhoods where the risk of default was deemed higher. Of course, many of these neighborhoods were in the inner city and in pockets of rural poor. This, in turn, led to allegations that it was more than just credit risk that was being avoided, that banks were refusing to extend credit to particular, defined groups of people under the guise of avoiding credit risk. Cries of discrimination, groups of victims, and all that.

The opportunity to make money eventually trumps all other factors in the financial world, hence the realization that one need only write the loan to satisfy anti red-lining laws. This is, yet again, an example of the law of unintended consequences at play--another example of government intervention in a market causing a larger problem than the one government proposed to solve.

After seeing how well the anti red-lining regulations have worked one shudders to think about the yet unforeseen consequences of the "solution" to the sub-prime situation that our government will offer to us. Confidence soars as we hear talk of "solving" the crisis of gasoline prices, global warming, health care financing...

Speal. that motivated my day right there!

CRY HAVOC!

never seen pullups done quite like that before ;-O....any articles to teach that?

and thanks for the responses to my question about my being not strong enough to go fast enough to get the proper workout response.

"metcon"? That''s new to me also.

#67 Alex
I think you're on to something pretty profound.

The butterfly stroke is a very powerful stroke for lateral movement in the water.

It just happens to translate directly to vertical movement on a PU bar.

Google 'butterfly stroke video' and look at the similarities.

Here's one I found that's wfs which breaks down the movements and describes the coordination needed for an effective butterfly stroke.
http://www.videojug.com/film/butterfly-stroke-for-beginners

I can nail about 10 'snakeman' pullup (or maybe 'butterfly' is more accurate) like OPT or Speal but eventually I screw up the coordination. Possibly fading strength contributes to the break-down in coordination/timing, but I'm definitely not 'spent' after 10 PU.

Maybe I'm cracked, but I think Alex is onto something. Maybe the technique for the fastest, most efficient PU will come from the water.

Thoughts? Comments? Any swim instructors out there who want to help a fitness community shave time off of PU based workouts?

49m/5'10"/226
"Fran"
#100 thrusters
Shoulder held up well...7:23
compare to 9:48 (#115) on 12-18-07

Speal! That was awesome brother. Inspiring!

Greg Amundson

Those were the coolest pullups I have ever seem. It's almost a shame to call them kipping. They deserve their own category!

Awesome time!! Not a fan of those snaky pull ups though. Looks more like a swing than pushing away from the bar.

I've just realized another thing I love about crossfit - the the bio-mechanical/physics/scientific aspect of it. My gears are turning, and I had to post again.

The 'push' down and away from the bar in the standard Kipping PU is something that bothered me - seemed inefficient. This push results in a jerky front-to-back motion twice per single kipping PU - not the most efficient use of energy. This jerking front to back may be what some non-CFers are critical of when dissing the kipping PU.

The 'butterfly' PU reduces the movement to a single 'back-to-front' motion for each PU in a circular fashion as opposed to a front-to-back-to-front-to-back motion.

It's like the difference between a standard piston engine, (which has to change direction 4 times to compress/fire/exhaust/intake) and a rotary engine.

I will acknowledge that the Kipping PU is very likely the only answer for the amount of power needed to elevate the body high enough to complete a muscle-up. However, the butterfly seems to be a more efficient movement for high-rep PU WODs.

I can't be the only fitness dork who's totally excited by the potential here?

Alex was onto something. What are we going to do with it as a community?

Speal - incredble jaw dropping performance.

Awesome job, Speal.

But as a pullup purist, that kipping was almost obscene! Diff'rent strokes...

Chris - That was phenomenal!
Just like K.Star said:
Squat clean 2nd and 3rd round of thrusters and you'll hit the first sub-2 Fran!

Greg A. - nice to see you alive and well!
How are you brother?

Damn, those are the fastest pull-ups i seen. "snake" pull ups lol. amazing work man.

Those were some WEAK pullups. Since the time of 2:05 was achieved with terrible form, I really don't think it's that big of a deal.

Fran in 2:05 wow!

Great work Speal!!!!!!!
Thanks to Coach, all the trainers and athletes for a great time at this weekends cert in Alexandria!

Question for anybody on the zone. I just started XFit at the beginning of this month and am pretty much OBSESSED! I'm already seeing massive improvements in energy. Anyway, I've been reading about the Zone Diet. I was wondering how many of you actually measure out your food or just kind of guesstimate? Also, if you have a really hard workout one day and are REALLY hungry, are you restricted to how much you can eat or can you cheat and eat a few more vegetables or something just to trick your mind into thinkin you're full?

#131 Brian,

I wasn't gonna go that far with my opinion (since even if I did those crazy "pullups", I'd still probably never hit 2:00).

My personal best Fran with "real" deadhang pullups is a touch over 6:00, but aiming to get that down to 5:00 in the next few months. I'd be curious to see how the hardcore CFers would fare if forced to all pullups deadhang. But that's moot, since CF condones kipping "to get the job done quickly"

FWIW, I use other people's times only as a rough baseline, but not always in a sense of competition, since my primary competition is my previous effort and/or my personal best--done in the style that I choose, based on my goals.

I was at the CrossFit cert in this weekend at CrossFit Alexandria... Top notch production from start to finish. Coach Glassman was, of course, inspiriing and Pat, Thomi, Andrew, Jon, and the gang were just awesome. Thanks to Rudy, Christy, and Casey, too, for hosting. Any chance of a week-long intensive course?

Sure.. I will be the first to admit that cartoon was a better explanation than any article in the WSJ, or better than Larry or Cramer could explain...

BUT.. what the cartoon left out was what really started this mess;

Political interest groups, lobbyists and ultimately weak populist(well intended) politicians in Washington enacted legislation that allowed banks to write these awful loans. They did it to be fair:) Actually, they did it to be elected, and to make more money for the banking industry.

#135, I agree 2:00 just considering the thrusters is impressive. Your comments are appreciated, I just wanted to throw it out there...at a certain point I believe sacrificing form to achieve superfast times is counter productive relative to range of motion, safety, etc.

#118 - Bingo, great synopsis

I also attended the Cert at CrossFit Alexandria.
Without a doubt, it was the best decision I have made in years!
If you have not attended a Cert yet - even if you do not plan to be a trainer or open your own affiliate - I highly suggest that you attend one at your earliest opportunity.
YOU WILL NOT REGRET IT!!!
I agree with Fox Nuts -- everyone was awesome, from Coach, to the trainers, to all of the participants.
Thank you Rudy, Christy and Casey - you guys were incredible to make that Cert happen on such short notice and pull it off so flawlessly.

2:05!!! that's just not fair. Great job.

Brian,

Agreed...I'm personally nursing a sore left shoulder from doing too many ring dips too quickly, plus a sore lower back from deadlifts for time. I remember reading something from Coach Greg a while back which said (paraphrased) that if your form doesn't suffer, you're not working hard enough and pushing your limits. I take that with a grain of salt, since the long-term health of my joints will always trump my shaving another 30-60 seconds off of Fran/Helen/Cindy :D

Anyone know what happen to Kegger. He used to be a staple with his results posted. Just Curious.

Great job Chris!

Its cool to know that I met everyone in that video!

Re: Suprime Mortages

Perhaps people will learn next time that the only reason prices go up over time is because of the Federal Reserve. Inflation is NOT a natural feature of markets. The lowered interest rates after 9/11 are what pumped up housing prices. This rate was lower than what would of occured in the market, leading to a text book Misien credit bubble.

Nuff' said.

#131 - Brian
#135 - Ash

I ask that you try thinking about this less in terms of like vs. dislike, and more in terms of efficiency of the movement. Remember that convention taught us that kipping was bad, too.

I agree that safety and range of motion are important factors that should not be undercut to achieve fast times, but I will argue that he (and the 'butterfly' kip)fails in neither of those areas.

Does his chin go above the bar? Then mission accomplished concerning ROM.

Is there any more stress put on his joints using this ‘butterfly’ variant of the kip? In fact, I’ll argue that there is less and that his movement is actually easier on the joints. In my opinion, this is due to the fluid circular motion as opposed to the back-and-forth of the CF conventional kip.

Any time you stop and reverse lateral motion, you are using energy. That’s basic Newton’s Laws of Motion stuff. The ‘butterfly’ variant of the kip used by guys like Speal and OPT reduces that lateral motion, read as ‘waste’, thereby resulting in a more efficient movement.

Brian and Ash,

If you're doing standard pullups on Fran, you're missing the point. Standard push ups are nowhere near as metabolically challenging as doing kipping pullups. Bascially you're resting. Taking it easy.

By the way, when I started crossfit about a year ago, I could do about 12 strict pullups (just like I've been able too for the last 4 years). Now I can do 22 strict. Kipping will make you better at standard.

#110

too funny!!

brian

there always seems to be one of you clueless members of the form police out there. maybe we'll hear from "the gift" today too.

Not to take anything away from Speal, but what about doing those snake like kips on a straight bar? Can you do it without bashing your chin?

speal- holy shizzle. amazing job.

spider chick- sorry to hear you are still not feeling well. hope you are resting a bit. take care of yourself girl.

I had a blast at the Alexandria cert this weekend! It is always a great learning experiance and awsome way to spend the weekend with some great people.
Thanks to CF Alexandria for making it happen last minute and Andrea, I will see you in a few weeks for some beach time YEAH :)

Speal: That performance makes me want to paraphrase Neil Armstrong when he landed on the Moon: "90 reps for man, one giant leap for mankind!"

Great work.

Burning Both Ends and reality check,

I appreciate your input. I have no doubt that properly-executed kipping is perfectly safe, and no doubt that they are more MetCon-oriented than strict pullups. I suppose it's just my diversion in philosophy--what little specificity I add to CF is to improve my bouldering, which relies on a lot of deliberate, isolated upper-body pulls from static positions. In that sense, traditional pullups serve my purpose a little better. I also sometimes do them on Rock Rings (screwed down, not hanging) for the same reason.

I can do deadhangs at a pace just slightly slower than the kipping/snaking in today's video, but it's hard to maintain strict up-and-down form when you're hurrying.

I just realized I look like a monchichi in the group pic today !!! ACCCCK!

Ash #151. I call B-S. Speal did the first set of 21 pullups in 18 seconds. Show me some video of you doing 21 deadhangs in "slightly longer". The "hard to maintain strict up-and-down" is part of the physical reality. Using that as an excuse is like saying I could jump higher but gravity really pulls me down.

