This reminds me. I need to get my kettlebells back.

Whoa...bunting's old lady is smoking!

No rest for me! Making up the past two WOD's tomorrow. Running the 4 x 400m should season the meat nicely for Diane.

I liked the comparison of the jump to the kettleball swing. That really brings home just how useful the kettleball swing is a functional exercise.

Have Fun,Train Hard,

Billy

Thanks coach. Much needed. body is very battered and bruised today. catchup is no good but back on track now which is good.

Didn't realise the circumstances relating to Murph, did some research and my hat definitely goes off to him and the unbelievable effort and lack of self preservation he showed. I don't think the word courage actually does Murph justice. If only there were more people in the world like him.

This is one of my favorite cycles in memory - body does not feel beat up at all, though twice I found myself post WOD prostate and pain wracked after a PR.

Looking forward to the article, Paul

Speaking of kettlebells, anyone know where to get some?

Back is killing from the deadlifts. Good times!!

#5 Lone Survivor, outstanding book. Must read. Tells the story of Lt Murphy and his unit.

So happy to get a rest... Deadlifts did the ultimate kill on my back and legs today! Awesome can't wait to start again!

check out CF Surrey UK site and scroll down to the 10 days to get kicked out of your globo gym. Hilarious

Really........ more of this stuff

First it was the red coats, then it was the southerners, after that ze Germans, then the Russians, now we attack whole religions with sophistry. Good Job Bigots

By the way Fran: 2:47

Go Jamie! Nice pants and nice muscles..

Did some back squatting after Diane
Made it up to 215 but failed at 220.. blah. I think I can hit it next time.

Consistent periodic info. on the kettlebell swing. Bummer they don't get into other great KB movements. Cleans, Snatches, Presses, Bottoms up Presses, Windmills, etc. So, since the focus is on swings and swings alone, maybe someone can tell me. Why is every swing performed in CrossFit taken to the overhead position? The swing is meant to develope hip power, with the arms acting loosely, like ropes. To get a heavy kettlebell overhead, you must initiate a front raise as your hip drive will only elevate it so far. Jeff Martone, who has been chosen as the CrossFit KB authority, never swings past chest level. Also, no one during his demos swings the bell overhead. I learned that the height of the bell is determined by the power delivered by the hips. This is how I continue to perform swings. There are times when it's getting to my eyeballs, at times only getting as high as my beltline. Just curious for an explanation.

Silverback, good question. I've wondered this, and will have to ask around.

Spider Chick- Saw the picture of your car on the affiliate page. Super cool- CF, Ohio, and Georgetown.. a few of my fav's. Love it

Great photo. What a hard charger.

love the guys face when Jeff M says "we can fix this right here"

yessssss!!!

I'm finally home from school and all situated. Can't wait to get back into a consistent crossfit routine. I guess I'll start off tomorrow rest day strong by waking up at about 4 in the afternoon and then watching t.v. all night... yeah right, I'll be going running, then training for soccer already.

#11 i agree with your assessment of history and your concern with how we, today, treat the larger group of people from which those who fight against us come. However, this article seems fairly free on sophistry (it is a listing of facts) and does a pretty good job of not indicting the broader muslim community, i think. I could be wrong of course; been watching the tornadoes around here.

Nice Fran time.

Handstand pushups are ftl.

Missed the last 2 WODs because of Finals. Going to make up the 800 meter runs tomorrow, but hold off on Diane. Instead I am going to do the CFcentral 300 challenge on 5/10.

This workout is very special to me because it was the first CF type WOD I had ever tried. I used to follow the gymjones web site until I found out more about crossfit, but this workout is where it all started. It was where I learned about myself, its what changed me. It has been over a year and half since I last tried it and I still remember how it felt afterwards. It destroyed me more than physically, but at the same time unleashed me. It got me thinking that self-destruction does a whole bunch more than self-improvement.
This WOD is different than the others, its f
@#%^&g Personal! and I AM GOING TO KILL IT!

Anybody else want to join in?

All this is so new. I will say that I was very apprehensive about doing the HSPU with Diane but I got up there and thank God Billy told me to breath otherwise I would have ended up with black eyes like someone else did.
I enjoyed them it was great. I figure I have about a week left until I start doing pullups again(pulled something last cycle). Does anyone know what the next cycle is? I am dropping off the planet for a while and want to take it underway with me. I hope its chest or stomach.

Billy, thanks for keeping me on the right path, I really appreciate you and Lysa teaching me. I may be scarce for the next couple of weeks.

#5, #8 is right. Pick up a copy of that book. Well worth it.

www.crossfitgreyskull.com

There was no lack in investigation of all those folks' activities. The thourghness of the history of actions proves that. Someone at some level always knew what they were up to. There was a lack of communication, within differnt agencies, and between them as well. Even if if everyone was sharing information I don't think you could have convinced people that what happened on 9/11 could have happened. It's an fing plane flying into a building! Who had that on their radar?

#13 - I heard Crossfit takes the swing OH b/c more work is being done. It's true that you can start to negate the hip drive and run the risk of muting the hips, utilizing the arms to lift (forgetting hip drive, and concerned about doing the action). I've heard that coaches thought process is that if more work is done in less time and that is the goal, then so be it. I'm glad though that we finally see a video on how "acceptable" form can be corrected. The client is clearly squatting, as opposed to a quick action deadlift movement - aka a standing vertical jump. And it is a shame that Crossfit does not do more unilateral work - be it with kb, db or whatever.

First time posting. Not much to say other than I love Crossfit. I've been doing Crossfit on and off for about 1 1/2 years. I am currently living in the Canadian Arctic so needless to say I have limited equipment, but I still manage to keep up with the WOD.

It's still about minus 20 celcius here,,,buried in snow and the ocean is frozen.

I check out the site everyday. Love the videos. All you hardcores rock.

Are there any Crossfit gyms in East coast Canada?

Jamie, I love those Lulu's, I gotta get me some of those!
-C

M/19/184/83

As rx

Rest for time : 8:30:49

Felt a good form for this WOD ;)

Had been looking forward to a 4th workout and rest tomorrow, so it come as a plesent surprise.

sometimes I can't understand what Martone is saying, but nevertheless I've learned much from him.

I don't think the practical and political significance of moral relativism can be overstated. You got FBI guys watching budding Islamic paramilitary units training in the US, and they stop the surveillance because they are accused of thinking the people are up to what they in fact were up to.

You see this constantly in the news. Most recently, Iran was complaining about how we are dealing with the Sadr Army. Why are they complaining? In all likelihood because we are screwing up their efforts to destabilize Iraq.

It is absolutely stunning, once you get this perspective, just how brazen our enemies can be in demanding we cooperate with them in facilitating our own destruction.

"Here, hold this bomb for me while I set the fuse. I'm going to blow up that grocery store."

"No, I cannot cooperate with such an act."

"What, do you think I am a lowly terrorist? Do you think all Muslims are terrorists? What is wrong with you? Are you a racist?"

"Oh no, not at all. Please forgive me, Abdullah. Sure, I'll hold it. How long do you want to set the timer for?"

It's almost that bad.

What moral relativism does is paralyze the analytical faculty by eliminating standards of behavior. It eliminates the acceptable/unacceptable distinction in such a way that tolerance becomes privileged over common sense and self preservation.

Right on Barry! Moral relativism is a disease that is eating away at our overly-lawyered and blame ridden society.

Every American should read Mark Steyn's America Alone to fully understand the consequences of giving in to these trends.

Segue, DDG-112 was named for LT Michael Murphy this week.

Jeremy

RE: Why do CFitters swing the kettlebell overhead?

Coach's Answer: http://www.crossfit.com/journal/library/25_04_kettlebell_swing.pdf (wfs)

#25 Matt

There's a great one in Fredericton NB. Great coaches, sweet facility, I highly recommend it.

If you're looking to go even further east there is also one in St. John's Nfld.

#13 Silverback,

Ditto, Tim's reply (#23)

There's a CFJ article about this (American style vs. Russian style swing). In short, moving the KB through a greater range of motion = more work. I believe the power output was calcuated for both styles and the American style (overhead) won out easily. HTH

I put this in the comment section of the KB article mentioned above in post 31. You have to scroll down the Archived library to find the comment on it.

