Rest! Thank you!

A much needed break.

Everyone wants to see the "good guys winning." However, not everyone is going to agree with the reasons for them being there. It's hard to say if the war is in fact "illegal under international law," because there is no international police to uphold this international law. The war in Iraq clearly doesn't follow Just War theory. Of course, a more presentable narrator would have conveyed this better than a talking cat. May be an owl.

I was so pleased to hear that "Redacted" did so badly. It shows that the American people don't want to see Hollywood's warped view of what is going on over there. The difference between YouTube videos and Hollywood is that people on YouTube actually put together coherent arguments based on facts when they argue against the war rather than take a story from an established liar and try to make it into something that looks like reality.

Hollywood has been against the war from before day one. I remember when the group of actors (was it Sean Penn?) went to Baghdad and chained themselves to SAMs to try to prevent us from bombing them. I was looking forward to slinging some HARM and then hearing that one of those guys was killed. Unfortunately for me they grew some sense and went home a couple days before we unleashed our fury. Nice try guys. not!

One more thought. How many of the Hollywood types do you think actually know anybody who has ever been in the military? Some of my friends have told me I'm the only one they know who has been. If a bunch of midwestern Republicans only know one guy, a Hollywood executive definitely doesn't know anyone, unless you count the guy who used to beat him up in third grade and take his lunch money.

-JP

Hey, not really on topic. But I had to take a moment and brag. I did Cindy today and hit 21 rounds 2 better than last time I did it 2 months ago to the day. I felt like I passed a milestone by getting over 20 rounds. Love my CF.

Ironically a few of the people caught running in the photo have their toes pointed to the sky....which is one of the taboos of POSE running (if I'm not mistaken). I'm still learning this new style myself so take my comment with a grain a salt hehe.

I don't know where to start on how wrong he is about the pushing and pulling comments. How do you suppose we get off the ground if we don't apply downward propulsive forces? Do we just magically levitate by pulling our foot off the ground without applying upward propulsive (what he calls pushing) forces?

BTW- Some of the research cited on Romanov's cite as supporting his techniques actually refute it's effectiveness. Recent research evidence suggests that Pose technique reduces running economy and may even increase the likelihood of injury. I'm not sure why so many people have fallen for the pseudo-science.

After seeing the Charlotte picture, I have a question. To be a real CF'er, do we have to shave our heads?

Hard to compare audiences who pay nothing for some 3 to 20 minute videos of real war to a full length 90 minute 7 dollar plus ticketed fiction feature. It's like comparing internet porn to an Angelia Jolie film. One is the real action and the other is a reel reaction. The reel reaction being the POV of the film maker as any film needs to be, it ain't life its an arists interpretation or POV on life ( the lie that tells the artists truth). And real live action has no POV it just is. Hollywood is and most artists, are by nature mostly liberal, it is a way of life, just as most soldiers are mostly conservative, we need both soldiers and artists and hopefully we learn from both.

Impossible. Hollywood is just ... smarter than everyone else. (Right?)

I have to say its about time that Hollywood's thinly veiled political rants fell flat on their faces at the box office. And not to provoke an argument but I would have to disagree with the supposition that an international police force doesn't exist. Clearly that role has been left to the US and her armed forces. That is not to say we're always right, but that we have not given up the field. Many countries of our world have left chaos and havoc reign so long as it occurs away from their borders. However selectively, America has deployed its young men and women in harms way to make a difference time and again. Its tiring to those of us who serve to watch our enemies information campaign be waged in our cineplexes by our own countrymen. I appreciated the author pointing this out, and I celebrate the failure of the films mentioned.

VAS -- Re: your statement that "The war in Iraq clearly doesn't follow Just War theory."

I take it you're having some issues figuring out who the "good guys" are. If so, I'm sad for you.

Most of these videos on youtube have less than two million viewers (none of whom paid for watching the videos). The movies the article cites have had much larger audiences (who actually paid to watch the movies). I really don't see the trend towards watching "real war" on the internet instead of watching "reel war" in theaters.

This is the trend I see: War movies that are about war are popular (Saving Private Ryan and Black Hawk Down) and war movies about the politics of war are less popular.

Despite my distaste for anti-war Hollywood directors and producers, it can't really be labeled as a homogeneously anti-war establishment. There are plenty of movies that come out to honor our troops. A couple examples are "We Were Soldiers" and "Black Hawk Down."

I can't say that I agree with some of the previous posts either. A video is a video, regardless of its quality, if it's posted on Youtube, or a multi-million dollar Hollywood project, it's still just as vulnerable to its creators personal bias. Personally, I don't take either all that seriously. Logic, history, relevant documents, and discussion and debate between experts are the only credible sources. Everything else is just an opinion and not worthy of much consideration.

I strongly support our troops and have no doubt that they are "good guys." However, our country's foreign policy has, is, and will always be designed around our own self-interest. When it isn't, it's the result of irrational populism and the political pressure generated by it. I support our troops for their selfless service. Not because they always carry out just or intelligent policy, but because they put their lives on the line without debating the merit of that policy. Right now our policy is seriously flawed. Look at the history, listen to our experts, not our politicians, and certainly don't listen to youtube videos or Hollywood.

Hell yeah rest day....Im going Surfing

No one wants to watch stories about an actors biased view of war. It is just like how "24" is progressively sucking. I don't see to many russian,big oil, white supremicists beheading videos. Saturday night live sucks too, Bush jokes can't carry your show.

Ok i have to call BS on this POSE method!

You do have to push on a acceleration phase (first 10 yds) of a sprint. The body position is a 45 degree angle and you actually push yourslef forward. after wards you do come out into an upright position. Then you start your pull phase of running.

listen to the video, he states that there should no push at any phase of running.

here is a lesson i posted before, but some people are too scare to try. Push a car, what is your body angle? What motion does your feet go, a push or pull? Its physics on how we as humans fist overcome resitence forces.

Anti-war novels and movies have a long and noble tradition. "All Quiet on the Western Front," "Johnny Got His Gun" (by Dalton Trumbo who fell victim to anti-Red nutcase Joe McCarthy and was blacklisted by Hollywood), "Catch 22." And of course there's "Mash," both movie and the TV show that ran for an eternity.

Whining about artists who dramatize the ugliness and absurdity of war is like complaining about banks that charge interest on loans.

Captain Victory --
I never asked for you to feel sorry for me. Nor am I confused as to who the good guys are, as that is open to anyone's interpretation. It seems to me that you don't understand why the current war in Iraq not up to Just War Theory criteria.

Just War Theory states that before going to war, the following have to be met:

1. Just Cause - classically defined as a war of self-defence or coming to the defense of a third country, the just cause criterion has been expanded to include intervention for actions that shock the conscience of mankind. Some would also include a preemptive strike in this categorie, but only if it is against an imminent danger.
You can argue that the US is fighting a war of self-defense against terrorism. However, at the beginning of the war, there was no clear connection between Iraq and terrorism.

2. Competent Authority - a war must be fought by a nation (not a private group) and the leader commiting a nation to war must be acting on behalf of the people. Over time international approval, as the approval of the UN Security Council, has been included in this.
Polls showed that the public was opposed to this war at the beginning. The UN never approved this war. NATO didn't even support it.

3. Right Intention - generally means returning the situation to the status quo ante. If personaly gain is mixed into the intentions, this is ok, so long as it is not the prevailing reason for going to war. And, of course, the intentions must be honest, not lies.
Regime change does not qualify here.
This also brings up the question if the US officials truly believed that there were WMD's in Iraq. If they knew there were no WMD's but said there were, then this also wasn't a right intention for war.

4. Last Resort - all peaceful alternatives must have been exhausted before going to war. This criterion is controversial, as you can never truly have tried all possible alternatives to war. However, the ones in place were working. There was an arms embargo inplace; Iraq dismantled its nuclear program; 1000's of chemical munitions had been destroyed; 90-95% of the WMD's program was found and destroyed by UN inspectors. Basically, the enforcement, containment, deterrence programs were working, as all that's needed for them is a leader that wants to remain in power.

5. Probability of Success - before going to war, one must be certain of his own success. Personally, I believe the US meets this in any war, no matter what nation they go up against. However, speaking from retrospect, we were successful in taking Iraq and capturing Saddam; not successful in destroying WMD's (as none were found) or in stopping terrorism. In fact, to have any hope of stopping a terrorist group the size of Al-Qaeda an international effort is needed.

6. Proportionality - the good that will come from fighting the war must not be outweighed by the harm that will come from it. Or, to put another way, less harm must come from fighting the war than from doing nothing.
Again looking back, there is more insurgence now than before the war. Terrorist recruitment is up. The US is disliked by Arab countries. And don't forget the monetary ($466 billion) and human (>4000 coalition lives and 100,000 - 150,000 Iraqi lives - Iraq Health Minister) cost of the war.

Again, all 6 of the previous points must be met before going to war for the war to be considered just by the Just War Theory. The following 2 must be met during the course of the war.

1. Proportionality of Means - No more force is used than what's needed. Lately, this has greatly been aided by precision guided weapons.

2. Discrimination - soldiers must be targeted and effort must be made to prevent harm to civilians (ie: bombing from a lower altitude will allow for better discrimination, but puts the pilot in greater risk). Again, modern weapons proved very good at discrimination in 16 days it took to conquer Iraq (but not so good at the current rebuilding of it, as a previous rest day article pointed out).

So CaptainVictory, if you read all this, I believe you too would have to agree that the current Iraq war is not just as according to the Juat War Theory. Of course, this doesn't mean that a speedy withdrawl is in order, as that won't fix or undo anything that's already done.

VAS
Assuming anyone actually acknowldged the "Just War" criteria, Whether the Iraq war made the cut or not is wildly subjective.
1 I do argue that Iraq is part of the GWOT
2 CinC and congress approved the war
3 WMDs, horrible dictator etc.
4 12 years of a quasi war, inspectors still not given full access, that qualifies
5 14 days to Baghdad
6 No terrorist attacks against soft targets in US, brutal dictator removed.
I am not saying there weren't errors, in post operational planning but your "Just War" criteria is nonsense.

#18 VAS
1. Appreciate the Just War Theory 101. Or is that a cut and paste from The Nation magazine manifesto?

2. Where does the Just War Theory come from? Hmmmm.. You lefties.I thought you were all repulsed by anything religious, especially when it comes to the church/state issue you guys fear so much.

3. What does the Just War Theory have to do with the Article posted? I thought we were discussing the Hollywood Left's disconnect on what we the public consider entertainment.

Thanks for all the polysyllabic words! So heady.

"The ICCC and Kyoto treaty are me" -VAS

Sorry about that. "The ICC and Kyoto treaty are good for me!" -VAS

"The good guys"

- The good guys put truth and principle above self-interest.
- The good guys refuse to kill innocents regardless of who is giving the orders.
- The good guys fight to liberate their land from foreign occupation.

Can I ask a question....

when did the crossfit board become a place of debate for this kind of stuff???

#21
Under that criteria, nobody falls under the category.

#22
Always on rest days. It's unfortunate.

#22 -- every 4th day. you're welcome.

If you dislike hard-right hawking, you probably should refrain from visiting the board on a Rest Day. Although the cognitive dissonance when Coach posts a libertarian view of the War on Personal Responsibility is truly a thing of beauty...

#19, ABA
The just war theory originally comes from the Catholic Church. It is a well-known concept and has been around for centuries.

#25

That was my point, it was a rhetorical question. Thanks for the history lesson though.

The partisan clash came sooner than I expected, sounds like a dead-end argument if I ever heard one.

Tauger summarized my own thoughts perfectly. Also, I watched Ken Burn’s extremely long documentary recently and found it quite interesting and objective. I only say that because the list of movies and the tone of the opinion piece, seems to insinuate that people are tired of war preaching, which was far from the case in “the War”, and are turning to Youtube for military footage.

Finally, I would just like to put the figures of people viewing military footage on Youtube into perspective. As of today, the video of “the Britney Spears fan” crying on Youtube currently sits at around 1.4 million viewings in two months (seriously I didn’t know that before, I just looked it up…). Which probably just go to show that people will watch anything on Youtube to avoid actually doing work…

Hi all:
A couple of days late, but quick question.
I too had to use a machine for bench press, much to my shame. No bar and bench for the press. What would the equivalent be with dumbbells?
I'm just shy of 160lbs.
With the pullups, is kipping okay or are we supposed to do just hanging and pull up?
I was kipping and had so much momentum and pull that my sternum was almost clearing the bar.
Thanks.

Are they implying that we should never question what the government does? Iraq was and is an illegal war which I am not proud to be serving in right now. I will be home soon enough, though. Republican hawking is out of control and leading our country down a dark and destructive path. Nothing good is going to come out of the Iraq war.

Gotta love rest days!

My view on this war is we can't go back into the past, right, worng or indifferent. A decision was made and here we are, bottom line.

We could spend days, or even weeks, arguing what the right thing to do was. What does that solve? Nothing more than for people to talk about what the right path was that we should have taken. Were there WMDs? For those of you saying "Of course not!", how do you know? Where you here? Or are you just listening to what the media wants you to hear. I'm not saying there were or were not, in this instance, WMDs...just an example. Some people like arm-chair politics as much as arm-chair football, their way is always right...no question.

Here's my take: For those who think they have the answer please come on over here and share your wisdom. Afterall, we aren't doing something right otherwise you wouldn't be running your mouth. Take all of your "Well, what should have happened was..." BS and try to focus on what is important right now...THE TROOPS AND THEIR FAMILIES!

Hollywood, and a majority therein, should stick to making movies and keep people entertained. We pay actors to act! I could care less what their opinions are on anything but their next movie. They don't need me to run my mouth on how to make a movie and I really don't need to hear them tell me how to operate in a war.

Just my 2 cents.

So here now that I have been educated I will throw my 2 cents into the pot as well...

--- The CONFLICT... It is no longer classified as an actual war by the military, has had both pros and cons as has any conflict in our nations history. The soldiers unfortunatly always bear a HUGE brunt of the burden of the "higher powers" decisions in regards to our nations actions...

I am not going to say that our exsistance here is correct or incorrect.

From a soldiers perspective I will say that the most disheartening of all things I have learned after 3 deployments and 9 1/2 years served is the ability of some people backhome to forget NO SOLDIER WOKE UP AND SAID WOW>>> LETS GO TO IRAQ AND FIGHT FOR 5 YEARS ... Not one soldier I have served with has asked to die but we all understand that is the hazard of the profession we volunteered for. Thats the hazard of the job.
We leave our families, our friends, our homes, our lives to carry out the wishes of others and some of us don't come home.

My final though and I will leave this topic alone is my anger towards the people who protest the war at a soldiers funeral. This has got to be the upmost sign of disrespect ever at life. People justify it as carrying out the word of god but I wonder if I was to show up protesting the funeral of some CEO in the smoking industry I would get onslaughted for my disrespect to the family.... Why can't families be left alone in the events of death? No ones asking you to support the family... just let them have piece....

OK all rant over... Sorry!

#31 I could be mistaken, but the protesters you're referring to sound like the baptist crew (sect?)led by Fred Phelps that are protesting at funerals because they believe soldiers deaths are punishment by god for allowing homosexuals to exist in the US. I don't understand the logic either. I have seen this group mistakenly referred to as the "anti-war left" on several occasions (by who else but Fox).

Pardon my interruption...didn't take the day off as I was in transit from my home on FOB Warhorse (in the heart of it all, Diyala Province) to Kuwait and then back to my family in VA for holiday. I did yesterday's workout as rx'd
43/66"/185
315 x 3
335 x 3
335 x 3
355 x 3
355 x 3
This is all fascinating discourse on the war in Iraq. Over the past 10 months I have been blessed to serve with some of the finest professionals soldiers and officers in both the 3rd BDE/1st CAV and now 4th BDE/2 ID, got my CrossFit on with them, laughed and cried with them. Priceless. If you can read this, thank a teacher. Since it is in English, thank a soldier!

To #28
1. Different machines use different mechanisms but the main deviation is in the lack of free range of motion and need for stabilizer muscles to accomplish the repetition. If its all that you have available the point is to make improvements in repetitions amount and load as you progress, although free weights are much preferred.
2. I think if you look around at the site kipping pull-ups are essentially the rule. Also it allows you to accomplish more repetitions and utilizes more of your total body to accomplish each one.

I think people are definitely tired of the way Hollywood has been exploiting the war in order to make more money. People want to see the truth, and today's video cameras and computers are allowing that to happen. I know I'm tired of seeing someone else's point of view on CNN instead of the whole truth or just what some else(government) wants me to see.

Just my 2 cents on the POSE method:

You need to push against the ground for it to push back on you, moving you forward. Newton's third law. Pushing against the ground is unavoidable. That is, of course, you don't want to move anywhere.

Been home from Iraq for over a year now. Thought I'd gotten it out of my system, more or less. Not.

Watching a video for all of about 10 seconds puts me right back there. Heat, dust, smoke, pings, booms, whistles, shouts, screams, the odd but beautiful architecture, the dead stuff, the piles of broken stuff, the blackened things, people in huge billowing black dresses, & the intensity. Scary stuff, but also the most alive I ever felt.

That Haifa St. battle (from the video) was half a mile from my office. We all knew the tangoes were massing just up the street, and wondered when and if they were coming in. And, why we weren't going out after them? Kinda a politically charged topic: acknowledge that the tangoes were building up on the edge of the IZ? Sounds like, um, there's less control over the central US presence in Iraq than we'd like, huh? What's the RSO to do?

Decision time came when the bad guys knocked down the Blackwater little bird & executed the survivors. Game on. That was some NICE work by the Army. All quiet on Haifa Street after that.

Not much to say about Hollywood, other than they're ignorant about this war. Mighty ignorant, and apparently intentionally so. They've got some neat gizmos that make realistic looking movies and a great deal of imagination. But as far as their product that's supposed to depict war, well, I laugh at them. Hogwash. Smirk factor is running high. Those fancy little makeup wearing, set decorating, designer jeans donning, cologne spritzing, arugula salad crunching, tap dance extravaganza producing court jesters are making it up. Don't believe a word of it.

US Military are, well, really, just downright old fashioned noble guys. I acknowledge (and we court martial) the few but well publicized exceptions. But, the almost 100% majority of deployed US Mil are exquisitely behaved. They're living to the very highest standards of chivalry possible on this earth. Yeah, they really are.

Don't challenge this unless you have been there, and seen hundreds of them on a daily basis, doing what they do. They're not behaving well for the camera and then running amok when they're off film. They're doing good stuff, day in, day out. 24/7. And, if you haven't been there, well, what could you possibly really know? Just what the media likes to report, or maybe what you want to be the truth in order to condemn the US Military. Not much fact in the mainstream media. Just what will sell ads. US Soldiers, Marines, Sailors & Airmen really conduct themselves well in Iraq.

Why? Why not run rampant in a pack of murderous jackals? The answer is simple. It's an all volunteer force of committed patriots, usually descendents of veterans, and like their parents, they joined to protect and defend the US Constitution. They didn't join the military to become evil. There's plenty of gangs available for that purpose, and um, well you don't have to be punctual and wear shiny boots to join a gang. And, gangs pay better. Nope, our professional volunteer military joined because they're born defenders. Next, they all know that they're wildly outnumbered and living in someone else's country, and that if they run amok pillaging and plundering that they're going to make a lot of enemies & that will get them smoked. It's in their best interest to behave well, and they all know it.

The hollywood products are merely entertaining, from an unintended perspective. (some exceptions noted: BlackHawk Down, We Were Soldiers Once And Young, Band of Brothers, etc.) Ask someone who knows what the truth is about what's going on in Iraq before bothering to wasting your precious time on silly stuff produced by the total pansies that run Hollywood.

And, sorry JPW. You are a long time crossfitter, an intelligent poster, and are specifically excepted from inclusion on this list of soldier hating hollywoodsters.

Here's a film recommendation: 3 O'Clock to Yuma. Fun fiction, Russell Crowe, & Heroic Intent.

I thought "Team America" called it about right, with respect to actors.

With respect to the viewership of those videos, hopefully it's clear they are trying to increase the number of people who view them. Whatever those numbers were, they are now much higher.

I have a Zone diet question. I found the protein calculator at:

http://www.zoneliving.com/ProteinCalculator/tabid/350/Default.aspx

I put in my information (165, 72, 33.5, 6.5) with a "Very active" activity factor and it said that I should be eating 18 blocks of each category per day. Is this the same as what CrossFit recommends for optimal fitness with the CrossFit program or do you use a different formula? I pretty much do just the WOD for my exercise. Thanks anyone for the help.

Wait...what the heck does "rant" mean?

Good morning everyone. Wanted to say hello!

Forgot today was a rest day and am all hyped up so I'm gonna tear it up for a few and try a couple new things. Video clips to come.

Haven't read todays article. I usually print it out and then read it later so I atleast know what the heck some of you debate about. Nothing to add a the moment.

Off to get "HIDEOUS", as it was called yesterday! Love CF terms!

This F$#@in place is great! So glad to be here, so glad all of you are here!

~J~
~Train Hard and Push Through "IT"!~

Vas-

As an Iraq vet (and one which was outside the wire all the time), your thoughts were well written.

I'd like to tackle the proportionality of the "Just War" theory aspect. Our government threw out a repressive regime and installed it with a new one which is now more loyal to Iranian interets than to us. Propotionality (common sense)makes no case here.

Our great Great Coalition Provisional Authority Master of Cermonies, aka Paul Bremer, dismissd an entire Iraqi Army, leaving no standing internal military to assist in security. Once again, propotionality fails (for you who don't get it, proportionality is AKA common sense.) Rebuilding an Army while we fighta war? Nice job Rummy.

Additionally, Paul Bremer dismisses all Ba'ath party members from governemnt, military, police, and the Ministries (Governemnt). Today, Coalition Forces are not even working with the vasity or JV team of governemnt technocrats, its at minimum a C team of governemnt officials, with a massive lack fo experience. Guess where the A team went? Oh, thats right, Bremer fired them or they fled because the surrent Shia governemnt and militias targeted them (see below) Proportionality met? umm, no.

Moreover, one of the most undereported facts of Iraq: 2 million Iraqis fled outside the country due to violence, and 2 million more Iraqis fled to other areas inside the country due to violence. These people are called displaced persons or internally displaced persons. 4 million Iraqis out of 26 million are displaced, nearly 15%-20% or so of the population. In terms of the US population, take 45 million Americans, uproot them to communities outside their state or send them to Canada and Mexico. When these people return and go to their hoems and see someone else from another sect (Sunni-Shia) is living in it, what do you think will happen? Is $200 and an "I'm sorry" from the Shia controlled governemnt going to be enough?" Proportionality test met here? aka common sense? aka are things better than before? Please.

I could go on and on ad naseum on proportionality. Lack of electrcity since invasion, lack of public services, lack of potable water, lack of jobs, ad naseum.

The neo-cons out there need to do some fast fact checking on this war. Just because I have spent 3 years over here sure doesnt make me noble as SpiderChick appears to believe. It doesnt even make my opinion more valuable, albeit because of my job I can gurantee it makes me a hell of a lot more informed. I just thank God the amazing people I work with no longer drink the neo-con and right wing kool-aid and have sobered up on the gargantuian (sp?) task of getting out before crap really hits the fan when the IDPs return.

Thanks Bushie for giving Iraq a govenrnment more loyal to Iran than to us, despite nearly 5,000 GIs dead and 20,000 + wounded of the best trained and hard working people on Earth.

Sick of politics, and really in need of a rest day. But, no rest for the wicked and all. So then

Today's WOD

For Time:
Wash 5 loads of laundry
Watch 3 football games (go Packers)
Drink 4 beers and hell with it, maybe eat some nachos

On a side note, you guys want to talk about political movies, let's see what pile of poo Danny Glover puts out with the 2 mill Hugo Chavez gave him to make a couple movies. Post those up when their done so we can pick them apart.

Have a great rest day everyone

M 39 5ft 11in 170lbs

Nursing two sore knees, so just a version of the CFWU:

3 rounds of:

10 knees-to-elbows
15 supermans
10 pullups
15 dips

17:00

Wow !
Some of you guys write a lot...

Hi ABA

I took the time to respond to a previous post (#12) that was questioning what I said. I'm glad to see that you are familiar with the JWT and its origins. However, please refrain from name calling and one-line remarks, as this is no way to have a discussion.

Getting back to the topic of the day. Lately, Hollywood movies portray the political side of wars, with limitted and ever more graphic combat scenes. These same battle scenes are usually seen in commercials for the movie, suggesting that battle scenes appeal to/capture a wider audience than one sided political jargon. The movies also cost more to see than Youtube clips. That said, it's hard to tell if the popularity of the real war videos is a result of a growing support of the US soldier or a growing dislike of the "fancy little makeup wearing, set decorating, designer jeans donning, cologne spritzing, arugula salad crunching, tap dance extravaganza producing" Lefty who thinks he knows all but really doesn't. Maybe it's both. Or maybe it's something else, like boredom, or the possibility to see a loved one, or even some other reason that makes people click on the 10 minute military videos.

The point is it's not enough to be able to tell a shift in the political mindset of a nation. At least the Wall Street Journal points this out by printing the article in the Opinion section. When similar stuff happens in science (supporting an argument with inconclusive evidence), dangerous consequences follow, such as the USDA Food Pyramid.

Spiderchick - Did I give the impression I work in Hollywood? Sorry if that's the case. I'm an active duty Marine with 3 OIF deployments (including more hours than I can count outside the wire). Apparently I'm not such an "intelligent poster". ;-) Thanks for excluding me though.

SheepDawg007-
Nah. You are noble & get my respect. You deserve it. 3 years there. You consider the cause & effect of invading Iraq, and recognize the seemy underbelly of US policy & the failings of Iraqi politics.
And, you persist. You keep faith with your comrades. You do your duty & do what you can.
Thank you.

Mornin'. As is my custom, no "musings" on a Sunday Rest Day. Coach chooses the topic for discussion on Rest Day and it would be impolite of me to ignore his choice and talk about other stuff. Might get a 5K row in watching the Browns game if my "Honey Do" list isn't too long.

I am a non-vet, son and godson of vets, close friend of several active duty and reserve personnel. There was a Rest Day very early this year in which Apolloswabbie asked essentially "what would you do today?" He tacitly acknowledged that there is controversy regarding the decision to go to Iraq but quite properly IMO relegated that discussion to historians. We are in Iraq at this time. What are we to do? The discussion was very different from what we have had on pretty much any subsequent Rest Day because it focused on present day issues and the consequences that will fall out from present day decisions.

It occurs to me that the war footage on Youtube and other video sites (please note the spelling of s i t e s) is the ultimate "embedded reporter" in this war. Does anyone doubt that the physically embedded reporters for the three networks, CNN, and FOX as well as the myriad of newspapers added editorial "content" to their reportage? Indeed, we must acknowledge that war correspondents in prior wars (Hemingway included)and Hollywood spun events back then as well; they just spun them more often in the same direction as the generals and CIC. The raw footage we see (bias present through the direction of the camera chosen and little else) allows us to form a more personal first opinion or position, one that can then be leavened afterwards if we so choose by the slant, spin, or opinion of others, Hollywood included. Unlike previous wars and conflicts we behind the lines have more raw data with which to answer the question "what do we do now?", and we will also have more and better raw, unfiltered information to look back much later in order to evaluate the question "what should/could we have done then?"

I think it may be as simple as that.

The article makes little sense.

Some people simply like to watch action footage. Ideology doesn't have much to do with it. But, as has already been pointed out, the YouTube videos have relatively small audiences. There is no evidence they have influenced public opinion....much less that they reflect and unfulfilled yearning for seeing the good guys win.

"Redacted" and "Lions For Lambs" both failed at the box office for the best possible reason: they were bad films.

My Mini Reviews:

* Lions for Lambs" - the script reads like the second prize winner in a freshman one act play contest. Cardboard characters stand around a lot and make endless speeches at each other about moral dilemmas.
Much of the dialog seems lifted from left wing websites and publications.

* "Redacted" - stylistically interesting, but another dud. The conceit is that the film was assembled from "found footage" -- including security cameras, TV and documentary reports, a video journal from one of the Marines involved, and video blogs. (The send up of a pretentious French documentary film is hilarious.) But where does all this technique get us? Not very far. The film is pretty much like any other platoon
movie ever made.Cliches abound. Characters are stereotypical.

All that said, it's hard to argue with the proposition most Hollywood types have little military knowledge.
In "Redacted", the characters are supposed to be Marines, but one of them has an army ID card. I also wonder if the uniform and rank stuff was correct. The film is supposed to be about the truth, but two of the final still shots were staged. (They come at the end of a montage that is introduced as real photos of real bodies.) I confronted one of the producers about this at a screening -- but she couldn't grasp what I was talking about.

The producer also revealed that the filmmaker researched the film entirely on the Internet. Aha! It shows.

Sam Goldwyn is reputed to have said : "If you want to send a message, use Western Union." Apocryphal or not, there is still much truth in that maxim. Movies have to be rooted in realistic and believable characters -- not walking, talking message delivery machines. Otherwise, audiences will be smart enough to stay away.

Sorry to break up this very subdued debate ;)but I have a question about medicine balls. Is there a big difference between real leather medicine balls and synthetic? Do the synthetic ones break down quickly? If so, does anyone know of a good website to get medicine balls for a decent price (I already checked Dynamax)? Just asking before I spend over $100 on a ball.

thanks

VAS #19 -- Nice book. So full of subjective judgments and conditional statements. Your negative opinion of the war reads loud and clear. Too bad you completely dodged the issue in my original post.

Who ARE the good guys, anyway? I don't think you know. You reveal your ambivalence when you say "Nor am I confused as to who the good guys are, as that is open to anyone's interpretation."

What's YOUR interpretation? Can you answer?

#41 - I like this version of the body fat calculator. I wish that the military used it. They still use the neck and waist measurement. According to their charts, I am about 26 percent body fat.

Now, using their methods, I was 27% body fat at 267 lbs. I know weigh 315 lbs with nearly the same measurements. That only goes to prove that my body fat percentage should be lower.

That being said, the Zone body fat calculator showed by body fat to be ~20% (wrist size of 10.5 to 11 inches). The calculator also did not go above 300 lbs.

For today's article, I do not like Hollywood right now. Many of the movies that they turn out are, in one word, crap (Chalk River Activated Particulate). I think that they are not doing anything but try to make a dollar. Even Robert Redford. He may have good intentions. Yet, the movie is nothing more than today's headlines being put into a movie in a biased manner.

I like the YouTube videos. I like being able to really see what is going on. These people are willing to go out and shoot footage that was seen highly during the Vietnam War.

Both sides put forth their version of the truth. The YouTubers and the Hollywood types. There are snippets of truth from both sides that I make for my own personal views on the war.

My sister-in-law is part of the National Guard and is seeing her second tour. The "tours" have been increased from 12 to fifteen months. Really, this is more like 15 months to 18 months for the increase. This is just what my family has seen as far as her activity in Iraq. My family does not like this blatant abuse of power from the DoD. We want her home. Hopefully, the next time I see her she will still be a whole person on the outside. I hope that she will be nearly the same on the inside. By the time she gets home, the next election will be over. I hope that her vote gets counted.

I could go on and on. I just hope everyone has a good rest day. I am off to do some chores for my grandmother (like a good grandson should) and then do a light workout.

Pray, or don't pray, for the safe return of our loved ones and for some sanity in this world so that the feelings of good will are spread throughout mankind.

Stuart

It's been almost 3 years since I got back from Iraq, and every once in a while I still find it's in my system too. Most of the time I just let it go, since almost no one with an opinion about the war is going to change it at this point.

VAS, SheepDawg007: you're both much more eloquent than I could ever be in your opposition to the war in Iraq.

I went over there not really certain what I believed about the war, but 2 tours and several dead friends later I can say that we are accomplishing very little except to create a future generation of people who will hate the US long after we've left.

The reason we were given for going to war with Iraq was to rid it of all it's WMDs. Maybe they had them, maybe not. However, two days after my buddy was killed by an IED, I read an article about President Bush inviting several reporters into his office. He crawled around and joked about not being able to find WMDs under his desk.

#45 Sheepdawg,

I'm not a Neocon, but I've consistently argued for the continuance of strong efforts in support of victory in Iraq, our setbacks notwithstanding, so I wanted to take a moment to address your post.

First off, my profound thanks for your service. You have clearly earned the right to complain, both through actual efforts in the battles, and through firsthand knowledge of our screwups.

I could be wrong, but it seems to me what I am hearing between the lines is that you are tired. Not tired in a moral sense, not tired as in not doing your duty to the upmost, but tired as in you just spent 3 years climbing a mountain, only to discover it was the wrong mountain. You did what you were told, you followed the script given, but after all that sacrifice factors beyond your control--but not beyond control by others--caused much of your time and energy to be, if not wasted, directed in a way that did not appear to lead directly to victory.

The phrase "truth heals, in the right dosage" popped into my head a while back, and I can think of no more obvious use of that aphorism than in the military.

I will be blunt: you seem bitter. In my view, there is no better cure for bitterness, than more bitterness. Saccarhine platitudes fall short, for good reason.

Here, then, is what I view as the bitter truth. This is strong dosage: many of the deaths we incur, much of the money we spend, and many of the sacrifices our soldiers make of their time and liberty, are wasted. They are squandered by well meaning, but mistaken people, who in some cases ought to know better and fail because of a lack of guts or intelligence. Sometimes we can't know better. Sometimes the situation is inherently ambiguous, and decisions are made by competent people with courage and intelligence, which are wrong.

We have made many mistakes. With respect to Bremer, we have to realize the extent to which everyone associated with Hussein was demonized in the lead-up to the war, and how much our cheerleading led us to believe it would be Paris 1944 (or 1945, whichever it was). This obviously didn't happen. We then failed to understand the fundamental importance of tribal loyalties, especially with respect to the Sunnis. We failed to implement an aggressive information campaign, and to this date the Iranians have felt little to no backlash from their repeated and obvious efforts to support the killing of Americans and Sunni Iraqis.

With so much on the line, with so many human lives invested in this conflict--both literal lives, and the sacrifice of the comforts of being home with those you love--one would hope we could draw a freaking straight line. That we could gather and use data well enough so that all efforts would lead transparently to the pacification of the nation, and eventual growth into a nation fit to be a model for the rest of the Middle East.

But the situation is much too chaotic, and growth is always only approximate, and for every advance there seems to be a setback.

Yet, on balance, we appear to be making progress. Iraq is not the first nation with large numbers of refugees, and although the solutions may not be obvious now, they can be hammered out over time.

There has never been a strong democracy in an Arab nation, and if we can help the Iraqis build one, that would be a beautiful thing. If the current government is more closely allied to Iran than America, that need not remain that way forever. He will not be in power forever. It would be much better if he were more interested in the interests of the whole of his nation--this is a trait of the sort of great leader that would greatly assist us. Regrettably, this is also the trait that currently tends to get budding George Washingtons assassinated.

With time, though, things will get gradually better. There does not appear to me to be any reason not to suppose the Iraqis will not increasingly want peace, and eventual access to much greater prosperity.

What we are doing is valuable, in my continuing view, and the alternatives to success remain all bad, worse than the status quo.

I think the flaws of the article have been well stated--basing American sentiment to the war by comparing box office sales to youtube hits (made worse by the fact that the author is comparing number of hits to "empty theaters" not really apples to apples in my opinion) seems a stretch.

However I did have a question. For those who advocate leaving the justification of the war and methods used to enter it to the realm of historians, if the historians ultimate decide that it was wrong/unjustified/whatever, wouldn't it be better to know that sooner rather than later?

I understand the idea that if a war is determined to be unjust (a BIG if, by the way--I make no judgments here) it does nothing to resolve that war already in progress. However, shouldn’t the determination be made as soon as possible to either justify the actions taken as just (and therefore can and should be repeated/modified in similar situations) or unjust (and should be recognized early and opposed)? Or is the argument just to seperate the discusion of the justification of the war from the discussion of what do with the war now? Thoughts?

i liked the comment about artists tending to be liberal and soldiers mostly conservative by nature - just my subjective perspective as an independent-thinking (music) artist who's spent the vast majority of my life around those of liberal persuasion - a huge proportion of the peopl I've known would sneer in total condescension and borderline hatred of the mentality of people who the youtube videos' patriotism and recognition of the value of the US military resonate with (sorry a trainwreck of a sentence) ... I have no admiration for those attitudes, in fact i think they reflect a pathetic state of society that takes for granted our way of life and has its head in the sand re the fact that the predator-prey nature of the world isn't going away; and a despicable lack of appreciation for those who defend them. Off topic, I do think our society is equally endangered by our petroleum based lifestyle and i believe crossfit is in a great position to save our society by implementing a paleo lifestyle and building a society of athlete-warrior-scientist-innovators who will lead the way into a sustainable food and energy infrastructure.

F/25/104

bit behind... Made up lynne today

80# bench

5/11
4/5
4/6
4/7
3/7

bench was poor but i added 5 to it from last time. Happy with pullups chalk would have helped numbers though

I HAVE MISSED MY WODS SINCE LAST TUESDAY SO I DID A 10K IN 61:27 MY BEST TIME!AND THEN DID
3X25 WALL BALL SHOTS (MY LEGS WOULD NOT DO MORE)
THEN DID LATERAL CURLS 3X15 45LBS.50 YR YOUNG FEMALE.

My personal limited experience with POSE has led to the first pain free and zero swelling running since my ACL surgery in 2000. And thats just from watching a video and reading a few articles. Also, it was a leap of faith to buy a shoe that is minimal cushion underneath but now i swear by it.

Ben Stein in today's Times, Business Section: " I will say it until the day I die: the military family is the backbone of America. And if it means that I am too upset about financial fraud, I would just like to say that I often cannot sleep at night seething that men and women are giving their lives for us in faraway places while at home their country is being plundered by men in $3,000 suits who get multimillion severances when they are caught."

Proportionality is a bad argument. If you try to stab me, I'll shoot you in the goddamned face.

#45, SheepDawg,

Thanks, man. You said it all. I can't wait to get out of this place.

Mission Accomplished, George.

It seems to me that a lot of those in support of the war and the "good guys" aren't separating their support for our soldiers and their patriotism from the cold hard facts surrounding the issue.

The chance of the Iraqi people uniting and forming a stable democracy is slim to none. This is because they do not identify themselves as Iraqi first. They identify themselves by tribe and religion first. The fact is that Iraq should never have been a country in the first place. Western Powers irresponsibly created it in 1919 to split up the Ottoman empire. The non-existence of Kurdistan exemplifies this and shows just how broken the middle east is. Out policy makers are not stupid. Neither are the intelligence services who advise them.

We live in a democratic society where policies need to be sold to people in order to gain support. Truthfully, the claim that we're in Iraq to spread democracy is little more than a marketing ploy. We're in Iraq so that we can maintain control of it's oil industry and because of its geopolitical value to us in opposing Iran. I consider these to be legitimate, though debatable reasons to be there. However, if you're going to argue in support of the war and talk about the noble cause that we serve there, argue in favor of the real reasons. The ideological ones are far from legitimate.

Disclaimer: this in no way is meant to bash our troops. Their service is honorable and demands respect regardless of what our governments intentions are.

#56 Stuart,

Interesting. I used an electronic body fat gauge at work and it says that I'm about 15-17% body fat. That web calculator says 16% (I changed my waist and wrist to 33 and 6). So it seems to agree with the electronic measurement. I'm still a little skeptical of both though. I would like to get a skin fold test to get a more accurate measurement.

What I'm cocerned about is the amount of food that calculator prescribed for me. I'm a male, 6', 165 lbs, and I have been maintaining my weight on a diet of ~3000 calories per day (rough estimate). I'm concerned that this calculator is not giving me enough food. 18 blocks per day comes out to 126 grams of protein, 162 grams of carbs, and 27 grams of fat. There are 4 calories in each gram of protein and carbs. There are 9 calories in each gram of fat. If you add all those up, it comes to a total of 1395 calories per day. If I've been maintaining my weight on a diet of 3000 calories per day, I won't be getting anywhere near enough calories with this plan.

If I put "Elite Athlete" into the calculator then it gives me 20 blocks per day which only comes to 1550 calories. Still not close to what I need. So my question is, how many zone blocks should I be eating per day to support my CrossFit exercise program and gain muscle?

tauger # 67 -- So do you think our troops are the "good guys" or not?

I can't believe how much ink people will spill to dodge this question.

# 58 (barry cooper)-

First, thanks for your well thought and reasoned response.

Am I I bitter after three years over here?

Hell Yes I'm bitter. I'm bitter at the fact we are handing over to Iraq a government which is nearly married to the Iranian regime. Despite all the strategic mistakes made by Bremer and the hell which followed those mistakes, in the end Iraq is going to be ruled by a Shia dominated government that is in bed with Iran?

What do you mean Sheepdawwg007? History: In the 80's as Uncle Saddam (supported by guess who, oops. the U.S), was reeking havoc and targeting Shia and Iran (that lil war from 1980-1988).

Iraqi POWs that were captured by Iran agreed to form an Iraqi military division under Iranian control. That diivsion is: Badr Corps.

Fast forward 2003: Badr Corps and its political wing (ISCI, Iraqi Supreme Council in Iraq) come out of Iran and forumulated a political party, won seats in 2004 and 2005, and are now the most dominant Shia party in Iraq. What Shia leader just met with Pres Bush in early Dec 2007? Oh, ISCI Chairman himself, Abd al Aziz al Hakim.

Guess who good ol AAAH defended in Nov about suicide attacks in Baghdad that Coalition Forces (us) accused of fomenting, Iran! AAAH and gang lived in Iran for 25 years waiting for their chance to undo Saddam and bring in Shia jurisprudence (Shia theocracy, also see Iran) into power.

The neocons and especially their cousins in the right wing seriously need to get with the program fast. When we withdraw, and we will, the power vaccum will be sucked by ISCI (read above aka Iran). So we invaded Iraq to give power back to ISCI whose stated goals are that similar to Iran?

So am I bitter? God Yes.

Unlike the 20-40 somethings (Yes, 18-40 years is max age for no prior-service persons to enlist) neocons and their right wing cousins, I continously stay here to see this through. Regardless of the righteousness, regardless of the morality, regardless of the mistakes, I will not be a Bush, Rumsfield, Limbaugh type ChickenHawk and not serve. I oppose this conflict, but my personal views will not be deomonstarted at a protest, because my skills and what I'm good at are most needed right whee Iam. So when I hear and notice the fallacy of right wing arguments about the justness of this war, I can only laugh, cry, and speak what neo-cons and right wing cousins are always most afraid of: The Truth.

I just pray every night we are not seriously going to hand over this country to ISCI and Iran.

Bottom line (but the right wing and neo-cons just dont get this); Might does not make Right!

So Barry, as we say in the military, here is my BLUF (bottom line up front. In this post, its at the end, my bad): There will be no victory in Iraq. In 25 years there will be no statues or memorials erected by the Iraqi people to honor the sacrfice of our soldiers, sailors, Marines, and airmen. It just won't happen.

If your definition of victory is this: reducing troops to a manageable level to persuade Iran not to formally send their own troops and then to allow Iraqis to fight it out themselves in a low intensity civil war for years to come, then your right on. That will be victory. There are no good alternatives, and they are all entirely consequences of neo-cons and right wingers who completely discarded historical facts, culture, vision, clarity, realism, and the capacity and capability of our Armed Forces.

That being said, huge fan of General Patreus and Secretary Gates. Two Men of Honor we needed in their current positions back in 2003. Great men who may be too late.

#67 tauger--

Preventing dangerous, terroristist factions from ruling Iraq by standing up a legitimate democratic government is a noble, albeit challenging objective. Who says we went into Iraq to simply "spread democracy"? Certainly not the Pres or Congress. We went in to 1. Prevent possible use of WMD by terrorists, 2. Disallow the region to become a certain hotbed for terrorist regimes, and 3. Remove a vicious totalitarian from power (which we should have done the first time). That's what we do. We've done it throughout our nations history. We help those that need and deserve help. And we use our superpower status to bring peace and stability in an increasingly volatile world. God help us if the United States ever stops aggressively defending the cause of freedom around the world.

‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’ (Edmund Burke)

If we have to struggle for the next 50 yrs to establish Iraq, then isn't it worth it to achieve these objectives? It would be fantastic and right if we could recoup some of the costs from this war from the oil. Why are we afraid to admit that we need the oil revenues to continue our cause and guarantee Iraq's financial independence? But to assume we went in to make money just doesn't hold water. We will NOT make money from this war and our policy makers are not stupid, as you admit. They new at the outset that this would cost us dearly.

To stray a bit OT due to doing 85 burpee/pullups and 7x3 Snatches on what would under any level of sanity been a day off might be excusable...

Do any of you have a representative in government at the congressional level or above that has a child in harms way in Iraq?

There are some really good thoughts posted here today. Definitely, much sincerity of feeling. I'm happy that for the most part, this discussion has steered away from left/right slants. It's so much easier to take opinions seriously this way.

The Just War Theory talk is interesting. I think that there are arguments to both support and contradict each point that VAS made in the discussion based on different perspectives. I'm curious how many wars in history could be proven categorically to have met the criteria. I believe very few, if any. In an imperfect world, the concept of an absolutely just war is pretty much an abstraction. I believe there are always going to be a few details that cast a shadow, however slight, on even the most noble of wars. At times, leaders simply don't have the luxury to wait the amount of time it would take to judge whether a conflict meets all of the criteria. Had European leaders acted more swiftly in the last century against Hitler, would WWII have been avoided. Who knows? If they had, would there have been discussion about whether pre-emption was justified? Again, who knows?

I really don't think anyone can completely judge a historical event as complex as the Iraq war/conflict without the passage of time. It would be impossible to have enough information to make an acceptable judgement. There are too many factors that are ongoing. I think that there were factors that justified action. There were also factors that contradicted action. At some point, a decision needed to be made, and it was. I'm glad I wasn't the one who had to make the decision. I appreciate all of those who are working to implement the decision with service in the military. I take your opinions of the situation more seriously than most.

As far as the discussion that there are too many different ethnic groups who don't consider themselves to be Iraqi primarily, that is a major complication. However, there are so many nations in the world where this is the case. Even in the U.S., there are a fairly large number of citizens who identify themselves by ethnic background first, then American, second. (I am not isolating any of them - there are more than one.) This scenario only works in a true democracy or a dictatorship. Transitioning from dictatorship to democracy will take a shift of paradigm and time. Many former Soviet republics have been struggling to accomplish this feat for well over 15 years! Some of them have splintered. Let's hope Iraq makes it to full democracy.

Row 5K (damper 4/simulate on water)

23:17 PR

Not very good but getting better.

VAS, nice rant. To bad your 'facts' are not facts. Just War Theory is just that. theory. The world is governed by the rules of the jungle, we are governed by our Constitution and elected officials. Neither of which is subject to a theory.

1. Just Cause. You make the case for no connection to terrorism and Iraq. This is false. There was a connection. Perhaps you meant 9/11 and Iraq. Part of your arguement is that you do not remember the UN resolutions and Iraq's failure to comply with cease fire agreements.

Just Cause was met.

2. Competent Authority. You make an attempt to lend credibility to those not credible by authority, competency, nor statute. The UN security council, the UN and NATO. The only competent authorities that determine or actions rest within our elected government. Polls showed Americans were overwhelmingly in Favor of going into Iraq.

Also, your comments about Nations (not private groups) present a particular problem for you continuinQaedag this discourse based on your own criteria. What is Al-Qaeda? What is the Taliban? What is any insurgency? If they are not Nations then did we or are we actually at war then?? Perhaps Just War Theory doesn't have an updated hypothesis because we are to soon into this.

Competent Authority met.

3. Right Intentions. Uphold cease fire agreement and Saddam's regime from using and possessing WMDs. All of the worlds' advanced nations intelligent services agreed that they had WMDs. That is a rather large conspiracy.

Right Intentions met.

4. Last resort. Agree this is a moving target. Hence, why I think this theory is BS. Even if it is the last resort, that is too late. Since it is a moving target and Saddam could not account for his numbers, kicked out inspectors, and was acting belligerent, we are going to give this a

Last Resort met.

5.Probabilty of success. I call BS on this. Otherwise it was wrong for Saddam to put a fight at all. Also, why would a nation just not fight if it was 'probable' that it would lose. That is stupid in every way it is looked at.

Possibily of success met. duh.

6. Proportionality. You are either uneducated in applying logic or on medication with your thought process here. Of course there is a larger insurgency now than before the war. This is an unknown at this point. With Libya giving up its WMDs. Iran supposedly giving up its Nukes in 2003, after we went into Iraq. I would say that you are flat wrong here as well. Also, with other advanced nations getting on board with own internal intelligence development, I call this a net gain by far.

Proportionality met.

As per your follow on 2 that must be met during the course of war.

met and met.

I would ask you to answer, when it was that the war with Iraq ended? Are we at war now?

Unscrew your interpretation from reality.

If your theory is to be held in regard then you need to argue your facts better by bringing some to the table and not conjecture.

Stuart, great post.

Spiderchick is right on. And the Hollywood Left goes out of their way to demonize the military.

Sheepdawg, it's very easy to whip out the crystal ball, stick it in reverse, and say we should've zagged when we zigged. But the assumption that that alternate action wouldn't have had it own resulting set of problems is naive at best.

Tho phrases come to mind:
2 steps forward, 1 step back
If you want to make an omlette, you have to break a few eggs.

We've done more with less and have suffered few casualties comparatively. We have demonstrated power, restraint, and goodwill. We removed a brutal dictator. Locals have rejected Al Qaeda & their extremism. Iran's dominance is not a forgone conclusion. That opposes the nature of tribalism. You seem certain there will be no victory. I wonder what General Patreaus would say?

heres my deads
bw198lbs. 6ft. tall 24yrs
495x3x3
505x3x2

Sheepdawg07, let's look into your rant as well.

To dismiss an entire military is actually a long standing practice. especially, if it is not able to function. If it was left in place, the same issues would have surfaced accept with these familiar leadership structures in place. You may take issue with the method, but the reason is sound. If everything ran a-muck the same people would be griping that it is because Brehmer was to lazy to dismantle the military or because the Neo-Cons and their military-industrial complex wanted to grow using Saddam's military resources.

Dismissing the Ba'ath party leadership was sound as well. The on going resource issues stem from the inability for many of the Iraqi people to not plunder resources because they had been tit fed for so long. More than enough power is being generated and if it was not being syphoned off by squatters and people looking out only for their own interests this issue would have solved itself. You can't help everyone when so many will only help themselves.

Overall I see why you are bitter, but I say it is misplaced. You completely excuse those who are making the problems or at least fail to mention them, in either why violence is/was rampant in areas and why services have been poor.

You are right, however, there will be hell to pay when people as Iraqis come home. That is the way it works when you will not stand up for what is yours. I have little to no sympathy though. Responsibility is a two way street. If they did not want to be responsible for protecting their homes and neighborhoods, the are going to be hard pressed to find anyone else who is going to to their expectations.

Your on-going rants against Neo-Cons reeks of conspircay theory. I am waiting for the 9/11 was an inside job card to be thrown as to create justification for the whole thing. The neo-cons did not vote to go into Iraq. The Neo-cons did not write the British, French, Russian, German, and Israeli intelligence reports. The Neo-Cons pay Saddam to fire at our planes during the years of the cease fire.

Even further, your tone about a sitting President and our CInC on a public forum reeks of questionable intentions by way of judgement and action. While I am glad and sure that you will continue to do your job, I sincerely question if you should continue at this point. I am sure this comment will not go over well, but it really is something to think about and if you feel the need to talk as you do about our leadership then your skin will be thick enough for my little critique. No doubt, your attitude is wearing on you physically as well. Stay safe warrior.

#33 The people protesting funerals were fundamentalist Christians who think the Iraq war deaths are god punishing the US tolerance of gays. Not anti-war protests. (I agree that would be inappropriate)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/29/AR2006012900927.html

#69 Captainvictory-- Yes our troops are good guys. They are heroes for the selfless service. However, our cause is not a noble one in Iraq.

#71 Wilson-- The Idea that the US uses its power to bring peace and stability to the world is far from the truth. To say that "this is what we do and have done throughout our nation's history" is false. With WWI and WWII being exceptions, I can't think of many credible examples.

Countless CIA coups throughout the 1950's and 60's were used to place oppressive right-wing governments in place of left-wing ones. The good of the people was of no concern, only that it was our oppressive government in place, not the USSR's. The 1953 coup in Iran is a perfect example, this was done not even to curb the spread of communism, but to secure a steady flow of oil to Western Powers and Israel. We installed the Shah and helped to train his brutal secret police, the Savak.

Korea and Vietnam? In Korea, our initial leader placed in charge, Sigmun Rhee, was far from a saint. With regards to Vietnem, we now have a wonderful relationship with the Vietnamese government that we spent so many lives fighting to put down for the geopolitical value of the country.

Today, we certainly are not practicing a policy of triumphing over evil or bringing peace and stability to the world. We support a near medieval monarchy in Saudi Arabia, and support Musharaff in Pakistan.

We're not in Iraq to fight terrorism, our own intelligence service has said that our occupation of their land is the root of the entire terrorist problem. We didn't remove Saddam because he was an evil dictator, we supported him in the Iran-Iraq War. Their oil industry isn't a way to "recoup" some of the costs of liberating the Iraqi people, it's the only reason we're there as our military presence does not make us safer and other aspects of our foreign policy contradict the idea that we prioritize the promotion of peace and prosperity.

Our country is stuck in a rut where those who defend a dishonest and neo-conservative foreign policy are labeled as unpatriotic and unsupportive of our troops. Those who support our foreign policy justify it by painting a pretty face on it and saying that it's carried out for out national defense. I think debate about Iraq is great and that there are credible arguments to be made for and against it. However, these should be carried out with facts and logic. One can defend our presence there, but to say we're promoting peace and stability, or fighting terrorism as a justification is simply false.

Our troops in the field ARE the good guys (and women). Pay grades of General and above including most politicians I really wonder about. Speaking from experience. Not much has changed in the last 35 years...

Captainvictory #69- our troops are good guys. They are heroes for their selfless service. However, we're in Iraq for no heroic reasons. We're there because it serves our country's economic and geopolitical interest.

Wilson #67- I had a longer response to but it got caught in the spam filter :-/. Look at all of our foreign interventions since WWII, hardly any of them have actually promoted freedom, peace, and stability. They've promoted our economic interest and geopolitical interest. Currently, we don't follow a noble foreign policy either. Our support for Musharaff and Saudi Arabia exemplify this.

I think there are credible arguments for defending Iraq. But to say that it's to fight terrorism and liberate the Iraqi people is false. Our presence there generates far more terrorists than we eliminate (it's not a military challenge, but a political one), and we supported Saddam Hussein in the past. It can be defended, but you can't defend it and play the freedom and defense card, it doesn't add up.

Did a few 100lb olympic barbell single arm snatches. Got a 100lb barbell turkish get down/get up on the right but needed a little more rest+ focus to nail the left arm TGU.

Pr for tgu though!

left similar post for yesterday ... have tightness and numbness over my right patella after deadlifts yesterday. Did I over do it?

Regardless of right or wrong we can't afford this war, recognize a bad investment and cut our losses

27f/74"/173 lbs

Been off for a few days with travelling, so I followed the CrossFitHEL (Portland) WOD.

As many rounds as possible in 20 minutes of:
1/4 BW DB Deadlifts - 20
1/4 BW DB F. Squats - 20
1/4 BW DB Push Presses - 20
400m Farmers Carry (1/4 BW DB)
plus one burpee for each time I set down the weights.

I did 3 rounds plus 3 burpees. Good workout!

Sheepdawg07:

Thank you for your service. However, you have mentioned "neocon and right wing" too many times to give any validity to any of your points. To say it clearly you have an agenda and it is not in winning the war. I served in the Marines from 88 to 92 and I'm a Gulf War vet. It is disheartening for me to hear men and women who say they are serving bitching down about their assignment. The military I know knows their mission and executes it. They don't waste time bitching to the outside unless of course they aren't actually on the indside.

#86 truth-hurts-don't-it: Grow up.

10000m row

40:26 - PR by 30 seconds

Tried first 7500m without securing feet. Not bad, but back started to hurt (related???). Finished quite strong.

AL

America cares not to be truly involved in what is at stake. IF you do not watch the news or read the paper you wouldn’t even realize that America is at war. As long as nothing happens on US soil there is no problem. Iraq is part of GWOT.
I just returned form a year of dealing with the men who are waging the war against the US troops. They are not fighting us because we are on Arab lands, or because they have some great political ambition. They want to create an Islamic caliphate in order to spread Islam. It is a platform of some radical crazy’s that believe this can happen. They are also doing a bang up job of kicking our butts in the arena of public affairs (Abu Ghraib, Diwanaya etc.) These people are radical in their thinking. Some are just as disillusioned as many Americans are. Since the only industry that is paying in Iraq is war that is their means to their end. Is this war religious? