M/6'0"/17/180

Ahh Thank God for that wonderful rest day :P
Unfortunately i missed out on yesterday WOD so i gotta catch up with replacing it with the rest :P

30 muscle-ups with a weighted vest... Makes me feel real good about not even being able to get one unweighted. :P

Pr'd on my early posting # tonight! i think my previous best was like 13th or 14th!

That's definitely not Jersey in the pic...

Now this looks like an interesting topic for rest day...

Jeff you are an animal.

a beach and two strong women...

Whoo-hoo, this'll be fun.

BTW, anyone doubting the power of CF and the existence of superior beings who walk among us, take a peek at post #196 (I think) from ystd, Kelly Moore doing a version of "Diane". >2x BW.

Yah, we are SO not worthy...

Awesome picture. I wish I was on that beach. Heaven... Word up BrianM. It's definitly not Rockaway either.

WOD at CrossFit South Brooklyn.. I decided to join the class tonight.

Run 1240m
150 push ups
300 squats
Run 1240m

35:20

the squats were the hardest part after Karen. The running wasn't so bad. YAY POSE

Awesome job Jeff! 30 muscle ups and w/a weighted vest - crazy!!

RE: "Geert Wilders Is No Right-Wing Populist"

Before my opinion let me say I have read the Koran even though I believe in the Bible because it is important to understand those that have opposing views.

I was not able to read the Fitna link but I am assuming from the first article that the movie is not to popular. actual content I am unsure of.

No matter what was said in the movie, there is never any call for violence because someone has a negative view of something you believe in. The problem in America right now is that certain lifestyles or religions that were unpopular years ago that are now popular are given free reign to mock, scoff and curse any that oppose them. Anyone daring to say they don't believe the same as them is crucified. I cannot say as a Christian that I dont believe in Islam without some worry of repercussion, but I am called an infidel for not worshipping Allah.

Granted there are now becoming two parties of "American peaceful Islams" who are impeccible citizens and bring much good to a community. several live on my street. Then there are "extremists". I would be careful to crucify Geert Wilders for his views before we examine whether or not he is actually referring to the Islamic people exploding themselves all over our soldiers or to the Islamic people in our country trying to make a better life for themselves without fear of persecution for their beliefs.

Last thought, I would never associate myself with someone referring to the Pope as the "antichrist" and "enbodiment of Satan" but at the same time I am still a Christian. I can understand being lumped into the same group of people who have no problem killing someone they dont like when really I believe in a Christ who died for everyone......everyone. John 3:16 people. Sorry for long post.

What a coincidince! I came back from the beach a few weeks ago and did some OHS's with big rocks! It was so much fun! Heres the pics:
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1211/4649241/9723418/311587529.jpg
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1211/4649241/9723418/311587527.jpg
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1211/4649241/9723418/311587522.jpg

Every month something in the C'Fit Journal stands out. Don't get me wrong, I love sand bag training and wrestling, but Andrew Thompson's "Characteristics of a World Class Trainee", is something special. I don't know Jason Dougherty, but I wish I did. The man sounds like a stud. Every sentence in that article made me feel something; kinda' like crossfit workouts do.
THANKYOU,
D.Price Akron,OH

Awesome job honey!!!! You're my hero!
-C

Joe-
did you happen to see that he has a 20# vest on?
C

Is that Carmel By the Sea? Looks like N. County Sand Diego.

The pics at the top and #13 Buddy's on the beach are all fantastic!

I can't even do one muscle up so I shouldn't even be commenting, but I felt like the guy doing 30 could have pushed it a little harder...... Usually the posted/WOD vids get me jacked up and ready to hit the gym cause the people are pushing themself so much, but not today. Odd. Its still more impressive than what I can do!!!!!! So Congrats!

#12 pelch, you're speculating about what is in the film - I've actually seen it and the film speaks for itself. It's not a masterpiece, but it's not intended to be. It's a bold criticism of the holy book of Islam and it is an indictment of Islamic culture. The backlash is due to the inability of many Muslims and so-called "multicultural" Europeans to absorb criticism.

Kurt Westergaard drew a cartoon that essentially called Muslims violent. The reaction? Death threats, and at least one very specific plot to murder him:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7240481.stm

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Salman Rushdie, Kurt Westergaard, and now Geert Wilders are absolutely correct. Islam is violent. Many individual Muslims are peaceful, reasonable human beings. The problem is, many others are not, and this group includes the majority of their top religious figures. Islamic culture needs to change.

Oh, and Theo van Gogh was also murdered for making a film calling Islam violent. He therefore proved his point.

wow, eva! went to SCC today and annie said you were in Baja, surfing. you luck lady! nice pic. =]

Smokin' picture. Well done ladies.

Wow Jeffery. Way to be. You are AMAZING... in many more ways than just 30 weighted MUs in a short time. Good job Brother.

#20 I totally agree. Anyone reading the Koran will understand no matter what kind of interpretation someone may spin, the ultimate goal is that all people are either a) converted or b) nonexistent. I wish I could have seen the movie to make more of an compelling arguement...my main point was that I should have the same right to say what I believe without fear of attack just as the Islamic people who get to say what they want.
Also, many religions believe that their specific religion is the only true way to heaven. fine. but Islam is the only one i can think of that considers it their duty to kill you if you make the "wrong choice"

I am just glad somebody said it. Bring it to a head. there is far to much intimidation and violence in Western societies right now because Islamists are pulling our punk cards.It is to the point the most liberal among us have thrown their own principles out the door in the face of violence (not suprising or even unique).

There is way to much pussy-footing around with this and somehow they are working the political correct angle into this as if they are oppressed, by us. Pathetic.

Bring it to a head. If making a little movie or a drawing causes riots and violent protests, then by all means do more of it.

An Open Letter To "Muscle & Fitness" From CrossFit East Bay 4-03-08
By Maximus on April 2, 2008 11:06 AM | Permalink | Comments (0)

Eric Velazquez, Senior Editor
Muscle & Fitness
21100 Erwin Street
Woodland Hills, CA
91367

cc: Peter McGough, Editor in Chief

Dear Mr. Velazquez,

I was recently startled by your direct response to my comments about your magazine on my blog, relating to your upcoming article on CrossFit. You challenged me to pick up your magazine, which I admit I have not read since the early 1990s, having switched to "Muscle Media 2000". I was pleasantly surprised by what I found. While the magazine, in my opinion, still has some way to go before I would want to pay for it, it certainly has moved somewhat towards the "Fitness" side of the masthead.

I read the April Issue, cover to cover, and look forward to reading the May issue, with the CrossFit article. I especially liked the article on Bruce Lee, and I agree that he is a good role model, at least insofar as his weight training methods are concerned. The routine said to "include squat, deadlift, clean and press and bench press" is what your should be recommending to your readers who are new, or intermediate to the iron game and want to put on muscle. In the words of Mr. Lee, so much of what is found in your magazine is still a "fancy mess" with too many assistance exercises and not enough heavy deadlift, squat, clean, press and bench, which is really what the beginner, even the beginner bodybuilder should be focused on. To quote Coach Greg Glassman, the founder of CrossFit, and the finest mind in fitness alive today, "Response to stimulus is systemic, not mechanical". Therefore the movements that have the greatest benefit, even in terms of building muscle are those with the greatest metabolic impact. To quote Coach again, "The most important criterion for exercise selection is neuroendocrine effect. Regardless of your sport or your fitness goals these moves are the shortest path to success."

Another article I was surprised and pleased to see was "Against All Odds" about a triathlete who came back from a coma to compete again. I also enjoyed what seems to me to be at least the beginning of a distinct CrossFit influence: Buddy Lee jumpropes, Turkish Get-Ups, weighted pull-ups, and proper push-up instruction. I also liked the Westside Barbell influence (chain bench press) and HIT article. The feats of strength were very interesting. As always, your nutritional advice is light years ahead of the mainstream. Still not perfect, but excellent.

While so much was good, as above, a lot of the exercise protocols in your articles, while better than nothing, seem like a waste of time. The 4x4 arms workout? Try googling "Arms Day at the L Street Gym" for thoughts on this sort of training. Actually there is nothing really wrong with this, but for all but the advanced, it seems like wasted effort. In the Turkish get-up, I would like to see a bit more weight, perhaps not a 135# barbell, but at least a 55# kettlebell, so you could see some effort. The sissy squat? Please, this movement would only be more silly if he was standing on a stability ball! The "Simply Huge" training plan was more fancy mess, even though it claimed to be simple! As Coach Mark Rippetoe, the world's foremost authority on the slow lifts states in "Practical Programming" the sort of plan outlined is paradoxically both "too much stimulus and not enough". I also found the bench press instruction to be substandard. You and your staff should, run, not walk, to find a copy of "Starting Strength" by Mark Rippetoe and read it cover to cover, along with "Practical Programming". This would do more for your magazine that anything else I can think of, since you are so focused on the slow lifts.

Finally, the near total lack of simple effective gymnastics moves is a shame. The muscle-up on the rings is the king of upper-body exercises, and if that is not hard enough for you, add a weight vest. Also the handstand push-up, knees to elbows and pistols are fantastic movements that anyone can benefit from developing. As you say in your blog you have to "cater to the majority of your readership", but I guarantee if you did a well-written article on the muscle-up you would get a very positive response.

To quote Coach again:

"A strength and conditioning regimen devoid of gymnastics practice and skills is deficient."

"Traditionally, calisthenic movements are high rep movements, but there are numerous bodyweight exercises that only rarely can be performed for more than a rep or two. Find them. Explore them!"

Maximus Lewin
Owner, CrossFit East Bay

800 Potter Street
Berkeley CA
94710

520 20th Street
Oakland CA
94612

I need to make that pic needs to be wallpaper on my computer!

Quote from the article:

"The label 'right-wing populist' resonates negatively today the same way that 'communist' did in the '50s and '60s, 'fascist' did in the '70s and '80s and 'climate change denier" does today.'"

Really? Are righties running scared? Are they claiming they're being persecuted? Are these pro-carbon martyrs the civil rights activists of the new millennium...."Warm at last, warm at last, thank Exxon the Almighty, we are warm at last."

What kind of a righty lets being called a climate change denier "resonate" with him? I thought the only resonating a righty did was in regard to his morning saussages and his latest rotary club pendant. Who knew they were so sensitive?

#28 I already did!

Prole, evidentally you did not get the nuance of being a called a Right-wing Populist. No suprise from a guy that rests his dooms-day scenario of a belief system around 'Big Oil" and "Haliburton".

"Nevermind the big ball of flaming fusion in the sky, The re is nothing to see here, movd along.. move along."

I am a bacon guy.

Rotary Club or Code Pink?? Which is actually good for society?

CCTJOEY: Man-Made Climate Change Denier, Pro-carbon Martyr and all around bacon fan.

Where is my fire hose?

Attn: Joe

I used to think the same thing that is was a shortcut to do singles and jump off at the top but if you think about it , the WOD asks you to do 30 Muscleups for time. If someone asks you to do one muscleup you go to full extension at the top and thats it, the person doesnt expect you to lower yourself down and hang there for a second or two.

In the real world the skill of being able to muscleup is usually for hanging under something and pulling yourself over it, not getting over it and then hanging back down underneath.

The technique of singles is fine by me. Not just fine, amazing with the vest on.

I just made up the last two workouts.

800m runs:

3:08
3:12
3:18
3:14

Was hoping for 3:00s but maybe next time.

5 rounds for time of

30 GHD Situps, 25 Back Extensions

10:55

BUT I totally cheated because my globo gym doesn't have a GHD so my situps were on a ball and back extensions were on one of those wanna-be GHDs. I'm sure my time would have been longer had I been doing the exercises as Rx'd.

Have recently traveled to various countries around the world, I have started to realize that Islamic terrorists are major problem in a large number of countries.

Not so much here. Muslims in America seem to be more integrated. I think that in countries where they are ghettoized and separated is where you see the most perpetual violence.

Here, watch the movie.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=29448_LiveLeak_Restores_Fitna&only

WFS unless you are Geert Wilders or work for LiveLeak

You ladies rock. An inspiration to us all....HOTTIES.

CCTJOEY: I am with you 100%. Wonder what Patton would have said about all the excuse making, hand wringing, apologists, running around these days. Radical Islam doesn't want to make friends. They want any excuse to kill us. Plain and simple.

Coach... If your listening...Can we please have a deadlift day? I expect a Crossfit Total on Friday, but i'm not ready for that. I haven't deadlifted since injuring myself on Linda and I need to work on deadlifts before the CF Total.

# 27 Maximus
Ive seen another one of these letters on yesterdays comments, and I was just wondering how this all started?

I watched Fitna last week and found it interesting. I applaud Wilders for making such a controversial short film but I won't be surprised to hear about him being killed soon. The problems arises when it somehow became unacceptable to called Islamic Extremists what they are. Though they aren't the majority of the Muslim community they seem to have the biggest voice. They're bred from these borderless communities, European Union, where they are allowed to create their own ghettos under Sharia law. If they want to live under this law in Muslim countries I can care less. But being part of Western culture means assimilation to its laws. They can keep their culture as long as they don't infringe upon the rights of the law abiding citizens, as seen in the rioting in France. Imagine Sharia law in Dearborn, Michigan. I would only hope Americans would stand against this. Especially American Muslims who seem to be mute in regards to fundamentalists. Living in this country requires assimilation to the Constitution and the laws that accompany. The difference between restricting a law and a culture have become muddled by the Socialist media and people at campuses such as mine. But all this bullshit is going to leave us dead.

rather you believe in science, or religion,,,,its up to you....proof, or mythology...
take you pick..Atleast someone Like Geert Wilders is calling the Muslims out on their holy book....Kill the infidels and other rhetoric....Even if you're a Christian, what is the Moral purpose pf killing one another, but then again, what does a Christian have to say about stoning a non-virgin woman to death on her wedding night, or an adulter, or a nonbeliver,,,,sometimes there is not moral absolute to any holy book...and who defines morality? God, other people in your upbringing, your family, your surroundings? Funny how the animal kingdom doesn't just kill one another without the intent on moving up the food chain....the animal kingdom doesn't build churches, they don't go on missions, some Christians say that Animals don't have souls....who are we to judge that animals don't have souls..According to the bible, the earth is 6,000 years old.....who in their right mind really believes that....do people really rise from the dead? do people really build ships to house millions of species, disperse them to all the continents evenly, then propogate to create the rest of humainty including Asians, anglos, south Americans, native americans, etc....biologically, I would imagine that this is impossible, to have one family-Noah- and create multiple races of people in less than 10,000 years...funny how some poele believe this works...would you rbiology teacher say this in possible???