Tony B.,

Would 20 deadhangs in 30 seconds be sufficient enough? I'm just estimating based on my pace here. I'll time in next time the WOD calls for pullups.

I cross my ankles and bend them back at the knee. This helps to keep my weight centralized (so the legs don't swing forward). Combined with decent core tension, it's not THAT hard to go fast on deadhangs.

Bingo,

Wow. Nice spin man. But this is what really happened. By the early 2000's all over the world, thank to NAFTA and other trade agreements, countries all over the world that used to be poor, were now making money over fist. And of course, they wanted to invest that money in a way that was safe and promised a high return. Who wouldn't? And at the time, the best way to do that was in the American mortgage market.

Before long Wall Street investment firms were selling bundled mortgages as fast as they could put them together. But then their was a problem. All the good mortgages had been sold. Ahh, but wait, there was light at the end of the tunnel — the deregulation of the derivative market. This allowed investment companies to buy up thousands of crap mortgages at a time and package them as if they were bonds by securing them with credit default swaps. Which in this case, were basically pseudo-insurance policies that carefully avoided the word "insurance" to avoid more regulation.

Because these transactions were not regulated, many of the banks who guaranteed these mortgages were able to over extend themselves without having to report that to investors. But they thought it was no big deal. As long as house prices kept going up, those who entered into these contracts assumed they'd never have to pay up. Even better, they bought complicated risk assessment software that told them the risk was low. Never mind that these risk assesments were based on the good mortgages they were guaranteeing a few years ago. (Which by the way proves once again that the best-designed antilogarithms pale in value to good of common sense).

These investment firms were making so much money they became willing to buy mortgages no matter how likely the chance they would default. So mortgage companies in their own self interest began to lower the standards more and more.

But they were being greedy. It was in their own self interest to make these loans. Oh, and by the way most of these crap mortagages were being made to the middle class. People who made $50K a year, but wanted to live like they made $250K, and were willing to self-report that was their income.

Banks could easily make profitable, affordable loans to low income households without having to resort to predatory lending practices. Allowing people to self-report income has nothing to do with anti redlining laws. To suggest so is a simplistic fabrication that distracts from the real issue.

I went to to see the Dallas Stars lose the RedWings last night. The marines had a booth set up with a pull up bar. If you get 3-5 pullups you get a sticker, up to 9 a magnet, up to 12 a water bottle and so on. If you can get more than 20 they'll give you a t-shirt. I took a turn and asked the guy if I could kip and he said sure. Turns out that was a pretty easy free t-shirt and I was easily the oldest guy trying by 20 years and I didn't see too many other t-shirts being given away.

Ken C, burning, reality-

I'm not interested in a debate. Go ahead and swing around on the bar like a fish if that's what you believe will produce the best results for yourself. I agree that some kipping (cheating) is good practice when used to power through more reps than one can achieve from a dead hang. I disagree that the form in the video is safer than a traditional pullup. It's like bouncing the bar off your chest in a bench press. Maybe you can do a lot of reps, but momentum (which you refer to as efficiency) is a significant component of the repetition, thereby reducing the actual work done by the muscles.

Great job Speal!! And the circular pull-ups are legit. I've noticed from the video's that OPT and Bret Marshall both do them... number 1&2 at last year's crossfit games.
I've learned them in the last month and discovered two things... they are more effecient and they get my lats extrememly sore! Shouldn't the litmus test for a legitimate pull ups be chin above the bar at the top and full extention at the bottom?! Those are both acheived with circular pull ups.
Tim

That video was more fun to watch than any posted in a long, long time. Total beast performance.

I agree that the metabolic challenge and energy efficiency of kipping and "butterfly" kipping are much greater. However when I first saw Fran it was standard kipping and the 2min 17 Fran was standard kip. So to change the technique and get a better time to me means that the workout has basically changed. It's like doing your max rep hang power clean using a full clean from the ground.

Is that to say then that it is impossible to lower the Fran time without the "butterfly" kip?

I thank God everyday I didn't get screwed buying my house.

When I bought my house in 2004, I was making maybe 25k and my wife about the same.

We bought a 117,000 house with NO down payment and essentially purchased it through a "middle man" mortgage broker.

thankfully it wasn't a subprime/ARM loan.

thankfully i could actually afford it.

thankfully i soon got a better job, too.

It's scary though, I was only 24 at the time. I thought buying something in the 70k-100k range was reasonable and I was convinced by the real estate agent and mortgage broker that I could afford more.

technically they were right and thankfully they didn't really screw me over, but man, I keep thinking would could have happened...

Ash, 30 seconds is 2/3 slower. I would say that's a pretty significant difference (even though 21 deadhangs in 30 seconds is fast!).

Crayze, there is a substantial workload difference between the hang power clean and full clean from the ground. It's not technique. In all these pullups, the work is the same (force x distance). How you get there is up to you.

Ken C

What do you have to say about what Brian said in comment #157, Ken?

Ash
Point taken.
In relation to your sport-specific training I acknowledge that strict PU are more similar to the movements you do. You man benefit from the kip, as doing kips can and will improve your deadhang.

Brian,

I AM looking for a debate. I want to see if the logic I'm using holds water, and one way to do that is to debate openly both sides.

I never said that this modified kip is safer than the dead-hang, but the kip is the preferred PU of CF. Am I wrong?

I'm not even saying that a modified 'butterfly' style kip is safer than the standard CF kip, but it MAY be.

I think it warrants further review by people smarter and more experienced than my self.

Patty
That's a risk you run. I think it can be done on a straight bar, but I also think that there's a reason why the fastest Fran vids we see are done with a split bar.

#103 andrewj

I'm not actually assuming that the US has debtor friendly bankruptcy laws. It does, in fact, have debtor friendly bankruptcy laws. There is a bit of assumption involved when I say that "investors" are certain that the government well step in when it all goes south... but how's that looking so far? At this point, it seems only a question of how much. McCain, Obama, and Clinton have all pitched proposals and Bear Stearns is already a done deal. The certainty that someone will step in a do something is pretty high. You don't think that was part of the calculation when lenders and brokers went down this path?

Spreading blame is hard because so many people were idiots. I agree with you about SPVs, that's basically lying. The problem might be regulated away but it wouldn't have been an issue (in this case) if any one in the chain of borrowers, brokers, or lenders who were involved first hadn't been so stupid. It takes an education to be that stupid. Any illiterate hillbilly who has ever visited a pool hall can tell you that shouldn't bet with money that you don't have.

#104, Cameron and #115, bingo made great points about how regulation contributed to this mess. And comment #142 points out the role of artificially low interest rates. Can you refute that? It looks like for every example of how intervention or regulation can fix this there are three of how they caused it. I don't think that more of the same is going to fix the problem in the long-run.

A completely free market is ruled by the law of the jungle, the jungle is completely infallible, it works perfectly... go back to my original post and read the first sentence. The only question is where we draw the line. If you draw it too far away from the jungle, you eventually get a visit from the Gods of the Copy Book Headings.
http://www.kipling.org.uk/poems_copybook.htm

31/m/190

Worked on breathing control today...

Breathing Ladder w/ protective mask 1-20, 22:03 then,

10 "get ups" each side @ 50# DB then,

100 Ball slams @ 30# ball

Ladder weight was 53# KB...

Congrats on the 2:05!!!

Someday...someday hopefully soon, I'll hit sub 4:00.

Tony B.

I think here is a difference in technique between the hang power clean and full clean which results in the substantial workload difference.

That being said all I was asking is what is the standard Fran. If it's just getting up and over the bar as quickly as possible then fine. If that's the case though then the man who drops his Fran time below 3 min doing deadhang pull ups will be a GOD.

1. speal does pullups faster than I do double unders
2. found out this morning during OH Squats about the importance of bumper plates--my buddy mike got stuck on his last set and let the 145# go from overhead onto the thin foam mats that we had under the weights--needless to say we need a new Oly bar...

going back this afternoon to do the 30 muscle ups for time--saving 'fran' for friday when we do 'hockey equipment fran'...

23m/66"/160

Played catch up today. Attempted mu for the first time. got 11 before I could no longer will my way up. Definitely room for improvement. Aiming for atleast 22 next time.

After countless failed mu attempts 50 pullups/50 dips and a set of 20 protective mask burpee pullups for good measure

The 'butterfly' pullups are exactly like the butterfly stroke, same point of attack (arms extended), same power generation from hip propolsion, except you'd want to stay flatter in the water. and, much like swimming, after the initial pull, it's about maintaining momentum throughout the stroke and realizing that at a certain point it become inefficient to keep working and instead get your hand back above your head.
however, butterfly, is actually more like a kipping muscle up in that it requires a strong pull, into a kick (kip) into a flick of the arms behind you (the dip).
so for those of you hoping to get pullups like that or to improve your muscle up speed, or even get your first one, try swimming butterfly

I love the cartoon if, for no other reason, than it reminds of one of my best friends. He draws these fantastically sarcastic cartoons, but the images are in complete contrast to the quality of the "words". He's not really a great artist, maybe slightly better than average, but the depth of his thought and humor is simply brilliant. So, I love these cartoons for that alone.

The arguments about "who started it" - too much government regulation in the first place or not enough government regulation in the second, seem almost impossible to sort out. I've had this debate with someone recently, although lightly as neither of us really has the econ background to substantiate what we're trying to say. I am uncertain whether to blame those yuppies who took balloon payment or ARM loans at 7 yrs in order to afford the payments on a house that was really above their means or the loan companies and banks that actually said "sure, right on, just sign here" or the investment companies as depicted in the cartoons. Or maybe I should just be mad at all of them - the whole industry that, like the internet bubble before it, ran amok on fake money and acted as if there would never come a day of reckoning, when everyone had to know from the start that when the end of the initial rate term came, there were going to be HUGE problems.

Oy.

On Speal - I watched that guy place 4th at the Games last year and someone there, maybe Freddie C., said "watch that guy next year". He's an animal. I just did a sub minute Fran yesterday. And he's 1/2 of my time at about 3/4 of my bodyweight. I think, however, that I'm going to bump up and start doing "Fat Fran's" from now on. While I hope to some day break 3 mins, I think I would benefit more form "scaling up" for now, rather than continuing to chase a WoD time of less than 3 minutes. I'd like to see what I can do with 115lb thrusters and 20 lb between my knees on the pullups. Less than 10 mins? I'm not sure, but I'll welcome thoughts.