The three pictures above (again) show how CFers 1) turn the swing into a squatting leg drive motion instead of a hip drive motion [with a too wide stance], 2) they pull up with their arms and traps, and 3) they arch at the top, making their low back a fulcrum that absorbs the force. No doubt about Coach's math that this way produces more force, but IMO the swing is best used as a tool for low back endurance with hip drive. Think of the DL as the "strength" hip drive exercise, the Clean/PC as the "power" hip drive exercise, and the KB swing as the "endurance" hip drive exercise. IMO, turning it into another squatting exercise is a misapplication.

To use an analogy, you have a pile of wood and ten people, and you also have a van and a pick-up truck. Now, you could put the wood in the van, and the people in the back of the truck, and you could move each load from point A to point B, but each scenario is problematic and sub-optimal.

----------------

[from comment section of CF journal article on the swing.]

I am the "TC" quoted in this article. I stand by my quote, and only decry it's use out-of-context to create a battle between the American and Russian swing. Two-handed swings can be done at all levels, if correct and safe form is used. But the power of the swing is in it's potential for building strength-endurance, not maximal power, so a comparison to the Clean and Jerk is an apples and oranges arguement.

The thing that most CFers do wrong while overhead swinging is shown clearly in the photos of the article - page 1, the gentleman's knees are still bent, the back is arched, the bell is past 12 midnight, and his head is poked forward. The bended knees make the low back the fulcrum on the upswing - not smart for power or back health. The arched back should be neutral, a much stronger position to stop the KB. The bell should be stopped just short of vertical for three reasons - the distance traveled will be nearly the same as vertical, the reversal of direction can happen quicker (allowing for more reps per minute), and you will avoid the risk of "losing it" behind you, which can easily wrench your wrists, elbows and/or shoulders, and possibly your ankle if it falls closely behind you. The head poking forward is unneeded compensation for an excessive swing behind the shoulders.

Try doing the two-handed swing following the parameters I describe and see how much more solid and safe you feel. Overhead swings are great, IF you do them safely.

FWIW, Russian KB Lifters rarely do two handed swings - they do 1 handed swings with very heavy KBs, usually 32kg if they do snatches with the 24kg, and they swing the 40kg if they snatch the 32kg KB. Read Steve Cotter's article in the July 2007 CF Journal to get a more detailed and "qualified" description of the way Russians swing the KB.

Mr. Glassman's actions after this article was published seem to indicate agreement with my "needing more qualified" KB instructors, since he has since recruited both Jeff Martone and Steve Cotter to write articles for the Journal and put on KB certifications for CrossFit. Very smart moves on his part, just as he recruited Mike Burgener to improve the Olympic Lifting technique of CFers, and got Rippetoe's expertise on the powerlifts.

-------------------

Tom

p.s. I attended one of the first certs (7/03), at the first affiliate (CFNorth) for those who don't know me. I have high regard for the CF system of fitness, but I did want to give a different perspective from some one who has specialized in KB training.

#32 RJ

Thanks alot. Are you from the east coast? Im originally from Halifax and would love to start up a Crossfit gym there.

Kettlebells are being sold at Target.

I basically got kicked out of my police department's gym yesterday performing Diane. Our weight room is on the fourth floor and I guess the Deputy Chiefs on the third and fifth floors didn't like the ground shaking with the deadlifts. Maybe I'll go to a Globo next time

Great video. I'm pretty sure my swings looked like that guys first ones. Now I know how to fix it.

Well needed rest day! Anyone else have an extremely sore back?

Ahhh rest. Yay. One day back, one day off. This isn't so hard!

I'm going to work on skills today and build some parallettes. My L-Sit needs work, as does my L-Pull.

Today, life is L.

re #11: Funny, we didn't even start arguing this one, and already you can tell the liberal lost the argument. Apparently we're all bigots...

Rule #1: You know you won an argument with a liberal when he starts demonizing you.

Apparently you think it would have been wiser if, when all those groups threatened us, to let them trounce all over us? I got news for you, there are people in this world who constantly seek to conquer, destroy, steal, rape, pillage, murder, or any other number of verbs used to describe evil actions.

Let's answer a few here:
"Redcoats" - If a country's citizens have openly declared they want independence from you, imperial control over them is wrong. Today, that idea is dead, and the "Redcoats" are our friends and allies.

"Southeners" - The idea of absolute right and wrong (believed by Lincoln) vs the idea of a democracy choosing what is right and wrong (believed by Stephen Douglas). No matter what, it will always be wrong for me to go and kill your children. And likewise, slavery will always be wrong. Today, that idea is dead, and "Southerners" are otherwise known as Americans.

"ze Germans" - The ideas proposed by the National Socialist (Nazi) Party, I don't think I even need to go there, were entirely wrong. Today, that idea is dead, and Germans are our friends and allies.

"Russians" - The ideas proposed by Karl Marx and Freidrich Engels, to steal property from those who've worked hard to get it, to suppress political expression, to murder those who disagree with you, etc... Another wrong idea. Today, that idea is dead (in Russia anyhow), and the Russians are no longer our enemies.

Note in all these, the people were never the enemy, the idea was. And so we go to modern day:

"Fundamentalist Islam" - The idea that it is proper to specifically target and murder innocent people to achieve your goals, that everyone must forcibly convert to your religion or be murdered, that women are second class citizens... I could go on... That idea is wrong. Today, that idea is rampant in Fundamentalist Muslim circles, and it's that idea that we are fighting, not the people. And if we don't have weak knees, we'll win that war.

I have been seeing all this talk about KBs. I have some great exercises that i have made up and was wondering if people are interested in them. I am not trying to take away from Crossfit, I do it every day, just adding to the awesome power of the KB. I am a Personal Trainer out in indianapolis and also heading into OCS for the Marine Corps.

PS: Back and legs are ripped from yesterdays workout. I love it!

#41,
Nice.

Ahhh!! Just had to post here cause I'm so damn excited. I'm at the Toronto Airport right now... getting ready for my flight to San Fran!
I'm going to the One World Certification May 17/18th and before that I'm going to hit up CrossFit San Fran, and Santa Cruz central and north! I'm such a geek! Can't wait to meet everyone that I admire~!

needed the break today

I'm so glad Crossfit introduced me to Kettlebells.

I can't wait to do the Crossfit Kettlebell Cert with Jeff!

Nice post Tom #34. Good info.

Tony

My first reaction was “surely there has to be a huge overarching conspiracy here!” but a bit more thought lead me to conclude that a lot of what happened is just normal bureaucracy in action added to some US Federal law enforcement skittishness dealing with religious fringe groups with a touch of the US Bill of Rights.

That Abdel Rahman got his green card despite the State Department revoking his Visa takes nothing more than imperfect info sharing, something Government departments excel at, and when they do share everything they get lambasted for privacy violations. So no collusion here.

Like it or not, political correctness is a big deal and pursuing an investigation in a manner that appears to be politically incorrect makes large waves. No bureaucrat is comfortable making waves, so hammering Nosair and his group for weapons training would be a big non-starter, unless they wanted to go after every gun group doing the same. That is an obvious non-starter as the NRA and its supporters would cry bloody murder over suppression of 2nd Amendment rights. (Personally I feel that this amendment has been seriously abused, but as a Canadian it doesn’t really affect me). So dropping the investigation seems stupid in hindsight, but in the context of the time makes sense.

The one thing I cannot explain to my satisfaction is why the Khartoum embassy gave Rahman a visa in the first place, unless the Cairo message was either ignored or misfiled, both possible and both signs of incompetence.

Rather than using this article as a means of bashing US law enforcement it should be viewed as a case study in how with luck and skill someone can manipulate the system to get what they want, to a point. Despite getting a not-guilty plea for murder Nosair still did hard time. The system is not perfect (it would be frightening if it was) but on average it works and just needs tinkering to deal with new advances in technology while keeping a firm eye on the rights of the citizens as the principle that it is better to let ten guilty men go free than jail one innocent man still holds.

Right?

Wow, I met Jamie at the Cert in Bmore and she called me a stud during FGB...haha...awesome!

I'm finally starting to train people....It feels amazing to open peoples eyes to real fitness. Thank Coach and CrossFit!

Filthy Fifty
30 min Rest
Fight Gone Bad

Natalie - 21/115/5'7"
FF - 33:00
FGB- 292 (sub row machine@ 60lbs for rower)

Thomas - 24/195/6'
FF- 20:38
FGB - 407 (sub row machine @ 180 for rower)

#29 - very nice way to describe it. I am so glad I read your post because just today I had a gentleman come up to me and ask me to do that very thing. Luckily after reading your post I was smart enough not to do it, so I just helped him find a child that didn't know any better to hold it for him. Problem solved.

#41 - this is exactly what I would have typed if I was just a little bit earlier, had any sort of rhetorical skills and a healthy dose of more intellect. Thank you for stealing my thunder.

# 36 Did you notice they come in rainbow colors? Great for the kids :)

As for the article, thought provoking, and emotion stirring. All the thoughts shared on it are interesting, whether I agree with them or believe they are misguided or not. I am not as strong in putting my thoughts into writing. Every war, and mass murder is sad and upsets me. How humans can be so inhumane is beyond my understanding.

Looking GOOD Greek Goddess!!

Mat #41, Barry- Spot on guys...well said.

I think it's tough for civilized folks to understand the the brutality and hatred fundamentalist Islam has for the west. The Left leaning in our western democracies should be up in arms for the atrocities visited upon the women of these societies alone...yet there is only silence on that topic. How do you marginalize half your populace and not expect to be backwards and envious of the success in the rest of the world?

Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler and a host of other socialist/communist leaders kept vast sections of their populace pacified via terror ie. the constant fear of death, imprisonment and torture. Fundamentalist Islam is no different...it just now has a mandate from God.

This is in response to comment 41

Could you elaborate on the fundamentals of Islam for me. I have never read anything stating what your claiming. Please no American sources thank you

Please don't call me a liberal.

# 54
So 'bigot' is ok but 'liberal' is not?

Jamie-

You look amazing! so great to see you on the main page. Jamie is not only effin ripped, but one of the nicest crossfit folks ever!

25/m/175

Fran: 5:41 (new PR)

#29 and 41... nicely said.

#11 and 54 Bob, not all Islam is bad. Nat all of anything is anything... fallacious liberal argument. Unfortunately, a significant portion of Islam is bad. If you are interested in learning the fundamentals of Islam, I would recommend READING some scholarly books on the subject. If you really want to educate yourself, then you should also READ some books on fundamentalist Islam (much different from fundamentals of Islam) and different sets of beliefs within islam (Wahabi, etc.).

If you are going to get your information solely from what is provided to you in soundbites on TV and what someone else takes the time to give you in a message board/chat room/IM, then you will be woefully uninformed about the world you live in. If you close your mind to scholarship and opinions because they come from America, or any other place, category, source, then rest assured I won't call you a liberal. There are other terms for people who are that closed minded.

If you are feeling really adventurous, you could do some traveling to places without sunny beaches and thriving tourist industries and begin to appreciate the advantages you doubtless enjoy, and perhaps give thanks to those who know that there are in fact things worse than war and who provided you those freedoms.

End rant...

Missed this whole cycle. Got back in town today and did Dianibeth.

21-15-9 of
225# deadlift
bar dips (63, 45, 27)

14:30

Cheers,
Scott
m/37/197

apolloswabbie, are you sure it was your "prostate" that the WOD effected? =) it might just feel like that actually. not having a prostate of my own i wouldn't know. jamie, you are SO strong and beautiful, girl! my 3 on 1 off cycle is a little different than the main page, so i'm excited to workout today and get my butt kicked. i love crossfit!

"Appoloswabbie" I am sure you meant to type "prostrate" as you have no doubt endured having your "prostate" explored by an overzealous flight surgeon on numerous occasions. am enjoying a day off and looking forward to a 5K with my kids in the morning. Let's hope CF helps me keep up with them.

You can pontificate all day long about whether or not Islam is good or bad....bottom line is four airplanes loaded with Americans were flown into buildings filled with Americans...do I think that is worth fighting about....damn straight!

#60 Mark, you wouldn't happen to be running the ZooRun tomorrow are you?
- Chad

No "Run the Bay" Milwaukee

YES! This is my favorite WOD!! Ive been waiting to see this one again!

As for the religious/political chat.....Im pulling the swedish card.

5 rounds of:

45 pound Kettlebell Swing, 10 reps
5 Pullups

Total time: 5:46:52

Finished up with:

15 Lunges Overhead dumbell, 20 pounds (right arm)
15 Lunges Overhead dumbell, 20 pounds (left arm)

JAMIE! DAAAAMMN Girl! You are lookin' strong and lean! Great to see you on the main site, since we never seem to be able to cross our paths at certs! Hope wedding plans are rockin' and rollin'!

Hugs,
Lisa
www.crossfitflagstaff.com

LOL, nice link "when jihad comes to america". WTF when is CF gonna quit fear mongering for the new world order? All this terror is self inflicted. Thats right. How do you bring down 3 buildings with 2 planes? Not an easy question to answer is it? Are you going to argue with former CIA agent Robert Baer who says it is an inside job? WAKE UP!!!!!!!

re #54: Bob, a lot of the things I'd like to say I really can't, in polite company (for example, just look up the three letters FGM on google, that's just one of the common practices in societies where Fundamentalist (strict, by the book) Islam is the way of life, the rule of law).

I can bring most of these up by reference:
- The murder of Theo Van Gogh - murdered for speaking against practices within Islam.

- The status of non-Muslims as "Dhimmis" in Fundamentalist Islamic nations (A dhimmi is a second class citizen, and are forced to submit to humiliating regulations per the Qur'an's command that they "feel themselves subdued" (Sura 9:29)

- The fatwa issued on the lives of artists and Danish newspaper editors for "the Mohammed cartoons"

- The "honor killing" of sisters Amina and Sarah Said.

There's plenty more, but you get the point...

On top of that, (most likely due to fear of retribution), rarely are these acts widely denounced in the moderate Muslim communities. Again, I believe it's because they know the nature of militant, Fundamentalist Islam, and they fear for their lives.

re #67: Okie dokie buddy. Watch out behind you, I think that's Bigfoot about to pop your head like a zit.

#67 - totally, its just like all those others...
---JFK
---area 51
---that time when Paris Hilton was hanging out with the shaman

all conspiracies and it is about time we all wised up.

Made up the 800m runs today:

1. 2:53, rest 5 min. (too long)
2. 3:10, rest 3 min
3. 3:19, rest 2 min
4. 3:17, rest until tomorrows WOD

Weird that the longest drop in times was between set 1 and 2 and I rested the longest.

#67 Bob

First of all three planes hit three buildings. Second, have you ever seen what 20,000 plus pounds of jet fuel can do to a structure? Wake up and smell the coffee, you can't get four government employees to agree where to go for lunch let alone conceal a conspiracy like 9/11.

PS-Be careful they are probably monitoring your phone and computer!

#67:

Here you go:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=5#wtc7

#7, you can get kettlebells at Dick's

Did a workout from the demos.

5 Rds
7 Pullups
7 Thrusters 75#
7 Burpees

6:58

In response to #54
These are just three quotes from the Koran, you could probably find a few hundred more, this was just a casual search...you can say im taking it out of context, etc, etc, but if you are really interested then read the Koran itself and make your own opinions (and the sources are not American, if that is your determining factor as to whether information is relevant)..Look, I dont really care if people are liberal, conservative, whatever, but please just think rationally and do some real research as to what you believe (def. agree with post 58 in that)..The reason I'm an atheist is because growing up, I read the bible cover to cover twice, and I didnt agree with a lot of it. All I'm saying is know why you are muslim or christian or whatever else, actually study and research what you believe. However, if someone committed crimes in the name of atheism itself (big difference of an atheist committing a crime such as robbing a bank for money, and an atheist using his ideology to think he was justified in robbing the bank), i myself would vehemently denounce what they did, and do anything in my power to make sure they are stopped..thats what i have against islam at the moment, very few people speak against what is happening, and when it does happen others claim religious intolerance..You are responsible for your actions, and like it or not, you are responsible for those you associate with.

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam." (Surah 3:19)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)

M/33/5'6"/185

I'm a day behind, did Diane today.

DL
225 (broken sets)
7,7,7
5,5,5
5,4

HSPU
Still modified with ankles on Smith machine.

Here's the question: Should I have dropped weight to get 21-15-9 without breaking up the sets and increasing the intensity?

I heard that Martone is giving up the kettlebells and is going to go on a dynamic motivational speaking tour.

pull up ladders...14 sets with an extra 14

clean and jerks 15-12-9

3:31- 1:33- :35

Isn't this a page to post workout times...thought so. Keep your opinions on religion/conspiracies, and what not posted to your myspace pages.