Also check out:
Lord Raglan's Origin of Relgions...good book
and books writen by the following people..

Christopher Hitchens
Sam Harris
Richard Dawkins
Some links:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GFiy5dPwvY8
watch 1-8

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7jkBCEN1Igg
Watch 1-9

http://youtube.com/watch?v=TzZ2FWAF1H0&feature=related
Watch 1-3

You have your choice to believe or not,,,I am not here to preach one side or the other...but its worth looking at both sides....
I remain,
Rudy

#39 mikeman,

I saw the link to the M&F CF video here and posted a rather snarky comment on my CF Affiliate site:

http://www.crossfiteastbay.com/2008/03/crossfit-east-bay-rest-day-033.html

M/22/155#

After the 95lb thrusters, pullups, and 4 800m sprints, I went and punched myself in the face for an hour for reps. Then I cheese-grated my thigh and smashed lemons over the wound. I think this week is going well so far.

KELLY MOORE,

GREAT VIDEO! STRONG WORK!

ROBERT S.
TUCSON, AZ.

Rudy-Dallas -

If God is the Creator of the heaven and earth, as the Bible claims, then yes, I would say it is within His jurisdiction to define right from wrong (morality).

I am not responding to defend the Bible, it speaks for itself. But to correct a couple of points:

Animals do have souls. Soul life as defined in the Bible is breath-life. Plants do not have souls. But all have been put on earth for man's use. What animals do not have is the potential to be born again, to receive holy spirit from God.

The Bible does not claim the earth to be 6,000 years old, just the earth as we know it, along with the life that is currently on it, including mankind. "In the beginning" was obviously a long time ago, as evidenced by the fossil record, for one example. But something happened that took our all the life that previously existed, also seen in the fossil record. Genesis 1:2 then picks up with God putting things back in order, and then forming, making, and creating man.

Yes, people really do rise from the dead. What separates Jesus Christ from every other prophet (including Mohammad) is that he rose from the dead to die no more. It was by the resurrection that God distinguished Jesus Christ from all of the others as His son. Jesus Christ was seen in his resurrected body by over 500 people and his resurrection is a historical fact. Five hundred eyewitnesses would certainly hold up in any court of law today.

Noah did not need to house millions of species, just the ones that could not survive a world-wide flood.

Yes my biology teacher would say that is possible. After all, look at the diversity of human beings that populate the western hemisphere. All of this took place in about 500 years. Imagine what we will all look like in another 5,500 years. Hard to imagine for me.

Sorry for the day-late post, but I got to thinking about this last night...

Looking for a good sub for the GHSU, I sat down at a lat pulldown machine and cranked the kneepad down, trapping my knees. I then reached back for the floor then up to the weight stack -- sub for GHSU.

My question is whether this was somehow a "cheat". Does trapping your body at the knees/thigh make the exercise easieer than trapping at the ankles/feet? The fulcrum was in the same place (buttocks), but was I able to incorporate extra/different muscles by locking in at the knees?

Extremism in whatever form it takes should never be accepted or made excuses for on its behalf. Violent ideologies have no place in society, and unfortunately, due to political correctness, apologetic politics, and let's face it, down right cowardliness, are more rampant than they've ever been in my lifetime.

#14 Sam: lol have fun with that kiddo
#26 CCTJOEY: Well said

I prefer NO religion to every religion. Far more good can come from humanity if we fought (or lived) for one another instead of a God that may or may not exist.

To an ideology that calls for the destruction of those who don't adhere, I see no solution but to rid the world of that ideology (maybe this is a little bit of a paradox), either through mockery (as per a recent Rest Day posting), gradual disintegration, or violence in return.

I hope that people like Van Gogh and Geert Wilders are remembered and talked about in future text books. I hope that my children learn about them in their schools, the same way that they learn about Thomas Jefferson and John Adams. To me these are among the bravest people in the planet: those who dare speak up against such obvious lunacy, and who bring some sanity to a completely insane world.

God bless (note: I say this to be ironic) those who dare stand up against such travesties of modern society as apologeticism, and political correctness for the sake of political correctness.

Fitna is a brave movie, and its makers are heroes in my eyes.

ischuros,

Did those 500 people also witness God coming down from the heaven and calling Jesus his son? Would your biology teacher agree that Jesus himself came from the creator of this Universe? Please stop throwing your belief-set around as established fact.

Keep in mind that the people at the time around him did not call him son. And even now Jesus' people - the Jews, don't believe that he was the son of God. Interestingly the only other major religion that does believe Jesus to be a prophet is Islam. Go figure!

Turning the other cheek is to respond to an aggressor without violence. The phrase is from the Sermon on the Mount in the Christian New Testament.

In the Sermon on the Mount in the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus says:

You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
—Matthew 5:38-42, NIV

so if turning the other cheek, which Jesus commanded, is to puss for you, maybe you should become a Muslim

cctjoey

#29 Prole:

If you just spent the last few years of your life at a liberal arts college, then yes, you would understand that taking the libertarian or conservative ("right-wing") opinion is tantamount to being persecuted. I often (OFTEN) had to defend a reasonable position against four or more very, very self-assured liberals ("progressives"). I was called "racist", "fascist", "bigoted", "retarded" and worse, just for stating these opinions:

-No, we have not lost one million American soldiers in the Iraq War. I think that even you would have noticed that we had lost more than twice the number we did in the entirety of WWII.

-Yes, I believe that affirmative action is an inherently racist policy, and that we all ought to be judged on our merits.

-Yes, I actually do believe that Saddam Hussein used chemical weapons against the Iranians and the Kurds. No, really. No, honestly. Yes, you can find it on the internet. No, I'm not making this up.

-No, I do not believe that man-made carbon emissions, particularly those coming from modern American cars and factories, are a significant part of ongoing climate change. I believe that the sun is a more critical factor to average global temperature, and that temperature and salinity gradients in the oceans are more likely to have caused hurricane Katrina.

-No, I do not believe that criticizing islam is racist, because islam is not a race, but a system of beliefs.

-No, the Republicans aren't calling for a draft. No, really. No, seriously. Seriously.

#48 Christian -- What you hope to gain by holding a CrossFit sermon, I don't know. But you remind me of the lady from Stephen King's "The Mist," and frankly, people like you, who base all reason, logical thought, and purpose, on the existence of something that has as much proof of existence as fairies and garden gnomes, terrify the ever-living crap out of me.

Between radical Islam, radical Christianity, and any form of radical, irrational thought, faith, or belief-system, there is nothing more dangerous to the survival of mankind -- and that includes nuclear weapons.

For those of us that don't blindly buy into the conspiracy of religion: if we get hit on the cheek, we hit back 3 times as hard to make sure we don't get hit again. We never asked for, expected, or believed in eternal salvation. Turning the other cheek does nothing for those who don't blindly believe in such things. Righteousness is self preservation and preservation of one's family and friends.

I'd much rather believe in the power of a nation, consisting of factual, living, breathing entities, than a Flying Spaghetti Monster God ruling on high, who may or may not exist.

Organized religion always has been, and always will be, a plague upon this Earth, until the day that God is either proven to exist, or proven to not exist. Organized religion, along with any form of radicalized, baseless thought, is a dangerous thing.

But if you and your breed insist on preaching on... then I will take your advice, and turn the other cheek, so as not to have to listen.

religion sucks....period.

hey, sorry to interrupt the rest day fireworks. I am a p.e. teacher at a small school in Kabul, Afghanistan implementing cf type workouts with my students. I am going to try to buy some elite (II) rings for my students, but it would be prohibitively expensive for me to ship them to the school. Are there any cf-ers in the Kabul area who get cheap shipping from the states? If you can help me, e-mail me at weurborg@aol.com
Thanks,
Si

#53 Josiah: This question might get more attention if you post it in the Message Board/Forum

Islam SUCKS! Bottom line.

#26 CCT Joey and #44 Ischuros......both good posts!

If well researched you will ultimately conclude (if you have half a brain....and I only have one-quarter of one) that Islam and the koran are not divinely inspired, but man-made. What better way, for an adversary, to confuse mankind than create something that "appears" similar to the original.

..............now take the same correlation and apply it to CrossFit. After knowing the truth, how supportive would you be of the suppossed "knock-off".

Take time to read the koran, and compare it with God's word.

Any half-intelligent person (or quarter intelligent), really desiring to truly know God, in their heart, will come to the proper conclusion.

"Between radical Islam, radical Christianity, and any form of radical, irrational thought, faith, or belief-system, there is nothing more dangerous to the survival of mankind -- and that includes nuclear weapons".

That's so true.

"Organized religion always has been, and always will be, a plague upon this Earth, until the day that God is either proven to exist, or proven to not exist. Organized religion, along with any form of radicalized, baseless thought, is a dangerous thing."

Please help me understand how one of the principle checks on human evil is solely a plague and not also a blessing. This, too, is an entirely--willfully--incomplete and unhelpfully intolerant position.

With respect to Islam, we feed the dogs when we give them the meat of surrender and cowardice. The moderates will never get a voice as long as the extremists get their way. If they hold their protests, perform their acts of violence, and get concessions, as rational humans--in this respect--they have every reason to keep doing it. Good things happen, no bad things happen (although George Bush was unexpected, setting them back tremendously; they can hope for an Obama ascendancy and a renewal of principled Failurism if not outright support).

We need to punish intolerance, and reward moderation. This is basic, simple, common sense policy. Not all Muslims are evil, but the ones who are need to fear us. If they don't want to fear us, we can help arrange their meetings with their virgins, and let those watching derive the obvious lessons.

From "Fitna" - Wikipedia

"French President Nicolas Sarkozy officially declared that France would provide every necessary support to aid the Netherlands in the suppression of any Muslim violence that would result from Fitna's release.[97]"

Note to Netherlands: please see WWI and WWII for a history of France's help to other countries in a time of need. "Oui Surrender!"

Christian...

And he said to them, But now, he who has a money-bag, or a bag for food, let him take it: and he who has not, let him give his coat for money and get a sword. -Luke 22:36

I somewhat doubt that Jesus meant turning your family's cheeks as well. As well, I never thought him condone the possible conquering of mans inalienable rights, just to turn the other cheek.

Seems like you misunderstand the Man

That picture is brilliant. Oh, how I miss California...

CCTJoey,

It takes more than aviator glasses to be able to handle a firehose. I think we're looking more at a low-pressure garden aren't we? I suggest if you put on your extreme-sport belt clips and your extreme-sport sweat-wicking clothing, and brave the wilds of your backyard California alfafa bed. You'll find your little pink hose between your mom's gardenia's and your own gladiolus. Then you can let me have it. Afterterward, you and mom can share a pitcher of margherita's on the patio and here stories of what it was like to be a hippie.

43/M/75"/198

Warm up 3x100 jump rope, 10 push ups, 10 squats and Sampson stretch then:

1000m run
50 Thrusters w/45# bar
30 Pull ups

9:18

I suck at pull ups!

#38 Rudy-I'm with ya buddy. I used to think the earth was only 10000 yrs old and the religion I was brought up to believe was right. Then I got to read Sam Harris, Carl Sagan, and Richard Dawkins.

Great authors. I think everyone should research their beliefs. If you still believe that's great-alot of my friends are very devout-but it was a real eye opener for me.

I do think that this fundamentalist Islam stuff does have to go.

27/M/180

5 rounds
30 GHD sit ups
25 Back extensions

as RX'd...10:12

WOD Rx'd
Rest!!!!!!

This is one of my favorite discussions!

I'll just make a couple very quick points:

Christianity and Islam are equally culpable - a great movie is Deliver Us From Evil, about Father O'Grady, a pederastic priest. Since the church valued the souls of their followers more than their physical safety, they hid evidence of abuse and protected the abusers.

This would not have happened without the belief in an immortal soul which can be "saved". 90% of the abuse occurred because of the belief.

Without religion, good people would do good things and evil people would do evil things. It takes religion for good people to do evil.

"Fitna"

I'm fitna go get somethin' to eat!

Prole,
Sir, No one here, who has followed your posts, would have any doubts that you are indeed the expert on hoses of all sizes and colors.

However, your preoccupation with how I would handle a hose is an unwelcome advance.

As for your preoccupation with what I am wearing, I can only assume based off of some hit shows on the Bravo Channel, that this issue is directly connected along with the fruity mixed drink reference.

Hence, your final comment about sharing stories with my mother (Who is a Goldwater Conservative actually). Well, I don't share stories or have emotional talks with my mother, like you recommend.

So please understand, Prole, that I am 'straight', and your advances make me feel uncomfortable and even ill.

Any further advances and I will have to file a greivance with the administrators of this website. I have the right as any American to go about my day with out harassment, sexual or otherwise.

CCTJOEY- Holding back the meatsticks trying to infiltrate CrossFit since March 2006.