I just wanted to take a minute to thank all the trainers that presented at the CERT in Union City this past weekend.
Training was great, the lectures were great (thanks Dave for the colorful and no bullshit approach...) and the Crossfitters attending were very supportive.
It was a great experience and I look forward to being part of the CrossFit movement.
If you are thinking about attending a CERT.... just do it! it's worth it!

I've been doing CF since February and LOVE IT...first time posting. I'm reading the Zone books and getting a scale today! Can anyone give me some good advice on sugar cravings???

Should it be assumed by the fact that the video is posted that these snake-man pullups, or whatever they are called, are acceptable? Not to take away from the overall (very high) level of fitness displayed, I am with Brian - the pullups seem not-so-impressive. Also, if you do those on a real chin-up bar you will be slamming your chin into the bar on every swing.

The Amundsen/Josh Everett "Fran" remains the staple... real pullups, real times.

Speal: Wow! I could barely believe my eyes. You are such an inspiration. Breaking the 2 min Fran actually seems possible.

Less cartoons then the discussion link, but still worth a look.

http://rushkoff.com/2008/05/03/riding-out-the-credit-collapse/

#54 "Rest day for time"
Thats hillarious. I'm too sore to laugh this hard.

Speal...dude, amazing.

Speal, that was the craziest thing I've seen all day. I'm going to try 'Fran' later today and you'll be the motivation. The best thing was you did it at a globo gym too. Simply awesome.

On Speal's Video:

Call them what you want... But They ARE KIPPING PULL UPS, which is what WE DO IN CROSSFIT. All this talk on them being "bad form" is just non-sense... Im pretty sure that "bad form" means doing something in an unsafe manor, and there is nothing unsafe about what he is doing. If your body won't move like that or is uncomfortable doing it then there is probably a more efficient form of the pull up for you.

Tommy A #175,
Of course they're acceptable. He's moving his body through a full range of motion. The work is the same and the time is reduced. This means his average power is higher, which both demands and develops greater fitness. Everything you want from fitness becomes better with sustained higher average power.

And, you're dead wrong about doing them on a real chin-up bar. Folks do that style on straight bars all the time (two or three workout vids coming soon will have them also). Just takes a little accuracy and skill to stay behind the bar.

Crayze #169, the difference is not in technique but in how far the bar travels and what path your body takes. A power clean from the ground moves the bar 2 feet further than a hang power clean regardless of what your form looks like.

Sick, Speal. That was awesome. Nice work!

For an added bitof jaw drop, check Chris' power output stats as compared to others...freaky impressive-(go to Perfomance Menu for the calculator if you don't have it already).

Everyone who keeps mentioning that the "OPT", "Snake", "Butterfly" pullups can't be done on a straight bar should watch the vids on the site from last year's CF Games. There are a few good clips of guys like OPT and AFT doing these same movements on a straight bar.

I'd agree that it's likely easier to do on a split bar, but they, and others, are more than capable of doing this movement without any damage to their faces.

Not sure, but I think OPT does uses this pullup in the sub 7:00 Helen vid as well.

Tony B - you beat me to it...

M/41/190/6'2"

Missed a day of WOD so used the Rest as a day to catch up. Made up my own:

21-15-9 dumbbell squat and chest press. 50# dumbbells. 6:07. Hard to stabilize the squats.
Caught my breath, then did Tabata squats, then Tabata pushups, then 25 GH situps on a 'converted' Smith Machine.

Forget the pullups, I'm amazed at how fast those thrusters are from such a little dude. Awesome Speal!

Does anyone have experience doing Fran with and without a medicine ball to compare times? I get the feeling that a small advantage is probably gained by the slight bounce at the bottom instead of the natural hamstring rebound (not to mention the muscle memory it takes to know when to come up).

This is discussed a little bit in the board, but any further thoughts on med ball vs non-med ball squatting would be appreciated.

Re: Speal & Fran

All I could see was soft non-lockouts in front of the ears on the thrusters and pull-ups done on a setup that doesn't require the chin to clear the bar with a lot of cervical hyperextension to shorten the movement even further.

Not to take anything away from the power output, but Greg Everett's PMenu article on how the exercises are "changing" in order to get faster times is a great read: http://performancemenu.com/shorties/index.php?show=shorty&shortyID=36

I believe "The Moves" CFJ article discusses the lockout position in thrusters, and the "Pull-ups" CFJ article discusses pull-up height standards. Craning the neck to barely clear the bar (or the lack of bar) is hard on the neck and doesn't contribute to "fitness" IMO.

Consistent standards are the mark of a quality organization, which is what I'm pushing for.

M/45/6'/175/7500'

Kip, lip or strip, it don't matter. Speal = STUD!
He may be the most FIT 135lb Man in the world. He consistently puts up "crazy" numbers and backs it when asked. He is inspiring to this older, slower and heavier fan. Kip up the good work Speal, you rock.

ENOUGH WHINING... Congrats Speal that was f'n awesome and inspiring.

brian

no need for a debate but as you can see that is what's going on here in many other posts. that's fine. there are reasonable claims on both sides of the kipping vs dead hang debate.

what you did is say that speal's pull ups were WEAK (your words). you thought about it, typed out the words and clicked send. that just makes you rude. we don't really do that here.

Garrett #188, your points are entirely eclipsed by the single most important component of fitness, which is increased work capacity across broad and modal domains. If you don't incorporate average power in your discussion of fitness, you've simply missed the point.

Measure Speal's range of motion on every thruster and every pullup, do the calculations, and you'll see that he is performing at an incredibly high output (ft-lbs/min). Can you show us a video of any of your athletes performing anywhere near that output with your "better" approach? Speal did not injure himself during this workout. In fact, he did a 2:14 Fran just a week earlier, and could probably do another one today.

Greg Everett, by the way, misses the point on technique. Good technique is only such in that it leads to more effective, efficient and safe production of work. Technique and intensity are not at odds. Good technique is the only way you'll ever maximize intensity and thus fitness. Quality of movement matters, of course, but only to the degree that it enhances performance. Reducing intensity to meet some "established" quality or characteristic is foolish. This isn't figure skating.

To clarify, if you're moving sandbags to build a levee in a flood or removing debris off an earthquake victim, does it matter if you don't open your hip all the way on every rep? Of course not. In Speal's case, yes, there were a few reps that weren't 100% complete, but they were 95%. The margin was tight enough that his performance was totally legit.

(Obviously, you could shorten the reps dramatically and change the work output and thus intensity and benefit, but Speal wasn't even close to that.)

DAVE #187--I've done squats with and without a low bench (not a ball). From my own experience, it's a little more strenuous to get all the way down to the bench, however there's a definite 'assist' from bottoming on the bench and stabilizing before coming back up. Maybe a ball is substantively different from a bench. And this is only my own experience.

i can't believe the online HQ WOD community is starting to get like this.

the 2:05 is sick. period. whether you love the guy's pullups or not is irrelevant --- and to hate on someone that's better than you is shows a very evident character flaw.

the uniqueness of the crossfit community is the support, competition and never-ending quest to get better.

personal agendas should be shelved

much respect speal. much respect

christian
http://run50miles.org

Reality check #155:

You know, there's not really much I can disagree with in your post. A quibble here and there, but for the most part you have the progression correct.

EXCEPT the start point. I guess I should have been more specific about the era I was referencing. The "red-lining scandal" was an issue in the late 1980's and early 1990's, splashed all over the front pages on rags like the NYT, USA Today, and my home town paper the Cleveland Plain Dealer. In fact the Cleveland City Council passed a law that banks that wished to do business with the city (a rather lucrative business apparently) were REQUIRED to write mortgages in ALL of the neighborhoods in Cleveland regardless of the known credit or default risk.

Now, banks had long since stopped holding the mortgages they wrote, and the mortgage broker industry was well-established. These guys just couldn't get these high risk loans off their hands fast enough, even though these 1995-vintage loans still had significant down payments, were more commonly fixed (albeit higher) rates, etc. In comes the investment banking community, the Bear Stearns and Greenwich Capitals of the world, to package these loans into interest bearing, tradeable entities that could be sold on the open market. These "sub-prime" mortgages did not conform to the loan standards which allowed Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to either insure or buy them, and so other entities needed to insure, and rate them, and the bundled loans carried higher interest returns to "make-up" for this risk. All of this occurred in the early 1990's--it's really old news.

What is important to recall, as it is important to acknowledge that essentially all of the rest of your post is valid, is that it was the action of government in response to the 'red-lining scandal" that opened the door to the entire mess.

A couple of quibbles: Banks may or may not be able to write profitable loans to low income households--that category is not monolithic, is infact quite heterogenous, and defies such a broad categorization and statement. All sub-prime loans are not part and parcel indicative of predatory practices. A measurable % of sub-prime loans in default are the result of "predatory borrowing." And lastly, I never said or implied that allowing people to self-report income was in any way related to red-lining, only that the entire market derived from government action to thwart red-lining.

Hope that's more clear. For the record, I don't "spin". Man.

WOW - SPEAL IS A CYBORG!

"The Subprime Primer" - TOO FUNNY! LOL!

Eh! - I like the fact that the accountant was included. Love CrossFit!!

Holy High Bars batman! This topic is ALMOST as popular as "boobies", but much more fun....

Hey, off topic and maybe for the Message board, but not much time here. I've seen posts about hitting strength programs in place of CFIT, 6 weeks ish I believe? Anyone have any info where to find or put one together? Feeling burnt out from 18 months or so of CFit and seem to be sliding off on the WODS. Thanks.

that"s pretty impressive. Can he beat 2:05? Set up the workout more efficiently and I say he/someone can. Face the pullup bar when doing thrusters, and do them as close to the PU bar as safe as possible..that would slice a few seconds off just moving from point A to point B. Thats the kind of tricks you need to do when your time is reaching an absolute.

I would really like to see, however, a deadweight pullup Fran. I haven't been convinced of the benefits or legitimacy of kipping yet.

#175 Tommy A. and all others dissing the eliptical style pullups. We have multiple people at crossfit Vancouver who use this style now, including our best performer and there is nothing easy about it. It is harder on grip and stamina than the standard pull-up and the power output is much greater. We only use a straight bar and nobody has a problem with hitting their face on it. It take a very strong, highly trained athlete to pull these off and that is how it should be treated when you see these on video. The standard crossfit kip is not the best movement anymore and all elite crossfitters are switching to this style of pullups. I think we will really see evidence of that at the games.

So much respect to Speal for that time. What a legend..

The Pie, Crossfit Vancouver

That is just plain rediculous to see a 2:05 Fran. I thought I had a chance on getting close to AfT but now I'm another 20 seconds farther away. Just frusterating. Great job by speal. On another note the Subprime post is one of the best and funniest descriptions I've seen describing the economic mess we've entered.

Speal has set the standard... Bottom line. Regardless if Dr. Garrett agrees or not, or anyone else outside of HQ confirmations, they have not spent enough time to understand how the lines blur between technique and intensity. You will never have a perfect Fran, Diane, Grace, 100m run, or whatever, perfection is the goal and never the end result! We are human... Of course I am not a Doctor though.

I would have posted my time today but I don't know it exactly. Today I learned the importance of having somebody else timing you rather than trying to start/stop your time on your own. Thought I started the watch on a Fran workout- turns out I got too excited and quickly hit the button, so it never really started. I'll be waiting for next time. Great video. In my opinion, the objective of a pull up is to get your chin equal with or above the bar, he (Speal) accomplished the feat and that cannot be debated. Although a different style than many are used to, it accomplished the given task, and his squat thrusters were perfect. Awesome job!

Guys, maybe a dumb question but I'm a newbie to this thing...why wouldn't you wear some sort of hand protection (like gloves) while working out? I know that blisters and calluses are a bade of honor, but it seems that you need to give your hands a break every now and then...I'm probably missing something here...

M/48/150

Rested ystd. Did a version of most recent Painstorm:
AMRAP 30 min.
100M Run
10 HPClean with lunge R/lunge L (did not do clean)
10 PU

9 + 20 lunges (finished round 10 at 30:21)

Tony B. : Dude, why no love for figure skating? Didn't you see Krisit Yamaguchi on 'Dancing with the Stars?' Come on...broad-based dancing across multiple styles and rhythms? And how about triple jumps? Can't we say that there's a different power output in a triple Lutz vs. a triple toe loop?

And seriously...can you say Tonya Harding? Huh? I mean, really, combining boxing, weaponry, AND figure skating. She's an MMA visionary!

I just don't understand it, all the hate directed at figure skating...

;=)

27/235/78"

Got a Fran PR today. 4:35
Then I met Pukie for the first time!

I think that Dr. Garrett Smith raises some valid points that do not take anything away from Chris Spealler's awesome performance. Speal is definitely one of the most legit, hard working, and honest athletes that I have ever seen. He sets the standard as far as I am concerned.

However, I am confused now about how to perform a proper thruster or push press. Am I wrong to insist for myself and my clients that we achieve a fully locked out, fully extended position at the top of a thruster or a press? I understand the concept of getting the work done, but I want to know what I should be striving for. Is there a standard to which I should hold myself and my clients? Aside from safe mechanincs, is there a standard for work output? I thought it was full range of motion, but now I am a little unclear on how to define it, or what the acceptable range is. I mean Speal's work output is incredibly high, but for a more average athlete like myself, what is acceptable? Since I have fairly long arms, can I be short on my ROM? I guess in the end, I need to be consistent with myself, but I would like to better understand the standards. Thanks.

2:05 is downright sick! Even sicker is how easy you make it look.

Nice work.

Back on saturday when we did fran. the Rx'd workout is "3 rounds, 21,15 and 9 reps of 95lb thrusters and pull ups. I'm wondering if Im doing these workouts wrong.

My interperetation:

21 thrusters
21 pull ups
15 thrusters
15 pull ups
9 thrusters
9 pull ups

are we supposed to do that for 3 rounds??? or is this all we do and when we change the number of reps thats considered a round.

insight??

Thanks all.

I have a question

Back on Saturday when we did Fran. the description is:

Three rounds, 21-15- and 9 reps, for time of:
95 pound Thruster
Pull-ups

is the first round 21 thrusters and 21 pull ups, and the second round 15 thrusters and 15 pull ups etc... or are we supposed to do 12-15-9 of thrusters and pull ups as one round and do it all over again for the second and third round?

thanks for the insight!

happy crossfitting

I have a question

Back on Saturday when we did Fran. the description is:

Three rounds, 21-15- and 9 reps, for time of:
95 pound Thruster
Pull-ups

is the first round 21 thrusters and 21 pull ups, and the second round 15 thrusters and 15 pull ups etc... or are we supposed to do 12-15-9 of thrusters and pull ups as one round and do it all over again for the second and third round?

thanks for the insight!

happy crossfitting

you should do 1 round
21 thrusters
21 pull ups
15 thrusters
15 pull ups
9 thrusters
9 pull ups

I have a question

Back on Saturday when we did Fran. the description is:

Three rounds, 21-15- and 9 reps, for time of:
95 pound Thruster
Pull-ups

is the first round 21 thrusters and 21 pull ups, and the second round 15 thrusters and 15 pull ups etc... or are we supposed to do 12-15-9 of thrusters and pull ups as one round and do it all over again for the second and third round?

thanks for the insight!

happy crossfitting

I have a question

Back on Saturday when we did Fran. the description is:

Three rounds, 21-15- and 9 reps, for time of:
95 pound Thruster
Pull-ups

is the first round 21 thrusters and 21 pull ups, and the second round 15 thrusters and 15 pull ups etc... or are we supposed to do 12-15-9 of thrusters and pull ups as one round and do it all over again for the second and third round?

thanks for the insight!

happy crossfitting

****Alexandria Cert****

Congrats to all the new Level 1's! You guys were fun from start to finish & asked a lot of great questions.

Thanks once again to our hosts. You all jumped through your butt to get us a suitable location for the cert....and you pulled it off!

Fianlly, to my trainers; you guys are the best. Thanks for making my job easy and for doing a great job teaching CF this past weekend.

****Speal****

I was just about to send in my tape of me doing Fran in 2:07. Ha ha ha.....yeah right! Amazing work, Chris. I hope you box is working out well for you, bro.

Bingo,

I may have overreacted a bit with the "spin" comment. My apologies. I honestly didn't understand your point earlier. And I very much agree with the "predatory borrowing" comment. I guess the redlining just hit a nerve. Here's why —

I agree that low income households are heterogeneous, and you can't profit from loans to all of them. However, when people bring up red-lining laws, it scares me because of how difficult it can be to get of poverty with no means of borrowing money at a reasonable interest rate.

Now, clearly many of the poor in this country are so because of cultural issues that are both endemic and destructive, like gangs, drugs, lack of family structure, etc. However, I believe it would benefit all of us, if those poor who are trying to take care of themselves and their families (and there's a lot of them) had access to loans with which to start a small business or own a home, etc.

I'm not talking about handouts, which strip the poor of their dignity. I'm talking about loans that they have to pay back, but can afford, too. Unfortunately, in the race to maximize profits, most banks and other lending institutions offer little more than credit cards and check cashing services to low income families. The latter of which offer loans to desperate people at interest rates that if stretched out to a year, would be in the range of 300-400% APR.

When you consider the costs on society of a large poor subculture in such things nas law enforcement, government housing, lost productivity, etc., I think it could be beneficial to all of us to encourage banks to make such loans.

I'm not naive enough to think this would solve the problems, but I think it could help kick start cultural changes that may lead more and more people into the middle class. And the more people in the middle class, the more money there is to go around for all of us.

Finally, A rest day article I can understand...

Have Fun, Train Hard,

Billy

I've been fighting my inner nerd after seeing Speals Fran video, but I have to reply to this comment:

> Brian: Maybe you can do a lot of reps, but momentum (which you refer to as efficiency) is a significant component of the repetition, thereby reducing the actual work done by the muscles.

From a simple physics perspective, Work Done in the case of a pull up is the change in Potential Energy from the bottom to the top of the pull up, which is equal to mgh (Mass x Gravity x Height).

You will note the absence of any horizontal component. It's all about moving a mass, against gravity, from one height to another. Whether you Dead Hang, Kip or Butterfly Kip, the "Work Done" is identical. The difference is of course the time, which gives you a Power rating which is akin to Intensity, which is what Crossfit is all about.

On that basis (I assume here that the Butterfly Kip is "safe", I will let my betters argue that case) then an exercise that does the same amount of work with more intensity fits exactly with one of the defining tenets of Crossfit. I think.

All I can say is: God help my chin!

P.S. Awesome Fran Speal. Loved the comedy guy in the background doing machine assisted dips too.

Is is possible energy is being stored and released in the connective tissue (ligaments and tendons) in the pull-ups which drop to the bottom and appear to rebound? That is, some energy is being conserved by the "bounce" and not produced by the muscles? Perhaps the only way to sort out the various styles power output is to measure the oxygen consumption of the athlete in a lab environment.

Dr. G - those pullups are easily done on the regular bar with chin coming way above the bar.

I can video tape that for you if you want and even with my wingspan it's easily done.

I think people should remember that for the sub 3:00 crowd (Can we even call it a crowd? I wouldn't know, I'm not a part of it.) a timed Fran isn't a workout. It's a race, a competition, a performance. These people have moved beyond the level of fitness where doing an Rx'd Fran is getting them stronger. That would be like saying a sprinter is "training" or "improving his work capacity" when he runs an 800m at a track meet.

The benefits or drawbacks of various pull-up techniques are therefore irrelevant. The benefits of locking out strictly overhead (see the P Menu article) are irrelevant. You're moving (body)weight from point A to point B (and back, and forth, 90 times). With a stopwatch.

The only things that should matter are: squat depth and barbell height overhead for the thruster; full hang and chin above bar height for the pull-up. Anything else falls under the category of "points for style". Of course, you have style points (or at least strict rules) in figure skating, but also gymnastics, weightlifting, ski jumping, and so on, so it's a perfectly respectable practice. I just don't think it is reasonable approach for CF.

Comment #193 - Posted by: Tony B. writes:

“Garrett #188, your points are entirely eclipsed by the single most important component of fitness, which is increased work capacity across broad and modal domains. If you don't incorporate average power in your discussion of fitness, you've simply missed the point.”

As Dr Garrett has pointed out Greg Everett's Performance Menu article is a great read: http://performancemenu.com/shorties/index.php?show=shorty&shortyID=36

A quote from the article that speaks to the point above:

“One of the recent changes in CrossFit theory has been the increasing emphasis on work capacity as the measure of fitness, often to the point of occasionally obscuring other important details. The detail most commonly neglected in the pursuit of power and work capacity is, of course, movement technique.”

Not to say that Tony B. obscures other details, but let’s not throw out technique (or any other original fitness component for that matter) out the window solely in pursuit of better times (e.g. increased work capacity).

