been blowing up my kbs lately good vids.

Thank God. I'm brand spankin' new to CF and these past two days have destroyed my upper body!

I am also new and my whole body is sore! Thanks for a break Coach!

playing catch up....been being a slug past two days. tomorrow should be fun!

Thanks for the kb videos. Great stuff.

As much as I need the rest days, I think it hurts me more to let a day go by without training than it does to beat he hell out of myself at the gym. It's break week. Next day back will be the 12th. Damn.

I love crossfit but the constant barrage of politically biased articles, specifically from the Wall Street Journal in this case,is a travesty. Attempting to align the honor of our soldiers with the ideology of the Wall Street elite is unjustifiable. Their rhetoric may sound pro-military but is only dissembling their pro-profit interests that come from both the deaths of percieved enemies and our own troops. Let's stick with the WODs and leave the simple minded propaganda with the Bush administration.

Did well with the push jerks ending with 265#. I was proud till I browsed Youtube and watched these guys powering 300, 400, 500. Instantly humbled.

Anyway, it was dedicated to a few Crossfit friends. I posted the 265.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOWIe3QaysM

till next time,
Paul

I am sore :)
Been travelling so no fast easy access to CFsite
so workouts the last few days been as follows:

Sun: Mini Bear + Mini Joshie
Mon: Mini Bear + Fran
Tues: 300 workout
and miscellaneous extra sets of benches & cleans

My buddy is loving it, can't do a pull up yet, but he's all gung ho on the reverse chins :)

This is good, 'cause I can work on some strength and skills specifically tomorrow.

I'm also having my warrant and NCOIC bring in some dumbells to work tomorrow, so I can introduce them to the pain that is Joshie...

#7 Amen to that brotha

Robb Wolf is the man!

Casey from ninja turtles! I've been saying for the last few kb videos who does this guy remind me of? Thats it!

#7. Yeah you're right. We shouldn't read politically biased articles, especially when they directly apply in a major way to current events. We should just bury our heads in the sand and wait for Friday's workout.

#7
Unless you're new, you know that WOD days are for exercising your body and rest days are for exercising your mind here at Crossfit. Why don't you try it? My guess is that any article that doesn't lean left will be "politically biased" in your book, true or not. Why not think about how the news from Iraq is almost nil now, compared to before and during the first waves of the insurgency. Iraq is no where near the political topic for the presidential candidates that it was supposed to be. Why do you think that is? I'm not saying that I believe this war was managed intirely perfectly, but if you want to speak of unjustifiable, reference the constant attempts by the media to cast our fine soldiers as failures at every turn, and rarely, if at all, reporting on the numerous successes. Then contrast that information, as the article did, with how they did the same thing in V.N., in order to sway public opinion to their liking. Can we not agree that the same thing is happeining all over again?

my shoulders, stomach, triceps and back are happy

You know, instead of offering your disdain for the article, you could put up a counter argument to it. You know, defending your disdain. It might prove more beneficial and stimulating than calling it propaganda with some arguments to why it is propaganda. . . .

I have been using a steel weight set I found on Craig's list for $100 and dropping it on double thick horse stall mats. I thought about an inch of rubber on the floor would protect the bar. It did, until tonight. The sleeve cracked in half when I failed and dropped a push jerk.
I finally sucked it up and ordered a real bar and bumpers, as I should have done at the very beginning.

Great article. Sadly I think that it holds true today. We hear far too little from most of the media about our military's success and far too much about the "success" (if you can call a suicide bombing a success) of the insurgency. It'd be nice if the liberal media could pull its head out of its ass and back up our troops over there. I'm not asking for one-sided reporting, but at least give us a fighting chance.

Oh man. I promised myself that I'm going to stick to the 3 days on one day off starting this cycle. I'm bummed that tomorrow is a rest day. It's not going to be easy. Maybe I'll go for a run!

Fine follow-up article to 080126 Rest Day. I read the paper this morning and thought to myself ('cause I sometimes do that): Hmmm, wonder if Coach got his WSJ this AM?

Late in that last thread I asked a question that I will pose earlier here: Why is it Viet Nam that is the standard comparison to Iraq/Afghanistan? Why is it not Korea? Why is the outcome of the Korean Conflict not the desired, stated goal of this conflict? Why are we not harkening back to the lessons of Korea rather than persisting in this seemingly obligatory rehash of Viet Nam, with so many pundits insisting that we shoehorn this conflict into that box?

I contend that Viet Nam and Korea were essentially identical conflicts on the ground right up until we removed our last significant troop deployment from Viet Nam, identical in context, battle (Korean winter notwithstanding), and military result. Generals are often accused of fighting "the last war" instead of the current one. My suggestion is: Why not?

#7 Mickey, I am always fascinated when people want to talk about the "Wall Street elite" as if they are, somehow, any different than the "liberal elite" who run amok on college campuses and places of supposed "higher learning".

The first group is, I suppose, figure-headed by George Bush, who acts as a political lightning rod for the left. But, don't think for one minute that the second group, nominally represented by Hilary Clinton, is any better.

Frankly, as a former soldier, I much prefer the attitude that the right wing seems to have...being that they at least have respect for the common soldier and find him (or her)useful. It's a far cry from having some academic snob look down his nose at you and regard you as something less than he would scrape off of his shoe.

Although I consider the vast majority of politicians worthless, it has always been the conservative, right wing that has supported the soldiers. The left has always seen fit to merely spit upon them, and claim moral superiority. And the media, in general, has always been more than willing to adopt that viewpoint as well.

So, in essence, it really isn't "simple minded propaganda". It's just a viewpoint that contradicts what you happen to believe. And your failure to see that shows me how "simple minded" you actually are.

That's okay, though. You and the rest of the sheep out there can go back to your grazing. The other sheepdogs and I will keep the wolves at bay for you.

i like the picture on the right.

Had to take off the push jerk WOD to do two (2) hours of CrossFit snow shoveling! We had 14 1/2 inches in less than 24hours here in Milwaukee. It sucks. Looking forward to the rest day!

#15 - I agree with what you said and it saddens me that such an important world crisis can be brought down to simple politics and rhetoric. This is an exceptionally complex war because the enemy is unlike any other we have ever fought but we are the exact same. We need to adapt to the proper perspective for this endevour to work. This isn't a country of soldiers that fight simply because their government tells them to. This is an organization of people that is bent on our (and our allies) total annihilation. It is an enemy that isn't going to be sitting at a table to sign a peace accord with us anytime soon because it isn't a war for land, or money, or oil as so many would like to categorize it as but a battle of ideologies. Liberal Western thought and tolerance over strict religious (albeit faulty religious) doctrine.

#7
Would it make you feel better if the articles were written by the Marine hating people of Berkeley? How about if you just enjoy the fact that Crossfit is provided FREE to you and that the people who give up THEIR time every day to provide YOU with an incredible amount of FREE knowledge are doing so out of the goodness of their hearts? If the articles were written with a left-leaning slant I would do nothing but ignore them and push through the WOD's much like I'm going to ignore you........

i am a little late but here is my Joshie time:
39:25
L pullpus with the rings
left arm snatches w/35lbs
right arm snatches w/ 20lbs due to bad shoulder injury.

this one made me almost quit but i thought abot who it was from and what he gave up so i couldnt quit.

my snatch form sucks. any suggestions?

#15 - another possible reason Iraq isn't being covered by the media as much is viewer burn out. The media -all media regardless of right or left slant- covers what sells. people are tired of hearing about Iraq. If it doesn't sell, it doesn't get covered.

Also, it seems crazy to me that anyone would believe the media has an agenda other than to sell their product. As a result, they cover what people are interested in buying. you do realize that "the media" wouldn't be saying anything if people weren't buying it?

But I have a real question: WHAT SPORT DO YOU PLAY? Not you #15, just in general. Do people on this board participate in sports or are most people just gym rats.

Caveat: I personally consider the military/police personnel etc to be participating in a sport called life or death, so that answers my question for that group, which I know is on this board.

#7
There is a comment under the article that reads
"Post thoughts to comments" It does not read, "Post Right-wing thoughts to comments" or "Post Left-wing thoughts to comments."
Take the article for what is it, it does not ask you to agree with it. It simply gives you something that might make you think and look at things differently, right or wrong.
Write something intelligent, such as an argument, not a whiny response about how you dislike the political stance of certain people. Try to make us more understanding of your opinions, don't fuel our dislike for whiners.

Nice angle on the picture on the right,

#7, I think the best thing for you to do is say you don't agree with this article and you think it's propoganda and leave it at that. When you tell the website owner it's okay for him to give you a free WOD but it's not okay for him to post any ideas he has or articles he likes, it makes Bush-haters like you and me look like a bunch of wussies.

so i didnt have time to do yesterdays workout 2/4/08. should i do that one today and not rest until the next rest day?

I don't think anyone can argue that the Wall Street Journal's editorial page leans significantly to the right. Nor is it really in dispute that the majority of political articles posted here on rest days are also significantly slanted towards a right-wing point of view.

Furthermore, arguing that the left wing is "out to get" our military, downplay their accomplishments, skills, or successes, and so on -- generally implying a lacking patriotism on the part of those holding left-wing points of view -- is not good arguing practice. To do this is to demonize your opponent instead of arguing actual points. It is a fallacy of thought and an indication of a feeble mind, not worthy of attention or response.

Now that we've gotten the preliminaries out of the way...

This article rehashes a common argument of a neoconservative point of view, which is that it was the failure of media and anti-war forces at home that caused our eventual failure in the Vietnam War. This is analogous to the so-called "Dolchstosslegende" put forward by the Nazis in 1930s Germany, who argued that it was disloyal politicians who had "stabbed the nation in the back" and caused them to lose WWI when by rights Germany should have been victorious. (Dolchstosslegende literally means "dagger-stab-legend" in German.) This legend (which was entirely fabricated by the Nazis) was used to draw Hitler to power and then prepare Germany for World War II. Similarly, it has provided a groundwork for the neoconservative political movement to downplay the negatives of the Vietnam War, especially in the run-up to the Iraq War in 2002 and 2003. The Tet Offensive is often used as a key point of this argument, as in this WSJ article.

It is important to note, however, the lessons of the Tet Offensive to modern counter-insurgency theory. While the US crushed the Tet, it occurred immediately following a huge string of US victories. It demonstrates to modern military leaders a key feature of occupation theory and counterinsurgency warfare -- that the enemy, no many how many body blows are dealt to it -- can still respond effectively and keep fighting, even if their chances of a traditional "victory" are practically non-existent.

This is what was seen in Iraq during most of 2006 and early 2007: Even though US and British forces remained in solid control of areas they occupied, they were unable to root out insurgent forces on an effective, long-term basis. Proponents of Pres. Bush's "surge" strategy argue that the increase in deployment numbers has reversed this trend and point to decreasing violence levels as proof.

I would argue that the Tet Offensive history lesson teaches us exactly the opposite. We know that any reasonably extensive insurgency movement can keep operating nearly indefinitely, even waging large-scale offensives in the face of severe losses, as was the case when the VC launched Tet. The key in Iraq's military progress remains General Petraeus' counterinsurgency strategy, specifically two elements:

1) The standing-down of the Sadr militias and affiliated parties, ordered by Muqtada al'Sadr in 2007 and not yet rescinded. This takes a huge number of somewhat anti-American and VERY anti-Sunni paramilitary forces out of play.

2) The partnership of the U.S. military forces with various Sunni groups that were previously parts of the insurgency.

I argue that these are the most significant reasons for the downtrend in violence, and that should either evaporate, it will be evident that the surge alone was not responsible for very much of the lowered violence in Iraq at all, and that we will see more demonstrations analogous to Tet: That the insurgency can continue indefinitely no matter the military losses inflicted on it by occupying forces.

Interesting article...
It seems there were only a few people that had a relatively unbiased flow of information during Vietnam.
It does over simplify the complexities of war, however.
In regards to current conflicts, there seems to be similarities to Vietnam. The common ground appears to be that there, again, are few people getting an unbiased look at what's going on. Even the big man in Iraq (David Petraeus) said that they won't know they've reached a certain level of security until months later.
In previous conflicts, the US was fighting an actual army (most of the time)...where now, the US is fighting people of all different descriptions that are branded what the organization that went about murdering them wants to call them. 'Terrorist', 'al Qaeda', or 'the Enemy'...
If a foreign power occupied your towns, states/provinces and country, would YOU collaborate with the force that was occupying? Sure, one could use some "but they attacked first" reasoning...who attacked first? Iraqis? Taliban? Nope...
I'm thinking that if my neighbours to the south (US) wanted to step up so called 'homeland security', they should be looking at the 'homeland'. How many militias exist? How many 'compounds' exist? We're talking hundreds if not thousands of people armed like infantry (at least), inside US borders with passports and such, teaching the next generations their brand of poison...yet because they are 'Christians', they are automatically good-people. Those people over there, in Iraq, dying from American bullets, aren't all zealots sworn to destroy the infidel...they're desperate people driven to attacking their occupiers following nearly 5 years of violence.
So, now, the problem presents it self...what now? Well...I think that's for another rest-day.
So that everyone is clear, I support the armed forces personnel (US, Canada) fighting 'over there' in a very unconventional war while I complain about it. What I don't support is the machine that put those fine people in harms way all the while spreading lies to reasonable people on CNN, Fox and CSPAN (WMD, the 'collapse' of WTC7, molten steel at WTC1&2, the big hole where flight93 was supposed to be, the lack of a plane at the Pentagon)...We've been lied to...the inaccuracies/inconsistencies are there...
Quite a tangent, but, it’s a rest day :)

#25
With respect, brother, I've grown tired of the "CrossFit is a free service, so keep your opinions to yourself!" argument. This point-of-view mainly surfaces when anyone posts a remotely liberal comment on the board.

While I do not agree with #7's post, I also do not feel compelled to share someone's political leanings simply because I agree with their fitness philosophy. I hope you'd agree that these two things can be mutually exclusive.

For every over-the-top liberal rant, there's a CrossFit counterpart like a past WOD photo in which a CrossFit-clad gentleman taunted a group of anti-war protesters. Hard to tell which activity was more fruitless.

Meanwhile, the rest of us just want to exercise.

#32 - AMEN.

#31 Tenacious R: Does that mean you didn't work out at all today because you didn't have time? If that's the case do yesterdays workout today and count yesterday as your rest day!

I'm sorry to post this in the context of what appears to be a very heated Rest Day discussion. However, the message board response time is often very slow, so here goes.

I'm thinking of purchasing a set of the Wright Excercise Equipment bumber plates, as advertised on the garage gym store. 2 questions.

1. The less expensive the bumpers the thicker the plates come, this set is no exception with 3.4" width for the 45's.....I plan to use this set for all my CF needs, are these bumpers too bulky for oly lifts? it seems like a lot more lateral volume, i just cant image a 225 clean and jerk with something that beefy

2. Any short reviews of this product?

I agree with #7 but I also agree with #25. Its a free site they or he can post whatever they want as long as its in good context. I can understand why they post military related issues for the ROD (read of the day) because a lot of the people on crossfit are in some sort of military service. I used to think like #7 and couldn't imagine anyone READING on a work out site. But then I came addicted to the site and log on just to press every blue hyper-link thats new.

Every article will be politically biased, depending on who you ask. Get over it. CrossFit isn't endorsing anything, one way or the other. The articles aren't posted under the pretext that "This is true; read it." They're posted for conversation's sake.

If you're not going to provide a counter-argument, then there's really no point to your posting. No one says you have to agree with it. No one says you have to disagree. No one even says you have to read it.

If you have a problem with the WSJ in particular, I guess that's between you and their editors.

As for the article: It really makes me wish I knew a lot more about Vietnam. Everything I know is reconstructed from bits of the History channel and Full Metal Jacket (by no means the best sources for information). Very interesting perspective, nonetheless, and particularly relevant to today's issues, depending on how you look at it.

# 32,

It is fantastically ironic for one concerned with "good arguing practice" to deploy, in the next breath, the cheapest of cheap rhetorical tricks: a tendentious comparison to Hitler and the Nazis. Fallacious, feeble, and unworthy of response? Indeed.

Thank you for the article. I enjoyed it.

I think one vital thing is missing from this conversation about the Vietnam War: the people's voice. During the Vietnam War is when Americans realized that we had been at war for quite a while; maybe not constantly but intermittently enough to form a pattern in the human mind. Since WWII we were constantly dealing with flare ups world wide causing a state of paranoia and fear (i.e Korea, Greece, Turkey, Hungary, China, McCarthyism). American people entered Vietnam with a positive outlook, but as more and more Americans gained access to televisions with live video broadcasts then opinions started to change. They could see what was going on with their own two eyes rather than relying on newspapers or radio.

There is a great piece done by Morley Saefer (spelling??? 60 Minutes guy) when he was a young 26-year-old reporter seeing some of his first action. In the video he is absolutely dumbfounded by what he sees some American soldiers doing; rooting out supposed VC in a town with very few males. While there, all the houses and surroundings were burnt and Saefer narrates the activities and is absolutely lost for words. He, at the time, looked as if he did not know how to respond. When Americans at home saw that how could some opinions not be swayed? They had been living in fear of a Communist threat, and now the war in which they were engaged to supposedly dim the threat was earning them 10's of thousands killed while women and children from South Vietnam were being burned out of their homes. They failed to see the threat. We were tired, and call me a wimp or what-have-you, but I understand their situation.

Matters were not helped at all, by the reports that the military was giving. Death tolls that didn't reflect reality, heart warming stories of soldiers on the front line (or back) that deafened the screams of what was happening in the "junk".

I sort of look at it like this: fault the media for not doing outright and honest reports (this applies in many, MANY situations), but give credit to Congress for listening to the will of the American people.

#32 - that is exactly what I was going to say, but my shoulders/arms/hands are too tired.

An obvious theme in the article and in this message board discussion is the relationship between how Vietnam ended and how things may end similarly in Iraq.

my question is: what repercussions have we seen from leaving Vietnam directly? I know about Cambodia, and the unification of the two Vietnams and I understand all that, but I am talking about a direct impact on Americans. I don't see one, though I am not fully versed in this topic. All I know is that I have been to Vietnam and Cambodia, and I was welcomed with unmatched kindness and warmth. I prey for 10% of their kindness when I fly back into an American city.

Now I will say that I do not expect that same reaction from an American-deserted Iraq. However, was that popular thought following our pull-out from Vietnam?

Yeah Alison/#20, I did not do yesterdays workout, so then i just do 4 days of work right?

#40 - The point of the article is that Americans were indeed viewing live TV broadcasts. That and Morley's 'dumbfounded' reporting were exactly the problem. The average fat, dumb American knows nil about the atrocities of war, and even less about the tactics used during a successful. Where were the TV cameras (and Jane Fonda) during the Southeast Asian massacres that followed the U.S. pullout?

Here's a question for everybody: Why should I care if we "won" or "lost" the war in Vietnam?

And here's an even more pressing question: Why should I care if we "win" or "lose" the war with Iraq?

What will I lose if "we" lose? What will you lose if "we" lose?

I think that if we are going to spend time arguing about an issue, it should be an issue that affects us. Would somebody who believes that this is an important topic please show me it's relevance--that is, winning and losing the wars in Iraq and Vietnam.

Tom, I know you're joking right? A plant to get the discussion moving along?

Instability in the Middle East is bad. Islamic Extremists want you and I dead. Period. There is no reconciliation, there is no let's all live together in harmony. D-E-A-D! And when they have places that they can train, and plan and launch their destructive plots, the farther they can reach.

If this topic isn't of interest to you, then you can join the other half of the American public that forgot the lessons of 9/11 and join in the fight against Starbucks not to raise the price of their coffee.

#7 - - Have you ever served in our military, if not, you have no real opinion on what we do in the warzone. If you haven't been here, you don't have a clue.
I serve and am proud to serve. I volunteered to come to Afghanistan. We (US Military) have not lost a battle in Iraq or in Afghanistan. All I see on the news is that we are losing Afghanistan back to the Taliban, it is not true! The Taliban have not made a comeback of great signifigance and only hold small towns of peasants. Once we retook Um Quasa from the Taliban, attacks have diminished significantly. The spokesman from the Taliban reported before winter that they would fight throught the cold and not retreat to Pakistan. Not true...they run scared across that border, like scalded dogs.

#45 (Tom), I hope you are joking...it is because of our political retreat from Vietnem that started us on this path...Pres. Clinton having us go to Somalia with no clear cut reason and guidance, then just leaving pushes the issue further. Foreign terror regimes believe if they cause enough American bloodshed on the news, we will leave any fight. I served this country for 17yrs and after being in over 12 countries, they understand power and stability. Many of these countries see leaderships come and go, usually due to a coup (violently). The surge has been dynamic and has brought stability to much of Iraq. Continued improvement and stabilizing policies will bring victory and peace.

God i hope they dont raise the price of starbucks anymore, gas is ok, but coffee? sheesh.

You should switch to Seattle's best. It's....the best.

hey guys i jammed my right ring finger 3 weeks ago and havent been able to work out since..i still cant make a fist that well...went to the hospital they said it was just a sprain..anyone been thru this? how do i heal quicker...i can do push ups and kinda dips but thats about it...anybody with any solid advice? any remedies to heal it quicker/.???

(#46) Yes, those were serious questions--questions that have not been answered yet.

You are correct. Islamic extremists want us dead. OK. Are you saying they will kill me if we lose the war? Will they kill you if we lose the war? In other words, are we all (all U.S citizens) going to die if we lose? I don't think so. And if no reconciliation is possible, if people cannot live together peacefully, as you say, what are we fighting for? What do we have to do to win? What does winning mean?

This topic interests me a great deal. You could say I have something invested in this war. It is because of my personal investment that I ask these questions.

Anyone ever see the documentary "Spin"?

Check it out here:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=411888315354425208

Wall Street Journal is a joke. Especially now that Rupert Murdoch owns it.

(#48) I agree with you. If attacked, we must respond. Our failure to respond decisively in the past may have fed the belief that the US is weak and, therefore, resulted in additional attacks. I also agree that the surge has brought additional stability and hope. But what are our criteria for victory? And how long will the ensuing peace last?

Should the US approach in Iraq be the model for future US generations faced with similar circumstances?

First, I must preface that these are my personal observations, and I am in no way authorized to make statements for the United States Marine Corps or Government.

I've spent the past 12 months in Fallujah, Iraq, and while I've been posted onboard super-FOB (Forward Operating Base) Camp Fallujah, we've witnessed an unbelievable drop in violence levels from last February. While the details are classified, attack levels have dropped from hundreds a day to periods where we have 2-3 days in a row without a kinetic enemy action or attack. Citizens are reporting IED (Improvised Explosive Device) and cache locations, and the Iraqi Army and Iraqi Police are taking over the lead in operations throughout Al Anbar.

That is ground truth, coming to you from inside the beast. Take it for what you will.

Seriously, fellas...We should be able to distinguish criticisms of the strategic blunder of invading Iraq from criticisms of our troops (and before anyone asks, yes I have served in the military). Afghanistan, however, is another issue. We made the right call in removing the Taliban regime. But the justifications for the war in Afghanistan simply do not apply to Iraq. That is, Iraq was a war of choice and Afghanistan was not. And serious arguments can be made that our removing Saddam has not helped our security situation. But regardless of all of these issues, questioning the wisdom of our foreign policy should not equate to slandering the troops. Soldiers do not make policy; they execute it. I question our decision to invade Iraq. I would never question the valor and bravery of our troops.

Hey Evan: that sucks. My advice is don't mess with it and workout around it. There are lots of things you can do until you can use your poor little finger again. Squat and lunge like crazy, do sit ups back extensions blah blah.. you know the deal.

Tenacious R: Why does everyone LOVE StarYUCKS so much?! We all know Dunkin' Donuts coffee is the best. come on ;)
After traveling with startbucks junkies for 10 days I don't think I can even look at a cup of that stuff for at least a few weeks. They even got off the highway at a random exit and drove in circles for 30 minutes hunting for a "bucks". I couldn't believe it.

#51 - I have had multiple sprained fingers (courtesy of a wild training partner in Krav Maga). If you ice it thoroughly within a couple of hours, it swells a lot less, and range of motion (ROM) recovers much faster. However, a sprain means the ligament was stretched (1st degree), stretched and partially torn (2nd degree), or completely torn (3rd degree).

If it's 1st degree, even if you iced and recover ROM pretty quickly (because the swelling is not in the way), it still takes some time to recover the strength, because the ligament has to heal inside - which is slow. For a 2nd and 3rd degree sprain, healing will take longer. In some cases, the ligament will not recover. Surgery can be done to reattached the torn ends of a 3rd degree, but doctors do not all agree it's useful for most people (my best friend has a recent a 3rd degree in his shoulder - all 3 ligaments).

So ... work on ROM and grip strength to get it back. Some local heat (Icy Hot or whatever) may help reduce swelling. But he bottom line is that it may just take time.

ahhh.. the McDonalds of coffee.... almost everywhere now. lol 30 minutes is excessive though.. if you truly need coffee/caffeine, almost anything will do.

workouts... had to really scale back after some tough days and a 15K race. Still trying to follow my advice to not over-do it. I hate to miss a workout !

#57 AllisonNYC

You must do more WOD's in a week than anyone. Do you seriously never take a break! All you seem to do is travel and workout! I'm pretty sure that's what heaven is like

Just back from Vegas, saw the Crossfit fellas at the convention. Thanks to them for comming out; don't think crossfit is 'marketed' nearly enough. Probably a factor of passion for fitness instead of desire to create a business empire. And for my own $.02 on the diatribes above; anyone else read the book "The savage wars of peace" by Max Boot?

As far as the article today, it was interesting. I enjoyed reading the comments afterward in the WSJ forum too and they were insightful and the commenters brought up clear points.

DJ-
Thanks for the video article. We should all already know how the media twists things and how myopic their views can be, but that really nailed home that ALL that they care about is their image.

The media only likes to cover what is sexy. What is the determiner of what is important and sexy at the time?
It is one person's view, in a booth some where, making decisions on what will be seen and how it will look on camera with no interest about the facts. I beleive that if we want to get real answers about what is happening in different places around the world, we need to ask questions, do research, and read more than one source.

Someone mentioned in the last rest day that this discussion came up and I saw it again this rest day-

You don't know much about Vietnam and what went on?

There are tons of books out that explain it, there are many veterans that I have found, who are willing to share their stories with you if you are willing to listen.
What is harder is to find is someone from the Korean war to share their stories, they think no one wants to hear them.
Bingo is absolutely correct in asking his questions in comment #21.

Kate

Bah, the spam filter got my other comment.

CCTJoey and Barry Cooper-
Did you all survive the tornadoes in one piece?
That could be a little bit too much choas for the compound. :-)

Kate

43/M/6'3"/200

Had a blind date with "Kelly" for breakfast. I'm not so sure we're going to work out. We didn't get along very well.

As Rxd-30:32

Didn't coach say it's OK to be a pu$$y? I feel like one after that workout!

Hey everybody....

Im new user of crossfit and i was wondering.... how much do train besides the WOD? Have been doing the WOD for one week now and found it a bit easy....

Should I train use some basic exercises a long with the WOD or should I just push a bit harder with the WOD?

Maybe it's a typical beginner question, but there isn't alot of people who know about CF in Denmark, so i was hoping that you guys could help me!

Lasse

#65 Lasse

Have a good look around on the Crossfit site. There is plenty of info in the FAQ section. Generally I will do a 5-10 minute row at an easy pace, followed by some callisthenics, or a barbell complex, Burgener Warm Up, or a crossfit warm, or throw some medicine balls. This about another 10-15 minutes. When you are nice and warm hit the WOD nice and hard. Did you really find the "Joshie" WOD so easy. Gotta be kidding me. Dumbbell snatches and a million L-Pull Ups make me throw just thinking about it.

All in all a typical session will last about 1 hour. Sometimes longer depending upon how pain has been prescribed by the boss man.

Have fun

#6 Jes--

I love break week. My body said, "Hey, if you don't take a break, I will break." So, this week has been my break week. It's a great time to refocus on things like my food intake and research things like kettlebells. Yes, I feel my body healing, but I also feel a little sluggish...I am sick afterall. Looking forward to getting back into the routine!

I have never been overly interested in politics, but my opinion of the media has changed drastically over the past few years. In my opinion, this isn't a political issue at all. The reason that we get a skewed vision of what happens at war or anywhere else in the news is because the media has to create "stories" because that is what "people want". I don't think that this is politically driven, but more driven by the fact that reporters are looking to be the next big thing, and the more drama they can add to a story, the more likely they will be recognized for it.

It's amazing to me how we can know exactly what Brittney Spears does for every hour on a Friday and Saturday night, but we can't get a truthful story out of the media regarding things that actually affect the way we live.

On a side note, I will be taking the rest day off, since I will miss the workouts on Saturday and Sunday to ski. I'm thinking 150 30# db thrusters today, since that is the best workout I can do in the gym at my office. If anyone is in the Killington, VT area this weekend, shoot me an email, I'll bring my wallball and rings we can get a workout in after the slopes, before happy hour...

#59 AllisonNYC

Yes, DD coffee is da bomb...so to speak, but you can't get a fine tasting Dirty Chai at DD. When you're in the mood for something beyond coffee, Starbucks has the hook up yo! Sorry about the street slang...I've been hangin' around my students too much I guess.

Have also driven on and off Hwy ramps in search of Star-coffee, sorry Allison. Desperation makes even a Cf'r cry like a baby when the Billboard appears. But I feel the same way about the first Sonic sign when driving south, so I guess dysfunction crosses the coffee bounds.

Allison,
It's great to hear your feeling better from your sickness. Since you are so bummed it's a rest day I suggest you do "Murph" today.
That's a nice little "rest day" workout.
Active recovery is great for the soul
:)

To all the people out there who complain about the articles: I never understood why people can watch, read or listen to something they hate so much. If you think Fox News is so biased, don't watch it. If you believe the articles are biased, don't read them. But it seems stupid to have this argument everytime someone new comes into the message boards. If you have an opinion on the article then let's here it. Engage in intelligent conversation. If you choose not to, then you are wasting your's along with enveryone else's time by presenting the same old ass arguments.

As for the article, I do agree that the Tet Offensive was a huge military loss to the Viet Cong drastically reducing their numbers. But it is my opinion that their goal was to massively discredit the U.S. effort which it did. This does not hold the strict definition of blowback but it's close.

Yes, Islamic Extremism wants us dead. So why give them the opportunity. As long as we stay home, they are really no threat. Sep 11 was carried out by men who were let into this country with Visas. The terrorism they create has worked out perfectly by bringing Americans closer to them, while creating mass unpopularity in the states. Blowback. I love the military and hate to see them killed. The surge is working which I'm happy to see. But half the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis so I believe we need to re-evaluate our enemies.

All,

Sorry that I didn't get back to a number of e-mails I received about crossfit afghanistan t-shirts -- i've been oot and aboot. The T-shirts were created by Shawn Gniazdowski (shawn.gniazdowski@afghan.swa.army.mil or the similar red address for locals, heck he's in global) and I think they've got a bunch left. Be advised, they're Afghan-made ;)

I'll be out of the loop for another month or so, but should be back soon!

take care,

The article is neither pro nor anti-war. The author is merely comparing the reporting of perceived failure during Tet to the perceived failure of our current ops in Iraq and how it affects the opinion of the average American. This is important because the average American is ignorant of the complexities of counter-insurgency and how we measure success. Controlling this ignorance influences election choices because the war is an emotional hot button on the political table.

Regardless of our motive for entering Iraq, we are there now and have to deal with it. The left continuously drags the original motive for entering Iraq across the media as a red herring to distract the public from the fact that our current measures to stop the insurgency are working quite well. Good or bad, we are in Iraq and can't just walk. It's not that simple. Our current measures are working, the data supports that. The enemy that won't rest until every last member of the great Satan is defeated can't muster forces to fight other than using IEDs and attacking other small confidence targets in small numbers. That alone should be an indicator that we are successful. Within the phases of an insurgency, this enemy can barely function. Detonating bombs on small confidence targets is not success by any means. Anyone that knows the cycle of insurgency should be able to see that Al-Qaida isn't even close to victory in Iraq or Afghanistan. They aren't organized into effective units, they aren't uniformed and they don't have an internal functioning government that owns real estate. When that happens, we have failed.

Why can't we be happy with this? The left is afraid that a success in Iraq will counter their efforts achieve the White House. If current policy in Iraq and Afghanistan is the mud they need to throw to win an election, they are pretty weak.

As a country, we should be glad that we are making the progress that we are. A strong finish to the war would be nice (I thing all of our service members would agree), but counter-insurgency is tricky business that takes YEARS to work through. There is no anti-biotic that will cure it in ten days. The press could report success without it being an endorsement of a particular political party's success, but it's doubtful that they can overlook their real agenda.

Wow - #34! Did you really just you toss in some 'Christan Militia's' into the mix? Then all of the 9/11 conspiracy theories to top it off? Dude, lay down and put your feet on a bench. You need blood in your head.

19 / F

Took yesterday off cuz I knew I'd be lifting today.

Hang Snatches, sets of 3 - worked up to 32 kilos for 2 sets
Clean & Jerks, doubles - worked up to 40 kilos for 3 sets
assisted pull-ups & sit-ups

OH YEAH

This is a great informational article, it is historically accurate regarding the events but in itself has an agenda as well. Tet showed the power of the media and how it could literally snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. We are faced with the same things in Iraq, the media reports the bad stuff but NOT the good...The numbers of Hospitals, Schools, Police officers, students being educated now, and a stock exchange in action and everything else positive going on there. The "spin doctors" aka: media are showing the major news media are becoming nothing more then "Tabloid" journalits...

#73 Windsor has it right. I couldn't have said it better myself. To build on that, people need to re-think the "lessons of 9/11." This lessons of 9/11 are not that we needed to occupy the middle east and engage on a unpopular "War on Terror" around the world. The lessons of 9/11 are exactly the opposite; that our previous presence in the middle east and interventions around the world generate extremists hell bent on killing us.

I often wonder where neo-conservative politicians and their supporters get their ideas from. My opinion happens to be in line with the analysis of the CIA and the 9/11 commission report. Really now, if you despise the media, don't take the word of your own intelligence agency, and ignore the advice of the 9/11 commission report...where do you get your arguments from?

31/f/159/68"

ooo, i wanna read all the comments so bad, but i just don't have the time! i did livelongCF's WOD from the other day. all the kettlebell talk lately made me want to try it.

WOD: "One Arm"

30-20-10
Single Arm KB Swing
Single Arm KB Press
Single Arm OH KB Squat

FOR TIME! The reps are EACH ARM! Try and keep the same KB for all three movements and count the number of times you have to set the KB down. Keep that numbers as low as possible!
14:47

okay, i found a SERIOUS limiting factor in this workout. my overhead squats are crappy and i had to drop serious weight. i had to go down to 10# DBs for my right arm. so i did everything with the 10 pounder. i could not use my KB, but for the swings, so i nixed that pretty quick. i really wish our weight room had KBs!

note to self, do more SA OHS... they are seriously one of the best compound core exercises i have ever done. shoulder, traps, obliques, low back, abs -- holy crap!

ck

No rest for me today

US Navy Seals' "DECK OF CARDS"
As rx'd

37:38

Are we really all that surprised that the media screwed US policy by influencing the national opinion? The general public is like sheep, and they'll believe whatever they're told. I mean, we have TV commercials now saying "Our claims must be true, otherwise we couldn't say it on TV". Give me a break.

Jeff in VA John in NY
Late posting yesterday's results
JEFF 48/70"/195
No CFWU (I figured “Joshie” this morning was enough of a warm up)
115/125/135/145/155/165/175x1(couldn’t lockout the last two reps).
I am happy with 1 @ 175 as I only got 165 twice last time.

John 48/68"/160
Burgener w/ Oly bar x 2
78/100/122/126/132/126/126
Last time failed at 122 after 2nd rep in 3rd set & regressed from there. Today 4 sets at or over the weight of previous failure. Finally comfortable with getting my hips open and landing…probably not deep enough, but this is a good improvement from 10 Dec.

Excellent article. Herman is right.

#58 AllisonNYC

24/6'2/200

I saw you got your first muscleup the other week. Me and the guys out here (Fallujah) are big fans and I just wanted to let you know I got my first muscleup today!

I saw in your interview that you only date Crossfitters, but seeing as I won't be back in the states for a while, I'm out of luck

We all want to know if you have a MySpace page

I love how so many people will fight tooth and nail to avoid admitting the empirical evidence that freedom and capitalism is the tide that lifts all boats. Is it propaganda if its true? These are the same people who can't fathom the economic truth that tax cuts for the rich CREATE jobs and boost tax revenues. Somehow our media has become overwhelmingly secular progressive and liberal (as proven in a Stanford study of all places) and these champions of tolerance and diversity are the first and loudest to edit or screen out dissenting opinion. God forbid we have the whole picture to form opinions from! I like that these articles 'round out' or fill in the picture for those open minded enough to glean the value. I love the workouts and about 70% of the rest day topics. Am i crying for the other 30% to be just how i like? Lets limit our crying to the pain of the workouts!

Hey! Two amazing athletes from the Ft. Worth certification at GSX, which is an awesome facility by the way. I think Summer, on the right, had never actually done many CrossFit workouts before, but she really smoked that tough one anyway.

I have never posted about the "rest day" articles. Probably because I grew up in a house with a super-liberal mother and an ultra-conservative father (oh my goodness, all I remember of fourth grade was the Bush v Dukakis election), so I guess I just got used to listening to both sides. Let me tell you though, the three kids that shared that experience with me are three of the most objective, well-rounded, and well-informed people I know. We don't all agree politically, but we are able to share our opinions freely without feeling personally attacked when someone has a different point of view.

Most of us look at this site every day. Three out of every four days I check the site to find out what that day's pt will be. One out of every four days I check the site because I know there will be an article posted that I would probably never come across on my own. More information, whether opinion of fact or mere fact and no matter what your political orientation, is never a bad thing. How many people can say that they are part of a fitness community that has the kind of educated discussions that CrossFit provokes with every rest day? Thanks for the articles.

#21 bingo -

I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say that the reason so many people focus on Vietnam now is for a few key reasons:

1) They (or in the case of young adults like me, their parents) were somehow directly involved in the war - as protesters, as draftees, as the gal whose boyfriend volunteered to fight, as the siblings of a fallen soldier, etc.

2) The wars followed a similar starting course - as I understand it, Vietnam was initially heavily favored in America as a crusade against communism while the Iraq War was also heavily supported at its onset as a means of eradicating terrorism. Both wars focused on vast concepts with a very real, and tenacious, embodiment.

3) Media coverage, especially of human rights violations, caused many citizens to question the purpose of the war. I suppose I could cite My Lai and Mukaradeeb, but I'm not trying to start a flame war. To say that violations have only been caused by US forces would be a bold-faced lie.

Re: Allison having trouble on rest days...

Have you ever tried doing Tai Chi or (QiJong or Chi Kung)? They are both a good slow workout and the flexibility work is a great balance to all the strength work. Not to mention the focus and internal aspects of it. There are a lot of good dvd's on it if you can't find a convenient class. (tho considering how you love to travel, I can foresee the log posts from "AllisonTaiwan" or "AllisonBeijing" not far off. :)) Ahhh the enthusiasm of youth!!!

I introduced a friend to "Michael" yesterday since I chose to forgo the Push Jerks. She almost met Pukie! Saw that her treadmill 400m dash wasn't even quite a dash. I'm gonna make her fall in love with Pukie!

AllisonNYC, how are your REST DAYS going?

As far as today's article...take it or leave it, make comments or don't. Read and/or ignore. Hey, this is why they call it COMMENTS, right?
Been around this world for over 4 decades. It doesn't hurt to exercise your mind as well especially on REST days.

I too have to preface this, that these are my views and no way associated with the Govt. I have been apart of this 'War on Terror' from the very beginning. I was in the Pentagon when it was hit by a PLANE!. On Oct 15, 2001 I was sent to Afghanistan with 5th SFG. I was with SOF at the start of Iraq. I have enjoyed the luxury of short (3-6 Month) deployments, unlike the other military personnel. But I have had 3 tours in Iraq, and I am currently on my 3rd tour in Afghanistan. My views are from being both Military and Govt Civ.

Hmm, where to begin on all of this. First, I don't believe you can really hold Afghan on the same line as Iraq. Over 80% of countries, Muslim as well, believe that we had a right to strike the Taliban. So to me that is pretty much off the table.
You can say that Bin Laden and his cronies attacked us because of our Mid-East policies, which could very well be the origins of the problem, but it has morphed well beyond that now. Any religion that is hell-bent on destroying the infidels (or converting them), is extreme. Do you remember a couple of years ago when that cartoon artist drew the picture of the Prophet Mohammed? How all the Clerics and Sheikhs were calling for his death...yeah, this is a reasonable group. I dont believe in the reasons we went into Iraq, but I do believe that is was the right thing to do. There is a motto in the military, specifically Special Forces, "De Oppresso Liber", or 'To Free the Oppressed'. Now there is no one that can honestly tell me that Saddam did not oppress his people...just ask the Kurds. My point is, this brutal murderer needed to be removed from power. Now I concur with the 'Blowback' that has happened with all of the extremist coming to Iraq was misfortunate, but they are there now and they need to be dealt with. If we just up and leave that area, they will take over that country. Needless to say, this will give them another area for training ground. If this were to happen, do you honestly think that they wouldn't plan another attack on the US?
Sorry if it seemed I was all over the place, I just had a lot on my mind.

Does anyone else think that video could have lasted about 3 seconds, "Pull your shoulders back with the kettlebell."?

Nothin' but love Jeff.

"To Congress and the public, however, the war had been nothing but a debacle. And by withdrawing American troops, President Nixon gave up any U.S. political or military leverage on Vietnam's future. With U.S. military might out of the equation, the North quickly cheated on the Paris accords. When its re-equipped army launched a massive attack in 1975, Congress refused to redeem Nixon's pledges of military support for the South. Instead, President Gerald Ford bowed to what the media had convinced the American public was inevitable: the fall of Vietnam."
Compare with Henry Kissinger in an article from the LA Times titled "The Lessons of Vietnam:
"American disunity was a major element in dashing these hopes. Watergate fatally weakened the Nixon administration through its own mistakes, and the 1974 midterm congressional elections brought to power the most unforgiving of Nixon's opponents, who cut off aid so the agreement couldn't work as planned. The imperatives of domestic debate took precedence over geopolitical necessities."

What drives the imperative of domestic debate? Drama perpetuated at the expense of information visa-vis the media as Mr Herman suggests, or the polarized political atmosphere of the Nixon/McGovern, Bush/Clinton eras? Is the media reporting of Tet really the single domino that doomed our effort in Vietnam? Will the same kind of case be made for Iraq?

Clear domestic debate is impossible without clearly stated national interests and goals. In Vietnam, as in Iraq, our government did a poor job of translating geo-political necessity into national interest through public diplomacy and information. Press misreporting and propaganda fill the void left by the lack of thoughtful strategic communication.

I have a question. I'm new to CF, this is my first week. Man I am sore. Anyway, do rest days really mean i'm not supposed to do any workout at all. I felt like I was making progress. Despite the soreness, I feel great when I work out this hard, so I went on a little 2 mile run this morning. Is that alright, or am I supposed to really relax?

Thanks for the help.

Kate,

We're fine. Got woken up at midnight to multiple sirens, which got turned off. . . then back on. . .then back off. . .then back on. I watched the news, made a decision, and went back to sleep with them still going. No harm came to me.

#32: Your ruse is clever, but misguided. In WW1, Ludendorf--who as you likely know participated with Hitler in the Bierhalleputsch--broke through the lines with a proto-SS, using what amounted a walking Blitzkrieg. They focussed on speed, and used tremendous amounts of gas, flamethrowers, and Sonderkommando, who had trained for this.

After years of lines changing by yards, they changed the lines by miles, within weeks.

But they got bogged down again, particularly due to logistical issues, in my understanding. They were able to shell Paris, with a large gun which reminds one of the V1 and V2 missiles (notice a pattern here?), but unable to move any more. When the Americans got to France, and once Pershing started using them, the German Generals knew it was only a matter of time before a huge breakthrough. They trusted Wilson to broker a fair peace, and after talking a big talk, he failed completely.

In the German news, of course, the success of the Kaiserschlacht--the Ludendorf plan--was trumpeted as nearly heralding the end of a war which had literally taken the lives of a generation of German men and boys. It was what was in the news, and what the Germans--hoping that the end might at last be near--believed.

Hitler, then, in talking of this betrayal, tapped a large, open wound in the German psyche, that he did not invent. He merely exploited it.

In the case of Vietnam, the reality was quite different. If you read this article, and the one post 3 Rest Days ago, you see that we did in fact win the conflict. The level of calm and government control was even more substantial than what we possess today in Iraq. The countryside was 90% pacified. The military was well armed, motivated, and equal to the task of maintaining peace.

Tet took the lives of 100,000 NVA (I will add: I am assuming here that you are not seriously proposing that the Vietcong were anything other than peasants terrified into compliance by NVA terrorists).

The 1972 offensive roughly another 100,000. The claim was made then that the Vietname could take an endless amount of damage. Implicitly--sometimes explicitly--the claim was made that Asians somehow just don't value life like we do. That they are all willing to die like ants for their Queen, and that we Americans are just no match for their endless capacity for bloodletting.

Yet, 618,000 people died in our Civil War. At 2% of the population then, that would be equivalent to 5 million men today. Do we say that Americans must not have valued life then? Do we say that both the North and the South had an unlimited capacity for blood-letting?

No, we say it hurt, and in point of fact, Dixie was driven down. The South did not have an unlimited capacity for death.

Neither did North Vietnam. As this article and that of 3 Rest Days ago state clearly, we now know from Soviet documents that the North Vietnamese were on the verge of genuine surrender a number of times, and that they persisted principally in the hope that the Americans would abandon the South. This was the only conceivable way they could engineer the Communist Empire, based in Hanoi, that they desired.

Nixon's ability to manage the situation was greatly hampered by Watergate. We remember the laws he broke, but forget why he broke them. When Daniel Ellsburg stole classified information with which he had been entrusted, and gave it to a New York Times only to willing to help the cause of our enemies, Nixon realized that the level of subversion in our nation amounted to Communist penetration and treason. He reacted with unjustifiable paranoia, and unexcusable breaches of the law (hardly unique in this, though). However, the fundmental reality of what amounted to Communist subversion is indisputable. We know this now.

John Kerry, for example, met with representatives of the North Vietnamese, and subsequently called for policies in exact congruence with what they wanted. He acted as their willing proxy, in other words. http://www.wintersoldier.com/staticpages/index.php?page=puppets

Ultimately, then, we have the following facts:

The peace with the North was negotiated hastily, and under substantial political pressure from the Left.

The peace left in place 160,000 NVA regulars, in the South.

The treaty which was signed, was broken by the North.

The treaty which we signed with the South, was broken, by us. We failed to support them when they needed us, as we had committed to do.

The North would not have invaded the South if they had felt there was any chance we would return.

Domestic political pressures--not military necessity--were what prevented our support of the South. They were also what forced a treaty which everyone knew would be broken.

Without our leaving Vietnam, it is unlikely the Communist atrocities in Cambodia would have happened. Roughly 1 in 5 Cambodians was murdered.

Without our cutting all support to the Cambodian government--all funding, all weapons, all troops--they would have had at least a chance of standing off the Khmer Rouge.

The funds to the Cambodians were cut as a result of domestic political pressure to leave the region. This was a hasty decision, and obviously the wrong one. Hopefully we can agree on that.

Many if not most of the protesters in the street sided with our enemies in North Vietnam, and the Khmer Rouge. They believed the propaganda they were fed that these conflicts were anti-colonialist, nationalistic conflicts. This has been shown clearly to have been mistaken. Hopefully we can agree on that.

To me, the case is open and shut that we made the wrong decision to abandon our legal committments and moral responsibilities to the South Vietnamese, and the region generally. We made a mistake.

The mistake was not in beginning the conflict. The stakes were clear, the Communists clearly on the move, and inaction by the forces of liberty and democracy clearly what they counted on.

The mistake was in not covering the final 5 yards, after a 20 mile hike, and instead abandoning all the successes--bought with considerable sacrifice--needlessly, simply due to a bunch of unwashed Communist sympathizers who bullied their way into the national spotlight.

Yes, we should draw an analogy with Vietnam. We should vow that in Iraq, we will apply the lessons learned there, and persevere to the end, not almost to the end.

Well well well,

As much as I like(you could read love) crossfit, I must say that i'm often disturbed by the articles posted on rest days. It comes to point where I don't even bother reading them anymore.

Don't get me wrong, I like politics, I like debates and to take a time to think, but i'm not sure that's exactly it.

The way i see it, this is a constant hammering of the same thing(underlaying point of view) over and over. If you take a time to go back and read every debates here. It almost comes back to the same thing over and over.

Normaly in a debate, you have two sides defending their points. So why couldnt we have both right and left point of view articles i haven't read one article yet comming from a left point of view source. Or maybe just and article that is written outside of the US to enlarge our views.

In this matter why wouldnt we see and article written by the vietnamese on the vietnam war, I guess they might have something to say about it.

Let's just look at crossfit, we take different aspects of different training methods to make an awsome workout. Why can't we do the samething with our minds. Take some and leave some, from both the leftists and rightists.

Here's a suggestion, we could have articles or debates on the movie of the year? the best cooking book? On who is the best golfer. Or maybe, are foot supplements such as proteins good or bad? Or i dont know who makes the best soldiers SEALS vs JTF2 vs SAS etc.

Having the same debate over and over, with the same arguments, without varying the point of view, is like training and doing only biceps curls. It leads to nothing but a big muscle (big head) and no core strengh.. No food for the mind.

Lets just open up guys...

The article is very interesting – I am from the generation after the Vietnam conflict and I always felt like I knew things about that War – my Uncle was killed there – and I had a very right leaning high-school history teacher who served there. That being said I took a winter session history class a few years back on the history of the Vietnam conflict and I realized I really did not know anything. Even my idea of the story behind the pictures that came from that war, the really famous pictures (the man being shot in the head and the burning monks) I was completely wrong about what these pictures were. That being said many people do not know anything about the Conflict – other then the movies and that stupid song (19 – 19). There are better movies out now about Vietnam (We Were Soldiers Once, and Young), but even these do not tell the history. The article touches on this idea – but I think the most important part of the article is that it is telling people not to believe everything they read or were taught or told.
As for people comparing what happened in Vietnam as to what is happening in Iraq – I believe it is because Vietnam is a conflict that we think we remember – that we think we understood.
My .02, all that being said I will be heading to Kandahar shortly and am looking forward to meeting some fellow crossfitters there!

#33

'that the enemy, no many how many body blows are dealt to it -- can still respond effectively and keep fighting, even if their chances of a traditional "victory" are practically non-existent.'

To re-phrase: they [the NV/VC] didn't quit. It's not a characteristic unique to insurgencies, it's a necessary attitude on either side of a conflict in order to prevail. Since you seem to recognize this truth (at least from the perspective of the insurgent), why not support that approach for the US? Why adopt the attitude of those that failed? I suspect the answer is that you did not support the rational behind the war in the first place. That's fine. Its an opinion, and well argued by many, but no longer helpful now that we're in the middle of it.

By saying that the NV 'won' by not giving up and then recommending that the US give up seems illogical to me. Perhaps the reason NV 'won' is not because of its unique no surrender attitude, but because the US, as a people, lost its. Your quote supports the idea that strong political support for the conflict improves the chances and speeds the timetable for success and that insidious opposition internally lessens the chances of success and may unnecessarily prolong the conflict.

Still playing catch-up.
10k 55:46 Need improvement.
justin 33/m/212

#33

'that the enemy, no many how many body blows are dealt to it -- can still respond effectively and keep fighting, even if their chances of a traditional "victory" are practically non-existent.'

To re-phrase: they [the NV/VC] didn't quit. It's not a characteristic unique to insurgencies, it's a necessary attitude on either side of a conflict in order to prevail. Since you seem to recognize this truth (at least from the perspective of the insurgent), why not support that approach for the US? Why adopt the attitude of those that failed? I suspect the answer is that you did not support the rational behind the war in the first place. That's fine. Its an opinion, and well argued by many, but no longer helpful now that we're in the middle of it.

By saying that the NV 'won' by not giving up and then recommending that the US give up seems illogical to me. Perhaps the reason NV 'won' is not because of its unique no surrender attitude, but because the US, as a people, lost its. Your quote supports the idea that strong political support for the conflict improves the chances and speeds the timetable for success and that insidious opposition internally lessens the chances of success and may unnecessarily prolong the conflict.

Very insightful article that has many parallel's to the Iraq/Afghanistan conflict. The common thread - our bleeding heart media blurring the images of reality into fiction in order to further their political agenda. The traditional soldier v. soldier combat methodology has been changed by the third world forces so that the battle is fought on two major fronts - one, gorilla warfare and two, playing into the hands of the media. As evidenced through Vietnam and the current Middle-East conflict to date, the method in which the media portrays the conflict to the world population can, potentially, have more of a damaging impact on the outcome of the conflict than any bullet fired or stone thrown by the opposition.

We should consider the Vietnam conflict a painful lesson learned & be careful not to make the exact same mistakes twice. If I am not mistaken, the current state of affairs in Iraq is that the country is in a civil war between the Sunni & Shia populations so most of the car/suicide bombings are aimed at Iraqi civilians rather than US Armed Forces. If the US forces pull out of Iraq now, the already delicate structure that has been established will discintigrate immediately & the country will fall into a state of anarchy or worse. Then - don't be surprised when our media grabs hold of that anarchy with both of its greedy hands & spins it as the true and final failure of our country's "meddling" - when in reality, the media was at the heart of the problem. But hey - I guess that's OK, because the media ratings will be high so CNN, CBS, ABC, etc will be makin that dolla dolla bill.

Read the article - Dont read the article. Agree or disagree - what is awesome is that we live in a society where we can all debate such and not kill the group next to us beacuse of their thoughts or beliefs.

Dont let your emotions rule your judgement while having spirited debates with those you respect.

Agree with you Tx Annie on all points!!!!!!!

t

Read "Eating Soup With a Knife". It compares and contrasts the British counterinsurgency in Malayasia and the U.S. effort in Vietnam. Bottom line--the American public and military expect wars will be fought as force on force, total war with political processes supporting the military, perhap being subordinate to it. The British figured out that unless you find a political solution to the problem, the well of insurgents will never run dry. Too bad the U.S. Army took 30 years to rewrite it's counterinsurgency doctrine, we could've been more successful sooner. I just RTB'd--Patraeus's plan is working...

Today's article fails to mention several key facts. While it is true that the failure of the Tet offensive was a grievous military setback to the NVA, North Vietnam was a murderous Stalinist dictatorship that didn't bother telling the world how badly they were mauled by the US in 1968. Prior to Tet, General Westmoreland had given highly optimistic reports on the progress of the war and the audacious attacks of Tet, including an assault on the US embassy, capture of the Cholon district and the siege of Hue created a far different war than the US public was used to seeing. The Tet offensive coincided with the beginning of the siege of Khe Sanh which lasted into May, 1968 and badly rattled the US, raising the spectre of a US Dien Bien Phu. The Air Force pulverized the NVA, but we never knew it, they just packed up and slipped across the border to Laos. The combined effect of these images on a public never politically prepared for a major conflict enabled both the political left and the Republican opposition to undermine support for continued aggressive military action in Vietnam. Don't forget that Nixon, like Eisenhower in 1952, ran on end the war platforms. Militarily, Vietnam presented unique challenges to our military: the triple canopy jungle somewhat neutralized our air power and enabled the enemy to move freely. Air power won the war in the west in 1944-45 and any time our air arm was grounded, the Wehrmacht was able to stand and fight. Look at what happened in the Battle of the Hurtgen Forest in September 1944, a densely wooded area not unlike Vietnam's jungles. For those interested in reading some great recent scholorship on the Vietnam War, get ahold of Mark Moyer's "Triumph Forsaken: Vietnam, 1955-1964" which takes the position that the Diem government could have withstood the Viet Cong insurgency, but was torpedoed by the slanted reporting of David Halberstam and Neil Sheehan as well as the machinations of Henry Cabot Lodge. Victor Davis Hanson's "Culture and Carnage" contains a perceptive essay on the Tet offensive. Good stuff.

#34,

What lie about a lack of plane at the Pentagon are you to trying to substantiate? I personally spent nine straight days removing bodies, body parts and wreckage from the Pentagon (starting SEP 12 @ 0600). I can tell you for a fact that there WAS an American Airlines passenger plane there. I SAW the landing gear, remnants of the seats, seat belts, fusilage, the small bones etc of the school children on that flight. Don't spread the lie that it didn't happen.

The only conspiracy is the one started to get the world to believe there is a conspiracy.

Long one in the hopper. Should come out about #102.

Comment #67

Welcome, but unless you are Kelly Moore the WOD's should be difficult. You are probably not pushing yourself hard enough. Get a long warm-up in and go all out. When it says "for time" then you want to do the WOD as fast as you can, without rest if possible (its not possible). After "Joshie" I nearly collapsed as I dropped from the pull-up bar swimming in my own persperation.....can't wait until tomorrow!

Interesting reading today, considering I just finished "The Best and the Brightest." I have no doubt that our military was in the process of destroying the VC and NVA...I also have no doubt that our political and military leaders at the time of the Vietnam War were, at best, buffoons.

Oh man, rest day articles are fun. Its like watching a bar fight, so many wild and graceless punches thrown but every now and again you will see a bottle getting broken over someone's head. I hope everyone has fun pushing points and getting a little worked up because its just nice to see people care about anything. Be careful not to cut yourself though because there is glass all over in here...

Since nobody else bit, and I'm procrastinating, I'll answer #28:

"But I have a real question: WHAT SPORT DO YOU PLAY? ... Do people on this board participate in sports or are most people just gym rats"

My sports are Mountain Bike (XC racing)and rowing, did both in college, (well, MTB racing wasn't real yet back then)Now coming back from 3 (+/-) years off.

Thanks for the rest day. I actually was forced to rest yesterday because I ran out of time. Not enough hours in the day. Will make up for yesterday today.

As for the politics, I think #35 is absolutely correct. Politics and Fitness can and should be mutually exclusive. As a passionate political scientist and self-professed know-it-all I have had my fare share of politcally heated arguments. This venue, however, is not the place to share or air those feelings. Too many pumped up badasses who could literally kill eachother thanks to the training and rigor of crossfit!

I'm old enough to remember the Vietnam war and the effects on public opinion here. I'm glad to read about the effectiveness of our fighting forces; they deserved so much more credit than they got.

I believed then, and I still believe, that the war as we conducted it was a mistake. I was a big anti-Communist, but the fact that it was a war of attrition meant that we were meant to take losses to our troops until the enemy losses became too large for them to continue. The cost of this policy was I felt doomed to exceed the value to our security interests.

Another hateful aspect of the war was the way opposition to the war became a safe haven for the few with anti-American leanings. The sight of people sporting North Vietnamese flags is something I will never forget, although it was a tiny minority. I think the guy mongering a conspiracy theory today is of the same ilk.

I agree that the comments to articles on rest day are fun to read, but often just a little lacking in scholarship or finesse (no offense; we're not here to be scholars). If anyone is interested in reading some more probing, and perhaps more informed responses to that article, I suggest clicking on the "forum" link at the bottom of the article.

30 Muscle-ups: 4:57
(3 MU's every 30 sec.)

L-sits: 3 min. total

I don't see how going into Afghanistan was justified. Especially since after 9/11 there wasn't any investigation into who was responsible. Just a lot of speculation.

We could have captured or killed Osama, if that was truly the goal, and avoided an invasion by killing him during the sting operation from which the infamous "confession video" was obtained.
http://muckrakerreport.com/id475.html

Certain parties had a vested interest in securing the energy resources in the Caspian Sea basin.
http://www.newhumanist.com/oil.html
The Taliban had visited TX in 1997 to visit with Unocal to discuss building an oil pipeline through Afghanistan that would go from the Caspain Sea,through Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, and Pakistan where it would end at the Arabian Sea as seen below:
http://www.ringnebula.com/Oil/pipeline.jpg
Article about the Taliban visitng US:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/west_asia/37021.stm

Interesting to note, Zalmay Khalilzad, a former Unocal advisor and high ranking member of the Bush II adminstration (he has been in government since George Herbert Walker Bush), attended the meeting with the Taliban in 1997. George Bush would appoint him as special envoy to Afghanistan.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1736789.stm

Further, the Taliban had virtually eliminated the poppy crop from Afghanistan. Drug trafficing and money-laundering are well known sources of financing for international banks, corporations and intelligence services, especially the CIA.
Now, a full 7+ years after the invasion, "Afghanistan produced an
extraordinary 8,200 tons of opium (34% more than in 2006), becoming practically the
exclusive supplier of the world’s deadliest drug (93% of the global opiates market)."
http://www.unodc.org/pdf/research/AFG07_ExSum_web.pdf

For an example of a corporation using the blackmarket and known terrorist organizations to help them make a profit see European Union vs RJ Reynolds:
http://www.nsra-adnf.ca/cms/index.cfm?group_id=1191

Eurasia has been a great interest to certain Americans. For exmaple, Zbigniew Brzezinski, former National Security Advisor to the Carter adminstration (now Barack Obama's foreign policy advisor) wrote extensively about the importance of controlling Eurasia in his book, "The Grand Chessboard" Here are some quotes from his book:
For quotes from his book about Eurasia, see here:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=111348

It's not the terrorist's in far away lands we should worry about. We should be more worried about State Department officials selling nuclear secrets on the blackmarket and having our Attorney General putting a gag order on a true patriot to cover up the crimes:
http://www.bradblog.com/?cat=58

The pieces are all out there, you just have to connect the dots. I recommend the following lecture from a former LAPD detective to put some of these pieces together:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8797525979024486145

Also, the following website is great for researching these and other matters:
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/

#67 Lassee: Whaaat? You thought Joshie was easy? Oh my Goodness. I suggest doing a full CrossFit warmup. Push yourself as hard as you can each workout. Don't leave anything in the gym! Welcome to he wonderful world of Crossfit!

#95 thedannyboy: I'm probably the last person who should be answering this question. Resting is my weakness right after ring dips but I'm getting beter at both. Try to get in the habbit of resting on rest days. Learn from my mistakes of training hard everyday and then needing to take a week off. I understand that you feel great but we all need rest. That doesn't mean you have to stay in bed and sleep all day. Active rest can mean playing a sport, going for a bike ride or whatever. Just save some gas in the tank for the next 3 days :)
Maybe you can be my rest buddy. I'm trying hard to take my own advice. Hope that helps.

ALPHASIG319: YAY! congratulations! That's great. I think I'm just as excited when other CrossFitters accomplish things as I am for myself. It's so much fun to see everyone's progress.

So, I'm 23 of course I have a myspace page. It's hooked up CrossFit Style. "Friend" me.
http://www.myspace.com/allison_magara

Does anyone else get really tight in their upper traps and lateral neck muscles after doing push jerks? last time we did them i got so tight I ended up with a huge migrane and I can feel it coming on again from yesterday - any form tips?

Good reading:
"The Art of War"
-take it or leave it.
Today's heated commentaries may conveniently be a fiery prelude to a Tabatha Fight Gone Bad tomorrow. Uh-Oh!

WOS: 500 squats 16:33

AlphaSig319 Straight out the Gates
Congrats on the MU

#112 Allison,
thanks for the advice. I only ran about 2 miles this morning, so i guess that might count as "active rest." next rest day should be on Monday, right? that day active rest will likely be snowboarding since i have it off work. sweet. Again, thanks for the advice.

Travel day tomorrow, so I'll miss the wod.
I need the MU practise, 30 for time-7:19. Unlike the last go, I had no failures and was able to get in a good rhythm. 5 in a row to start then singles.
42 yom, 6'1", 173#.

Maybe a little off-topic, but… I am a U.S. Marine, and have spent more than a few days on the ground in Iraq over the last few years. I find it interesting but a little tiresome when I hear all the debates about why we went into Iraq in the first place. I know what we were all told—that we were removing an oppressive dictator, weapons of mass destruction, etc. There were plenty of strategically sound reasons for it that never seem to get mentioned.

#1 Take a look at the map of the Middle East. Iraq is smack in the middle. How can that not be a strategically advantageous position for the US to have a significant military presence? Not only do I think we shouldn’t have a timetable to leave, I think we should stay permanently, just as we did in Germany and Japan.

#2 Saddam Hussien was an unstable megalomaniac. He couldn’t be trusted to sit astride the world’s main energy reserves. Whether he had WMD’s or not, he had nothing but evil intentions towards the US. I was in the first Gulf War as well—remember that? He was not abiding by the cease fire from that conflict, either. You can’t let a nutcase like that stay around indefinitely.

#3 We need oil. Plain and simple. This is why the Iraqi people should welcome the defeat of the insurgency and the presence of US troops. We want to buy Iraqi oil and make them rich beyond their wildest dreams. Why exactly would the people be against that? When I present this argument to Iraqis that I’ve spoken with at meetings, they always smile and agree completely.

#4 The War on Terrorism needed a battleground. Iraq provides that. Every card-carrying nutcase in the Muslim world has been making his way as fast as possible to be killed in Iraq by the American military. We are frighteningly good at killing people. A large portion of the insurgency is made up of these foreigners—this isn’t really a home-grown insurgency at all. And the Iraqi people are getting tired of it. In Al Anbar especially, it is apparent that the locals no longer wish to support Islamic extremists. They are beginning to understand that Americans treat them much more fairly and with more dignity than Al Qaeda ever will.

Why our senior political leaders did not present these as the real reasons, I have never understood. No matter why we went in the first place, though, we are there now. If we withdraw, Iraq is sure to lapse into chaos, and will likely emerge from the other side of this chaos as an Islamic theocracy, like it’s neighbor Iran. American blood has been spilled, and American sweat has dripped into the Iraqi dirt. Some of that blood and sweat has come from me personally and from people I know very well. Have your debates, think what you will. We absolutely cannot turn our backs on this conflict. I say this not only academically, but as someone who actually has to go over there. We can win this fight. We are winning this fight.

General question for everyone (including Coach!): What are people`s thoughts on focusing on one aspect of fitness (ie- strength) for a given period of time (ie- a month) then focusing on another (ie-power). Through these cycles, it would seem to me, I could develop a particular weakness in a more efficient manner. I'm not suggesting forgetting entirely about the other aspects of fitness in a given "strength cycle", but rather the balance of workout types would be tipped towards strength exercises (ie- 1RM efforts, deadlifts, weighted pulls, presses, etc.). I ask because on the GymJones site they specify workout types (ie- power, strength, circuit, Interval Weight Training, etc.) and I like the idea of choosing workout types to focus on weaknesses. Thanks for your thoughts...

push jerks for me today
55/65/75/85/85/80/80 had to drop the weight because my form was slipping.....otherwise felt great. good to practice these overhead moves.

then did one round of "Joshie"....had to get home before my little one gets out of school...don't know how anybody could claim this was easy....

The guerrilla's greatest weapon is the modern media.

This is even more true today due to the internet.

I found the article interesting and informative, and it even reshaped my ideas of how the conflict really 'went down' (considering I was born after the fact and my perceptions have been strongly driven by what images the media had left behind). Did anyone else notice the casulty statistics? "From almost 15,000 in 1968 to 9,414 in 1969 and 4,221 in 1970." icasualties dot com lists the total US casualties to date at 3,950 - FOR THE ENTIRE WAR SO FAR. In Vietnam They had reductions in casualties greater than our entire 6 year war and nobody reported it (or at least nobody made a big deal about it at the time).

I guess the strongest point I took from the article was we can win the war on the ground and loose the war at home if we (the 'non-combatants') don't stay informed regardless of the media portrays.

#21, Bingo: Korea was not Vietnam; Vietnam isn't Iraq. Korea was a classic conventional conflict of movement after Inchon that devolved into static trench-like warfare after the Chinese intervention in late November, 1950. The stalemate on the battlefield and endless peace talks made Truman very unpopular, and Eisenhower promised that he would end the war which he did by essentially agreeing to a POW exchange. The conflict was fought on a narrow penisula and the enemy had neither sanctuaries to retreat to nor thick jungle canopies to conceal them. What the Chinese had was limitless manpower and a willingness to withstand huge casulties. The Chinese incursion haunted LBJ and prevented him from considering taking the war north to Hanoi, or at the very least rooting out Cambodian sanctuaries and cutting the Ho Chi Minh trail in Laos. The Soviet war in Afganistan is more akin to Vietnam. The Mujadeen enjoyed Pakistan sanctuaries and a major power backer. Our occupation of Iraq has no similarity with either Vietnam or Korea; the insurgents have neither a big power backer nor safe havens although I suppose crowded urban dwellings are as effective as jungle cover in neutralizing air superiority. Our problem is to craft a responsible end game strategy that will enable us to draw down our manpower there and redirect our efforts to the Afgan/Pakistan border where the really bad guys are holed up.

Obviously this is a very touchy subject and there are some heated discussions going on here today.
So I will try not to make any blanket statements and just state my opinion/experience.

First of all I would like to say that I am in the military. It gave me a sick feeling to watch the news and see my brothers and sisters being attacked on a daily basis. It was not any consolation to know that there was so much good being done that was not being reported. In fact, the good that is being done is a huge part of the troops' resolve to continue fighting.

When I go home on leave I am dumbfounded when people give me their expert opinion on the war. Of course they derived this opinion solely from what they had seen on TV and read in the papers. People will actually come up and tell me how military members feel about being in Iraq and Afghanistan. Sometimes they will go into great detail about the emotions that the Iraqi and Afghani people have. And the truth is, some of these people have never even met someone who has ever left the United States.

I have taken it upon myself to get news from the frontline every week. I find the good and the bad news and I post it in my workplace every week. I have found many great and hope-inspiring things for months. And it seems the better the news is, the less of it I see on TV. Lately I have seen more and more good news, and what do I see on the TV? Marathons of democratic debates, constant pointless analyses of presidential candidates, a veritable documentary on psychotic and drug induced pop stars and actors.

In the end, it is all about ratings right? And what harm can it do if we decide to dedicate hours of air time to an attack that killed dozens and dedicate absolutely nothing to finding any positive news from the front? It can sway the public opinion. My hat is off to those who will do the research and maintain a critical mind. However, from what I have seen, the vast majority of the public will sway very little from the opinions that are spoon fed to them.

Respectfully,

I've been reading today's posts and there's good arguement all the way around. My opinion is, I guess, based on the selfish side. I don't see boat loads of islamofascist armies coming across the Atlantic to invade Ohio, so I don't see the reasoning for Iraq or Afghanistan. 9/11 was our own fault simply because of our arrogance; it should have been seen with all the warning signs, but our government failed the people and allowed a group of amateurs to fulfill a rather nasty plan. Our government owes us an apology, not an ego-boosting invasion of sovereign nations to cover the fact of their error.

And about the Middle East? Let them eat sand, and if we need oil, then we simply take it, secure the resource and forget about the conflict of the people. It's not our conflict, and if the entire venture is based on a resource, take it.

couldn't take today off. did half a deck of cards for push ups. haven't done this since college so it was pretty fun. i didnt have a partner so i only drew out 26 cards.

190 pushups, 16 mins approx.

Rest day tomorrow. Did a shoulder-friendly WOD

5 rounds for time:
Run 400M
35 Back ext (GHD)

20:35

Very close to sub-20 goal.

29/M/175

Day behind:
135x3
155x3
175x3
185x3
195x2
195x2
190x3

Is there a WOD archive anywhere on the site? I go away for days at a time and have little internet access. I'm new to CrossFit so I don't already have a list of different WODs to use when I go away. Thanks.

M/22/6'1"/185

I decided to give myself a little whoopin.

Did Painstorm 25.
500 Thrusters @ 45#
36:49.
I should have done Linda or Murph because that was brutal. I almost fell down some stairs because my legs were so tired.
I'll be doing another painstorm real soon. As soon as I get the sensation back to my face.

Great video Paul. Thank for the shout out. Totally not expecting that one.

Beth #113-

I am dealing with the same thing, i thought my neck/traps were just tight and in pain because of my irritating co-workers. I am in a lot of pain/discomfort today, but now that you mention it, it's gotta be from the push-jerks!

re: starbucks. being a seattleite i am supposed to love my coffee and be anti-starbucks. i do however love my coffee and i love my starbucks (i actually live above one). i've tried supporting the local coffee shops but it just isn't the same.

Eric

I have done a couple Painstorms. They are tough. Try this one:

21-15-9

95# thruster
135# power clean
225# deadlift
55# kb swing
ring dips
handstand pushups
pullups
400M run

James #124,

Ron Paul for President?

#127 ara: Yes, scroll way down on the main page. Way down. You will see "Workout Archives (Monthly). Select the month you want. They are a great resource and fun to look through.

#130 nadia: C'mon, now, you obviously haven't tried Cafe Ladro in West Seattle or Cafe D'Arte. Those are the BEST. Starbuck's isn't bad but it isn't the same since 1988 when I moved there; there were only two of them and they were THE place to get coffee (I moved back to Tennessee in '02). The trouble with SBucks is they don't really train the baristas to do it right.

When you think about Vietnam in the context of the cold war, who won? Free enterprise and democracy won. We may have lost a few battles in Viet Nam, but I'm sorry, we won that war.

James #124: I totally disagree that 9/11 was our fault. That is a victim mentality. It was the terrorist's fault period.

Steve Cole #133

been to cafe ladro (the one on queen anne) and not impressed. i have yet to hit cafe d'arte but it's pretty damn close to where i live so i will check it out-- thanks for the tip. the place where i do not understand the hype is zeitgeist in pioneer square.
did you used to get your coffee at the original starbucks in the market? i took ken c there when he visited seattle, took 20+min for an americano...but it was totally worth the wait!

Cafe Ladro and Cafe D'Arte rock. For Seattle folks, if you are downtown, there is a Ladro on Union between 1st and 2nd Ave. Way better than Starsucks.

Someone up the board talked about growing up with parents on opposite ends of the political spectrum. I had a similar experience with bleeding heart liberal grandparents and ultra conservative parents (neither term meant to be disparaging--they self described in these terms). Great for giving a kid perspective. Partly why I suppose I enjoy the rest day comments.

Someone else reference Dukakis. I was young, but I could not help remember the video of him riding in a tank. Was there anything funnier? Maybe we could get some current unnamed candidates to do the same? Probably too much to hope for!

Bret #131, that looks like a beast, I'm gonna have to try that next rest day or something. Might take me a whole day to finish, but I'm gonna do it

hey summer! you're a superstar! nice form.:) glad to see gsx so well represented.

Eric

I have seen your times. I bet you'd get it between 40-50 minutes, believe it or not (maybe faster). My time was 57:11. Took 2 days rest afterward, however.

So I'm a little late on the discussion and I haven't read all of the posts but I just wanted to express my extreme gratitude for this amazing website. I don't care if you don't agree with all of the articles posted on crossfit.com. Shut your pie-hole and do the frickin' workout! We are really lucky to have something like this at our disposal. This is the best coaching that I have ever had, and it's all free! Maybe someday I'll have the honor of meeting those who are responsible for this awesome website and when I do I'll kiss their frickin' feet because they have changed my life forever. If you're upset about what is posted on the website, why don't you spend the time you spend typing away on your computer in a more productive manner. Get to the gym and take it out on a few rounds with "Linda"!

I just saw an article describing a new study stating that in "Nature vs. Nurture" nature is more to blame for obesity than nurturing. Maybe someone with more education can enlighten me. How are genetics supposedly changing so rapidly over the last few years to spawn so much obesity?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23052125/wid/11915773?GT1=10914

Anyone ever bought bumper plates from Rogue Fitness?

They've got some great pricing, but I'd like to get an opinion on quality...

Thanks!

#124 James,

"9/11 was our own fault simply because of our arrogance"

Are crime victims “asking for it” due to their arrogance of simply existing or walking in a bad neighborhood? New flash: there is there is no international police force and the world is a bad neighborhood. There is no one you can call when someone does you wrong. The closest thing to a police force is us.

So why are crimes, like 9/11 and others, committed by non-Westerners are blamed on Westerners?

The soft bigotry you, and the (hate to say it) Left, are proclaiming is not just of low expectations but in fact of no expectations for non-westernerns. To say “9/11 was our own fault” suggests that only we, as Westerners, have moral agency. To deny a person the capacity to initiate evil is to deny them the capacity to initiate good, or anything in between.

Further to believe a person doesn't have a moral agency is to remove their humanity, i.e. make them less than human. They are thinking people, not animals that only behave out of unthinking instinct, and as such are accountable as we all are.

Made up yesterdays WOD today.

Ended at 175 but only got 2 plus;

run 2 miles
bike 3 miles
run 1 mile
bike 3 miles

Normally I refuse to post, or even read the articles on off days. I keep my own records as to my scores/times (much easier) and therefore I rarely involve myself in the discussion. Today, maybe I'm just feeling a bit ambitious...

The Wall Street Journal article is blatantly ignoring a crucial component to the Tet Offensive. The U.S. government had been reporting that the VC were on the run and were a broken army. For weeks prior to the attacks, the US military and LBJ had been announcing their control of South Vietnam. Imagine our surprise after the VC were able to launch an attack with hundreds of thousands of troops... a well coordinated, albeit doomed, attack. Indeed there was some misreporting occuring with Tet. Indeed there was a gross exaggeration and a white-wash of propaganda. The US government's own exaggeration is what made Tet so devastating in spirit, if not in casualties. Pulling out of that ill-begotten war (or "police action" as it is considered in history texts) was hardly a poor decision. A war that cost us many lives, much credibility, and a fair amount of pride. Sound familiar?

...last I checked the VC didn't "follow us home".

Moving near Amarillo, TX (fritch,TX) soon, any crossfitters nearby?

Had to make up for yesterday. So here are my stats..
3 rep max on the push jerk 155 lbs. I get kinda paranoid on my form so I had to use a weight belt, I know, I know... but it was that little edge I needed to go up in wieght.
Can't wait to see what is rx'd for tomorow!
Have I said how much I love Crossfit?
If not, here it is...
I love crossfit like an Olympic Athelete loves Gold!

I have a question for the veterns out there...I have been doing CF for three weeks now with my hubbie, and we re loving it, but I am concerned about bulking up, I don't want to. Should I up the reps and down the weight, or not worry about it and continue as RD'd?

3 rounds in 17:46

6 dead hang pull ups
10 dead lifts 135 pounds
20 push ups
10 box jumps 20"
10 dumbbell swings 35 lbs
20 situps
10 thrusters 65 lbs
6 dead hang pull ups

BTW Keep posting what you want crossfit gang. It's your site. If I don't want to read something I won't. Hooah!

jake #146 I live in Lubbock TX about 100 miles south, not real close , but maybe we can develop a panahndle network

Allison,
Yeah for Dunkin Donuts coffee.It's the BEST. Nay for Starbucks, sorry Nadia!

did the bear complex today ,it was great!

7 unbroken sets of :
power clean
front squat
push press
back squat
push press

1st 3 rounds -55#
4th round-60#
5th round-65#
14:40

One of the most universal aspects of human nature is that people place their viewpoint as de facto correct and centered in the middle of the spectrum of political thought. I'm sure even Hillary thinks that there are some crazy liberals that go too far and the same for Bush and some conservatives. Thus, the request for more a more balanced sampling of news articles is a hard one to grant as the person posting the articles, by human nature, thinks that the opinions that they express are correct. And why would he or she want to post blatantly wrong articles just for the sake of someone else (who happens to hold a wrong--and perhaps dangerous--opinion) to be represented?

I love Crossfit and I actually enjoy reading the articles, even if I don't agree with every one. I hope that they continue being posted. That said, I have to reply to comments already posted. One, Iraq should neither be compared to Korea nor Vietnam. Korea was a war declared by congress, fought against a standing army, with set goals and a definitive end (though, of course we are technically still at war with North Korea). Vietnam is such a complicated story that a thorough understanding will show that while we perhaps could have won had we stayed in longer, used more troops, nuked the entire country until it was a wasteland, or something of that sort, the real question is should we have been there in the first place and was it moral and consistent with American principles to be there? I believe that it was not, and though my reasons are fairly direct, I'm not going to post them on this already long post. What I fear is that why many people are afraid to see our mistakes in Vietnam and the first part of the second Iraq conflict is that we have destroyed so many of our country's soldiers and families, and spent so much of our treasure, that it would hurt too much to admit to ourselves that our good intentions were misplaced. I am pro-military with many family members in the Marines. I am a physician, I vote, read both history and current politics from a variety of sources, and hope that by doing so I have something of an informed opinion and will not be labelled by someone who disagrees with me as a 'sheep'.

Starting from #7 and moving on down the line,

For me the bottom line is that just because you’re a democrat, or a liberal or leftist, has absolutely no connection with hating out military.

I hate the idea of war, I would rather live in a utopian world with peace and love, where we all respected differences in others religion, culture, beliefs, etc. Let’s get in touch with the inner core of love that we all have inside!

I hate the war in Iraq, I love our troops, I think our president is horrible, I believe in global warming, I wish we used our resources in New Orleans, not Iraq, and I if I vote for you, your probably loosing.

As for Iraq, taking out the stabilizing force in the Middle East was, well, retarded. No matter how much I hate the war, and the billions being spent, our half wit leaders have screwed us. We have to stay until there is stability...looks like the demise of the nation, buy stock in Rosetta stone, because were all going to be speaking Chinese.

Have a good workout!
CD

haha Allison i was just kidding!

dockray...

You are so confused. I think you know that. Please check out CCTJoey's interview. The last couple of minutes is about the best extemporaneous explication of the liberal view I've ever heard.

By the way "loved ones", those who one loves, is necessarily a short list else the word loses its meaning. Non-selective love is dull stupidity.

It is utter nonsense to describe Saddam Hussein and the Ba'ath party as a "stabilizing influence". He and they well deserved what they got, Iraq is a much better stage for fighting radical islamic fanaticism and terrorism than anywhere on our shores. I think our troops are doing an excellent job of drawing out the vermin and killing them.

The liberals running New Orleans were responsible for the poor preparation for that disaster.

Had a good one tonight. There were six of us.
We had six stations:
1. Quarter Mile Run
2. Pull Ups
3. Renegade Man Makers
4. Dead Lifts
5. Ring Push Ups w/ feet in chair
6. Curls balanced on a BOSU

The guy running set the pace for the workout, the other five stations worked until he got back and then the next guy went, etc.
We started a little late b/c I had to explain everything, we did 2 rounds in 38 minutes with a 2 minute break in between, then we had to call it quits to get back to our families. Tough workout, lots of fun with a big group.

No one likes the idea of war. It is an unfortunate byproduct of competing interests. Things are called a utopia for a reason...or else utopia would be called reality. You need to come to terms with the fact that mutually exclusive religious and cultural beliefs will never respect each other. It is a well known fact that humans have love for their own in-group. In modern times that in-group includes one's religion, political affiliation, and nation.

A good portion of the world has modernized and realized that war isn't beneficial, but there are those that are still living in the 7th century. I'm not sure what your opinion on innocent people dying is, but mine is that it's unacceptable. Terrorist attacks on our soil will not and should not be tolerated. Genocide on other's soil should not be tolerated either.

We have the right to defend ourselves, and in some cases we have the means and will to defend those that can't defend themselves. People joke about us being a world police force, but if not us, who is going to do it? How long should we sit idly by while millions are starved, gassed, mutilated, or shot? Anyone who can sit and read a paper or watch images of atrocities on television and not want it stopped are simply detached from human emotion. How long do we let a Stalin, Hitler, or Pol Pot continue on while saying, "It's none of our business"? How many people would pass a murder taking place on the roadside without giving it a second thought? The moral principle is the same for children being raped and killed on the other side of the world.

There are those of us out there that believe that the world can be a better place. There are those of us that joined a group that will be there when you cry out for help, and will be there when innocent people from other nations cry out for help. Then there are those of you that exercise your right to assemble and protest the military huddled under a blanket of freedom woven from the fabric of Americans that died for it.

Mikee,

Thanks for reciting George bush propaganda; I have heard it all before.

Iraq was the counterbalance to Iran in that region; it’s a fact, not an opinion.

I can and will use the word love however I want, Love has many meanings, are you trying to say you have never said I love this meal, I love this TV show, or I loved that movie? Come on.

And Go visit New Orleans NOW; I am referring to the clean up genius.

Get a clue

CD

#154
Amen to all that. I live in Baton Rouge and work in New Orleans, totally a man made disaster, and not the feds, the locals and our wonderful state government of the past. NOLA is a perfect example of why liberals can not be trusted to run the government. Running an organization or government based on "feelings" and goodwill alone simply will not do. We've seen what it leads to.
A big AMEN about fighting terrorism OVER THERE and not OVER HERE. We all know war sucks, but sometimes you have to have a big guy on the block that is good and has the best interest at heart to keep the little bullies in line. God bless the troops and God bless the USA.
Unfortunately there is no such thing as a utopia, never has been, never will be. People hate each other, all you can do is make sure you're one of the good guys.

OK, I'm back.
Joshie just whooped my butt. 49:22
justin 33/m/212

Just to clarify, I get that utopia is impossible, and I also get that there is a natural human survival instinct that when taken to the extreme leads to conflict.

I guess I was just riffing on what I wish, the key is wish our world could be.

I think that the motto that we defend those who can’t defend themselves is both true and misleading. Like many idea’s that start out accurate, over time they get manipulated and the motto / slogan is used as a rallying cry to justify our actions. True in WW II, not so much in Iraq, that isn’t why we went there in the first place.

If we were in Darfour fighting for those people, then I think you have a case.

In our current situation Iraq is a poor example of our troops dying for our freedom.

God bless our troops

CD

Why isnt xfit mentioned in this

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/07/fashion/07fitness.html?_r=1&ref=fitnessandnutrition&oref=slogin

Resting peacefully...............................

What should you do, Stick to the weights as prescribed in WOD or lower the weight for a faster paced workout?

Yeah, if only Saddam had killed hundreds of thousands of people...we'd have a reason to go in. I agree that there is no reason we should have gone in the second time. We should have done it right the first time and overthrown the regime when we had the popular support of America, the Iraqi people, and the rest of the world. The reasons we went in are irrelevant at this point. Going in to stop atrocities while securing a lot of the world's oil supply (face it, it's a national interest) would have been a perfectly justifiable reason to take military action as it was in other parts of the world during the '90s. However, we based the reasons on WMDs and imminent threat to American soil. Oh well, the end result is the same. Personally, I think that we shouldn't have gone in when we did. Like I said, it should have been dealt with long ago, but apparently genocide in Iraq wasn't in our national interest in 1988 and the 90s after 91. However, the world is a better place without mass murdering f'heads like Saddam. We invaded for the wrong reasons and executed poorly...now we have to fix it. We can whine about war, and the mistakes we made, or we can face reality and be part of the solution.

Some informative comments thus far. Starting to wonder if the usual heavyweights are going to make an appearance.

Kate, all is well at The Chaos Compound. Lots of downed trees, though. Funny, the sirens did not go off until most of the storm was over and past.

joey

I really appreciate all the friction these rest day discussions trigger. I understand a great deal of us are currently or have been in the military, but I appreciate the liberal standpoint and I may be one of the most liberal Republicans out there. I think it's no accident that the articles presented ruffle a few feathers. Controversy is the only way to grow, as long as we stay together. It's when we split off into factions and cut ourselves off from anyone who disagrees with us that we cut ourselves off from further progress.

"Zero excuses"
Alex

Today we did...

57/M/188 Back Squats 7x5 reps 205,225,230,230,230

47/F/125 'Helen' 21:08 35 lbs. KB

We'll be on the road for 10 days. We'll be doing some of Eva T's equipment free workouts. Thanks for the great workouts Eva...

145lbs/31yoa

I know its a rest day, but I did this anyway.

3 rounds for time:

9 muscle ups
15 KB swings, 24kg
21 double unders

Time: 15:04

MUs were very slow as I had no chalk. I think I could've done this under 10 minutes had there been chalk. And the on double under #16 in round 3, something popped in the back of my knee. The rest this weekend will be huge.

Thanks for the responses about 9/11; it's my opinion that if a car is heading my direction while I'm walking in the street, and say 10 or 15 people tell me to get out of the way and I don't, it is my fault I get hit, even if the driver has full intent to run me down. I can defend myself by getting out of the way. Also, if I knew the driver was going to get into his car and run me down beforehand, and I have every ability to stop that person and I don't, well, I'm just asking for trouble. Sorry guys, I disagree about 9/11. Our government dropped the ball.

And I do like some of Ron Paul's ideas, not all of them, and not enough to want him as President, but he'd make a heck of an advisor. How's that for a run on sentence? Take care all, and excellent reading.

Post finally popped out at #97. I think it covers the issue reasonably well.

I will add that the point of this article--of the reevaluation of the war--is not to ignore the high emotions of the time, or the context of the war's frequent mismanagement. No one will deny that LBJ bears a lot of the responsibility for the perception of the war on the part of the public.

The point is to assess, now dispassionately, what would objectively have been the right move. Given that the war started in Vietnam, and resulted--after our failure--in the falls of both Cambodia and Laos to Communists--we can infer that at least some elements of the Domino Theory were correct. We know now with complete certainty that Ho was an ardent Communist whose use of nationalistic rhetoric was intended to mislead foreign intellectuals into support of his cause.

We know that the war did in fact slow Communist expansion, as it was enormously expensive to the Soviets and, if I'm not mistaken, the Chinese. THey got what they wanted, but at an enormous price.

The overarching intent of the conflict was to show that we would "bear any burden and pay any price" in the defense of liberty. Had we persevered, we would have shown that clearly. The goal of going into Vietnam would have been achieved, and Communism put on the defensive much sooner.

Instead, numerous nations were subverted in the 1970's around the world. This was enabled by the inaction of America in the wake of what the Left claimed then was a victory for the cause of social and political justice, and which we now know to have been quite the opposite. In effect, we stood and watched.

The Soviets began funding in the 1960's, among other things, Palestinian terrorism.

Here is a good link: http://actseattle.wordpress.com/2008/02/01/the-communist-roots-of-palestinian-terror/

Everywhere they went, they called their efforts at the destruction of existing forms of government, --and imposition of what we might term "Communistic Sharia"--"wars of national liberation". This was an intentional deception, and even though we now know this, the Left in America and elsewhere continues to emote like their positions at that time were right. That they helped someone by marching in the streets, and interfering with our military's ability to do its job.

We just recently saw Code Pink protest a Marine officer recruiting station in Berkeley. One has to ask: how many lives have they saved, and how many has the Marine Corps saved? Who exactly do they want to send over to Darfur (Under the able command of Amnesty International--maybe they'll get Sting or Bono as a general)?

These protests, and the ideas behind them, are nonsensical. Although they could at least plead ignorance back in the 60's, the amount of information available now makes it self evident that the only means of persisting in their sundry illusions is willed and very intentional ignorance.

This is why articles like this need to be written. We know what happened when we left. We know how the Vietnamese now live.

We can also plainly see that in invoking the metaphor of Vietnam, the leftist enemies of our troops want to engender a similar situation in Iraq, which will occasion a similar disaster. It is unnecessary. It is wrong. And unless I'm misreading the tenor of American opinion, it won't happen.

First one finally came out at #97. Another one in the hopper. The filter seems to have indigestion. It's quite impossible to say what triggered it.

Dunkin donuts coffee used to be great now it tastes like crap. Starbucks all the way for me! I usually make my own though... organic fair trade french roast from Tjs is pretty good.

Since most of our contemporary students learn more about McCarthyism than Communism, this link might provide a bit of light corrective reading:

http://www.newcriterion.com/archives/26/02/inhuman-power-of-the-lie-the-great-terror-at-40

It discusses the Stalinist Terror. Few know that Stalin killed more people in the Ukraine alone than Hitler slaughtered in the Holocaust. That was just one event in one regime.

I will add, too, that on contemplation it seems quite clear that the Cambodian Killing Fields can with justice be placed on the laps of the procolonial (providing it was Communist colonizers) protesters of the 60's. We may or may not have aggravated the situation through bombing, but it was quite clear that the government of Cambodia solicited and wanted our help. Had we provided it, 3 million Cambodians would not have died needlessly in a pointless effort to recreate a utopia that never existed.

Mickey #7,

In what way did you find Herman's article politically biased? Or is that your conclusion simply because it was published in the WSJ? In what way did Herman align the honor of American soldiers with the ideology of the Wall Street elite? Is it your opinion that the WSJ represents a “Wall Street elite”, and if so, who do you include in the phrase? Bill Gates, the world's richest leftist and monopolist? What does aligning honor mean anyway? “Their rhetoric” being plural must refer to the soldiers!?

Is an article pro-military because it reports on a campaign? Or is it situational - pro-military depends on which side wins? If so, then the bias is yours.

Are you anti-profit? That might explain everything. How do pro-profit interests flow from troop deaths? You should participate more in rest day. It consumes Marxists.

You seemed to have missed the whole theme of the article. It's about media distortion. And speaking of alignment, you appear to have taken offense to the article because you are sympathetic to the motives of the media in their misrepresentation.

Several have already noted in this thread that media tactics in Vietnam are aligned with media tactics in Iraq. But the media motives then were different than the media motives today. While in both cases the motives are extreme left, the tactics of the left have changed.

In Vietnam, the left held a philosophical view that the US should not resist Communism. It held to a theory called the Great Convergence Theorem that Communism would become more and more democratic, while the US became more and more socialistic, until in the end we had world peace PLUS socialism. This theory was the academic, philosophical underpinning for a no-war, populist political platform.

No more. Today, the left is chafed from having lost so much power. Now the motive is to defeat Bush at all costs, even at the cost of the war effort and at the cost of American lives. It has resurrected the slogans with which it procured our defeat in Vietnam and tried to attach them to the Global War on Terror - corporate greed (was rubber, is oil), not a monolith, quagmire, zillions killed, carpet bombing, criminal American troops, civil war, can't win, death, maiming. The philosophical propaganda has degenerated into a rabid, hate Bush mantra, but it still feeds a no-war, populist political platform.

Convergence failed. There's no good left philosophy any more.

The lesson lies in the lies, not in the motivation. It is a political tactic, not philosophical. Failure to recognize the tactic for what it is hamstrings our country, whichever party is in power. Now as then, it causes us to give sanctuary, and it encourages the enemy to fight. We grind up lives because we won't cross a line. Whoever holds the power to surrender puts just what he wants to risk on the table. These strategic rules of engagement cost lives in Korea, in Vietnam, and all too much now in the Middle East.

Bingo, #21

The Korean outcome was a minor disaster compared to Vietnam, but a disaster nonetheless. We spent a fortune in lives and material for a stalemate. We created a sanctuary for communism in perpetuity -- a dangerous, evil Pinocchio that lives on without its Geppetto.

Used today to try and catch up. Did the Back Squat and Push Jerk days..

Back Squat 5 rounds 3 each at 275 lb

Push Jerk at 7 rounds, 105 lbs.

50 yoa newbie, 5'08, 180.

Used today to try and catch up. Did the Back Squat and Push Jerk days..

Back Squat 5 rounds 3 each at 275 lb

Push Jerk at 7 rounds, 105 lbs.

50 yoa newbie, 5'08, 180.

Did Joshie today since I missed Tuesday. Was called into work on a barricaded person.

Christian Sieber #33

Your model for the media in Vietnam vis a vis Nazism doesn't work. The article provides evidence for the accusation that the media was disloyal. In Vietnam, that disloyalty was successful.

Your model for neocons, the Iraq War, the Tet Offensive, and negatives of the Vietnam War is even more flawed. Your connections are jarring. Who were these bad NeoCons and what was their evil movement? How did they influence Congress to authorize using force in Iraq as a part of the War on Terror? Where is the connection between the Tet Offensive and the Congressional authorization or Bush's policies? What happened to 9/11? What happened to bin Laden's 1998 declaration of war against the US? What about the real reasons for the Iraq Campaign that were passed into law in October, 2002? What about the Clinton era policy to remove Saddam passed in October, 1998? What about Saddam's use of WMDs? What about Saddam throwing out the inspectors? All a NeoCon conspiracy? A NeoCon cover-up?

If the Tet Offensive was anything it was a departure from insurgency tactics. General Giap abandoned his guerrilla war in the woods. Instead he massed troops around Saigon for a decisive attack against an army, and attempted to rally South Vietnamese for a simultaneous uprising against their government. It was a disaster all around for Giap, and he prepared to negotiate a surrender. But wait! He turned on the 10 o'clock news and Walter Cronkite. The Americans thought they had lost! The NVA had taken the embassy. All Giap had to do was shut his yap and wait. The US was going to surrender.

The lesson for warfare is quite different than you guess. Don't quit when you're ahead. Suspect what you read in the newspapers. Figure out who the enemy is and what he doesn't want to risk, then take it from him. Rinse and repeat.

Your timing is off on the surge, along with your analysis. The surge started in about June, 2007. When Petraeus reported to Congress in September, he claimed 31 insurgent leaders captured or killed (which was no part of his COIN manual, by the way). Al Sadr ordered his militia to stand down on August 29, 2007, with some nonsense about too many Shia Muslim pilgrims being killed. Too many militia leaders had been taken, pilgrim! He had his militia stand down for the same reason that Gaddafi abandoned his nuclear weapons and the Sunnis realigned themselves. These moves were motivated by a most personal and immediate fear.

The reason for the downturn in violence is a loss of supplies and leadership, coupled with the emergence of domestic resistance. Maybe it's enough for the Iraqis to take over. If not, we must take out the al Sadr's. That's a good idea either way because it will save lives. Al Sadr can't continue indefinitely if he's dead.

If I read ONE more article about how incredibly awesome our troops are, it wont be enough.

If I read one more article about the failed lame policies of the Bush necon administraition, it will be not enough.

Without question our troops are not deserviving of the policy the neocons implemented. Is the current Shia government- which can readily be argued is bound to Iran - better than the Saddam government? Shame on the neocons and those who believe it is better for America to have a Shia dominated govermenet which likely has no reason, need, desire, or wantonness to reconcile with the Sunni.

Necons: Just stop, please just stop. Our troops rock. Your constant sniping at liberals in defense of a failed policy which has nowwhere to go but failure is just downright lame. I DARE any neocon out there to show me 1 SHRED of evidence which can substantiate that the current Shia government is wanting to reconcile. By the way, speeches don't count. ACTIONS DO COUNT. And if any of you try to argue de-baathification law, stop before you go further. Do not allow me to drop facts on your sorry SOB's, or your demise is coming. Wait, facts are the most feared thing of neocons. Please, argue de-baathification law passage.

Blaming the media is the oldest, most immature, and naive argument the necons have when all else has failed to try to prove their case. Grow up and get a diaper, I'll pay for it, your arguments are as lame as Jane Fonda.

Barry #97

Two important exceptions to your fine Vietnam summary, riddled with mixed metaphors:

The difference in the value of life, or equivalently, concern for humanity is stark. It's not a distinction between Asians and Occidentals/Caucasians or whatever. Nor is it an ant mentality among the populace. The distinction is found comparing Western Civilization to others, between democracies and totalitarian governments. Murder, torture, brutality and fear worked on their people are the earmarks of the rise to power in those non-Western cultures. These tactics inure leaders and slaves alike to the genocide and class extinction employed to retain power. It's not just the Hos, Maos, and Pol Pots, but the Hitlers, Stalins, Abd-al-Wahhabs, and Saddams, too. The populace are pawns and fully expendable to satisfy the ambitions of the leaders. It's individualism and freedom in the West, vs. collectivism and subservience in the others. It's the Geneva Convention on the one hand and Madrasahs on the other.

Values when held by an enemy are key to a winning strategy.

The mistake in Vietnam was the opening, not the end game. It was a chess game where White couldn't cross the fourth rank, and the Black king couldn't be attacked. It was WWII where we couldn't leave North Africa or England. We gave sanctuary to Ho, the North, China, and even the Soviet Union. From then on, except for token bombing strikes and minor incursions in hot pursuit, we defaulted a winning strategy to the enemy: it could decide what it wanted to put on the table at every moment. There was no incentive to surrender but exhaustion. That was the end game in Vietnam.

Vietnam was the middle game in the Cold War, and far more successful at that. Vietnam might be viewed as the opening in the War on Terror, because it convinced the jihadists that we were a paper tiger. Our repeated failures from Reagan to Clinton '42 to answer dozens of escalating attacks leading up to 9/11 reinforced that belief. It took a George W. Bush to be fed up; 9/11 was the last straw. The jihadists had, as Yamamoto may have said, awakened the sleeping giant. Kamikazes are not the only coincidence.

Have you noticed how much more it takes to get a leftist fed up?

The lesson is to take from the enemy what he cherishes most. Iraq is the plum in the pie of Muslim hegemony over the Middle East. Now we just need to tie it off.

We may be using different words, but as you know we are largely in agreement.

With respect to the ability to sustain mass slaughter we need look no further than WW1, arguably the turning point in Western Civilization from progress to the ascendancy of the possibility of Leftism. It gave us the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, and the Dada movement, itself the beginning of the end for Western Art.

In that war, on some single days--the first day of the Somme comes to mind--40-50,000 men might be killed, and left to rot in crater covered wastelands. They did this out of patriotism, and it doesn't seem unlikely that many of the NVA likewise acted out of a sense of honor and patriotism. To be sure, their compliance was compelled, but I don't think we should discount the power of skillfully told lies.

Communists are really, really good liars. However, now that the game is up, it takes a really, really dumb person to continue from this distance to believe the things they said then--and say now, if you read official Chinese and Cuban communications--knowing what we know now.

#190: I take from your post that you dislike people you term "neocons", most of whom are likely not. Beyond that, you are fully incoherent. If you want to make a claim about something, do it.

If you want to argue that the elected leader of Iraq is more harmful and autocratic than Hussein, I would like to hear what facts you might marshall in support of that laughable claim.

Barry #192,

The point I'd like to drive home is that in war one wants the enemy to surrender, conditionally or not. The question then is who has the power to surrender, and what would motivate him to do so.

So the question is not what motivates troops to join a leader. That's a recruitment problem that is not likely to end a war. There are a whole variety of methods: appeals to God and duty, rewards from money now to virgins later, all backed by conscription by draft or kidnapping. Recruitment boils down to a materiel shortage - men, shamed women, children, madrasah robots, and Down syndrome victims.

The enemies we have faced since WWI share some distinctly non-Western characteristics. They were territorial imperialists and totalitarian, practicing mass murder, maiming, and torture. The latter means that the leaders are insensitive to human costs and will not surrender because of heavy civilian or military casualties. The former means that the price they should pay for aggression is measured on maps in square miles. We never even threatened that in Korea or Vietnam. Bush '43 may have been brilliant, or he may have just stumbled into the magnificent policy of dicing up the radical Muslim world and pacifying bits of it in the East, the West, and the Middle. It's brilliant, and could be a major and beneficial reshaping of the geopolitical globe.

Now we face a different mix of enemy. We have the Western-manic al Sadrs and bin Ladens who value at most their lives. So that is the price to exact from them. The others are the leaders of the three surviving radical Muslim states, and Bush is still exacting their price. If they won't come to the heel, then we will need to shrink their little fiefdoms.

Jeff,

I believe I understand what you are saying. As I understand it, you are arguing in effect that our military solutions--certainly in Vietnam and Korea, and arguably now--were not oriented around disabling the ability of our enemies to continue.

North Korea is still a horrific little kingdom that seems to survive literally on gangsterism: http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/990215/archive_000266.htm

Vietnam is still Communist, and we failed not only to protect the South--which we had done, and which victory we abdicated for no good reason--but to instead do to them what they wanted to do to the South: invade and control them. Short of that, we failed to attack the sources of their ability to fight, most notably through militarily thorough and intelligent bombing.

We failed to support the Cambodians in their fight against the Khmer Rouge, for no reason other than domestic political support for Communism.

At the same time, the overarching strategy of containing Communism, by and large, worked. The only nation I can think of on the verge of going in the direction of Communism is Venezuela. The Vietnamese and Chinese have in effect abandoned the intellectual foundations of their own secular religion, in favor of programs that actually work, which is to say open Capitalism.

With respect to radical Islam, we are dealing less with totalitarian governments bent on subverting the West--although as you say they do exist.

In my view, we are dealing more with perceptions and ideas. In the radical asymmetry of a world with suitcase nukes, and anthrax, we need to worry both about who is creating these things, as well as the sheer number of people willing to use them.

Iran needs to fear us. Syria and North Korea need to fear us. At the same time, we need to be much more effective at selling our system and our ideas.

A fundamental heuristic I use is that there is an inverse relationship between the quality of an idea, and the need for the use of force to compel it. Bad ideas have to be compelled. Good ideas, like rational self interest, can be sold.

What we have to balance is convincing people not to fight us, with the actual use of force. As the line goes in National Treasure, the secret to bluffing is that sometimes you have to hold all the cards.

For a long time, our military was feared. Following Vietnam, many decided that whatever our paper value, we were unwilling to actually use force against those who wanted to harm us, so our superiority didn't matter.

Iran rubbed our noses in it. The Somalis got us to cut and run, etc. We are in agreement on this.

At the same time, we need at all times to keep the end game in mind. We want peace. We want prosperity. We want the North Koreans to achieve political liberalization and legal prosperity. We want Arabs throughout the Middle East to achieve the same. We want those who rule China with an iron hand to finally realize that their own rational self interest involves abandonment in principle of ideas they have already abandoned in practice.

Communism doesn't work. It is not just, it is not fair, and it makes no ones lot in life lighter or easier. It has nothing to recommend it and only wilful self delusion can convince anyone otherwise.

We outlasted the Soviet Union, and it's just not clear to me we can't outlast the rest of the holdout rogue regimes. A visual image I see is that of the water of prosperity and liberalization sweeping through areas around these rogue nations. If this continues long enough, internal pressure will come about and weaken the central governments enough that change will come on its own.

Obviously, we need to support dissidents in every manner we can, and we need to be piping our messages relentlessly into every conceivable medium we can--internet, satellite tv, radio. I would even want to recruit on the street proselyizes to literally sit in cafes and talk up America.

We don't want to tell people the details of how they live their lives, but its clear enough that most people in the world, given the choice, would much rather govern themselves than be told what to do. They would much rather be prosperous than poor, and would much rather be virtuous than venal.

And if anyone can show me how Bin Laden is going to get into an Islamic Heaven, I would be shocked. Islam is clearly an expansionistic doctrine, but it also has potentially liberal elements, and at the end of the day it is not barbaric. Islam has achieved tolerance and prosperity in the past, and I see no reason it cannot again.

Practically, we do of course need to figure out what to do with Syria, Iran and North Korea, as well as, long term, China. My own preference is constant covert shrinking of their bases of power and influence, coupled with containment. In effect, to whittle away at what is evil in their systems, and work to build what is good.

That's probably enough for now. I hope this makes sense. I typed it hastily.

Barry #194,

I would make a little change to your summary of my thesis. We should not be focused on disabling the ability of our enemies to fight on, but instead on their willingness. A disabling tactic leads to wanton slaughter and scorched earth, costly and distasteful operations. A willingness tactic leads to penalizing the enemies to alter their trade-offs by making their aggression counter-productive to their own objectives.

When I think of Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, and bin Laden I perceive the similarities of territorial imperialists and the worst kind of totalitarianism. The philosophy of Nazism, Communism, and the weak and strong forms of radical Islam are about as different as they can be, but irrelevant to the wars. Those philosophies are merely recruiting tools, as notable in their violations as in their observation. The philosophies are rationales for the conventional autocratic goals of the leaders.

I don’t think we outlasted Communism. We blocked its expansion, and drove it into bankruptcy. In the end game, it was unable to respond to Reagan’s Strategic Defense Initiative (Star Wars) that threatened to neutralize their only rattly saber: ICBMs. Even the idiots/leftists at the Union of Concerned Scientists couldn’t save their precious Soviet Union. The UCS (publicly) said SDI could never work; the Soviet generals knew better, or at least feared better.

I reject the notion that we are in a battle for men’s minds, unless by men you mean the handful of leaders now in power. What we need to do with the states you list, Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and North Korea, is pacify them. They, specifically al-Asad, Khamenei/Ahmadinejad, King Abdallah, and Kim Chong-il, must stop their exports of fighters, weapons, terrorism, and Wahabism under penalty of losing more land and control, and eventually of following in Saddam’s footsteps.

Yes, I think we are in agreement.

The question becomes one of tactics. Fundamentally, we want to develop and fill out a continuum with as many options as possible between doing nothing, and invading rogue nations. Ultimately, an overarching desire to take from our enemies what they value has to get translated--if the military is involved--into operational orders. You tell a pilot to hit a target at specific coordinates. You tell a ground team to take something specific out, or grab a specific person whose picture is handed out, with any ,known scars and tattoos. Etc.

All of these types of activities represent escalations, and it seems to me we have options short of them.

I'm short on time, but here are a few ideas. Syria needs to be made into an international pariah for her continuing role in the destabilization of Lebanon. We need to make it very clear what that role is, and in a year or two, once Iraq is stabilized more fully, we need to negotiate with the government of Lebanon the landing of an effective combat team, with power to pacify areas that are working to overthrow the central government. We need not do that immediately, but that credible threat needs to be made, so that Syria finally does the right thing and stops abusing her neighbor. That would be a step in the right direction.

With respect to North Korea, we need to treat her criminal enterprises as a national security matter, and shut them down, using whatever means necessary. She is starving, and it is only through crime that even the loyal elites are kept fed. We need to get into Il's head, and figure out what might make him give up power. He is somewhat, but not from what I can tell fully, insane. People fail to understand sometimes that appeals to "reason" need to appreciate tactically what for that person constitutes "reason". I have reasoned successfully with many drunks. It is a question of mindset.

We need to point out publicly and often the massive and philosophically untenable hypocrisy of China. She now has a 100 billionaires, and 300,000 millionaires. http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display/web/2008/01/08/rich_chinese/

Moreover, the workers producing the products that make these people wealthy are doing so under conditions pretty much exactly like those of the early Industrial Revolution, which caused Marx to start all the hoopla and misguided economic theory in the first place. They are nothing other than an totalitarisn oligarchy whose entire economic output depends on the abuse of workers, unhealthy environmental practices, and an overarching Capitalistic paradigm.

That the State is in effect an investment broker matters little, other than that the possible unhealthy combination of political and economic motives is much larger.

This needs to be pointed out. What exactly do they stand for? The workers are being abused. There are vast disparities of wealth, and the State there has a power never possessed even by the worst of our Robber Barons: that of arbitrary arrest for any crime whatever, real or imagined, and in particular for speaking out in favor of political reform.

That's all I have time for. Hope this is helpful to someone.

Net, net: the more people you can win to your side through persuasion, the less people you need to kill. Therefore in theory the money spent on a Division of soldiers could, properly applied, be spent just as usefully on informational warfare. The benefit of persuasion, too, is that it lasts. Unlike the Communists, we are selling a quality product.

I haven't addressed radical Islam directly here, but don't have time. The basic logic is the same, though.

Jeff:

re: Korea. I suppose a more accurate expansion of my question would be: why is the outcome of Korea AFTER the combat victory was secured not a desired or acceptable outcome in Iraq?

Combat against a foe or proxy foe with combat victory secured->local control established->elected government/capitalist, basically free-market economy secured by long-term low-impact military presence to ensure stability. A secondary gain of regional influence to secure whatever American interests might be, as well as an on-going deterrent to re-establishment of the oringinal foe or foe proxy. This end-game was successful to a greater or lesser degree in Germany, Japan, the Phillipines, and Korea.

Bingo #198,

Korea was a costly stalemate. That was the end game. Your postwar description is for South Korea, and it was unchanged except by time and graveyards from prewar South Korea.

If we departed Iraq self-sufficient in the political and economic state of South Korea we would be victorious. That seems to be Bush's objective.

If we left after a stalemate, Saddam the Second would be running a tyrannical country, united with the three other terror exporters, and back to pushing us and Israel off the continent, reinvigorated.

South Korea is a model for postwar Iraq. The Korean War is a model for how not to fight anywhere.

Jeff:

Fair enough.