KBSwinger, that's part of what rest day is for. It's a day to bathe yourself in IcyHot, sit in a chair, and give your opinion on the posted article.

I've been looking up Pose running and am interested in trying it out. Has anyone else done it with any amount of success? They claim that their method of running is more bio-mechanically sound and will result in less pain and injuries to the legs and knees. I am looking for any anecdotal feedback and/or practical pointers on applying their training techniques. Thanks

31/f/130/5'4"

Just did Wednesday's 4 X 800 M.

3:05
3:16
3:44
3:16

Thought I was gonna barf after that second leg. Ouch.
Our affiliate will open in the next 2 weeks! Can't wait!

KBSwinger:
It clearly states this today and each rest day, "Post thoughts to comments." I don't even pretend to know the reasons these articles are given to us on rest day, but could it be that coach feels we need to exercise our minds as well as our bodies. Let's face it, atheletic people are usually sterotyped as dumb jocks, correlating their body mass or abilities to brain size. Maybe we all need to exercise this vital organ more often.
It has been stated many times before, if you don't want to read the comments then don't. Post your times, reps, whatever, and get on with life.

3200m run

16:00

167 avg. heart

M/38/150

That dude has long hair!

#82 The Good Shepherd
I posted the below a couple days earlier to Spider Chick but cut-and-pasted here for you with minor changes. I hope it helps.

I've found that POSE is extremely taxing on my calves and I had to work into it slowly.
It has taken me 2 years to be able to use it consistently on the track in the faster running workouts like 400 and 800m's.

I started using POSE on my 5 km runs and only used POSE for the first and last 100m and slowly worked up from there.
As soon as I started adding speed it seemed to add more stress to my calves because I could definitely feel my calves afterward.
When I started to feel it in my calves I rested POSE and went back to heel striking for the rest of the run.
That said, I'm pleased with POSE. I've have never had coaching on it except through the CrossFit and POSE websites though.
I PR'd our last 5 K run using POSE and the 800m workout was faster than my last one also.
I'm not getting any younger either(46) but seem to be getting faster using it.

Listen to your calves!

#41 Very nicely put. Couldn't have said it any better. - "The Infidel"

I decided to try the "fight gone bad today" I died after the first round!! Wow!!!

241 total

#67
Well Bob it's a simple recipe, you learn how to fly a plane, scare the heck out of civilians, lock yourself in the cockpit and fly into buildings. It's not to hard to be an evil person. It's just difficult to understand why someone wants to be evil. If you poke about for a bit and go exploring you can start to get a feel for the reasoning behind such unconventional warfare. Then you can stop daydreaming about government plots, whether or not we landed on the moon, and the gentle nature of Jihad.
You just keep up that dreaming though, Bob. It's always nice to see creative thinkers making simple things difficult.
by the way... if you have any interesting ways to make aluminum foil into a microwave reflector, please pass it on. Wouldn't want the government reading our thoughts through the computer.
Have a nice day, Bob.

#86 You're crazy. Referencing that she might be manly in any way only causes one to think how low you must set the bar for a masculine structure so that you may be included.

Well we're off schedule some what so today we did 'Dianne'. See details on yesterdays comments.

We're going nuts with preparations for our big bike ride across the States, west to east. D-day is Monday the 12th. Yes, just around the corner. We hope to visit as many Crossfit affiliates as possible, and any other Crossfit folks along the way. We'll post here as often as possible, but Crossfit friends can check on our progress at http:/daveandbelindasbigbikeride.blogspot.com

Biked to/from work (24km)
:45 to, :30 home

In what zip code was this picture taken? I'm looking to relocate my family to a new area (with Crossfit nearby), and I love the houses in the background!

#67
is this the same Robert Baer who said:
"For the record, I don't believe that the World Trade Center was brought down by our own explosives, or that a rocket, rather than an airliner, hit the Pentagon. I spent a career in the CIA trying to orchestrate plots, wasn't all that good at it, and certainly couldn't carry off 9/11. Nor could the real pros I had the pleasure to work with."

Dude, even your source doesn't believe it.

hey guys this is actually my first comment on crossfit so i'm feeling good about it..

alright im 17 years old weigh 158lbs and am about 5'11 or 6'0. I've been doing crossfit for about 1month and a half and this is my first time doing frann. my time was 1 hour exactly.. could anyone honestly tell me if this is a good time for me or really bad :S jaja :P it was the thrusters that were killing me i did the pullups pretty fine. anyways thanks for the opinions and comments :)

Here's an interesting quote from "A Better War", by Lewis Sorley, which is highly relevant not just to the War on Terror, but to an accurate understanding of the history of the last fifty years:

"When, early in 1972, another major enemy offensive had loomed [I will note parenthetically that this was a tank-led, blitzkrieg-inspired conventional invasion of the South by the North], Abrams [the commanding General]--respond/ing to a question from the Koreans, gave his view of the purpose. 'The Communists insist on these things: this government must be overthrown; all troops, all aircraft, all navy belonging to the United States, and all equipment, must be withdrawn from Indochina [note: that would include Cambodia]; there must be no military or economic assistance by the United States to South Vietnam. That's what they insist on. So--how do you get that? You go to the weakest thing in the whole setup, the will of the American people, and the will of the American government. And if they can capture Ben Het, or Kontum City, for a week, and maybe Cam Lo and threaten Quang Tri, the press and they all will say Vietnamization has failed. And the last few remaining members of Congress who support continuing economic assistance would have lost their faith. So, I think that's what it's aimed at.' When that offensive was thrown back with heavy loss to the invading Communists, they had once again shifted their emphasis to the negotiating front, and to that most important front of all--the American political scene."

I will continue in the next post. Long posts seem to bring out the filter demons.

Now, to segue back to today's topic, what is interesting to me, and a subject of much pondering on my part, is just how wrong the Left got it back then, and how the lesson they took away was that violence never works to generate peace.

In 1972, new forms of rice, couple with aggressive land reform and effective pacification, had led to widespread (if relative) prosperity and peace througout South Vietnam. You could drive nearly anywhere in the country without protection or escort. It was safer nearly everywhere than most American cities.

Yet, this was the same period in which the Left had effectively portrayed our efforts there as somehow opportunistic or even imperialistic. North Vietnam invading South Vietnam with tremendous financial and military support from Red China and the Soviet Union. That was imperialism. America expending money and lives defending a nation under sustained and organized attack by Communismm, and working hard to leave: that was an effort at containing an aggressive and violent dogmatism, which openly sought world domination.

Yet that war is remembered today in the calls to "End the War". We see the same bumper stickers: "There is no good war or a bad peace". This is hogwash. And it only continues because the truth of what happened in Vietnam--which we all know is to this day the rallying cry of the Left--is not known. It is not known, because the truth will not support the notion that violence doesn't help, and is therefore ignored.

People who truly believe that all war is bad had a hard time on 9/11. We were attacked without warning and without provocation. The net lesson Bush took away was that small ideas in the hands of determined ideologues could lead to large scale death and destruction. The calculus changed to include the notion that some people could not be allowed the possibility of acting out, since the potential for devastation was so large.

We didn't find any WMD's in Iraq. The research may have been moved, or it may have been on hold, pending a cessation of inspections. Regardless, the fundamental character of Saddam Hussein never changed, and his potential to continue doing what he had always done was substantial. When we invaded, he was in the early stages of acting as a facilitator of terrorism, such as by sponsoring conferences. Obviously, he was also funding Palestinian terrorism directly as well.

It is likely true the Iran even then was the larger evil, but the fact of the matter is that where we did have a legal case to go into Iraq, we did not to go into Iran. Yet, we are now well positioned on their flanks, if at some point they do something that increases our range of options.

Thus, the overall rationale for war with Iraq was good. There was no connection between 9/11 and Hussein. But there was a connection in the thought process which now had to include catastrophic terrorism. A paradigm shift was necessitated.

The Left, in order to justify continued passivity in the face of attacks on American soil, had a problem. There was an attack, and the response was therefore rational. Violence was justified, certainly with respect to Afghanistan, and in my view Iraq.

It simply could not stand that violence was being met with violence. This was emotionally unacceptable, because it gave the lie to nearly everything they "stood" for. So, the myth had to be created that in fact the attacks didn't happen. That enabled them to continue with their pipe-dream understandings of the world, and in fact in the process accomplish as well an undermining of faith in the Bush Administration.