With respect to thrusters Tony, I think that bringing the thruster to full overhead extension with full scapular retraction would not have any significant impact on the time of completion and thus power output. However, training absent the full technique (throwing the thruster forward without full ROM and scapular retraction) does have considerable consequences in terms of strength, flexibility, and coordination as Everett alludes to. That’s unacceptable to me and most of us. You too I assume?

In the end, I think I tend to agree with the following point from Coach Everett: “The objective of CrossFit is entirely specific to its application—a wrestler, rock climber, fitness generalist, obese grandmother and a CrossFit athlete each have unique demands, expectations and goals, and these are what drive the implementation and consequently the standards of performance. The critical point here is that CrossFit must be evaluated within its given context.”

Thanks-

David

PS - Speal, that was amazing. I have been struggling to get a sub 5 Fran for over a year now, and this gives me hope.

Thank you David @ CF Chatt for your response. It helps make a few points more clear to me regarding the ROM question. I wouldn't mind if others chimed in on this as well.

Hey Vancouver,

Is there anyway you guys could make a video explaining the mechanics of the elliptical-style pullup. That would be awesome. In reciprocation we could even start calling it the Vancouver pullup, or Canuck-ups or something.

Ryan #208, Go back to the video and watch it frame by frame. Count how many reps Speal doesn't get full extension. I saw 1, maybe 2. Where is the confusion? The task at hand is high rep. He didn't pause at the top in the locked out position because it's a race. But he does get there momentarily.

The goal of CrossFit is a broad, general, inclusive fitness. We're looking for capacity in life, both inside and outside the gym. If you never train fully locked out with a load stabilized overhead, you are limiting your capacity. But just because he doesn't pause locked out during Fran doesn't mean the rep was incomplete. Watch him in the Bodyweight OHS / Weighted Pullup video with Dutch. Speal knows overhead stability.

One must understand the true meaning of a “Sub-PRIME” loan…

A loan is considered a Sub-Prime loan when the variables to underwrite it (Go through the borrower mandates to meet prior to funding) are less than perfectly favorable to the lender.
Lenders set the minimum standard to be met in terms of borrower requirements (AKA: FICO) property requirements; ratio to value (Appraisals) and terms…Length of loan, interest rate, and overall terms of funding prior to lending money, generally garnished from a pool of funding resources from institutional lenders like banks, insurance companies, retirement funds, and the like…

The investor pool money managers are the ones who set the terms of lending. When the Real Estate market is hot and prices keep going up there is usually somebody waiting to purchase when made available. This phenomenon is what causes prices to become artificially inflated and soon becomes speculation. The investor pool money managers know if the properties continue to move, they will get their investments back plus a healthy return in short time.

Sub-Prime borrowers pay a premium to get the loans. The loans are priced higher in terms of rates and costs to get the funding. Usually these folks have a significant lesser FICO scores or have credit issues prior to applying for the purchase and borrowing of funds. The lenders are aware of these issues and agree to fund these purchases with elevated fees and rates justified by the loans being “quote” “SUB-PRIME”.

These borrowers know what they are doing, being willing to pay the premium to be “IN THE GAME” of home ownership. The lenders are basically gouging these folks knowing the deal in advance. For either side to claim they are not aware of the deal in advance is BS. Not much different than someone pointing a loaded weapon at someone and then claiming hey, I didn’t know it was loaded?

I believe the reason for the FED’s being so willing to come to the rescue in our current state of the union is due to this fiasco being bigger than they want to acknowledge. It is based upon profiteering by institutional lenders and blame being placed upon the average borrower as if there was some conspiracy by all of these folks together in borrowing at inflated rates and terms to get their piece of the American dream of home ownership.

Why else would the IRS & FEDS take action to forgive these borrowers from their debts when being foreclosed upon by the lenders who originally gave them the loans, or the lenders who purchased these types of loans at reduced rates from face value (Loans packaged in large groups then sold together for a grand total for discount) These type of actions don’t occur in a vacuum, there is culpability by the profiteering institutional lenders.

I am not speaking of the neighborhood mortgage broker here, they are simply a middle man providing a product somewhere in the middle of the borrower with needs and the lender with the requirements…It is the Lender who sets the stage…Not entirely different from the grocer stocking the shelves waiting for the customer to come by and purchase the product. Or perhaps a better analogy, a spider casting a web waiting for some unsuspecting thing (Sub-Prime borrower) to come by and get ensnarled.

Problem is: the markets change and people get caught with their hands in the cookie jar! Then it seems is the time to blame everyone else for your own actions.

reality check #217 (obvious that it's not too busy at Skyvision today, eh?!):

Apology accepted with a smile. I only rarely engage in substantive Rest Day discourse; I usually have some smart a$$ thing like my Tony B. teasing. But when I do engage I take great care to add value to the discussion, and I take great care to write accurately and well.

Your points about red-lining in general and about the benefits of giving a "lift" to those who are impovershed and simply need a boost in order to lift themselves out of poverty are understandable and noble; for the purposes of this particular topic they just don't apply. As you accurately pointed out it is generally not the citizens of impovershed areas who are under water, behind on their payments, or walking from their loan. No, in the areas that were typically red-lined the houses that are being foreclosed are typically those purchased by speculators or scam artists, with or without the help of nefarious mortgage originators. Your consituency is typically not at risk because they are typically still not getting loans, a situation that is troublesome, but a discussion for another day.

Ewen gets it right. Garrett might be right if the purpose of Fran (or this Fran) was to practice thrusters, but it wasn't. It was to go fast. When a sprinter practices starts, he strives for perfect form. When race day comes, he strives for the fastest time.

There is difference between TECHNIQUE and RULES.

The rule is move the weight. This is the rule because the goal is work capacity/power and that is determined by moving the weight. Not a scalpular retraction. In a sprint the rule is cross the finish line first ... because we are measuring speed.

It's like you're critiquing Michael Johnson after broke the 200m world record because he looks funny when he runs.

Speal...you're officially on my list of people I "hate"

...hate = really, really envy

good work, man

Thank you Tony B. for your explanation. My laptop's video quality is honestly not good enough to view frame by frame, but I don't need to analyze Speal's performance to know that he is 100% legit. I have seen him workout in person and he personifies all the best things about Crossfit. My confusion is more for an average performance athlete such as myself and my clients. I feel that there is a difference when I do a thruster to full overhead extension with full scapular retraction versus one that is more in front of my body. I would think that a 1 rep thruster should be of the same quality as a 21 rep thruster (all things being equal). I just want to be sure that I am striving for the right form with respect for range of motion. Thanks for taking time to respond to my comment.

BTW, I had a conversation with you in which you pointed out that Josh Everett's Fran had a higher power output that AFT's even though it was a little slower due to Josh Everett's bigger size. How does Speal's power output at 2:05 compare to OPT's 2:17?

Thanks

-Ryan

Surfer Jenn # 86: HA! That's too funny! I can't believe you were too shy to talk to ME. I'm really friendly so you better say hello next time you spot me or I'm going to start asking around to find out who you are :)

Congrats on your Fran..

24/m/165

Had a day off from work and i couldn't make myself rest so i did a little circuit.

30-20-10 reps of:
75# SDHP
24" box jumps
Sit ups
Back extensions
75# Push press
20# Wall balls

15:15
Partner (23/m/165) 14:48

I gotta do the 30 MUs later today...time to rest!

42yom / 148

Strength day today for me did Back Squats 3,3,3,3,3

185, 205, 215, 225, 235(PR)

The one thing that hasn't been mentioned here is the primary reason for the Fed's intervention and assistance in the buyout of Bear Stearns.

The whole collapse of the sub-prime market had very little to do with foreclosures and defaults of the sub-prime loans. Instead, it had to do with the process that supported them.

The mono-line insures sold there AAA ratings to the brokerage houses which packaged the deals and peddled them to the investor. Mono-lines have been doing this for years. The amount of money they have available to them was sufficient to indemnify the investors of the few packaged loans that would have defaulted.

However, when it became apparent to the "Street" that the Mono-lines would come under pressure they drove the price of their stock down making them worthless. This then caused a panic in the CDO market which resulted in their inability to mark to market the investments.

When there wasn't a market for the paper, regardless of its quality, the brokerage houses became under collateralized. This forced the brokerage houses to go to the banks for further collateralization. The banks refused and this forced the price of the investments down further.

The result was the imminent failure of Bear Stearns who held a large position in the financial instruments in question. The Fed intervened to put a floor on the investments. Any further irrational degradation of the investments would have jeopardized the whole financial world. The results would have been far flung and the results would have affected everyone.

What I think you will find is that by putting a floor on the price of these investments, by arranging the buyout of Bear Stearns, the Fed has allowed sufficient breathing room for other financial institutions to restructure themselves.

I think that in a very short period of time you will find that the vultures who came in and scooped up the paper at ridiculous levels are making a killing.

Someone earlier said that in a true free market there is no inflation. I could hardly disagree more. You will always have inflation in goods that are in demand. If you don't you aren't buying from a true capitalist. It's that increase in price driven by the increase in demand that brings about the increased competition.

Speal awesome, I can't wait until I can do squats again. I'm up to 125 degrees range of motion. I think in another month they will let me use weight. Unfortunately, on the advice of a few people on the discussion board, I have taken this time to rest and rehab my shoulders. I've decided that surgery sucks.

To all the Alexandria Level 1Cert. Particapants- You guys rocked!!! Your spirit and drive were through the roof and made it an awesome weekend. Pat-You are a top notch leader and trainer and manage to make everything fun while teaching and running the show. Andrew, Jon, Thomi, Steve, Jerry, Dale, Dave and Jon A.-I thoroughly enjoyed working with and learning from each and every one of you. Christy , Rudy and Casey-You guys were fantastic hosts and have built an awesome community at your affiliate. Thomi-can't wait to go to the beach with you and get crushed by you in a workout!

Speal-
It's been said a 101x, but you can't watch a performance like that and not want to congratulate the individual on an awesome effort. Keep pushing yourself, I see a sub 2min Fran in your future. NO DOUBT.

After a few months of work I am finally comfortable with the timing and coordination on normal kipping pullups. Did 31 of them cold this morning on the schoolyard after dropping off my daughter. Strict form has me stopping after 20 or so. The kips aren't less work overall. They use more overall power and are more of a metabolic driver, but they spread the load to include the abs and hip flexors, thus letting my biceps and lats last longer.