Aviator Glasses? Extreme sports-belt clips? what are those?

The basis of most religions is love, peace and charity. People's selfishness and greed make them feel that their own religion is better. Some people believe the Bible, others the Koran, and others nothing. It doesn't make you a better person either way. Killing others is bad. Doing it in the name of a god is terrible excuse. While I realize freedom comes with social responsibility and requires order, most - if not all - wars probably could have been avoided. (An aside, I'm not opposed to forces in the mid east. I just think if other previous wars were avoided, the world wouldn't be in this horrible state.)

Golda Meir once said, "Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us."

This is so true for any conflict. It's despicable to think of how much better everyone in the world could be if nations worked together. Do the most good for the most people, not for your own religion or America.

It is interesting how the article is about Islam and the discussion quickly turned to "religion".
Ben69, I think it is interesting when you say "Without religion, good people would do good things and evil people would do evil things. It takes religion for good people to do evil."

How can you be sure that the "good people doing evil" are not just evil people to begin with, hiding under the umbrella of religion. As I have said before, there is no religion on earth that has perfect people. Christian, Jewish, and Muslim people are all still human.

Most of the time, when we see people in a religious position of authority doing terrible things, we think that they are failing to follow their beliefs. The issue arises when people do terrible things in the NAME of their religion (i.e. Islam).

And to think that doing away with religion is the solution or even possible is ridiculous. Even Atheism is a religion. And if you think that saying there is no immortal soul, and the world would be a better place if we are all atheists, you need to crack open a history book.

I've said it before and I will say it again, humans are inherently evil. It is complete BS to think that when push comes to shove, the majority of people will do the right thing if there are no rules or consequences. That is why we need the Bible to be a moral authority. That is why we need to look beyond ourselves for guidance.

my WOD was a "challenge" from my sister in law. she and i were talking about a workout and she told me to try it.

w/u CFWUx1 (-dips) burgener warm up with broomstick.
WOD
Deadlift (135 men, 95 women)
pushups
15 reps each, 10 rounds for time
23:22

DL as rx'd, pushups on knees. i found myself "pacing" my deads to bye time before my pushups. they killed me. brendan from CFHQ did this in 11:32 -- i figured it would take me 30. great workout, but not a lung burner, it was all muscle fatigue.

ck

you girls, along with annie, nicole and jolie, are my inspiration for doing the WOD with everything i got, pushing myself to failure, and not letting the guys scare me away from the weight room! crossfit has totally changed my life!!!

f/20/140/5'7 crossfitting since september

Nice pics! I'll have to try that in Galveston or Surfside Beach! LOL!

On a serious note on the article:
This same scenario chillingly reminds me of that with England's Salman Rashdie's situation. I agree that social responsibility should be juxtaposed with freedom of speech. Geert Wilders may very well be a neoliberalist in this case.

34/M/71/180

OK...so this rest idea - interesting. Maybe I should pay attention to the preaching of Glassman and fellow apostles.

FGB PR: 287
FGB today: 257

Pissed...humbled...enlightened.

Forgive me for my sins.

#68-MattheRat. I am an atheist. And you'd better hope that I have moral character since I land airplanes every day.

As far as opening history books to prove that atheists are "bad", you might want to open one yourself. Ever heard of "Gott Mitt Uns"? That was written on part of the Nazi uniform. Translated: God With Us. I bet you think Hitler was an atheist like everyone else who never read up on the guy. Oh and lets not forget about Stalin-the guy was an atheist-supposedly-but he was also a loon which was makes for a much better explanation than being an atheist.

I recommend reading some books written by atheists and see if we are such an evil group. Research, research.

If you need your religion to keep you from doing evil, that's fine. I'm sure you are a good person.
Just don't label me as evil, since I stress out everyday at work on making the right decision so people can get home to their families safe.

Enjoy your Crossfit.

CCTJOEY

As you know Brother, liberals always get personal when they are challenged.

PROLE:
Why would you feel moved to personally attack CCTJOEY? Do you feel threatened? I eat bacon too, I am also a Christian. I am an INFIDEL. in fact Prole if you are not a muslim you are an INDFIDEL also.

Tkeeloh,

The Marquis de Sade was an atheist, and specifically invoked his hatred of man for inventing God in rationalizing his calculated assaults on public morality. The language Richard Dawkins uses is to my mind functionally identical in its vehemence, intolerance, and utter lack of the very human kindness he claims to be working to increase. In my view, in fact, he is a sadist.

Stalin's atheism was foundational to his Communism. The two go together like leftism and lying. You cannot justify the reduction of human life to material, economic processes--and the corresponding politically motivated efforts to reduce human beings to matter without spirit--without recourse to materialistic atheism.

Hitler had all of the crosses in Germany replaced with Swastikas. He instituted what amounted to a civil religion oriented in effect around himself as the Godhead. His use of religion--and religious slogans--was purely manipulative. He evidently believed in the occult, but had no notions, obviously, of Christian tolerance, love, or kindness.

Your dog won't hunt. Human evil happens regardless of starting point, but it is quite clear that our traditional moralities--which you view as self evident--originated in religion, and are best supported in religion. It is precisely the secular, post religious nature of European society that prevents them from developing a clear moral compass with respect to the existential threat facing them.

The elimination of universal standards of right and wrong is the very first goal of all totalitarians, and both Hitler and Stalin (and Lenin, and Alger Hiss, and Tom Hayden) were successful in this. Their atrocities rested clearly on this basis.

And the notions of right and wrong are only grounded in the fabric of the universe by religions, which are best suited to resist the overt psychotic manipulations of budding Ueber-murderers.

This is not to say that atheism is inherently wrong. It isn't. It depends on the person. However, systemic atheism, viewed purely functionally, has always tended to diminish moral structures and cultural continuity.

First off - whoever said religion sucks, I take offense to that. If you think about the greater structure of our society today, what is the point in having laws and following them - so we can have a good, clean, law-abiding, non-discriminatory society? If you take a step a back and think about that - it kind of begs you to ask greater questions. Like when you die, if there were no God, what would the point be in following laws and a moral code of conduct? Additionally, what would it matter if good deeds were performed and bad deeds avoided, to get a slap on the ass? No, there has to be something greater reason why there are laws - otherwise we could just run around like animals.

Secondly, the any Radical religious group that threatens individuals basic freedoms - such as Geert's are making us all take a step back and be scared - i.e. terrorism. If you think about it - when another country posts a ridiculously offensive cartoon or movie about the President do we start threatening, murdering and car bombing those individuals? No - therefore that way of thinking is absolutely ridiculous. People like Geert are strong, and have amazing amounts of personal courage to stand up to those threats which are thrown at him.

Lastly - I think its pathetically absurd how this forum has turned to bashing other individuals in a public setting based upon their thoughts and ideals... isn't the purpose of this supposed to support dialogue (maybe in a respectful manner) and not act like a bunch of 8 year olds at recess?

Ha! Hey Jama!

Haven't seen you since high school. Hope you are well. I will tell Ryan that you're famous now.

#65 Keith M -- in the midst of all these serious and thought-provoking discussion, you made me laugh out loud.

For that, I am grateful. Thank you.

And now, back to the discussion . . .

tkeeloh,

I'm sorry if my post came off as labeling all atheists evil. That is not the point that I am trying to get across. I am not trying to say that atheists are inherently evil. I am saying that all humans are inherently evil. So though there may be some who might decide to do the right thing without any prompting from anyone, this is not the default for society.

A great example is the behaviour people immediately adopted after the disaster of hurricane Katrina. People were killing those who were trying to bring them food and water and other humanitarian aid. A man killed his own wife so that he could have sole possession of a bag of ice. Thank God for the people who were willing to go into a hostile area to restore the order. And don't forget the AF PJs and Combat Controllers who were some of the first in, saving people's lives.

My point is that without order, without law, without consequences for "evil" actions, the whole perception of what is evil and what is not can become very skewed.

What bothers me is when people say that religion is the cause of all the world's problems, and if everyone just cared about the good of mankind, there would be no problems. It sounds like a great idea. It reminds me of a song John Lennon wrote called "Imagine". When it comes down to it, this is socialism and communism to the core. Sounds like a great idea in theory, but bound to fail because you can not count of the innate goodness of mankind.

Sir, I am sure you are a good person, and the world would be a better place if there were more selfless people like you. I'm sure many of the Airborne Operators in New Orleans were Atheists. But my opinion is that if there was not at some point a moral standard, the world would be a lot worse off for the people who try to do the right thing.

Barry Cooper,

Thank you very much. You put into writing many of the thoughts I have but could not convey. I am, at times, inept when it comes to communication.

Jama - I miss you girl! I thought you were gona stop in a Cross Fit North Santa Cruz and hang with us! You're looking awesome and strong as always. Hope you see you soon!

#49 xpaz

RAmen.

Geert Wilders is an idiot. Take it from a Dutch man. I was just back home and saw him act idiotically. Too much time and energy. He knows nothing about Islam but that is not uncommon. I am a Christian and I read the bible. This morning I read the following: Then the Lord said to Moses: "On behalf of the people of Israel, take revenge on the Midianites for leading them into idolatry. After that you will die and join your ancestors." (Numbers 31: 1-2).

So you see, the Bible has its share of violence. Moses last act on the earth was to order genocide of the Midianites. And why? The were idolaters.

Don't read the Koran if you haven't even read the Bible.

#65 Keith You must be a Texan, as that is one of our favorite expressions, "weez uh fitna do everything"

some thoughts
1. I was ready for a rest, the last 3 days pounded me.

2. People of all faiths or no faith can do both good and evil things because of free will.

3. I believe the exhortation of Jesus to turn the other cheek was regarding personal offence and persecution, not a call to hyper-pacisfism. You insult me, I'll be the bigger man and walk away; you come into my house after my family, you are asking for trouble.

4. The Bible verse, "You shall not kill", says in the original Hebrew, "You shall not murder" (as in kill for no reason). You are allowed to defend you and yours.

5. In his letter to the Romans in the 12th chapter, Paul states that the "govenment officials do not bear the sword in vain" (paraphrase). Legal authorities have the right and responsibility to punish evil doers; and Paul goes on to say, "so don't be one (an evil doer)." Military, law enforcement etc. in my mind have the right and responsibility to defend citizens and innocents from the attacks of evildoers and criminals etc.

6. Horrific things were done by the church in the name of faith during the inquisitions etc of the middle ages. We all might do well to remember the phrase "physician heal yourself."

7. Shortcomings of any of us, in any faith or no faith, do not obscure the fact that there is currently no graver threat to mankind and world peace than radical jihadi islam. We are not talking about isolated of cases of moral failure in this instance, we are talking about a system set upon world subjugation and domination.

8. I respect all of you here for your dedication to these rigorous workouts, be you of a religious faith, or atheist, agnostic, or whatever other belief system. Even "no belief system", is in reality, a belief system.

AIMHO Have a great day and get some! 3-2-1 Rest!

SOME FOOD FOR THOUGHT------

This pattern is based upon The Hero: A study in Tradition, Myth and Dreams by Lord Raglan

Incidents which occur with regularity in hero-myths of all cultures:

1. Hero's mother is a royal virgin;
2. His father is a king, and
3. Often a near relative of his mother, but
4. The circumstances of his conception are unusual, and
5. He is also reputed to be the son of a god.
6. At birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or his maternal grand father to kill him, but
7. he is spirited away, and
8. Reared by foster -parents in a far country.
9. We are told nothing of his childhood, but
10. On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future Kingdom.
11. After a victory over the king and/or a giant, dragon, or wild beast,
12. He marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor and
13. And becomes king.
14. For a time he reigns uneventfully and
15. Prescribes laws, but
16. Later he loses favor with the gods and/or his subjects, and
17. Is driven from the throne and city, after which
18. He meets with a mysterious death,
19. Often at the top of a hill,
20. His children, if any do not succeed him.
21. His body is not buried, but nevertheless
22. He has one or more holy sepulchres.

Click on the name to see the pattern applied to the life of :

Krishna (21) / Moses (20) / Romulus (19) / King Arthur (19) / Perseus (18) / Jesus (18) / Watu Gunung of Java (18) / Heracles (17) Mohammad (17) / Beowulf (15) / Buddha (15) / Zeus (14) / Nyikang, a cult-hero of the Shiluk tribe of the Upper Nile (14) / Samson (13) / Sunjata, the Lion-King of Ancient Mali (11) / Achilles (10) / Odysseus (8) / Harry Potter (8) / Czar Nicholas II (14)

Individuals are listed in the order in which they fit the pattern. Numbers in parentheses indicate the number of pattern points which apply

Like all things Islam can be interpreted to mean anything, for every Sudani rioting in the streets of Khartoum (I was there as recently as 2005) there were three muslims in England that were mortified and embarrassed. Mr. Wilder has an agenda like every politician and a world view that is immutable, and a juxtaposition of Quranic versus and sectarian violence is an old technique that has been used in everything from Cuban propaganda to Khemr Roug broadcasts.

In the middle east islamic centers are information podiums, where someone who is culturally endowed with authority (an imam or mullah) has an intellectual monopoly over people who often dont have access to nonstate run television programs and newspapers. For many people (poorer than I could ever conceive before seeing them) the idea of something better out there is the only thing that makes crushing poverty and no medical attention a bearable reality.

So bottom line: the people are not evil, the religion is not evil. Like all fundamentalist religious branches (Christian and Jewish too...) outsiders are villanized to preserve the integrity of the flock. So we don't want to go out there and kill 'em all do we? We just want to kill the right ones to let the cultures and religions get back on course to doing what they are supposed to: letting people lead productive lives.

Flame away.

I love the Crossfit women!!! They are my motivation!

Oh geez...where to start. I have half an hour til I have to go to work...

Alright, Barry-

Stalin was a loon. Saying atheism was the sole cause of his behaviors is not accurate. There are plenty of people that can "justify the reduction of human life to material, economic processes--and the corresponding politically motivated efforts to reduce human beings to matter without spirit". You cannot say some of these politicians and religious leaders living today haven't done that.

Your remarks about Hitler are very debatable. His own personal works-I think it was in "Mein Kampf"? He talked of his personal god.

I agree that Dawkins goes a little too far-I was religious and wouldn't have liked to be insulted about my beliefs. Glad someone told me to research what I believed in though.

Moral values were present long before the Bible borrowed them. How do you think people lived long before the Bible or Koran were written? Yes, the Christian teachings DO help instill those values better but are not the only source by far.

"The elimination of universal standards of right and wrong is the very first goal of all totalitarians, and both Hitler and Stalin (and Lenin, and Alger Hiss, and Tom Hayden)"-does this make sense to pair atheism with them? Not at all.

"And the notions of right and wrong are only grounded in the fabric of the universe by religions, which are best suited to resist the overt psychotic manipulations of budding Ueber-murderers." -Here again, you forget about the many psychotics that used religion to justify their actions. The best example that comes to mind is the Virginia Tech shooter who compared himself to Jesus or Moses.

I can agree that atheism removed from human compassion could ADD to diminishing moral structures, etc. Try reading the Humanist Manifesto.

No, I'm not a bleeding heart liberal. I think we should take out every violent fundie whether Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, or whatever.

Sorry so choppy-in a rush here.

Matt-most religion is harmless. Though law and order need not come from a religious source-look at the U.S. Constitution, no mention of God or Bible and like I said before, morality was around alot longer than the guys who wrote the religious texts.

You are right-and I might be repeating myself-"you can not count of the innate goodness of mankind". Very true, but why does "good" have to come from your religion? It does not.

Communism and socialism? Let's not make the mistake of mixing them with a lack of a belief in God. That's a bit exaggerated. I will fight to the death to keep these United States free to Crossfit, discuss issues like this openly, and drink good beer or whatever else we choose to do, dammit.

Gotta run

Thanks maximus
I read it, and I have to say you have a lil' bite in your words. I'm not sure what you were trying to achieve but Eric had some very good points, in fact everything I read from him was ok and reasonable. It could be just me, but attacking a Muscle and Fitness magazine about fitness, seems a little nuts. The magazine if I recall is to help guys and gals build muscle and lose fat. I see it all the time, burn fat-gain muscle. Thats all anybody really wants really. But what you are saying or trying to get at with eric is exactly what he said, comparing apples to oranges. Two different training methods for two different outcomes. He's putting the crossfit article in because he thinks it's great, and then he checks the message board that day and all he sees is a dozen comments knocking the magazine and himself. That sucks.

I've got a question for the Crossfit ladies...
My wife wants to know if the girls in the various crossfit videos do crossfit exlusively... or do they do crossfit as part of a larger approach to fitness. And, if they do crossfit exclusively, do they just do the WOD and nothing else?

My wife is a personal trainer and she's in phenominal shape (5'/116 with a 530 Crossfit Total). She incorporates some crossfit into her own workouts, but she is reluctant to just do the WOD exclusively.

Thanks for the feedback.

Recommend Hero Workout for a recently departed SEAL up for the Medal of Honor. Props to CrossFit Pendleton for the link: http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2008/03/navy_seal_monsoor_medalofhonor_031708/

Jeez, look at all these scholars of Islam! And experts on Mid-East politics and culture! It must feel good to be able to speak for around 1 billion people spread out across the entire globe.

Agree with comment #93...

#58

World War 1 military deaths by countries
French: 1,397,800
USA: 116,708

WW2:
French: 212,000

(got those numbers from wikipedia)

Granted, they surrendered in WW2. But after loosing almost 1.4 million soldiers just a generation before, can you really blame them? I don't think the population wanted another war.

Hell, we lose one soldier here and we cry out to bring back the troops! Imagine losing 1.4 million...

Wow, I'd like to get behind that:)
Go Crossfit!

Stalin was NOT a loon. His behavior bore a manifest relation to that of Lenin, and to sundry radicals throughout the modern era, dating back to the French Revolutionaries, who were the first to try and found a society on "Reason", and eliminate God. Read your history. They literally recreated the calendar to get rid of Christian references, and tried to enact civil rituals intended to replace religious rites.

Self evidently, they murdered in cold blood thousands of clerics, along with people accused of being aristocrats, counter-revolutionary, or being dressed improperly (Regal colors, of course, were a manifest indication of regressive tendencies--A la Guillotine!!!)

Atheism is an integral part of Dialectic Materialism. The only thing Marx added to the ethos of the French Revolution was an economic explanation of history. That's it, and his models for Communism were the French Revolution, the uprising in 1848, and the Commune of 1870 (or thereabouts).

I distinguish dogmatic atheism from simply not believing in God by means of revolutionary zeal. The former want EVERYONE to stop believing in God, and expend enormous effort to work towards that end. Yet they spend no effort at all working to develop alternative moralities.

What do you think Nietzche was trying to do? What do you think Communism offers to people? Is it not a religion without God?

What is the dominant paradigm for the origin of life? Darwinism. This doctrine is oriented around survival of the fittest. Objectively, this may be the means by which life came into being. I don't know, and neither does anyone else.

However, I am very comfortable speaking to the philosophical consequences of this doctrine, and they are disastrous. Hitler used Darwinism to justify his entire project. Germans--seen biologically within an evolutionary framework--were superior. Jews--seen biologically within an evolutionary framework--were inferior.

Since no moral law outside the demand for reproduction existed, the "logical" course was to foster the interests of the best--the Germans--and eradicate the pollutants--the Jews--from the gene pool. Pragmatically, of course, mass murder was the logical, self evidently most efficient process. As famously stated in the movie "The Nuremburg Trials", the disposal of the bodies was a logistical problem, not a moral one.

Moreover, this same logic was applied in Communist Russia and China, except that rather than relying on the "science" of biology, they used the dismal science, that of economics. Oriented as they were in a materialistic mindset, in which all elements of history were in effect in a sort of fixed motion similar to the movement of the planets, they were able to reduce people to objects, to be used as needed to fulfill their role in the march of Communism towards inevitable victory.

So when Stalin starved the nation of the Ukraine, killing millions, that was not his doing, but History. When Chairman Mao disrupted his entire nation in a futile effort to go directly back to a decentralized agrarian economy, killing millions, that was merely the march of history.

When the North Vietnamese killed 65,000 South Vietnamese in cold blood after massing tanks on the border, and invading in a conventional manner, that was simply History, not human agency.

When the Khmer Rouge killed millions, in an effort to duplicate Mao's disaster in a shorter period of time, that was History.

History is a reification signalling a coercive, higher power that was formerly held by God. Unlike the concept of God, however, there are no limits placed on behavior, and no crime beyond the pale.

You ask what happened before Christianity? Self evidently, there were other religions, all of which preached moral norms, at least within one's group.

Moral norms that one searches for in vain in Leftism.

Thanks #85 for the Dutch perspective. Most people here are waxing eloquent about a religion they know little about except what news snippets they are fed as #94 said.

F/U FGB, details there: 306

#93 stoker - I'm right with you. PO2 Monsoor deserves one. Actually, the Marine who died under the same circumstances - diving on a grenade to save his comrades - deserves one too, as does Sgt. Paul Smith of the Army. It's not the act of naming something after them that matters, it's the act of remembering them and being motivated by their lives every time we do the workout.

-- -- -- --

As for the religion debate:

Nobody would fear the (decidedly inconvenient) detachment of their head if he drew a cartoon of a gay Moses and a cross-dressing Peter on the Strip giving handjobs for food stamps.

I did a combination 30 muscleups for time with 30 clean and jerks for time at 64kg.
I broke it up into 10 sets of 3 muscleups and 3 C&J. I did one set of MU and CJ every two minutes.
Took me exactly 20 minutes. MU sets were broken after the 4th set. Maybe one day I'll be able to do it in 8 minutes like Annie.

Did I miss it or was there not one mention of Coach in the M&F article?

No rest for the wicked!

Today...spinning 45 mins...followed by a "Helen" retry...

Last weeks time had room for improvement...time then 10m55s...

Todays time...09m38s!

Rock on!

The only problem now and days with our culture is that we have become so PC it is becoming disgusting. You can't make even the littlest joke about anything without the thought of a lawsuit coming for you. I believe that the left is becoming so apologetic that it is quick to defend the "minority" People who associate with the radical left will defend these people without thinking of any backlash it may have on our own people. I.E. Shiria Law, look at how England is now having problems with muslims over there. I think that Teddy Roosevelt said it best that anyone in one particular country especially the U.S. have to have a need to assimilate.

tkeeloh,

"Though law and order need not come from a religious source-look at the U.S. Constitution..."

While God is not mentioned in the Constitution God is mention as the source of our rights in the Declaration of Independence. The Constitution was written to protect those rights. Also, it is worth mentioning that God is mentioned in all 13 original state constitutions.

I'm pointing this out not to argue whether or not law and order need to come from a religious source. I just think we should recognize that in the case of our country God and religion played a role.

what has christianity and islam got to do with working out? the only politics that belongs in the gym is the politics of pain!!

Ok, I gotta sec here but then back to work!

Barry-what history books are you reading? And if you think Stalin wasn't crazy, perhaps you believe that Jeffrey Dahmer was a saint?

Oh, where to start with you? Is it even worth it?
I get the impression that you are some sort of conspiracy theorist and maybe a bit loony yourself. Do you think the world is also flat, the sun revolves around the earth, and the world came into existence 6000 years ago? You remind me of one of those 9/11 nuts that thinks the U.S. attacked itself.

I think I am washing my hands of this. If you aren't open to thinking for yourself, it's really a waste of a good break!

I've been CrossFitting for 4 months now and I love it...I'll never do anything else. I coach high school football, and I'm also the head football strength coach. I'd like to get a certification in strength and conditioning this summer. I noticed that the CrossFit cert is $1000. Is it worth shelling out that much money to become CrossFit certified?

Our American problems with Islam or any other form of bullying intolerance didn't really start until our country allowed the import of Wham onto our nation's radios. Combine that with Michael Jackson, parachute pants, silly hats, and 99 Luft Balloons and I rest my case...

#98

Exactly!

"Granted, they surrendered in WW2. But after loosing almost 1.4 million soldiers just a generation before, can you really blame them? I don't think the population wanted another war."

France lost 1.4 million in WWI and 212,000 in WWII and was unable to significantly help win either war. Why should the Dutch think that the French offer of help now should be of any comfort or significance??

Can I blame the French for surrendering after losing 1.4 million a generation before? Absolutely, I blame them! I think it is a cowardly excuse! If you agree to help that includes when the times are tough and for the duration; not just on sunny days and when the German army is on their side of the Maginot Line.

By the way:
French casulties in WWII - 212,000
American casulties in WWII - 416,000

#87 Rudy, great post, thanks.

FLOSI-I don't disagree with that at all. It most certainly did.

Oh and the Declaration of Independence is written: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,...". Not God, but "their Creator".

Big difference, at least those who practice non-Christian religions would argue.

#43, Tony P, I don't view it as a 'cheat' but it does lack one element that a full GHD has which is that the full GHD situp requires an engagement of the quad (to the extent required to keep the leg strait) differently than if the leg is locked down above the knee. It would be a different stimulus, which as you know in Crossfit is usually not a bad thing. Someone with more experience than I would have to weight in on the relative merits of the two movements. I say, take what you can get!

Great pic!

...but it's flat as a pancake.

---

custom workout - called it "d-day"

- run 3 miles to the gym

five rounds of:
- deadlifts
- dips
- dumbbell shrugs

- run home.

--
Christian
http://run50miles.org

tkeeloh,

If someone has a different opinion than you, it does not make them crazy. If you have been led to believe something all your life by those around you and literature you have read, you may have very strong convictions that you are right and others are wrong.

I have a hunch that you are not omniscient. And in the case that you are not, you do not have the right to badger others that disagree with you and make accusations of insanity. There is nothing wrong with a point, counterpoint debate. It is fine if you do not wish to continue making arguments, but why resort to childishness?

I personally see no connection whatsoever that this discussion has with 9/11 conspiracy theorists or any similarity between them and anyone involved in the debate today.

tkeeloh,

There could be a big difference between "God" and "their Creator" depending on who you are talking to but in the case of the Founding Fathers I think it's fair to say that the statement was rooted in religion.

Could anyone help me out with a good way to do some active recovery for my abs from yesterdays workout? This was the first hard ab workout I've done in months and I AM SORE! Thanks for any and all help!

#57 barry cooper

Thank you for making that distinction. However I believe that the principle check on human evil is the inherent goodness and morality that exists in every person -- that is, until religion comes along and gives us reason to be evil.

Morality, goodness, and "righteousness" can be taught just as easily through parents, real-life lessons, and public schools, as they can through a religion. I would prefer to be "GOOD" for the sake of being good; not for the sake of a God who might become angry and punish me if I turn bad. When blind faith in a deity who commands you to be good is the only thing stopping you from becoming evil, you are in a sad state of affairs, at high risk of falling into the same trap that Islam seems to have fallen into.

I won't say that religion has brought nothing good to the world (charities, etc.). This good is a projection of the good within humanity though; not the good within God. Of course, I have no proof of God's non-existence. I do, however, have proof of the goodness and badness within human beings. It is tangible, observable, and alterable.

People are good until they are given something worth being bad for (yes, intentionally a sweeping generalization, as much so as "original sin") Whether it's a cheating spouse, a vengeful God, or their home country.

On that same note, you can claim that organized society in and of itself (The United States of America) is evil, because people will kill, maim and die in its name. However, again, I'd prefer that people kill, maim, and die in the name of something tangible, than in the name of something intangible and, with equal probability, completely non-existent as God.

#66 Ben69

Holy crap, man. Well said.

All-in-all, religion is an excuse for people to not have to take responsibility for their actions or for their lives. I would never want to be in combat with someone who believes with 100% certainty that God has already decided his/her fate. I would never want to be that powerless to help myself or my friends in a bad state of affairs.

I would never want someone's excuse for visiting harm upon me or my friends, to be a vengeful God. I would much rather they try to kill me for stealing oil, bombing their goat farms, or peeing in their coffee.

#87 I agree with Paul great post

I'm not sure if anyone hear watches stand up comedy or Lewis Black, but his latest special called Screwed has a great bit about the old testament that I have found to be very insightful when looking at all religious texts in general.

It's kind of funny also that this topic has come up considering I am in a mandatory class where we are currently reading and analyzing 4 religious texts (Old and New Testament, Koran, and Bhagavad-Gita). My professor makes us look at them from purely a textual basis and asks us to try and limit looking at them from a religious POV. We have also read old Greek stories and philosophers. Next week we have Machiavelli.

Xpaz and the other intolerant religion haters – get a grip, the damage done by religion is almost always when it is associate with the power of the state; and that power corrupts. Institutions of all colors routinely fail to meet their ideals, because they are run by humans. Religion itself has little power to harm outside of owning state power to coerce. For those who point to Al Qaeda, that is the exception that proves the rule.

Religion can be seen as an attempt to codify and contextualize virtue in a way that allows humans to access and reinforce behaviors which are necessary for humans to survive and thrive. To the extent that they are successful in this attempt, they grow. Yes, it's religious Darwinism, but really it is cultural Darwinism. One doesn’t have to be a believer to be able to see that there are human beings all over the world who use religion to make their lives better, fuller, richer, more meaningful, and do so in a context of constructive human relationships.

Anyone of you that cares to - kindly name a successful, growing and/or admirable atheist or agnostic culture/society?

Barry's posts are spot on - and tk is missing the point.

Matt-in-Oz - blaming war on religion is so bizarre I wonder if you make such a post just to be provocative. There have been religious wars, and there will be more, but many of these are blamed on religion when other issues - economic and political - are the drivers. There is less war now per capita than has ever before been - can you say that jives with your statement about religion causing wars? How could you possibly believe that without religion, men would not fight over women, food, turf and/or soccer games? Are you kidding? We fight because it has proven a necessary adaptation for survival. When a people, or people, can fight well, it is less likely they will have to.

Chris - you won't get much from this site from taking offense, unless that is what you like to feel. In any event, I don't like these 'ad hominem' attacks on religion either, but that's because they are not grounded in truth. WRT your question: "If there were no God, what would the point be in following laws and a moral code of conduct?" Following good laws and behaving with respect for oneself and one's neighbors (another way of saying "love your neighbor as yourself") is the best way to live. Plain and simple. To the degree that religions help us to assimilate these behaviors, they help us to "have life and have it more abundantly" as the great teacher said.

I would take issue with saying 'all humans are inherently evil.' Humans are born with innate drivers to give them the best chance to survive - the fact that humans have learned how to live interpedently, and teach their children to do the same, is a remarkable cultural phenomenon. That they do so best with minimal regulation by the state, and thus when allowed to practice mutually agreeable exchange (free trade), is equally remarkable for the relatively small numbers of people that are able to observe such a simple phenomenon.

Maximus - interesting exchange. I was impressed by the editor's response to your potent (and largely accurate) accusations and more favorably inclined to M&F.

Paul

#110

The French, like every other country, will do what's in their best interest. If it helps them to help the Netherlands, then they will. If not, then they won't.

They helped America gain its independence, but that's because they wanted to weaken England. But remember that they have helped! So their track record clearly indicates that they could help out.

In the cartoon issue, I'm guessing that since the Arabic population in France is huge, they want to make a show about supporting western values.

Just a guess though.

And I apologize for not including USA losses for WW2. I realize that doing so was adding weight to my point and not making it as objective.

Last night pyramid workout with a friend:
1x1 mile run: 6:50
2 x 800m= 3:20 - 3:25
3 x 400m= 1:33 - 1:35 - 1:34
4x 200m= .33 - .44 - .33 - .44 -we did not quite split an equal distance on the track, can you tell :)
5 x 100m= .17 - .17 - .17 - .17 - .17

Today- “The Beast”, 65# bar
DL,
PC,
PP,
FS,
lower behind head and switch to snatch grip,
PP,
OHS,
lower behind head,
BS,
PP,
rack it, put on floor
= 1 rep

As many reps in 20 min
= 30 PR! Yay! Finally a PR in a metcon. I needed this jump mentally. Last time= 24

Erin

xpaz,

I don't see how "religion" gives people and excuse for not taking responsibility for our actions/lives. (I don't like the word "religion", as it is about having a relationship with God the Father through Jesus Christ, not the performance of religious acts). God has given us free will to make decisions for ourselves (do we choose to sin, do we choose to do what is inherently good?).

The fact that God already knows what will happen in a situation should give us assurance, whether good or bad, because it is His will, not ours. Your example of not wanting to go to battle with who puts thier complete trust in God should be a good thing, for if they were to die they know that they would spend eternity in heaven.

Eric

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSbs4P4goiU&feature=related

Lewis Black on the Old and New Testament. It starts at 1:20 and really makes his point at around 3:00. It is at the very least a good laugh, please give it a quick look.

"However I believe that the principle check on human evil is the inherent goodness and morality that exists in every person -- that is, until religion comes along and gives us reason to be evil."

This was the argument Rousseau made, and it created the first ideologically oriented mass murder. What evidence for it do you have, other than political convenience?

Please also define "Good". Absent dictates like "love thy neighbor as thyself", what is your means of defining it, such that we can agree?

Why is mass murder wrong? In my experience, most purportedly humanistic systems get into trouble instantly. Perhaps you can surprise me.

If you want to argue that "it's obviously wrong", then please tell me why I should not infer that you are simply regurgitating a Judeo-Christian ethic which has been inculcated in you socially, and from which you have simply removed the source?

Proof Positive that Islam is a peaceful religion, and that the Geert Wilders of the world are ignorant xenophobic haters just stirring up trouble:

“Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those [who say this] are witless. Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by [the unbelievers]? Islam says: Kill them, put them to the sword and scatter [their armies]…. Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for the Holy Warriors! There are hundreds of other [Qur’anic] psalms and Hadiths [sayings of the Prophet] urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all this mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim.”

Ayatollah Khomeini. quoted from Ibn Warraq Why I am Not A Muslim Prometheus Books 1995 p.11-12. (p.381) Amir Taheri. Holy Terror. London, 1987. p.226-227.

anyone see the new Men's Journal? Crossfit article inside

It is interesting to compare and contrast radical Islam’s response to the Muhammad cartoons with its response thus far to the film Fitna. The film, which spells out radical Islam’s commitment to the destruction of the West, is shrugged off. Why? Because there really isn’t anything to object to or rebut. Islamic scholars are not claiming there is anything inaccurate in the film. The crazies are not insulted, since that is what they actually believe.

(By “crazies” I refer to the subset of Muslims who riot and/or encourage rioting over things like cartoons, and I do not refer the much larger group, who while they may be offended, nonetheless react peacefully and rationally.)

There is a lesson here: It is perfectly acceptable to expose the insanity of radical Islam, just don’t make fun of their religion. Get it?

Holy cow man! Too much...must stop computing...

Stalin was nuts.

People here are too sensitive.

Good people are from everywhere.

Let's go crossfit.

Well, I went to the local Barnes and Noble to see if they had the new issue of Muscle and Fitness, it wasn't out yet. However, I spotted the following title on the cover of the May issue of Men's Journal, "Get Fit or Die Trying-Inside the Hottest Trend in Exercise." It's a very positive article about Crossfit. The author has been doing it, and plans, at least for the near term, to continue. If this info has already been posted, sorry, didn't see it.

Don't be scared Mikey! It's fun, join in. If you can drink the kool-aid, you can handle a little bit of spirited debate.

anyone see the new Men's Journal? Crossfit article inside

#129
Agreed, but it's a religious/political topic. People are bound to have strong feelings that are in complete opposition with someone.

All that being said MY ABS KILL!!!!!

CCT Joey,

You’re right. Mom comments were out of line.

The article’s comparison of Al Gore (types) with Senator Joe McCarthy (types) is stupid, comical, and not befitting a “muscular” right wing politics (though, really, in a contest to see who is the biggest whiner, Rush Limbaugh and Michael Moore would finish neck in [flabby] neck).

I don’t know what television show you’re talking about (I’m one of those liberal arts college types who looks down on people with televisions).

What makes me squeamish about the act of firehosing hippies is not its obvious association with historical acts of bald state oppression in places like Montgomery Alabama or Soweto South Africa, it’s the thought of wrecking all those jam-packed ipods.

A last question: are you to blame for the west-coast souvlaki shortage?

An impressive effort in using the weighted vest...but it worries me that reverse (negative, if you will) muscle-ups are not performed to return to the starting position (not to single you out Jeff, the other vids on the site have others using the same tactics)...by simply dropping back down one not only sacrifices total ROM, strength, and psychological taxation, but also puts a lot of strain on the shoulder (especially with weight, ouch). I suppose I am just under the impression that a movement like the muscle-up does not count unless you go up an come back down with total control. Dropping, instead of lowering, down sounds like an easy way to "drop" 10 minutes off my Jason time! But we are not going for the easy way, right?

Coupla thoughts:

1) Complete instructions for atrocity are written down right there in the manual but most European/Western Christians, Jews, and Muslims choose to ignore them. Just about any evil you could wish to visit upon your fellow man can be justified, excused, or rationalized by any "holy book" you care to choose. Go ahead and add "Mein Kampf" or "The Communist Manifesto" that list because both endorse a system of thought that adherents follow with what can only be called religious zeal. "Islamic violence" is caused more by the cultures that follow Islam than by Islam itself.

2) The question of good and evil is purely religious and wholly separate from morality. Both the bible and the Koran devote as many pages to describing what you can eat as dealing with questions of morality. Refraining from unnecessary violence, respecting others' property, leading a contributory life, and the like are fairly universal concepts in all organized religion because they are necessary components of a functioning society. A culture isn't going to develop far enough to actually right things down and establish any form of organized religion if its people lack innate basic morality. Morality is a common component of all human civilization, even those that are largely humanist in nature. In other words; morality leads to society, which leads to religion, which leads to philosophy, which, in talking about religion and morality, leads people to be confused about where morality came from.

3) The particular religious faith of a society or its leaders is a terrible indicator of the likelihood or scale of atrocities. The Spanish Inquisition didn't start off with the goal of torturing thousands of heretics, Stalin didn't grow up with the dream of killing millions of his own people, and Hitler didn't cook up the Holocaust over a beer in a Munich pub. ALL of them started with what they considered worthy goals, and reasonable tactics. Atrocities happen when well-intentioned idealists are given the power to pursue their vision unchecked. At each obstacle another sacrifice has to be made in order to realize the dream and advance the common good. The real culprit is too much power in the hands of too few. We baby-step our way to atrocity.

Oh step in the doo doo here I go-

#120 Apollo, Sweden is said to be 85% non religious and they seem to be doing fine:

http://www.gadling.com/2007/08/23/least-religious-countries/

I'm religious, but I think it's okay if it's not everyone's thing.

Men's Journal article? Good time to take an aspirin for the headache I got from reading all these posts and pick one up.

I am not religious and I don't believe our moral sense comes from religion. If you believe in evolution, as I do, the moral sense in humans developed over tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of years of human history before religion even existed. If anything, religion is a means of perverting our moral sense, if allowed. It is also a means of illuminating our innate moral values if done correctly. It's not cut and dried.

#135
I'm confused on point number 2...LOL
Where does morality come from? Can you give me an example of a moral decision?

42yom / 147

April "PainStorm" from Dan Colson

38:11 as rx'd

Dan you are a mean man. This workout was brutal. I wanted to give up before I completed the thrusters in the first round. By the last round the Burpees took whatever I had left. Completely spent after this one. Ouch...

Off for a week of hotel workouts. See if I can put something good together.

not gonna be able to workout tomorow, so did a lynne with towel pu's

12/8, 10/9, 7/8, 7/4, 7/3

then i did something i made up, 10 dips and 5 pu's, 10 rounds for time. did it in 12:24

also, i want to marry eva t

#138
How the h@ll should I know? I don't even remember typing that stuff.

My own personaly morality is completely determined by my selfish genes and the size of my monkeysphere.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene
http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/monkeysphere.html

Seriously, my only point in #2 is something that most theists (outside of the most strident Calvinists) and humanists can agree on. Morality is inherent to human nature. The actual source could be natural selection, the divine spark, or the holy spirit. We could argue that question, but the point is that we are born with the basics.

Mhlane Comment #139

Eva T has a whole bunch of workouts that you can do without equipment. I cannot remember if it was on the crossfit site or on another site. If you email me I'll send you the list which contains at least a couple of hundred workouts that you can do in a hotel from Eva T. They are all crossfit style workouts. I love them and they are my go to workouts while traveling.

Have Fun, Train Hard,

Billy

Billy:
Thanks a ton, but I already have them downloaded to my laptop. Depending on what equipement is available at the hotel I may mix in some of my own inventions. Should be fun but I always have withdrawls when I cannot do the WOD from the main page.

Thanks...Mike

"Kurt Westergaard, the cartoonist from one of the Jyllands-Posten cartoons of Muhammed, has expressed concerns because his cartoon is used in the film without his permission"

That film sounds like a high-class production.

Mike, I know exactly what you mean. No matter how hard I smoke my own workout, I always feel that I didn't quite get the beating that I deserve unless I did the workout of the day from the main page :>)

By the way, do you remember where you got the Eva T. workouts without equipment from, I can't remember and I can't find it now?

Have Fun, Train hard,

Billy

CCT Joey,

You're right, mom comments were out of line and the whole tone of my post was stupid.

My point: it's silly to compare Al Gore (types - whom I dislke) with Senator Joe McCarthy (types - whom I fear), and it isn't in keeping with a muscular conservatism to whine like that author did (though in terms of whining and musculature I think Rush Limbaugh [types] and Michael Moore [types]are about even).

Also, I don't like repeated references to fire-hosing someone as a form of discourse (re: Montgomery AL., Soweto South Africa).

Finally, if, by waging your battle against 'meat-stick's you are the person responsible for the shortage of souvlaki on the west coast, then I ask you to declare a ceasefire.

Billy:
Sent you an email...

41yo/f/154lbs
WOW~ What a discussion today.
And what a workout from yesterday, sore core keeps getting sorerer...
Did one of Eva T's bodyweight workout's today
run 100m, 20 squats 8 rounds timed-6:33

Apolloswabbie -

I understand your point and absolutely agree with it. I am just trying to play devil's advocate. For example - who is to judge what is the right way to live by and what is the wrong way? Why are we trying to live by good laws and live our neighbors as in the Golden Rule? I guess without religion it really would not matter; because after you have long gone and died - what does it matter if you led a good life or not? Maybe that is more of what I am trying to say? I know it sounds crazy - but see Fyodor Dostoevsky's "Crime and Punishment" where he makes a pretty solid argument for the influence of God/religion (any God or any religion) on our judicial system/laws.

Alright, my apologies to barry for not knowing any better... you are right, MattheRat, growing up with loony ideas are not his fault and he should be excused for being ignorant. After all, I used to think nutty things too before I started to look into reality.
It's feeding time, and since I have no morals and don't believe in a soul, I'm gonna eat this baby I have been saving all week and think of love...

"I'm gonna eat this baby I have been saving all week"

I have to admit. That is funny.

So is anyone spiritual and not religious anymore? Religion means rules and spiritual is just that you can look inside yourself to find answers because you are connected to whatever brought you to this big dance called life. Religion should lead to your spirituality not to a loss of humanity. The loss of humanity is the killing of another human being because I want something they have or that they disagree with me. Truth is my religion(CF)doesn't hurt anyone unless they agree to step up for a Fight Gone Bad after eating mexican 10 minutes beforehand. It'll be funny when all who kill in the name of religion end up in a nice fiery pit or dark emptiness or an eternal talk show hosted by the devil together. At least they'll all realize that they have something in common and forever to think about it.

#120 Apolloswabbie

Don't mistake my dumbfoundedness with intolerance. I've never criticized anyone for their choice of faith (or lack thereof). I am the exception in my family, who are all, to some extent (and some more than others) followers of some particular faith.

I don't understand it, and I don't agree with it, however I am hardly intolerant of it. I am, however, intolerant of anyone who chooses to turn that faith into radicalism -- and for the sake of saving my breath, I won't define what I believe radicalism to be, as I think we are mostly all pretty much agreed on what that is.

Don't mistake my enjoyment of good debate for intolerance -- however, in the name of battling apologetics, it doesn't really matter :)

I choose to be "good," because I know what being treated badly feels like. For the same reason that I would not want to be hurt, I do not hurt others. There is nothing divine in this methodology. It's a common bit of human reasoning. And in my eyes, there is nothing that separates human reasoning and deduction from cockroach reasoning and deduction, other than entirely separate evolutionary pathways and more gray matter.

There is plenty of good that comes from religion. I feel that this good, however, is inherently HUMAN, and not divine. People of all races and backgrounds are capable of this good, without the supposed inspiration of the divine. I do not agree with people doing good for the sake of pleasing God, or earning eternal salvation. I would love to live in a society where there is no God, but only humanity.

The notions of "right" and "wrong," I feel, are just another set of instinctive responses that have developed through our evolution to facilitate our survival as a species. I dare you to challenge the notion that in the dawn of man, mankind did not behave like animal. Right and wrong came as a result of the process of civilization and actual humanization, in my eyes.

As for the comment about "religion only being bad in the hands of the state." That's largely true. Does that make it any better? Religion is still used, be it by individuals, or by states, as a basis for waging war, hatred and intolerance.

At the expense of losing the good aspects of religion (a few charities, etc.), and some people becoming depressed and lonely without any reassurance that their good behavior is going to actually get them something once all is said and done, I would much rather never lose another life to something as ridiculous as religion again.

As for the question of free will...

If God has everything planned out, then there's not much point in getting up in the morning. Not much point in going to work, feeding your kids, kissing your wife, or defending your nation. Not much point in anything. After all, whatever happens, it will be God's will.

Now imagine the rest of the world taking this perfectly logical premise (based entirely on a work of fiction and blind faith, mind you), and putting it into practice. Perhaps it would then be God's plan to topple nations, economies, and send the world into chaos, when 6 billion people suddenly don't rise in the morning to go about their lives.

There is far more control in the hands of humanity than in the hands of any deity, whether that deity exists or not.

"Do you already know what I'm going to do, God?"
"Yes."
"What if I don't do it?"
"Then I don't know that..."

I don't deny the existence of a greater being. But I would never, ever, ever accept it based on what others seem to be so willing to accept it on.

If God gave us free will, then God is not omniscient. If God is omniscient, then we do not possess free will -- merely the illusion of it. If we possess merely the illusion of free will, then it makes no difference what choices we feel we should or should not make: all will be at the whim of the divine.

There are plenty of free will paradoxes out there, all of which can be taken at different levels of seriousness.

If you buy into determinism over causality, then that's your call -- both have their merits and shortcomings. Neither is concrete, and neither should be downright BELIEVED based on faith alone, or at all.

Unfortunately, arguing about religion and the existence of God is, again, as useless as arguing about the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Outright believers will, no matter what, insist on the Spaghetti Monster's existence.

As Chris Rock put it, in the silly, but oddly wise "Dogma"

"You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. People die for them, people kill for them."

I feel sorry for those who outright BELIEVE.

No hard feelings to anyone who believes otherwise. I can't change a belief, and without proof, you can't change my ideas.

xpaz #153,

The question of predestination vs. freewill is mostly scholarly. I have yet to meet a person who just said, "muh!" to everything because they figured God already had it all planned out. People still end up acting according to some mixture of conscience and self-interest.

In religions that are heavily based on predestination (fatalism) the concept of duty is often central to the faith. In other words, God has pre-ordained the outcome but you still have your duty to do. Successful religions that incorporate the idea of predestination have an equally strong component of duty.

The samurai were some of the most extreme fatalists to ever walk the planet. Try to picture feudal Japan falling into a malaise because people figured everything was predetermined.

I believe in a higher power. God. Allah. Whatever you want to call it. (note God = Allah = whatever higher power. Its just a different language. Its like saying you don't believe in dog when a spanish speaker calls it a perro). So just a question: Omniscience and all powerfulness means that you can see all the choices laid out before they happen. If you were born you're going to die. Start of the string end of the string. Any philosophy majors out there? Here's a stretch. I'm now all powerful so I can drop the string in the water or i can burn it or i can stick it in my dogs food. Nevertheless i know whats going to happen in each of those cases. If a string acquires thinking and decides it will become a fuse for a firecracker my omniscience says to me hey it will "die" but it chose to go the way of burning and not being flown as a kite. We have free will given to us by something mightier than ourselves but its how we chose our time on this mortal coil of string.
Now if you don't believe in a higher power thats your life. You live and you die and its over. Why am I going to thrust my beliefs upon you?

By they way i'm starting a war on people that don't like Kraft mac and cheese!!! =)

#121

"The French, like every other country, will do what's in their best interest. If it helps them to help the Netherlands, then they will. If not, then they won't."

Perhaps that reasoning works for France and other nations, but that is what seperates the U.S. from the rest of the world - the U.S. doesn't always do or continue to do what is in their best interest, but you can count on them backing up their word.

"They helped America gain its independence, but that's because they wanted to weaken England. But remember that they have helped! So their track record clearly indicates that they could help out."

Yes, they "could," but so "could" Switzerland theoretically. France didn't make significant contributions to the colonies in the Revolutionary War until later in the war. Before committing, the French government demanded assurance that the colonist's revolution would be more than a skirmish, that the colonists (and as a result of helping them, the French) had a chance of winning, and that France could gain financially.

"In the cartoon issue, I'm guessing that since the Arabic population in France is huge, they want to make a show about supporting western values.

Just a guess though."

I agree.

"And I apologize for not including USA losses for WW2. I realize that doing so was adding weight to my point and not making it as objective."

I thought this was interesting, maybe you will, too.

Per year loss WWI
France - 280,000/year - 5 years of war
U.S. - 58,000/ year - 2 years of war

Per year loss WWII
France - 106,000/year - 2 years of war
U.S. - 83,000/year - 5 years of war

Prole, if I was on the West Coast I might help you out, but I can only assume that you believe that I have something to do with California. I can assure you, I do not.

Also, let us not confuse meat-on-a-stick and meatstick.

The fire hose is just to keep them from forming drum circles.

and harassing military recruiters.

Freedom of speech extends to those under US rule right? So what if I showed someone a video of 5 different people having sex with your signif other that you love so dearly and I was the last one then I said, "See no matter what you say your signif other is a whore!! Haha!!," you wouldn't be the least big upset? Point is that you say something that you know will enrage someone expect flak.

Im making a sandbag to train with....anyone no what size military duffle bag i should get for this(standard,jumbo,giant)?
any help will be appreciated.
thanks
cb

I have a question for anyone who an help me. Why does CrossFit use the term "INFIDEL" on a lot of their t-shirts?? I know there are a number of different uses of the word depending on the context, but what is the meaning in this case??

Just curious and any help is appreciated.

29/f/112

wanted to do the bear but have a cold so took it easy today.

5x5 bench press:

95-95-100-105-110 (f on 5th rep)

5x5 deadlift:

155-185-195-200-205

pre: wux1
post: freestanding hspu practice

jeff you rock, great video love seeing you guys on the main page!

sweet pic today too!

Hope you girls are having a great time. (Looks like you might be.)
Lots of love,
Cill

So to summarize today's discussion.

"Your beliefs are not the ultimate truth and how dare you try to portray them as such with out a disclaimer. When you know full well that my belief/non belief system is the ultimate truth.

So take that!"

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Today has been an interesting read. I am an "athiest". I will keep most of my views and opinions to myself because people here have already said most of what I would have said already.

So here is to the recovery of all the sore abs and backs to include my own.

I know this is a nice comment from an athiest but that just goes to show you that you don't have to believe in "something" to be a good person.

I guess most people need something to hold on to to quantify their existance, most turn to religion...

Let the discussion continue.

S/F

#154 RifRafBob:

I have had discourse with many, including several posters on here, who have taken the question of free will and/or pre-destination quite literally. I feel people use this as a means of escaping blame or responsibility for their actions, or for the things that happen to them. Someone who says "It's ok if I die; it's God's plan." is far more dangerous to themselves and to others than someone who says "Screw that plan; we're going to fight for our survival!"

#155 sPaz (nice name :D)

What you describe is not omniscience. Omniscience would be "The string will first be a kite string, and then it will die." To say, instead: "The string might or might not be a kite string before it dies" is to imply limited omniscience (in other words, non-omniscience).

This is the ultimate paradox. If we can truly decide to be a kite string or a firecracker fuse, then we possess free will. If we possess TRUE free will, then God is not omniscient. If God is not omniscient, then God is imperfect. If God is imperfect... well... you get the idea.

If what we have is merely the illusion of free will (and I always keep in mind that science also has some theories on how causality and free will relate -- some incredible theories, about as far fetched as the God delusion, and just as thought-provoking), then what's the point?

Too many loose ends involved in every nook and cranny of every religion, for me to, in good conscience, even begin to comprehend those who blindly believe on faith (oh, and the historical documentary known as the New Testament ... chuckle chuckle) alone.

For me, science and observable, quantifiable, reproducible and logical theories, experiments and observations will always supercede those relatively baseless claims of "religion," based on faith alone.

Been a pleasure debating with you guys; I'll yield the floor now... vacation time :D have a most excellent next 7 days.

Coach....what do you have to say on today's comments, articles? I'd enjoy hearing your views.

#165: in what respect is science a moral system? I don't think it is, and I don't think that case can be made by anyone.

This is the fundamental point missed by all the people who ASSume that if you just eliminate religion, flowers will sprout up under our feet, and rainbows cross the sky--for purely material reasons, self evidently.

The moral domain is separate from the domain of science. One tells us what we ought to do, and how to direct our lives. The other tells us how to do what we choose to do with less effort, and greater success.

Just wanted to let everyone know that i made my own rings last weekend and they work awesomely. it cost me about $22 and took about an hour to make. they have a really good shape except that i got caught up watching the ucla game and one flattened a little on me, no biggie though. i just folowed the directions step by step that were in the forum and my rings came out great. i even got enough extra sand so i could make a couple wall balls this weekend. I think i'm getting as excited about making this stuff as i am about doing the WOD! Have a good day everyone.

Jake

#121, Louis, writes,

"The French, like every other country, will do what's in their best interest. If it helps them to help the Netherlands, then they will. If not, then they won't."

The French, like any other weak country will act from a position of weakness:

"The psychology of weakness is easy enough to understand. A man armed only with a knife may decide that a bear prowling the forest is a tolerable danger, inasmuch as the alternative — hunting the bear armed only with a knife — is actually riskier than lying low and hoping the bear never attacks. The same man armed with a rifle, however, will likely make a different calculation of what constitutes a tolerable risk. Why should he risk being mauled to death if he doesn’t need to?" Robert Kagan

I'm ready for this day! I've been hooked on crossfit for 1 week now but dang I'm sore. Much props too all of you who do this all the time. I'm gonna get there, but today is much needed for me. Can't wait to see tomorrow though!..I think I may have the same problem all of you guys have. Crossfitalism...at least it's a good disease to have.

#165

---
I have had discourse with many, including several posters on here, who have taken the question of free will and/or pre-destination quite literally. I feel people use this as a means of escaping blame or responsibility for their actions, or for the things that happen to them.
---

Yes, and usually after the fact. Still, in every major religion I can think of those actions would usually be in violation of their religious duty.

---
Someone who says "It's ok if I die; it's God's plan." is far more dangerous to themselves and to others than someone who says "Screw that plan; we're going to fight for our survival!"
---

Leave out the "God's plan" part of that and try to picture a fatalist whose world view isn't constrained by religious duty. I think that's a far more dangerous person. There are plenty of proponents of fatalism with a completely materialist argument.

The point is that the religion is not the dangerous part of that equation. Unconstrained fatalism is the dangerous part, and I don't see how that could be more dangerous coming from the godly than the godless.

Funny thing, I'm a practicing atheist but find myself in the awkward position of defending religion because I think that it continues to be an essential component of society. It happens often. I don't know how people can call themselves humanists and have so little regard for such a human(e) institution as a local church.

I have a kipping pullup!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The United Nations, the weak-kneed pantywastes that they are, condemned this film? Give me a break. The fundamentalist islamic reaction to this movie EXACTLY proves what this movie asserts, namely that Islam is being used to justify murderous threats, and other equally horrid things in this world.

Got kind of side tracked on my earlier comments by the interesting discussion taking place. Lots of good comments from lots of points of view.

Regarding "Fitna", watched it several times, thought it was good, and Mr. Wilders showed a tremendous amount of courage getting it out. Especially considering the fate of film producer and countryman, Theo van Gogh, who was murdered for expressing his views on Islam not all that long ago.

Decided to do a little work on my shoulder strength for active rest with overhead presses.

OHP 5 sets of 5 - 95 115 125 135 140pr

I think I will be ready to best my OHP single rep pr of 155 soon!

M/6'/50/195

Good on ya Camille! Congrats!

Now onto those pesky muscle ups!!

S/F

Worked on the muscle-up for an hour, earning myself some outstanding blisters!

box squat
2-2-2-2
165 lbs. quite deep

sumo stance stiff-legged deadlifts
1-1-1-1
345 lbs.

hang squat clean
1-1-1-1
125 lbs. with nice dime-sized blisters (ewww)

Parallettes - attempt presses to handstand: My best attempts were almost there, but at least my shoulder stand is rock steady.

Then, yesterday's WOD:
Five rounds for time of:
30 Glute-ham sit-ups
25 Back extensions

except that I mixed them up, and did 30 back-ex and 25 ghsu, and did it in 10:52. I am SO much fitter than I was 7 months ago when I couldn't even finish this workout, let alone almost get a press to handstand and do some great box squats as well!

Shouldn't we be rounding up the terrorists in our own country that are responsible for 9/11, rather than going into far-off-lands pursuing the wrong targets?

This isn't the first time they have attempted such feats, in the 1960's the Joint Chiefs of Staff came up with Operation Northwoods. An attack by US forces on US targets and then blamed on Cuba to garner support amongst the population for war on Cuba.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/northwoods.pdf

Time to wake up people.
9/11 Mysteries
http://tinyurl.com/jccrh
TerrorStorm
http://tinyurl.com/329lde

#172 Camille

Way to go on that Kipping pull-up! Congrats.

This link has the intro to the Muscle and Fitness article on Crossfit, a sample Crossfit workout etc.

http://web.muscleandfitness.com/feature/189

I'm a Christian and would not say I believe on blind faith. Logically, something doesn't come from nothing, order doesn't come from chaos. We live on a planet placed in space just far enough from our sun to grow our plants and give skin a sun tan. A little closer we'd burn, a little further we'd freeze. There are laws of physics pertaining to heat transfer, gravity, and light. Who made these laws? Not only this, but we have an inner knowledge of right and wrong. The Bible says that God's law was written on our hearts. The Bible has incredible insight into humanity, and has the ability to change lives. It's not all roses though. It has alot of tough words for us, including hypocritical Christians. The damage these people have done is incredible. Pick up a Bible and read it, I promise it won't hurt.

http://www.board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=21576

TO WATCH FITNA:

http://www.ajm.ch/wordpress/?p=1028

Hmm, Religious fervor & strife...Joy !

I say unto you that all the religious fundamentalists in the world should be gathered into one place and made to live together and do to unto each other whatever it is their God commands.

Peace out & Blessed Be.

xpaz

I don't see the value in bashing religion. Talking about the "God delusion" or calling religion baseless seems to suggest that the people who choose to believe in God or follow a particular faith are delusional. I'm not sure that is the path you want to be on. If it is so be it.

The bottom line is that I cannot prove that God exists and I also cannot prove that he does. If you can do either I would love to hear it. So in the meantime I won't call your theories, whatever they may be, baseless or delusional and I will do the same for those that choose to believe in God.

#136 mhlane

where's the painstorm 36? anyone know?

I was not impressed by the short movie, but I don't know why it was so controversial. I have to question the integrity and sense of people who tried to censor him for its content.

On the other hand, it goes without saying that I found a lot of parallels with members of other religion in the words of the militant Islamists.

My problem with the film is that it almost generalizes all Muslims as extremists. To insinuate that all or even most Muslims believe those things is absurd. Christians and Jews lived very well under the Turkish Empire and during the Arab occupation of Europe. Not perfect, but the Jews certainly lived better in Arab Spain than the Christian Spain which followed.

soccerman:
This latest PAINSTORM did not have a number for some reason, but since the last one was XXXV I would expect the one on the current Affiliate Blog page for today is XXXVI, but it was just not identified as such. It was a beast though, good luck.

... Mike

So, after looking at Eva for a good 30 minutes on the beach, I'm reading the posts about religious idiots wondering "what are these kids talking about?" I went back to the main page and looked at Eva for another 30 minutes. Can someone fill me in?

Thanks for the motivation Eva! I've shown everyone at work the video of your "Nate" workout. You have many fans.

#167 barry cooper

I never made a claim that science and morality were one in the same. However now that you have brought it up, I believe there is more evidence to indicate that our notions of morality are more instinctive, as a result of electrical and chemical signals within our brains, than there is evidence indicating that an entity inscribed them within our equally hypothetical "souls." Show me evidence of God that exists outside of the realm of "faith" and I will eat my words, I guess.

I also never claimed that the world would be perfect without religion. Religion gives many people reason to do good. In [my] perfect world, people would do good for the sake of doing good; because one does not wish harm visited upon him or herself, one should similarly not impose harm upon others. Common sense; not divinity; not science.

Once again, in the dawn of man, I imagine that mankind had no greater morality than a male lion who kills its neighbors cubs. Morality, I believe, is a side-effect of humanization and civilization, so as to prolong the existence of our species.

#165 RifRafBob

I agree with you to some degree. Religion is not solely to blame in and of itself. The fact, however, that religion can so easily be manipulated to excuse and justify the agendas of radicals (again, this same principle applies to any radical, religion aside) is what makes it so dangerous. And while people can be inherently good without religion, there would be such a huge amount of inherent evil removed from the world without it. This is not to say that people can't also be inherently evil without religion -- but at least it's one less excuse and/or justification. I believe religion is bad because it provides an easy, convenient, [illogically] defensible path towards radicalism and violence. At least radical patriotism is the "defense" of something tangible.

I have no hatred or ill-will towards the local churches, synagogues and mosques that preach messages of love, compassion and respect. The fact of the matter is, though, they could just as easily teach these essential human qualities without a deity's involvement whatsoever. I was raised without God's imposition in my life, despite the rest of my family's upbringing, and I turned out just fine ;)

#180 GroverL

Yes, I believe people are who outright believe (as in, they would stake their house, car, and family on it) in a greater being as is described in the Bible, or their choice of religious works, can be described as nothing other than delusional. I always thought that the Flying Spaghetti Monster theory would be enough to solve this issue, but I guess not. For those who don't know what this is:

http://www.venganza.org/ (work and family safe)

This includes my immediate family, who have all fallen under the spell. It's their right, and your right, to believe in such things, and I don't impose my views upon them (or anyone), unless asked.

Your arguments about how "logically, something does not come from nothing," how the laws of physics came to be, and how in the game of chance, Earth just happened to get lucky enough to magically sprout life, all sound good on paper. But think about it in these perspectives:

There are billions upon billions upon billions of galaxies. Meaning there are even more stars. Meaning there are even more planets. If the odds of life forming on Earth were 1 in 500 trillion, then in the scope of the Universe as a whole, the odds are probably pretty damn good.

People used to believe the waves in the ocean were generated by a God. They could not comprehend the pull of the Moon, the rotation of the Earth, or the existence of heavenly bodies outside of our own sphere. People used to believe the Sun was a moving chariot of fire across the sky. People used to come up with all sorts of Gods to explain the things that their current fact-base could not. Modern religion is no different.

Can we logically explain how existence began? No... not yet. Does a lack of current explanation suddenly warrant that we immediately conclude that it was created by God, without evidence? I can't understand that logic.

When science proved that the Earth wasn't 6,000 years old, suddenly the Bible was no longer talking in literal measures of time. When science creates new life, new matter, new particles, what then? What about when science clones a human being? What will be said of the "soul" then, if it can be so easily reconstructed in a petri dish?

I just think your (and our) LACK of understanding is no excuse to suddenly jump to the conclusion that it was God's doing. This seems primitive and barbaric to me.

I'm a practicing agnostic, not denying the existence of a greater power (whether it be a scientific, all-governing law of physics, or an actual entity), but certainly not accepting it or pursuing it, and definitely not able to understand those who do.

This is really thought provoking, and I'm glad that here no one has resorted to outright insults. I don't mean to insult the character of anyone who I've been talking to -- merely expressing my disagreement. If you take it as insult, I suppose that's your prerogative :)

New WOD coming up, so I apologize to anyone I may not respond to from here on out!

Regarding predestination/free-will/omniscience

One of the best explanations I have read is as follows (I can say it no better, so I quote):

"First of all, we must firmly set in our minds that God perceives all time and all eternity as one overall picture rather than a series of events or segments....

"Thus in God's omniscience, the past, the present, and the future are all equal realities. God sees the future as though it were happening in the present. But God does not necessarily directly CAUSE the event of the future to take place. God will never overstep man's free will; rather, looking ahead He can see what choice will be made and therefore pronounce that it will be so. Thus God's foreknowledge precedes predestination....

"...God's foreknowledge does not possess or force people into action in conformity with His will. God has complete foreknowledge of what people will choose by their own volition."

#120-Paul,
A good list of Atheists is at http://www.celebatheists.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

Also check out:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=fdVucvo-kDU

A good short film listing some rather well known Atheists and their accomplishments. Most we have all heard of....I bet the list would suprise some people though...In the world of debating between Atheists and believers, the arguement of Stalin, Hitler and a couple of others always comes up. Please keep in mind that Hitler first went after the gays, cripples and mentally retarded. Lots of people over the years have hated the jews in history...Hitler based his hate on creating the Aryan race and getting back at the world for losing the first world war......(going back)It is easy to say they were Atheists, and there for it lends to massive killings. That could really go as far as if a murderer has a mustache, does that mean all mustache wearers are killers? Obviously not...we all know that...The opposite happened, I believe, in the 17th century in Britian- the government ran the church of England, and the Gov. decided to change religions 4 times in a 100 year time period...and guess what, the people followed suit...The masses are like sheep...

Another idea to throw out there....If humans have been on this earth for 100,000-200,000 yrs, then why does God wait to intervene 2,000 yrs ago? Does he like watching our suffering and dying? Maybe thats why he created cancer and aids, floods and Katrina...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=b2f4heaG288
might shed some light into disasters and earthquakes....pretty funny actually...

And does one ever think that if the ten commandments were divinely written, they could have been written a little better or there might be 20, or 50 commandments? And if the Bible is so morally perfect, then why do most of us work or visit stores on sunday? We should actually be stoning people to death for working on the sabbath, right? Or stoning gays to death, or adulters, or women who are not a virgin on their wedding night....or maybe I am crazy and shouldn't base my morality on those books written in a time when an ax would have been a technological advance....

I mean if Jesus actually returns and the whole earth turns into fire and suffering and the Christians are swept away into heaven, then some people would actually see a Silver lining in this dooms day approach...I guess that would motivate a christian government to force the hands of an insane muslim based country to use its nuclear weapons....Lets hurry up and get to heaven....I can't wait, can you? oh and by the way- if you ever want to start anohter religion, just promise men that they will have 73 virgins upon their death....it'll beat the muslim 72, and we'll have plenty of converts....cause we all know how powerful a human sex drive is...bill clinton sure knows--"Who's gonna find out, pass the cigar sweetie!!"

Atleast we live in a country where blogs like this can take place....Thank you to our forefathers, and thanks for Coach Glassman to allow our ramblings..

And Mark Twain said:
I do not fear death, in view of the fact that I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.

"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring"--Carl Sagan

#177 Sam, you've got it. What we have here is a bunch of smoke and mirrors, while our freedoms are being whittled away into oblivion. We're "fighting for the freedoms of others" and losing ours in the process. It's all part of the plan, though.

didn't end up being much of a rest day. Started off just wanting to work on muscle ups, ended up doing more than that. Did 15 muscle ups when my buddy came over and had some course all set up.
10 wall balls 20#
15yd hand over hand sled drag 135#
5 tire flips with jump thru approx 400# tire
40yd farmers walk with 2pood kb each hand
10 60# sand bag cleans
400m row
15 walking lunges with same sand bag
20yd bear crawl
and finish off w/5 more tire flips
we each did 1rd for time to see what kind of work out it would be. my legs were smoked.
I tried to explain to him that rest day meant kicking back and taking it easy.

An ironical thing about this religion discussion is that hunter-gatherer societies don't have moralistic religion and manage to not kill each other off. In fact they live more peacefully than religious societies.

F/34/143/65"

No rest today 40:00 run - then some stretching - felt pretty good.

If you live in a glass house, do not throw stones.

Islam is NOT the only problem here.

PEOPLE by nature can be violent. Furthermore, the first people in the world to go on missions of CONQUEST and VIOLENT takeovers were the Semites. I am not anti-semite, I am just stating the fact. If you read history, it is true.

Look up Sargon the first. Lived around 2300 B.C. in Akkad.

The world's three major religions all have books with violence and death in them. If you do not think that the Bible has any death or violence in it, read it again. What did the Jews do to Jericho? What did the Jews do to any people that stood in their way?

What did Catholics do during the Spanish Inquisition?

Look in the mirror and judge yourself before you judge others.

I could keep on ranting...

Those who think I am full of it, fine. Read Joseph Campbell's works. Read works of history. You will find that I am correct.

Wow, all this and not one comment about how Eva looks like a dude. LOL sorry, Eva by the way I think you look great, but the last time your pic was up it was a rampant discussion about how un-feminine you appeared. LOL.
As for the the whole religious discussion, color me ignorant. I'm not a simple guy and don't pretend to be smarter than I am, and I know I can only make an impact in a small circle with some residual effect. But if one can say that any belief system that supports destruction of another simply because they don't agree well obviously has only the founders of that system in mind. By founders I mean anyone meant to benefit directly from its implementation, i.e. 20 virgins ( don't even know if that is true, but I heard it was )
I'm not even saying Christianity is perfect I'm sure there are some goof ups in translation somewhere along the way, and that someone got a hold of something and did a little twisting. But my granpa said take it for what it means to you, it is a road map to your life so just listen. And that has always served me well enough.

Sargon doesn't scare me. Mostly because he and his religion are dead. However, there are currently Muslims wanting to implement Sharia in Europe, and with the Europeans inability--unwillingness--to continue to believe in life enough to reproduce at a rate equal to that needed to maintain their populations, they will be overtaken by the Muslims within a couple decades, in my understanding. Certainly, Muslims will be such a force that if they have full rights, the face of all European societies will be radically changed, if they don't force assimilation now.

Tkeelah,

You should have read my posts from the last Rest Day. I offered the simple principle that you can define leftists by what they accuse others of. You will note that I am defending my positions at length, using both logic and commonly available facts. You are calling me a loon. No doubt in your world that does make you right. We can agree on that.

With respect to free will, it is always interesting to me that atheists take the time to dabble in Christian theology. One wonders what satisfaction they might be deriving from manipulating linguistic symbols whose referents they don't believe in. Self evidently, their intent is to damage religious faith, and to provide ammunition to their fellow travellers. Nothing good, in my view, comes from this.

Moreover, their theology is sloppy, and their positions inflexible, and lacking in the suppleness needed for such a large issue. This is necessitated by the very mindset of the dogmatic atheist, who thinks in very simple, black and white terms, and who uses those very simple black and white terms to demonize religion for thinking in very simple black and white terms. The irony, of course, is lost on them. Irony is only possible for people who are not True Believers, and forms of humor other than crass cruelty only possible for those capable of happiness outside of destruction.

Still, I'll take the free will issue on. Here's the crux: we appear to be free. Any or all of you could have chosen to say something other than you did. In order to determine the degree of our freedom not just from predestination, but biological, genetic determinism--in which most of you atheists likely believe, again proving what we might term my "projective" axiom--we would need to be external to our human system. You cannot adequately define the limits of the system from within the system. This is likely a mathematic axiom, although in this case this is my considered view, nothing more or less.

Given that we cannot determine the limits of our freedom, any ideas we form which limit that freedom are at least potentially decreasing our freedom unhelpfully, and in no cases increasing it. For example, if I decide I am "meant" by biology to be fat, and act in such a way that I become and stay fat, then I have used an idea to limit my potential to be trim and fit. I have decreased my freedom.

Much of our modern evil has come from the notion that good and evil are contingent on habit, and not ingraineed in the Universe, as religion claims. Therefore acts of evil are acts of freedom, itself understood to be good. The entire Communistic project--and associated torture, mass imprisonment, starvation, and murder of many 10's of millions of people--rested on the rejection of all forms of morality outside of the goal of "liberating" the "workers". Communists lie, cheat and steal, and as long as it is done by the State, and not by the people, it is moral. Why? Because outside of habit, there is no morality.

Ideas matter, and our educational system is failing us, not least by failing to teach the simple and obvious fact that the Chinese alone killed a multiple of the people murdered by Hitler, and accomplished nothing. Communism is 10 times more evil than Fascism ever was.

One in the hopper, but I forgot a caveat. You have to have an organizing principle for thinking about life. We appear to be free, so we may as well work to think in an orderly about what to do with that freedom. Ultimately, what makes life worthwhile are affects, feelings.

There are qualities of feelings. On the low end, you have the exceedingly transitory excitements of dorm room hookups, facilitated by biologistic, neoFreudian ideas consigning us to the level of intelligent animals. I was reading the other day that the new thing is coed dorm rooms. Boy one bed, girl other bed. And my thought was that Orwell was right, that a goal of the State--and the Politically Correct students working to enact 1984 here--is not the elimination of sex, but the elimination of the pleasure of sex. Sex without love is onanation with a partner. With love, it is a beautiful thing, and it is a recorded fact that "right wing" Christians have the best love lives. They trust one another.

On the high end of happiness there are feelings like pride in accomplishment, contentment in life, and a pervasive sense of personal harmony and congruence.

I have developed a revised Will to Power. My Will to Power is the power of living happily with nothing. If the goal is a smile on your face, and the capacity to truly, deeply enjoy small things, then you need very little. If you need very little, you are powerful. This is good, and the root of Goodness, and Godliness, for those who are believers.

This power, however, cannot be forced. It must arise spontaneously from the heart, and can only be summoned through ethical clarity, strength of will, and freedom.

Stuart,

I am fairly certain that few people will read this at this point but I will say what I have to say anyway.

You said "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones". Are you implying that the Christians of today shouldn't criticize Islamic Extremeists because 500 years ago Christians made similiar mistakes? I don't think that is a very strong arguement. We can't change the past but we can try and stop the atrocities that are happening today.

Two long ones in the hopper. I'm quite wordy lately.

I did want to return to the topic, though, and point out that moderate Muslims are every bit as victimized by the nuts as Westerners, and likely much more. Who did the Taliban wreak most of their violence on? Afghanis. Who does most of the dying in Iraq? Iraqis.

Most people like to sing, dance, paint, sculpt, drink, watch TV, read western books, and go to the theater. They are kept from doing so in countries overrun with fanatics mainly through violence.

I think the analogy with Communism is good. The Party members fare well, but everyone else is crushed under foot, supposedly for their own good.

JayH, are you talking about the tribes in Africa, that regularly war with and slaughter each other?

Worked on Push Presses at Brand X.

Push Press 5-5-5-5-5

Warm up with 45#

85#
90#
95#
100#
105#

I think my previous with 100 was 3 reps. 95# is my previous 5 rep max I believe but I haven't done 5's in a long time.

Watch out for all those methodist suicide bombers! And of course there was no warfare on the planet until the Jews showed up.

Barry-are you sure you aren't eating too many mushrooms? Yes, you are more than wordy and you are mixing a few facts with many assumptions. I don't disagree with some of your comments, communism, fascism, etc. But I suspect there is more biased opinion than facts. I am sure you are a good person and I bet you are a mean athlete. But, fella, come on, let's stick to reality. Step out of that box and recognize that not everyone is like yourself or has to be for this country to be great. Instead of babbling your opinions, take some time to listen. Wow, I don't know what else to say. See a therapist?

Barry 200, 201, 203,

The sort of admirable “will to power” you describe resonates with me personally as based on a very rational, secular-humanist and stoic system of values. It seems to me one of the great things about the US Constitution, and the tone of the debates related to the 1786-7 Convention (sharing much with what are in my mind the best strains of western intellectual history) was the ability of the participants to speak about political organization, individual liberty, and personal values, in such a way as to remove (for the most part) overt references to religion, while at the same time addressing citizen’s personal values on a level deep enough to satisfy their religious impulses.

It seems to me these men understood that in an open society what matters is behaviour, not belief. Only when divergent beliefs lead to seriously irreconcilable behaviours, do beliefs endanger the body politic and its individual citizens. I agree with you that there are some atheists and agnostics who take on religious arguments in order to damage the religious faith of others. But there are also those who take them on because they fear the ways in which religious discourse can (but need not) be counterproductive for, or downright hostile to, a free society when it frames issues in the civil/political sphere. There are obvious connections between a given theological theory of the nature of free will and a criminological theory of punishment, or a sociological theory of wealth redistribution etc. Imagine I favour a strict penal code and minimal wealth redistribution, and I base these beliefs on a more fundamental belief in the essential voluntary character of human action. Now if I discuss criminal sentencing and tax policy with someone who believes the opposite, and who grounds his or her beliefs in a deterministic ontology, we can have fruitful debate and even approach a liveable solution (though we may never agree), so long as we let things like facts, or data, or research, or financial interest, act as our arbiter. But if, at some point, either of us says: “I believe X, because it is my religious conviction”, then there is no basis for further discussion. The earlier on in the conversation that happens the more destructive it is of productive discourse, and the more likely it is we will resort simply to declaring loyalties, and ultimately, to putting up our fists. It seems to me that the degree to which a theist can discuss, advocate, implement, and enforce policies without mentioning his or her God, is the degree to which (more or less) he or she can contribute to the open society. Those who inject their God into their arguments early on tend to corrupt the public sphere, diminish individual liberty, and scare those who don’t believe in a God, (or a particular God, or a particular God in a particular way). Those who would have religious priorities guide public discourse diminsh the openness of civil society and erode individual liberty [and what’s bad for individual liberty (if you believe what Coach van Hayek has to tell us) is bad for business].

The point is for civil society to declare its values at its boundaries, to say: “beyond this point you cannot go.” When civil society says: “we are working toward this (collectivization, racial purity, the general will, Godliness etc)”, then it tends toward totalitarianism.

Way to go on the mp4 video. Direct download with iPod touch.

Yach! Are you guys still arguing?

tkeeloh-why don't you ignore the guy like everyone else and maybe he will go away? Geez.

MikeyP: that's funny. You don't seem to realize I don't go away. However, if you are asking ME to go away, and my projective axiom is correct, I don't expect to see much more of you.

Tkeeloh: are you incapable of grasping that you are whining and I am debating, and the two are fundamentally different?

Prole: that's reasonable. What I think you are missing, though, is that ALL human discourse originates in foundational understandings of the nature and purpose of life. For that reason, it was not possible in 1776 and it is not possible now for religious understandings not to find expression in public life.

You are in effect arguing that religous people--since their beliefs are based on faith in very old books written in other languages--are somehow to be presumed to be less rational than people whose faith rests upon the shaky and everchanging basis of scientific discovery and method. I don't see it. John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, even Thomas Jefferson, all of them were believers of one sort or another. Franklin and Washington were Masons. Adams was a very pious Christian. Jefferson was in most respects a hypocrite, but does seem to have had a Deistic and not an atheistic understanding of the universe.

The point is not to keep religious language and ideas from the public space. It is to keep them from being forced on others. To return again to today's topic, the very point of Islamic extremism is to destroy utterly not only the division of Church and State--and to do so in formerly liberal nations like Holland--it is to compel belief in a very narrow and likely unKoranic interpretation of proper behavior. In this respect, we might see in Islamic extremism the precise inversion of our liberal society, which makes leftist support of our enemies all the more ironic, and contradictory.

I had more to say, but have things to do.

I suppose we all should, Mikey P. However, I think that my "projective axiom" is correct-Barry will continue to vomit diarrhea from his mouth onto his keyboard regardless of ignoring him!

tkeeloh -

I noticed you list atheism as one of your interests on your blog, but you list your Zodiac year and your astronomical sign. Do you know what atheism is?

Oh my gosh! It says I was born in the Chinese year of the Horse too! That must make me a communist and I don't even know it!! And I hate horses!

I see your handlers pointed out your error. Self evidently, you are putting your candidate in a bad light, so you needed to backtrack. Makes sense. I would have told you to do the same, Comrade.

If you ever care to do anything other than insult me, I'd be happy to debate actual facts.

"Christians and Jews lived very well under the Turkish Empire and during the Arab occupation of Europe."

Except the million plus Armenian Christians who were either slaughtered or forced into exile by the crumbling Ottoman empire in the pursuit of Turkish nationalism.

CCT Joey:

Just because those people are in Africa doesn't make them Hunter/Gatherers. The hunter/gatherers from Africa, the !Kung, were from Southern Africa. A very peaceful people with no moralistic style of religion that plagues those regions you speak of. Last time I studied these people they were moved off of their lands and onto 'reservations' where they live a more modern way of life.

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