And the same people who claimed the war in Iraq couldn't be won, that the surge wouldn't work, that they hated us and always would, has given way to the simple insistence that the war be ended by any means necessary. They want it over because they are tired of it, and they are tired of it because we are clearly making progress, and using both force and moral clarity to achieve it, both of which they hate with every fiber of their beings.

We need to be clear: some 275,000 South Vietnamese were killed fighting in 1974-1975, and another 65,000 murdered in cold blood by execution as a direct result of our failure to retain the gains we made at great cost, and after initial failure, in our war there. Westmoreland screwed up. So did Johnson. Abrams fixed it, then Kissinger and others torpedoed his efforts by signing a peace that allowed the North to keep troops (which were there illegally) in the South. They did this because of public pressure generated by lies.

340,000 people dead. If my math is correct, if we posit an average height for a Vietnamese soldier of 5'3", that makes about 340 miles of bodies, if laid end to end. That was the "accomplishment" of the "Peace and Love" generation. That was what they fought for.

And the same logic they used then is what they are trying to use with respect to Iraq. War is never the answer. Violence never solves anything. Peace now.

This is clearly the logic of Barack Obama, and to a lesser extent Hillary Clinton. It is my hope we can learn from our lessons, and use actual morality and decency in our foreign policy, instead of hyperinflated rhetoric denuded of substantive thinking.

It just occurred to me one could quite easily have laid a string of bodies from the front door of the New York Times to the front door of the Washington Post.

Makes you wonder, doesn't it, just why our thought leaders are our leaders? They don't seem to learn their lessons. Perhaps that is because learning requires humility.

One more quote, from South Vietnamese Ambassador Bui Diem:

"The manner in which the United States took its leave was more than a mistake. It was an act unworthy of a great power, one that I believe will be remembered long after such unfortunate misconceptions as the search and destroy [implemented by Westmoreland, discarded by Abrams] strategy have been consigned to footnotes."

Reading history--which is say trying to understand the actual causes of war and peace--is so often something between tragedy and horror. Certainly that is the case with respect to Vietnam. We forget its lessons at our peril.

Holy nice job Barry. Spot on.

I especially like the quote from Bui Diem, it tells exactly the entire story: We gave our word, and if we quit when we give our word, people will die, and nobody will ever believe us again. I mean crap, look what happened to the Kurds after the first Gulf War, they got slaughtered because we didn't come to their aid because it would have been political suicide for George Bush Senior, because the liberals would have lambasted him for it.

Plus, look at the list of nations that has and is supporting us in Iraq and Afghanistan, if we quit, how likely are they to ever stand behind us again when we need them?

Here's another quote:

"In the wake of the defeat came untold further misery. Two decades after the North Vietnamese conquest [NVA} Colonel Bui Tin said sorrowfully, freedom in Vietnam 'remains a distant dream' [remember that the whole rallying cry of the Left was the "liberation" of South Vietnam from colonial imperialism]. Not many who had opposed American involvement in the war were heard from when this dreadful suffering followed the enemy victory, but one who spoke out with decency and regret was William Shawcross. 'It seemed to me then, and still seems to me today', he wrote long years after the end, 'that those of us who were opposed to the American effort in Indochina should be humbled by the scale of suffering inflicted by the Communist victors--especially in Cambodia, but in Vietnam and Laos as well."

Here's a quote from a former Viet Cong Colonel, who was naive enough during the war to believe what the American Left believes to this day: "All that talk about 'liberation' twenty, thirty, forty years ago, all the plotting, and all the bodies, produced this, this impoverished, broken down country led by a gang of cruel and paternalistic half educated theorists."

We need to be clear: the Left does not have a good reason to leave Iraq before our commanding Generals say it's ready.

The Iraqis don't want it. They don't want to be "liberated" from the protection the American military can uniquely provide.

By and large, our soldiers don't want it. Those on the ground that I've seen on record overwhelmingly support finishing what we started in the correct manner.

The problem is not money. The costs of Universal Healthcare and other leftist boondoggles--such as Obama's plan to feed the world by giving money to the UN--easily dwarf the money remaining to be spent.

The only people who want this are leftists, and they want it because they hate war--particularly successful wars which show what the intelligent application of force can accomplish--and they hate George Bush because he is "dumb" enough to still believe there is a difference between right and wrong.

The "victory" of the Left in engineering the defeat of South Vietnam, which associated millions of deaths in the region--this is what they consider good. The heroic efforts of our soldiers to prevent that from happening--that is what they consider bad.

Those are the ethics of those who oppose at every turn our efforts to defend America. That is the actual content of moral relativism: nihilism.

Wow! So much uber-rightwinged-ness (?), so little time. The whole concept of the "domino theory" that led us into veitnam fueled by the false-flag attack in the gulf of tonkin were right-wing, war-hawk mistakes. Yes, Kennedy's/lbj's foreign policy was very modern right-wing...and it was misbegotten...period. Just like in iraq today, the whole notion was ill-conceived and driven by fear. Fearful people and rational decision making? Not so much. We chose to invade in both situations. This not "defending America". I know, i know, Bush/Cheney told you otherwise. Unfortunately for us all they, as usual were wrong. Just man-up and admit mistakes and maybe you won't get fooled again.
I challenge Mr. and Mrs. Glassman (for whom i have the utmost respect and admiration for all the great info you have compiled/provided concerning fitness) to post articles from "The Nation" magazine or other reputable sources which you may consider "liberal". The continuous barrage of conservative BS, which is frankly ruining the america envisioned by the founding fathers, seems to be nothing more than mental masturbation for misguided people (*cough* Barry Cooper *cough*).
If you can't even give other viewpoints a FAIR shake before mischaracterizing them, that's ok ... its ok if you want to be a pussy! ;)

#105: Ameriswede,

In my world the pussies are the ones who ignore pages of content to repeat propagandistic memes I have just refuted decisively.

C'mon son, let's play. We got another day and a half. Why don't you act like you graduated from grade school and put together something that looks like what your teachers taught you?

(yawn) Frankly kid, your monotheistic, stereotypically reactionary diatribes coupled with your tired, McCarthy-esque zeal bores me... feel free to continue the mental masturbation and wallow in your research-free comfort zone. If i need to know "your" opinions or versions of history, i'll just consult the works of Limbaugh(the druggie), Coulter(the crossdresser), Hannity(insanity), or Kristol(gag) and cut out the middle man.

now i'm off to overhead squat and Fran.

Beautiful Jamie! Got a kick out of bumping into you and Shari the other day. See you at the games:)

re #105, #107, Ameriswede:

Dude, you've got a lot to learn about how the world works. "The conservatives are ruining the America envisioned by the founding fathers"... you're hilarious, you know that?

I don't know why I'm bothering to reply to you since you apparently don't have an ounce of sense in your brain, but I'll try.

Let's review:

Socialism/Communism - failed (East Germany vs West Germany, North vs South Korea, USSR vs USA, etc)
Secular Humanism - failed (Nazi Germany, USSR, etc)
Pacifism - failed (1931 - 1939 appeasement of Germany, Japan, & Italy by European & Asian powers, which led to the deaths of 55 million people)

You get the point. Grow a spine and look at the way the real world works bud, because it sure doesn't work like your liberal drabble says it does.

Contrary to popular liberal belief, you can't just wish away bad people, you can't just throw money at the inner city and think that'll fix it, and you can't just throw money at schools and think they'll get better. Oh, and you can't just tax a country and think that'll make it wealthy.

RE-read #107 1 more time there Matty. Sounds like you need a de-zombification too.

Too much Fox news can actually make you retarded. The proof is in the mirror.

Ameriswede: you do realize those quotes were all from a well documented book by Lewis Sorley? They were verbatim from: an ex-Vietcong, an ex-NVA regular, a South Vietnamese Ambassador, and a former anti-war activist. All of them support my position.

You have marshalled no evidence whatsoever while hypocritically accusing me of the same.

I will address the following to a general audience. The current crop of anti-war protesters grew out of the fertile manure left by the Left in the 60's. As Ameriswede is documenting for us in front of our very eyes, my point stands that the Left considers our failure to adhere to the committments we made to South Vietnam--which resulted in regional genocide, and literally millions of deaths--to be success.

This is very literally what they consider good. Ameriswede, to the extent that his incoherent rants can be decoded, is arguing this. He is arguing that the deaths of millions of Indochinese was good, because America left Vietnam, and we were the only evil presence there.

Leftists don't care how many people in other countries die if they can generate an opportunity to feel and express self righteous outrage. These f-ing hippies wear love beads, but what they create is mass death. And the only cloak they can use to cover this obvious and inescapable fact is constantly accusing conservatives of what they actually intend, such as the subversion of the Constitution, support for racism, economic blindness, and warmongering.

I invoked the image of 340 miles of corpses. Ameriswede decided that nothing after roughly 1967 mattered, which is what most Leftists do. The truth kicks them in the tail and they don't like it.

I woke up early this morning and was pondering this. The Leftist mantra is that nothing is worth fighting for. They will tell you that if the stars are in alignment, and the moon just right, they will fight, but historically this simply isn't the case.

If nothing is worth fighting for, then nothing is sacred--or example the dignity and honor of the United States. If we define the sacred as a stable source of meaning, then what has happened is life has been rendered devoid of stable sources of meaning as a result of what amounts to a principled stance of cowardice.

Seen in the light of day, this is by the standard of all that we have historically valued completely contemptible and beyond the pale of what mainstream Americans are willing to accept.

Yet we see in our Universities and institutions of so-called higher learning the studied cultivation of cowardice, as expressed in the deliberate inculcation of moral ambiguity, intellectual fogginess, and abuse of thought itself.

This culminates in a phenomena like the mainstreaming of a radical like Barack Obama, a long term friend of men like William Ayers, who said in 1970 ''Kill all the rich people. Break up their cars and apartments. Bring the revolution home, kill your parents, that's where it's really at,'' (I will note parenthetically that he says he doesn't remember saying that; nor can anyone find him then or now formally repudiating that statement, merely contextualizing it as "humor", humor his group acted on through bombings and murder).

The sacred, the search for a shared, stable source of meaning is the foundation of Greek tragedy. More than merely entertainment, Greek tragedies were intended to be educational instruments working to foster the virtue of the Greek people. They showed the evils that arose from undiagnosed errors of character, which they termed "hamartias", which I believe best translates as flaws.

You take a stable system, then run it through a period of time with an informational defect. Terrible things result, and the audience feels the terror of what is possible, and reinforces in their own consciousness a determination to master themselves and their passions according to a shared sense of moral virtue. The system, in reality, is strengthened.

However, if you deduct a shared source of meaning, and portray the same set of events (Greek tragedy included most major crimes anyone can imagine) you have created not a tragedy, but a Horror film. You have created a situation in which evil follows you, chases you down, and there is no rhyme or reason as to who lives and who dies.

This is what you get when you cease being willing to stand, fight, and when necessary die on principle. You get the filth that permeates every video store, and every video section of every Wal-Mart.

I very literally see a connection between movies like Hostel and our decision to fail in Vietnam. Do I need to ask what Eli Roth's politics are? Could they possibly be anything but extremely liberal? I doubt it seriously. I trust he opposes our war in Iraq, which he no doubt dubs "the real horror". Maybe I'm wrong, but it's very unlikely.

Actually, I am quite correct. I developed a thesis, and tested it with Google. Herewith a quote from a man who created two films consisting nearly entirely of torture scenes culminating in murder, intended by his own admission for "teenagers and 18-25 year olds":

“People are getting killed for real in Iraq, so how can these people get upset about violence in a movie?”

He holds nothing sacred.

Here is a quote, finally, from an American who was part of our effort to win peace and prosperity for South Vietnam:

"We could withdraw from Southeast Asia. To do so would be to abandon everything we have been fighting and dying for in Vietnam. To do so would be to close for all time the book of our American heritage."

What he was saying was that such a contemptible course of action would permanently change the face of our American culture, and he was right. The split between our common sense moral tradition which most of us rightly value, and the sacralization of cowardice masked as moral ambiguity which characterizes most of Obamas behind the scenes supporters--like George Soros, whose money was critical to his Senate campaign--has continued to this very day.

There is no moral ambiguity with respect to the War on Terror. There are people out there who want to destroy us, and anyone who supports us. They are quite capable of doing in reality all the things Eli Roth put in his films. We are protecting the Iraqis, Afghanis, and others from them, and to do other than complete our mission would be another step towards hell on Earth.

It's out there, believe me. If you want evidence, read up on the Cambodian genocide, which we permitted to happen. Only good people fighting for good keep the demons of alienation, slavery, and random death at bay.

Tom,
You can post your objection to our KB swing every few months or so and we’ll continue to do what we’ve long done with you – humor, patronize, and ultimately, ignore.

I fully understand that we don’t swing the KB the way Pavel taught you. You are a KB/DragonDoor/RKC/Pavel zealot. (I’ve watched video of you demonstrating CPR, compressions and breathing, on a KB). Of course you don’t like our “squatting leg drive motion”. It’s contrary to the teachings of your sensei and you can’t squat. I’ve seen you try.

If you were to put the KB down for six months and run, do some pull-ups, and work with a BB, etc., you’d come back considerably fitter and a better RKC. You’d also have a greater appreciation for the CF charter of increasing work capacity across broad time and modal domains. Why do you think CF’ers have done so very, very well in KB competitions (absolutely dominated)? I know why!

The KB is a tool. CF is a fitness program. I’ve got an analogy to offset yours, ridiculous as it is. Your griping at our not swinging the KB the way you do is like the hammer complaining that the house is a lousy tool for banging nails.

Your terminology for back posture desperately needs fixing. I don’t think you know what a fulcrum is. Jamie’s posture is fine as is her stance. We’ve never done a cert at CF North. Her head “poking through” has nothing at all to do with compensation, and my calculations were used to demonstrate average power not force. Finally, I’ve never heeded your advice, but arduously avoided it.

You’re a good dude, Tom, but you need more training and education before offering advice on these pages.

Interesting stuff Barry, really. However, your generalizations are your weakness; especially concerning "leftism" and my affiliation with it. I am simply saying that the lesson of Veitnam is, like iraq, it was a mistake. Now post another ridiculous rant attacking another strawman.

#115: I have shown clearly, in the assessments of all participants in the conflict, that all of them consider our failure to have been their failure: to have been bad for them, to be clear.

I have shown clearly that millions died needlessly when we cut off military and economic assistance to the South with no reason other than that leftists like you demanded it. That loss of support doomed millions to death, and millions more to slavery which to varying extents continues to this day.

Your response is to repeat yourself. I could teach a parrot to debate as well as you are doing here.

Again, I will point out to a general audience, if anyone is still reading, that this is quite literally the level of analysis leftists engage in, and this applies from top to bottom. If he were ever to be pushed, Obama or Hillary could not go any deeper than this.

This fact is obscured by the fact that leftist intellectuals keep up a continuous patter, like rain, of prose which could make sense if it were founded on any actual facts and logic. However, the process is to obscure things so much using big words, conflicted and complicated arguments, and repetition, that no clear argument emerges which could be refuted.

Ameriswede is making no effort to offer a thesis supported by facts and logic. He has simply confined himself to the repetition of well worn themes he has read somewhere, and repeated like a parrot.

Squack, squack: bush lied people died. bush lied people died.

squack squack: Vietnam war bad Vietnam war bad

squack squack: no blood for oil no blood for oil

still waiting for reasons why Veitnam and Iraq were good ideas in the first place....

re #whatever - #117:

Ameriswede, listen, you've offered nothing but "you're all right wing morons", you present no clear points, except that we're all apparently brainwashed.

So here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to put the keyboard down, and stop bothering to respond to your pathetic self. Maybe I'll spend some time getting "de-zombified"... wooooooo...

Wait a minute... WAIT A MINUTE!!! Ameriswede, after listening to your brililant reasoning, I think I just found a picture of you from an Anti-War rally:

http://www.protestwarrior.com/gallery/lefties/2.jpg

Man, for the longest time I couldn't figure out who that was, thanks for clearing it up for me.

#117: I will happily provide that information. First, though, can we agree that the manner in which we left South Vietnam was, as the South Vietnamese ambassador put it, an "act unworthy of a great power"?

Will you agree that the unnecessary murder of millions is a bad thing and not a good thing?

Sorry to put you on the spot. I know that's a tough question for you.

barry

Thanks for doing some research and making a point, which everyone should do and think about. However, I had a few things that I strongly disagree with you about..
1) you are so concerned with characterizing anyone with whom you disagree "liberal" then try to paint everyone as some sort of ridiculous, ignorant hippy. The whole reason you are being called a right wing nut is the fact that you try to polarize everything...you vs. them, right vs. left, conservative vs. liberal. I think your argument would be much stronger if you just stuck with the point you are trying to make, instead of trying to say everyone who disagrees is a leftist crazy. Also, arguments are a lot stronger when you acknowledge the other side, but explain in rational terms why you disagree.
2) You quote quite a lot, but I hate to tell you, I dont really think what one person thinks as that important, because I could find a quote with something that disagrees..for instance, you quote an american who was part of vietnam...that does nothing for me, I know vietnam veterans who felt the whole thing was ridiculous, and if i quoted them im sure you would care as much as i care about your quote..also, the fact that you made an entire argument, then say that because you got information from a book makes your stance correct isnt very effective..anyone can read a book, and there are books on both sides..
3)i pretty much disagree with most of what you wrote, but im not going to spend the next 3 hours researching and footnoting...if your gonna make a point, make it and let your information speak for itself, rather then try to just assume everyone else is wrong...

#120: the way I look at it, leftists are the people who are causing problems, but not trying to solve them. Conservatives and moderates are people who are trying to solve problems, and for that reason sometimes make mistakes. This is inevitable for anyone actually trying to do something concrete.

Anyone who says "I could quote someone, but I won't" is not serious. You are not trying to solve a problem. You are trying to equate your own position with mine for the simple reason that you hold your position and I hold mine, and you believe I owe you the courtesy of not questioning you.

However, our positions are not equal. I am right and you are wrong until the point where you deliver something other than an abstract "what if":

"What if, hypothetically, I could make a case, and you couldn't refute it? Then I would be right, wouldn't I? Then you would cry and gnash your teeth and do whatever frustrated right wing people do. That would be cool. I could do it, too, I just don't feel like it right now, and won't for the rest of my life. That doesn't mean I couldn't though, and never forget it."

barry
well, if you are so interested, here is what I think. I think the war in Iraq was beside the point. I think our leaders didnt plan anything, other then to just go in there. In my first round in Iraq all we did was patrol the streets, and all the political leaders of america thought that just telling them about democracy would somehow create some system where everyone would fall in line with whatever we wanted them to do. Ill tell you something, they didnt give a sh%t about democracy, they wanted food and water, something none of our leaders (military included) had any notion of. and those animosities are still prevalent today, you think we will ever create some sort of pure stability? as soon as we leave they are gonna tear each other to pieces, you know why those sunni freedom fighters are arming themselves? yeah, they wanna get rid of al qaeda...but they also wanna make sure that they can slaughter as many shiites as they can once we leave...but how long should we stay there..forever? Im sick of this country thinking it is our responsibility to save everyone if they wont even help themselves, and try to fix their own problems.. if the iraqis I knew really cared about their country, then yeah, I would be much more willing to help them out. but it was few and far between that I met an Iraqi that really wanted to fix their situation, and weren't still bogged down in their sectarian animosities..most of the soldiers we interacted with enlisted so they can get some weapons and i guarantee that all they want is to even the score once we leave...and i for one dont feel like keeping my boys in some country that is setting itself up for a civil war..

and lets look at our reputation now...europe hates us, make fun of them all you want, but they are progressing much faster then america gives them credit for..our mid east plan is faltering, iran's reputation has grown considerably, while hezbollah is on the verge of taking over lebanon, we for some reason keep arming saudi which is a theocratic nightmare that every now and then pretends they are our friend to get some money and weapons. nobody fears us in the region anymore, cause they know we are bogged down in two wars...Ohhh, and we diverted all our focus from afganistan to spending a trillion dollars rebuilding some country that doesnt even have the decency to offer our military cheap oil when they are exporting a million barrels a day....

plus look at any legitimate military theorist..striking your enemy and defining your objectives are two keys to any military situation. what is our goal now in iraq?? there is none, other then some vague promises of winning (whatever that means)...i think our afghanistan policy was sound, because it targeted al qaeda and the taliban that harbored them, but we started ignoring them once we invaded iraq...now im going back to afganistan cause we didnt finish it up when we had the chance in 2002...

so yea, im not gonna give you a quote cause i dont think its effective, and you would ignore it anyways...and it isnt a stupid conservative vs. liberal conspiracy, its about making sound choices..im not liberal, im not conservative, i try to think rationally about why i believe certain things but i take the time to try to understand the other point of view..its frustrating when people just stick with some ideas just cause that is what they are supposed to think....what are you talking about, making an irrefutable case?? this isnt a math problem, i know what ive seen, I dont rely on the news that much other then following the basic developments in the world...and your point that "I am right and you are wrong until the point where you deliver something other than an abstract "what if." Just because someone doesnt argue with you doesnt mean you are right, thats the dumbest thing ive heard...I dont know how many times I've heard a ridiculous theory like America destroyed its own twin towers, but I normally dont argue back cause I dont even wanna get started..so that means they are right, because I dont argue with them? and why would I "would cry and gnash your teeth and do whatever frustrated right wing people do"...what?? you make no sense, I have no idea what your paragraph even means anyways...

so yeah..call me liberal if for some reason that makes you feel more comfortable with yourself..

ohhh, i just got your last paragraph...you are writing as if i am talking?? it took me a while..

Unclear if anyone will read this, but I'll post it anyway.

There are a lot of parallels between the War in Iraq--which is more properly termed a military enforcement of peace in most places nowadays--and the War in Vietnam.

There was a time when support for the Vietcong was quite prevalent throughout the countryside, and at that time--let's say roughly 1962--if a genuinely free election had been held, Ho Chi Minh might have been able to implement his plan to free the workers by enslaving them without bloodshed.

However, they used terror. They assassinated people, kidnapped people, threatened villages, and extorted money and protection. They bombed civilians indiscriminately, and attacked villages that were unarmed with mortars and rockets.

Over time this--plus the viable alternative offered by Abrams implementation of the rural pacification program--converted former enemies to loyal allies, and formerly brutalized areas into peaceful havens.

This is quite similar to what has happened in Iraq. We initially misread the lay of the land, which created opportunities for our enemies. However, we figured it out, and have been successful in making Iraq more peaceful and free than it has been in a long time, possibly ever.

Our Generals, as much as anyone, want to draw down troops. We can do that when the Iraqis are ready to govern and protect themselves.

The Vietnamese were in fact largely ready when we left them. However, they still needed our air support, naval support, and economic support. They did not ask us to fight for them, merely support them. We refused. Congress cut off aid not just for South Vietnam, but for the region, and passed a law in effect forbidding the President to lift a finger regardless of what happened.

Had we done the thing right, we would have spent little more money than we did, lost very few more lives, and saved millions of needless deaths in the region.

If we leave Iraq the wrong way--in a hurry, and with strong restrictions on supporting the government in the likely event of renewed hostilities--we will see large scale bloodshed there too.

This would be unworthy of a great power.

Barry

Finally, your last post was the most rational and realistic one yet. When you stick to the subject at hand and let the information speak for itself, you make a much stronger point then turning this into a liberal-conservative issue. I have a different viewpoint on many of your points however, but this is a type of debate that maybe we could both learn something.

Vietnam - how many dictators did we install in south vietnam? Ngo Dinh Diem was worse then anyone, but just because he said he did not like communism we supported him anyways..he massacred his own people, refused to hold fair elections, and the entire country of Vietnam was turned from american ideals. He even led a military operation against buddhist monks, who were "communist." No wonder the insurgency in Vietnam grew so much, as well as hatred of the US. Also, if our goal was to liberate the Vietnamese and "win their hearts and minds", then why was a core tenet of our strategy carpet bombing, primarily in south vietnamese land? we were killing the very people we were supposedly protecting.

I will try to read up on the end game of Vietnam, im a little unfamiliar with that (ie, all aid was cut off, etc.) I was under the impression that the South Vietnamese weren't even close to prepared when we left, but I will read up more on that subject sometime next week.

Many of the dicatators in both the North and South were elected, and a large portion of those countries leaned towards communism because of a poor economic situation. By the end of the war, this was a battle of ideologies between America and the Soviet Union, and Vietnam was caught in the mix. Is the massacre of people sad, yes absolutely. But is it America's responsibility to send our troops in to save the day every time a country makes a bad decision? I don't know, but I think if you set yourself up to do that, there is going to come a point that you can no longer take care of your own country, because you are so bogged down being a policman everywhere else. And to be honest, I see some good indications of that happening now. We have lost our credibility in the Middle east, and I think it is getting worse.

I could go on about Vietnam for a while, but again, this is a crossfit page that nobody will read. As for Iraq, I will tell you real quickly what I think. I think that yes, in the past 8 months or so, Petraeus has done a good job of quelling the violence. However, I think he has also made a very dangerous gamble the way he went about it, and in my opinion I think he is setting up Iraq for an unprecedented civil war (will it happen, I dont know..this is just my opinion from what I have seen). The Sunni awakening council is now pretty sufficiently armed, al-sadr has consolidated a lot of his power and has stepped in as the food and water provider when we failed to. Also, the iraqi military and police force is completely infiltrated by different sects and groups, and when outside of American supervision these soldiers will use their military training and equipment for whoever they owe their true allegiance. Despite all this, what and when exactly is the right time to leave iraq? Should we stay there for 300 years? 50 years? Forever?
You said earlier that we will leave when Iraq can support itself..Do you know how much pure corruption is in that government? They have been legislating for 5 years now, and can't even come up with basic compromises I have seen a 4 year old make. You should watch one of their parliamentary sessions...all they do is bi%ch at each other, henpeck and argue...they get nothing done, they havent for 5 years while their people were struggling, and I dont think they will for another 5 years. Just a few weeks ago Iraqi troops went in to fight some of al-Sadrs troops...and 1000 of the iraqi troops ran away!!! If it wasnt for the americans there to take their place, they would have been routed..and this is 5 years after the invasion, and their military and government has developed only a fraction as to where it should be by now (even by third world standards).
And trying to use our our current bases in Germany, Italy, Japan and Korea as a model for long term bases in Iraq is flawed, the dynamics are completely different. Should we continue to spend a billion dollars a day (or whatever we spend, I dunno), while some of own infrastructures crumble? I think it was you that mentioned that what we spend on the Iraq war is negligible, but I would definitely disagree. Money doesnt magically appear, and all the politicians have done is put off paying for the war for a few years. It isnt this generation that is paying for it, it will be paid for 20 years down the line.

I don't know how many times ive heard one of the politicians coming to visit us at some base and tell us, "we are here to support you, when it is time, we will bring you home." people will ask things like, well, what exactly is winning, what do we have to do and we will do it, when, what is the objective, what do we have to achieve.. "we will know when it is time." when you fail to establish your goals you end up in the situation we are in, wallowing in some country that doesnt even take care of its own problems.

So thats my opinion, maybe we just have fundamental differences in the way we percieve things, but your last post was something I could work with and understand. We do have points that we agree on (I think) as well as fundamental differences. But I think the polarization of every subject has to stop, or America is going to tear apart at the seams. I think its time for everyone to look at a subject rationally and make an opinion, but be willing to learn a new thing or two.

Barry, I'm reading still :)

Matt,

Read "A Better War". Lewis Sorley.

He doesn't talk about "Rolling Thunder", which was Johnson's B-52 campaign against the North. It was a joke. They didn't bomb strategic targets, and they didn't bomb the Russian made SAM batteries while they were being set up, reasoning, I'm told, that they would "never use them."

Real bombing was Linebacker 2. Nixon got serious for at least a minute, and it showed--in my view, clearly--that had Johnson done that, the whole war would have been over before it began.

I will add that the Vietnam War can only be understood as the efforts of South Vietnam to avoid an invasion by the North, motivated not by nationalism, but by a desire to spread Communism. The people terrorizing Vietnamese villages? Most of them from the North.

The whole logistical process is very clearly documented in Sorley's book. After about 1968 they knew the units, numbers, and destinations with reasonably good accuracy.

heh, i step out for a bit and the conversation expands. Thanks to "zo" for taking the time to get down in the mud and wrestle a bit with these misguided fellow americans... and for doing it much more eloquently. Don't really have the time or patience for them.

signed, Ameriswede proud son of a two-tour, Veitnam war marine

Thanks for supporting me in my point that you do in fact consider millions of useless deaths to be good, and America's efforts to prevent them to be bad. Your dad must be so proud to have raised a son with such a straight and simple moral compass.

Since I'm posting, I will add to Matt that the simple fact of the matter is that you don't know what our generals know. You create a false choice between a 50 year stay and leaving tomorrow. The clear lesson of Vietnam is that if we let the professionals do their jobs, and listen to them, that they are well able to manage even the most difficult situations.

However, if you think you can deliver intelligent commentary from behind a TV or computer, or even as a theater vet only exposed to a small amount of the data available, you are wrong. Simple as that.

Barry

Thank you for telling me what I know. I laugh, as you say "if you think you can deliver intelligent commentary from behind a TV or computer," what exactly are you doing you idiot? I see you can't meet someone on equal grounds, so your argument then goes to just saying im wrong..thanks, how enlightening talking to you. Yes, Generals have a broader sense of the data but I know what I have seen as well. And where do you think any respectable general gets his view of the war...from the troops fighting it. No general I have seen has picked up a rifle and done a midnight raid, its the people on the ground that do the work, something you have never experienced, which is obvious as you talk about theoretical models that you think war and morality are based upon. You're a joke, I love how you talk about people regurgitating knowledge and then say "you cant refute this IT'S IN A BOOK!!!!" Your problem is you think you can pick up a book, read it and experience a war in an afternoon. You are the coward, keep making your stupid opinions while better men then yourself go out and do the work you are afraid to do.

See the problem I have with you isn't your reasoning, I have had many good discussions with people about the war where we disagreed one hundred percent, but at the end of the conversation we got up, shook hands and walked away having learned something new..Get over yourself Barry, your hypocrisy is astounding. You are so full of yourself that you dont learn anything, you think one fu$#in book is gonna answer everything...I encourage someone to be well read when they talk about something, but its obvious you have no personal reasoning skills "blah blah blah, its IN A BOOK!!!!"

ohhh...and if you want a quote to get your socks off (by your 8 or so quotes, its obvious you relate well to borrowing other people's opinions) ill leave this one, by Army Chief of Staff Harold K. Johnson noted, "if anything came out of Vietnam, it was that air power couldn't do the job." Obviously it cant be refuted because "its IN A BOOK!!!!"

and why are you arguing with Matt?? he is supporting you, pay attention you amateur.

zo thank you for your commentary i assure you it will receive every bit of attention it merits

Barry, just 1 more thing... and this goes for any of you other poor slobs still reading this that support this disaster in iraq ... if you believe we are in iraq for all the right reasons and trust YOUR politicians so implicitly then take your happy ass down to the recruiter and sign-up. There are plenty of folks on their 3-4 tour over there that would gladly trade places with you. Hurry along now, the services are having problems meeting recruiting quotas and have lowered their standards(Gee, i wonder why). Quit talking and start marching.

And there comes Ameriswede again with zero intelligence to add to the debate, except "you're all a bunch of morons, go sign up yourself..." No logic, no reasoning, just "you all suck".

THAT is the intellectual base of the left: "you suck". Well, I got news for you, history doesn't remember the critics.

As usual, Barry replies with some ignorant comment, because he can't stand knowing that perhaps someone else holds a different opinion. Why do you even bother talking, seriously? You had the potential to have a civil argument, in which we both could have learned something, but you chose to make your hypocritical comments that go no where. I feel bad for the people that have a viewpoint similar to yours, but are willing to actually think about their position and discuss it with some sort of rationality. They are cringing as you make them all look like idiots, you do more harm for their side then good. So yeah, just ignore my posts and keep living in your little idealistic dream world where you are the infalliable war knowledge expert. After all, you are the one that said in an earlier discussion, "we've only lost 4000 troops, its all relative." Come out and visit us at Ft. Bragg and tell us that, im sure lots of people would love to hear what you have to say.

i'm calling you out too Matt...its fitting your family name is from the birthplace of the same fascism that you seem to support so go on and sign-up or shut-up.

HA!!! Listen to this idiot... you're really scraping the bottom of the insult barrel now.

As soon as you graduate from grade school, let me know, maybe you'll be able to hold an intelligent conversation then.

Folks, here we witness the "tolerance" of the left, agree or we'll hurl insults at you all day... Classic.

i enjoy poking fun at hypocrites like you, Matt. ;) You signed up yet?

I just realized she looks evil in the middle picture, like she's ready to unleash some terrible power (which is true in a way).