Now Speal raises the bar (so to speak) with this elliptical/snakeman/butterfly thing. Don't know who started it, Canucks, Speal or others, but it is a new kind of getting from point A to point B. More coordination, more conservation of momentum, more efficiency. Different like the Fosbury Flop was different. Some will hate it, others will embrace it. All should realize that when counting for time we need to specify how it was done in order to understand the context within which to judge the performance.

Knowing that Speal is about as equally endowed with height as he is with bodyfat makes me wonder whether a taller person's more stately rate of pendular motion will make a measurable difference in their ultimate potential speed with butterfly pullups. Like to see some videos of taller folks using the same technique. I'm only 5´10" so I'm hoping that the trouble that I had with my initial attempts is just to do lack of coordination and timing.

FREE!!

In my best infomercial voice:

Here is your limited time offer for free credit counseling to keep you out of debt and on your way to a prosperous future!

Stop Spending Money You Don't Have On Things That You Don't Need and Can't Afford You Morons!!!!!

See- That didn't take a Billion dollars worth of state sponsored "counseling" programs that wackos like Obama and Hilary are proposing.

Jim D #235 explains the very complex "end-user" part of the sub-prime story quite well. He is particularly accurate and honest in terming the Fed's activity re: Bear Stearns as "arranging the buy-out," not calling it a bail-out which it certainly was not. Bear Stearns is dead. A company worth $171/share 18 months ago was sold for $10/share. Thousands and thousands of people will lose their jobs; most of them will lose jobs with an income under $100K. Weep not for the "Masters of the Universe" who have lost 10's of millions of $$, perhaps, but a bail-out does not involve >10,000 jobs lost and the essential descruction of a company.

So, who shall we save? Who "deserves" a bail-out. Perhaps we should visit the soveriegn state of "Victimistan" where we can discuss this using victimese? Let's work backward, shall we, using Jim's end-users as the beginning of our journey.

Should we save the banks, investment banks, hedge funds, pension funds, municipalities, etc who bought or held these financial instruments? Are these sophisticated investors somehow victims of fraud, deserving of a government bail-out? Hardly. They are victims only of their own greed and their lack of due diligence. They are victims of their own incompetence. With risk you sometimes lose.

What of Bear Stearns? Sorry. One more player toppled by hubris, too long at the well, unwilling to see the end of the trough. While I DO feel for the average worker at Bear, the secretary, clerk, lower level sales guy, all of whom will make up the majority of the displaced, there is no vehicle or precendent for replacing their lost jobs, err we would have done so for the steel workers bludgeoned by other economic tsunamai's.

How about the middle guys, the big banks and the regional banks forced to write down huge losses and scramble for capital. Should we bail them out? Allow relaxed capital requirements and accounting standards? Are you kidding? Bad business again, and the rightful bearers of the brunt of this are, and should be, the shareholders and executives. It will be infuriating when these chucklehead in the boardrooms get bonuses after such egregious losses.

How about the mortgage originators, the mortgage brokers and the local banks? By and large they've already been paid, and their risk is low. The greatest risk they have is that no one is buying houses and therefor they have no revenue. This might, MIGHT, be the only place where more regulatory involvement would be helpful. Much, much more transparency in the transaction and much, much more "normal English" in the documents is an absolute necessity.

And lastly what of the people "losing" their homes? Those who are "under water" and turning in their keys. Well, I think this group is rather heterogenous. The person who bought a house for 6,7,8 9, or 10 X what they make in a year and then couldn't afford the payments when the ARM adjusted? Sorry, your luxury "rental" was just pulled. Time for a little fiscal reality. Have a chat with your parents and grandparents about what constitutes an affordable house.

The person who "bought" a house with 1-3% down and used an ARM and now can't afford the payments on "their" house? Sorry...it's not, and never was, YOUR house. You only have 1-3% in the game. Prices DON'T always go up. Have that chat with your elders, find an nice rental, and save up a 20% down-payment on a house you can afford.

The real victims, and IMO the ONLY victims, are these two groups: those people who played by the rules and really didn't understand the payments and the rules of Adjustable Rate Mortgages, who put money down and can't re-fi because you can't get ANY re-fi in this market. They got screwed and they should get bailed out. And the people who were struggling, making their payments, and had a set-back, an illness or job loss or death, etc. Now they need a re-fi or some forebearance and they can't get it. These people typically have some equity skin in the game. They are victims, and they should get a bail-out, whether they have a sub-prime or prime mortgage.

But that's not what we hear from our elected officials, is it? No, they're ALL victims, and they ALL deserve a bail-out.

Terrifying.

The law of unintended consequences is simply a correlary of TANSTAAFL.

If power output and work capacity have become the endorsed (IMO, myopic) be-all and end-all view of fitness by HQ, maybe I'm in the wrong place. I believe that isn't the case, that's why I'm here.

Maybe I take the CFJ articles a bit too seriously, especially the "Virtuosity" one. You know, doing the common uncommonly well (that would include, or require, proper technique). Virtuosity in a thruster would be finishing each rep elbows in line with or behind the ears, elbows fully locked (not pausing necessarily). Um, just like I was taught at my Level I cert so long ago.

There is a definite "pop" in the movement that can be seen, however short-lived, when a thruster is locked out (I specifically mean the elbows) overhead. Very few, if any reps, in that incredible display of work capacity, had full lockout. None were in line with or behind the ears (thanks for the multiple camera angles).

Are press-outs allowed in OL? Should PL squats be allowed to only go as shallow as needed so gargantuan weights can be put up? Half push-ups in burpees? I bet air squats without full depth and lacking full hip extension at the top would really increase their output! Is this what we're after? I hope not. This is a slippery slope to go down.

There will likely be huge issues with the "interpretation" of complete reps at future CF competitions if a true standard is not realized--not "close enough" or "good enough". If CF desires to be a legit sport among the other accepted sports, there will need to be hard and fast rules, especially when the word "record" is being thrown around. As of right now, I would say that there is not a hard and fast rule constituting what a truly proper thruster is in the elite CF world. There is "close enough".

OL and gymnastics, major foundations of CF, have very specific parameters for the validity of techniques and "complete reps". Why should we be any different?

BTW, if a 95% thruster is "close enough", then when people start doing 90% and saying that is legit, you'll know why I'm being stubborn on this point.

Leo, I don't doubt that particular style of pull-up is capable of producing enough power to get the chin over the bar. It's whether or not the chin was above the bar, which is easiest to judge when a straight bar is used. I'm not against any form of pull-up, I'm all for a set standard (note the full pull-up standard in the CFJ article on them is *chest tightly pressed to the bar*, not chin barely above or "equal to" bar level).

Or maybe like bodybuilding, which has "juiced" and "supposedly not juiced" divisions, there could be a "strict" version and a "no holds barred for the sake of increased power output and work capacity" version of CF benchmark workouts.

The challenge for me to bring athletes to match/beat the work capacity demonstrated is sidestepping the point I brought up.

I love the things I've been introduced to through CF, and when I do something, I do my best to stick to the philosophy. Personally, the "virtuosity" idea rings true to me the most. That's what I'm after, in combination with longevity of performance. I know that not everyone is after the same thing, which is likely the root of this entire debate.

Is there anyone out there that can do the butterfly pullup proficiently and does not think it is beneficial? Or is this just an internet debate?

Did the 50 burpees from a while back cause I'm in a hotel and had to do something. 4:23....a lot harder than I expected.

ewen-

Great comment. Fran is the perfect weight and rep scheme that you can throw yourself at it with such intensity that it leaves you wrecked for a whole day. For me it is not a workout at all. It is a battle against myself. I don't hate it so much for the workload. Hell, I don't even sweat anymore when I am doing it. Instead, I hate fran more than any other workout because it is such a huge mental drain for me to start and even a bigger battle to finish. The mental battle is not just to complete the work, but to conscientiously (sp?) keep the reps as legit as possible.

I think there are a bunch of crossfitters out there that are capable of a legit sub- three fran, but they just can't mentally stick to it. To sub three you have to go to a horrible dark ugly place, and it's no fun to be there.

About thrusters and pull-ups: I don't think missing a full lockout overhead on a few reps is bad. I just can't stand the fast fran's that I see that start and finish that way. For people that argue not locking out overhead is still overhead, then push that bar back a couple more inches. It's harder! I am not a fan of the rotational pull-up, but that is probably because I am not athletically gifted or strong enough to perform them well. For everyone that doesn't think they are legit, try it. They are not easy!

Next time there is a speal video, I will have to share my "Speal Crossfit Games Story." with everyone.

SPEAL~how much do you weight??? oh no i am just kidding i already know!!! 134-5-6ish.....
YOU and your BODY HAVE ABSORBED the CONCEPT of CROSSFIT TRAINING...LOVE IT, NEED TO CATCH IT, BE PROUD.....

#206 Bingo - haha, that was good!

Butterfly pullups - there was a video several months ago showing kipping pushups. I posted in the comments that the movement looked very similar to the butterfly stroke and that it might be something of interest to swimmers. I said it looked like a good wokout 'tool' to learn. I got jumped by people all over the place for saying those things. People were mad because I thought that the 'corrupted' pushup might be useful. It amazed me how hateful and rude the comments and emails were.

It looks like the same thing starting again, but maybe not quite as large of an outcry, and to someone else. One person did agree with me about the kipping pushup - he of course was a swimmer and competed in the butterfly! How ironic, huh??

To those of you whom the butterfly pullup seems like something of use to swimmers - I agree. I think you should give it a try and see what happens.

Also, Tony B. knows his stuff. I mean, read his posts! Every time he posts something it is well thought out and informative.

For those of you whom the kipping pullup is not a 'true' pullup: why do you work so hard to make it only an up and down motion? (i.e. folding your legs up and crossing your feet, going slower, fighting the swing.)

The momentum in the kipping pullup is created, using energy. It isn't a magical force that just occurs to make the pull up easier. Instead of fighting the natural rotation around the bar, the athlete doing a kipping pullup is making an efficient use of expended energy; not expending more energy to counteract the motion!

Is speal faster than the OPT guy?

FREDDY C. You are completemly right!!! the muscle and cardio recovery is what people do not realize at first( I DID NOT,I was forced to do more quicker(PULLUPS, thrusters) which aparenenty i did not know, but could do a lot more). you are able to do pullups immediately after Thrusters and so on as soon as you break that mental barrier of thinking your body muscles and mind are not capable of more output yet.... If you have been CROSSFITTING for a little while your muscles should be reccovered and ready for plenty more/// YOuR THE MAN GO 1 WORLD

#244 Freddy - Do you really not sweat when you do Fran?

Can't wait for Wednesday's WOD.

Shut up and CF!

Impressive but... the standard for the Thruster is full lockout at the top (active shoulder and elbow to the ears) and the standard for Pullup is chin over the bar. (Source me on the Demo page) I don't see that the standard is met. Should it count ?

Mark,

Not until after, and even then not a whole lot. Nothing like the drench fests that occur during The Filthy Fifty or Murph. I have puked my guts out the last two Fran's.

Great picture on today's post to play the "Where's Castro" game. Well framed Dave.

Well said 246

Many thanks to the training team at the Alexandria Cert, Pat Sherwood, Andrew Thompson, Jon Gilson et al. My expectations were exceeded and they were pretty high. In my 43 years as an athlete, soldier, and LEO, I haven't seen a group of instuctors any better. Great chemistry among them, super presentation skills, tons of great info, and a great message. The trainers in the small group skill sessions were awesome as well, Andrea Seward, Dale Thompson, Steve Rakow, Jerry Hill, and all the rest. Having Coach there was icing on the cake. I learned immensely, was entertained and came away thinking, "this was the best money I've ever spent." Oh, I felt I paid sufficient "respect to my hamstrings!" Nice little workouts thrown in with perfect timing. I met some great folks as well.

Congrats Speal, amazing effort!

29/f/110

10 rounds for time of:

2 cleans, 100#
4 hspu (freestanding)
6 pull-ups

19:21

pre: wux2
post: stretching

ken c- thanks for the workout idea. good stuff, shoulders are fried.

3200m run

15:21

157 avg. heart

M/38/150

For those who haven't read the "Virtuosity" article, a classic by Coach, I figured I'd post the direct link to it here since it is relatively short (link: http://www.crossfit.com/cf-journal/Virtuosity.pdf).

A nice pertinent quote:
"What will inevitably doom a physical training program and dilute a coach’s efficacy is a lack of commitment to fundamentals. We see this increasingly in [...] supervising execution."

Speal - simply amazing! We can all dream to be that good one day!

#212 Nik-
I made that "mistake" when I first started CF a year and half ago, until I read what was correct on the posts! My Fran time when I first started was INSANELY long! If you do round 1, 21-15-9, then round 2, 21-15-9 and round 3, 21-15-9, you do Fran THREE times, rather than three rounds of Fran. What you need to do is round 1, 21 reps, round 2, 15 reps, round 3, 9 reps. (Not that it is really all that bad - I got strong QUICK, haha...but my time was about 20 times longer than Speal's, haha..)

#199 Squib in Iraq - I'm not sure why you'd want to do anything other than CF...you can see by Speal's performance, or other videos like "Tosh does Grace", any of Greg A's, etc. that nothing else will make you faster or stronger. We all hit plateaus - the trick is to figure out a way through it. Are you eating Zone? If not, I'd HIGHLY HIGLY HIGLY recommend it because it makes all the difference in the world! You will start lifitng more weight and turning in PRs all over the place. It takes a lot of work intially to figure it out and may be difficult downrange, but it's worth it if you can. Don't quit just because you're bored - now's the time to set some challenging CF goals for yourself and get after it...

Great video

Question:
Two CFers are doing Fran. Both finish in 3:00. One did kipping/elliptical pullups, one did deadhang pullups. Who's got more power?

rather than look at the chin over the bar qualifier, check out the elbows meeting/breaking centerline. His meet or break it for the vast majority of his chins so those at least are solid in my book. I'm not a thruster expert so I have no opinion on those. Seems like a full lockout would slow you down, and for something insane like a 2:00 fran, you'd actually have to begin to pull it down once it got to the correct height. Maybe put up a soft target to whack the bar with at the top which would be the "work" equivalent of a lockout? Just an idea. Could also do some awesome targeted barbell burpees with a setup like that. hmm.

WOW Speal that is crazy man. Congrats.

Funny and typical reading some comments discrediting these pullups. Glad I'm not insecure ;)

Garrett #258, Are you implying that there's anything at all about Speal's performance that indicates a lack of commitment to the fundamentals? If so, I'll say you've greatly misunderstood the demands of elite performance and the charter of CrossFit.

In contrast, I believe that Speal's performance specifically, and his ethic, attitude, and commitment to excellence and virtuosity in general are as close to ideal as anything I've seen in the community.

Why don't you send us a video of you or one of your athletes demonstrating what you would consider a virtuosic performance of Fran? I would love to see what you think that looks like.

GP - The one who weighs more.

#225 Reality Check...I am afraid the Vancouver crew can't take credit for these pullups. AFT in Calgary is the first any of us have ever seen doing them. OPT offcourse now uses it, mind you with a much wider grip and perhaps he was the first. I would love to see someone post a good instructual video on it. I personally don't have them down yet but am working on it. Maybe we will get Remington and Andy Sac to do an instructual video for the community. They are two Vancouver crossfit guys that use it.

24/m/175

Did yesterdays WOD today and was super impressed with the results. Before I could only do 2-5 muscle-ups and then I was spent this time I got to 27 in under 10 mins (I forgot to time myself) and then one the hook supprting one of my rings slipped out of the ceiling (it was in stud). So my question is to anyone out there who would know: Any tips on making sure a hook wont slip out of your cieling? Thanks.

#261 - GP
All other things being equal, power output would be equal.
Or is this some hypothetical 'chicken or egg' thing your getting at? ;-)
JPW makes a good point too!

#229 - Aaron.
IMO Micheal Johnson does look funny when he runs, but that doesn't take away the fact that he's fast as all get-out!

Dr. Smith
You make valid points about establishing standards for the movement for the legitimacy of our sport.

As in everything, there are shades of gray, and there always will be, but established standards will go a long way toward reducing that gray area.

None of this debate takes away from a fantastic performance by Speal.

Today's discussion really made me think, and I am grateful for all the insight and comments...even though I may not agree with it all, I certainly enjoyed the discussion on this 'rest day for time' (#54 - Mike - THAT was hilarious).

I'm going to go work on that butterfly kip, regardless.

THANKS, ALL!

#267 - James_K9
Did that hook just screw into the stud? If so, I don't think you'll have much luck

Go on the message board and google 'ring mounting'. Here's the best one I saw in a brief search.
http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=14061&page=1

I would just like to thank all the instructors who helped us at the Certification in Alexandria. We all learned a lot and had a great time. Pat - you're a great speaker and very informative at the same time. The Major down at Quantico gets my award for making me want to work out more, and more intensly. I'm glad you're on our team.

Thanks again. It was well worth it.

4 hour PT on the beach any one?
http://www.navyseals.com/training-videos

Speal, awesome work!

#241 Dr. G
Good argument. If CF is the "sport of fitness", very specific rules are needed. This isn't necessary for the vast majority of CF'ers and their WOD's, but essential for sorting out claims to "world record" or title of Champion of the CF Games. Otherwise, you're always going to have to weigh whether 3 reps that weren't full ROM were okay, but 5 is too many. What about weighing a perfect performance that is 5 sec slower than one with 3 reps where the chin didn't quite clear the bar?

As Dr. G alluded, the rules already exist, its just a matter of how or whether they are applied. If relaxed, where's the new line? As Coach says, "men will die for points", and they'll certainly cut corners to achieve victory.

#261 GP

Assuming equal weight, height, arm length, and ROM, they're equal.

I love the fact that speal is wearing the old school headphones. He gets fran done before even one song can finish.

going to have to learn those pull-ups.

Just watched Speal's 2:05. Thought it was totally sick, completely legit. my .02.

Interestingly I was just watching the Greg and Josh Fran vid and Josh had a similar pullup move in the sense he was coming straight down from the top sometimes... He kipped more traditionally and harder at the end.

This newer style made me think of CFJ on "what is fitness" this form seems smoother and certainly faster, keeping the momentum more the same direction. That is a "3rd wave" adaptation of efficiency for pullups. On the negative he seems to be able to really let go and freefall, possibly even a little better recovery than normal on the negative.

Really impressive. Great effort Mr. Speal, it was really something to watch. Thanks for posting it up. Just when I was getting the kips down ;>

Just watched Speal's 2:05. Thought it was totally sick, completely legit. my .02.

Interestingly I was just watching the Greg and Josh Fran vid and Josh had a similar pullup move in the sense he was coming straight down from the top sometimes... He kipped more traditionally and harder at the end.

This newer style made me think of CFJ on "what is fitness" this form seems smoother and certainly faster, keeping the momentum more the same direction. I.e. a "3rd wave" adaptation of efficiency for pullups. On the negative he seems to be able to really let go and freefall, possibly even a little better recovery than normal on the negative.

Really impressive. Great effort Mr. Speal, it was really something to watch. Thanks for posting it up. Just when I was getting the kips down too ;>

#269 Thanks

Still playing catchup from this weekend's travels.

30 mu for time
as rx'd in 17:07

First time on this one and I was hoping for sub 15 but a few misses took me out of that unfortunately.

i think dr garrett smith raises some pretty valid points...thanks Dr Garett for bringing it up, as a novice CF'er, it's the little things in performance and technique(full entension. locking elbows, achieving proper depth) that I tend to miss out on, and pointing it out makes all the difference...much appreciated!This kind of discussions are beneficial for everybody, and love the way you approach it objectively.

this of course, does not mean I am not in jaw- dropping awe of Speal...how can anyone make Fran look so easy??!?!?!??

Tony B. - I love the "Put up or shut up" comment.

Dr. G - This reminds me a thread over at pm where you were bashing Joe Micela. May be you should ease off a bit with your assumption and accept the reality. Perfect is the enemy of good.

The one person who will only load up the squat once it's perfect will always squat broomstick.
Your comments are becoming extremely offensive without a sound basis behind them.

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone out there!

did my first muscle up today...PR squat: 245

Had a great time at the cert, I only wish it would have been longer and we could have covered the topics to a more in depth level.

Hmm, decided to post some thoughts on Speal's Fran and Dr. G's form issues on the Boards. A might have a mini-manifesto up soon.

#220, Mark Erickson, writes,

"Is is possible energy is being stored and released in the connective tissue (ligaments and tendons) in the pull-ups which drop to the bottom and appear to rebound? That is, some energy is being conserved by the 'bounce' and not produced by the muscles?"

No. In order to reverse direction, at the bottom of the pull-up, from moving down to moving up, the athlete has to change direction. At that moment, he has zero kinetic energy in the vertical plane and zero potential energy in the vertical plane. There is no question that the purpose of kipping is to transfer momentum from the horizontal plane to the vertical plane, but that momentum comes from the athlete and only from the athlete.

Or, to put it another way, if the athlete is "storing" energy, where do you think he is getting that energy from, if not his muscles?

#284, Hari:

It is known that kangaroos conserve energy because when they hop the tendons in their legs act as springs storing and releasing energy on each hop and reducing the energy needs of their muscles. I was speculating that perhaps the same sort of thing may be happening with a "kip" that consists of vertical motion only with a "bounce" at the bottom. There has to be stretching of tendons at the bottom. Elastic tendons when stretched are storing energy which is released when the body begins moving upwards again. Thus energy is conserved. I just have no idea how much. It may be trivial. Just thinking.

Jim D, #235

You say,

>>The whole collapse of the sub-prime market had very little to do with foreclosures and defaults of the sub-prime loans. Instead, it had to do with the process that supported them.

and I agree. You then go into market forces that drove down the value of the derivatives and the monoline insurers. Market processes may have been on-going, but at best they pale in significance compared to the down grading, whether of insurers or of derivatives themselves, by the rating agencies. Small at first, then huge, spanning the whole range of investment grades, it caused an instantaneous devaluation of the derivatives. Coupled with accounting rules, brokerage houses had an immediate shortfall in and demand for collateral. Instead of the market working through the nebulous housing decline, the brokers and banks suffered a giant loss in asset present value. The rating houses failed their diligence, and precipitated a world-wide crisis.

Changes in the interest rate deterministically change all present values, while market forces randomly fine tune asset values according to experience and at auction.

You said,

>>Someone earlier said that in a true free market there is no inflation. I could hardly disagree more.

Back in the 30s and 40s, before Keynes became the cornerstone of politicized economics, text books defined inflation as an increase in the money supply that causes a general price increase. In my view, that is still the only useful definition. And in that sense, a free market can't directly cause inflation.

Inflation has come to be taught as an increase in prices. In that sense, individual commodities can be inflating or deflating according to market forces, as you say. That's short term market dynamics, and divorced from the money supply. That view of inflation has no macroeconomic value.

Bingo #115,

The NYT published an interesting map of the continental US showing where subprime mortgage failures have been occurring. Google for “Impact of the Subprime Mortgage Squeeze”. The map is badly distorted because the columns are maps of the county or counties, so are sized proportional to area and neither population, number of mortgages, or total mortgage dollars. The companion maps called the “Construction Boom” and “Job Loss” are helpful (in spite of their silly below/above average coding). The data that went into these maps would be necessary to calculate whether red-lining has been a factor. Almost by definition it had to have been a factor, but it's not at all clear from the charts.

Jeff:

The charts are data as of NOW. Red-lining was causative in the creation of the sub-prime mortgage industry, but red-lining is (or may be) a parallel process that is not a causative factor in the present foreclosure environment.

I've seen that, and similar, charts. Dismal, depressing data from all over, but particularly in the upper Midwest where the regional economies never recovered from the post-9/11 plummet.

Awesome, Speal. Very inspiring.

Speaking of which, this past weekend was a great time at the cert in Alexandria this past weekend, thanks to all of the trainers, coaches, and attendees. It seems that no matter how much you think you know there's always so much more. I'm still sore, but I'm looking forward to putting it all into practice. Also, I agree with #37...it was definitely worth it.

I've been doing this for going on 5 weeks now and love it. However After doing my first overhead squats on sunday my back is still sore. I know i should have taken it a little easier on the weight. So a word of caution to any more newbies-go light on overhead squats, get the form down and slowly add weight.

#285, Mike Erickson, writes,

"It is known that kangaroos conserve energy because when they hop the tendons in their legs act as springs storing and releasing energy on each hop and reducing the energy needs of their muscles. I was speculating that perhaps the same sort of thing may be happening with a "kip" that consists of vertical motion only with a "bounce" at the bottom."

I think the difference may be that kangaroos never fully extend. (Their knees remain bent as they hop.) But the athlete needs to fully extend at the bottom of the pull-up, thereby eliminating any possibility of bouncing back.

#285, 290

The stretch-shorten cycle is used via muscle spindles. This 'reflex' is used by the kangaroos although their legs are built better biomechanically than ours are; however, conservation of energy within the tendons and muscles occurs in us as well through things like plyometrics, sprinting and high jumping.

Although dropping to straight hang on the pullups negates it for the biceps, it is definitely present for the shoulders at full extension in the pecs, lats, teres major and RC muscles. Therefore, there is definitely energy that is conserved from the descent into the next pullup.

And it's fairly significant to say the least namely because if you paused at the bottom of each rep you will definitely start to feel the effects quickly. However, that's just inherently built into our muscles to maintain muscle length so I wouldn't say it's cheating or anything.

Did "Wendy" in 16:00

21, 15, 12, 9, 6, 3
Pull-up
Back Squat 95#
Push Press 95#
Sit-up

Melissa did it in 17:00 with 40#

Does anyone have the time for the fastest strict fran...no kipping...straight pullups...any ideas?

Stevenlow -
In response to 285 and 290 - I agree with you 100%

You said it better than I ever could.

Steven Low:
Thanks for your detailed explanation. After digesting it I'm thinking fast cycle kipping pull-ups are analogous to fast cycle box jumps including the maximum power potential and superb athleticism. On target crossfit.

195-205-215-225-235-245-255

That video is very impressive.

Speal now has the fastest fran to a medicine ball and on a split pull-up bar.

I haven't seen anybody do it better than him in that setting, but that was a convenient setting. I'd like to see it plain, straight bar, no ball, just so I can brag about CrossFitters like him even more.

Awesome job.

QUOTE
The whole collapse of the sub-prime market had very little to do with foreclosures and defaults of the sub-prime loans. Instead, it had to do with the process that supported them.
ENDQUOTE

I think "very little" is overstating it. Had subprime loans not defaulted at rates much higher than prime then there would have been no crisis.

The core of the problem, however, was that we thought we had developed securities which would retain their value even in the event of high default rates.

In a nutshell we believed that we had designed a type of bond known as a CDO that was so diversified and well structured that even if disaster struck some of the bond holders would still get paid.

The CDO model turned out to be much less successful than had been hoped.

As for inflation - If the general purchasing power of money declines why is this not usefully defined as inflation?

Ref post #298

I don't get the "no ball" part of the plain Fran. That type of medicine ball doesn't give you any spring - it merely gives you the signal you went down far enough. Just as with the split bar, with no ball there, there will be the question of "did the athlete go far enough?"

I would prefer a straight bar with a ball. I would also prefer a deadweight pullup, but that's a different story.

Oops, I meant ref post #297. The lengthy sub-prime market diatribes got old a long time ago.

that video was rediculous
nice work Speal

Karl Smith, #298

You said,

>>Had subprime loans not defaulted at rates much higher than prime then there would have been no crisis.

The problem was that subprime loans overall defaulted at rates much higher than modeled for maximum investment grade ratings. The prime mortgage default rate, actual or modeled, had nothing to do with it.

You said,

>>we had designed a type of bond known as a CDO that was so diversified and well structured that even if disaster struck some of the bond holders would still get paid.

That's a romantic idea. These are gambling instruments, part of a casino game. When the subprime mortgage market failed, the big institutions had to search through their holdings to see which derivatives included subprimes, and how much. The “we” in your quotation were MBAs who created and sold the vehicles without the full knowledge of the purchaser. It was a casino game where the gambler is not told the odds. They only had the word of the rating services (wink-wink) that they were good deals, and backed by insurers, who were up to their hips in the same high risk derivatives.

Even before the subprime bust, derivatives were in trouble. Bear Stearns was hanging on by its fingernails because a couple of its hedge funds were on the verge of collapse. The subprime problem just pushed them over the edge.

The CDO model worked just fine. The salesmen got their commissions. Caveat emptor. Everything seemed to be working except the rating services.

The subprime problem turned from a market devaluation into a crisis only when Moody's, S&P, and Fitch suddenly dropped the ratings. All covered instruments suddenly plummeted in present value, regardless of their actual default rate. Some communities experienced foreclosures (and delinquencies) approaching 25%, and some surely were beating the nominal rate. We don't know how they were bundled, but the rating services threw out the babies with the bath water. Pulling the plug appears to have also sucked other good investments down the drain. Time will tell.

You asked,

>>If the general purchasing power of money declines why is this not usefully defined as inflation?

The answer is that your definition conceals the thing that is inflating, and the cause. Inflation is a certain kind of expansion of the money supply, controlled by government. It is not an increase in prices. We are currently experiencing a general increase in prices because the cost of almost everything at auction, e.g., pork bellies or ethanol, depends on the energy expended to produce and market it, and energy costs are soaring. OPEC is the principal cause of a general price increase. And OPEC is probably acting out of the perception, correct or not, that the US is expanding the supply of dollars too fast. The energy market is badly broken.

>>The problem was that subprime loans overall defaulted at rates much higher than modeled for maximum investment grade ratings. The prime mortgage default rate, actual or modeled, had nothing to do with it.>The subprime problem turned from a market devaluation into a crisis only when Moody's, S&P, and Fitch suddenly dropped the ratings<<

I don't know about that. It was a nail biter back in Aug 2007 and again just after the new year.

The potential downgrade of the monolines was almost a crisis because the monolines wrote what are known as CDS or credit default swaps.

CDSs act like insurance policies on bonds. The way you cover a bond position is to buy CDS. The monolines were being downgraded in particular because it did not look like (and in my opinion it is still not certain) they would be able to stand behind the CDS contracts.

In that case the banks are required under FASB 157 to writedown those contracts. Some of the banks, Citi in particular, were already skating low on their capital. More writedowns would have threatened their well capitalized status at the Fed and that would have been disaster.

That particular round in the crisis was not directly related to what happened at Bear. Bear faced essentially a bank run. Monday that weak there was talk that Bear would run short on cash. It was Wed I think that CEO Alan Schwartz got on TV and told everyone that all was well.

He didn't look good. By the end of Thursday enough account holders had extracted their money from Bear so that she was indeed short of cash.

Anyway, long story short on the CDOs I don't think the rating agencies had much to do with the collapse. They were johnny come lately's to the disaster.

The rating agencies featured big in the CDS crisis but for different reasons.

You can email for my discussion on the CDO market and the future of the CLO market, if you are interested. - Or if you want to discuss inflation. I disagree but it is too much to type here.

60 min spin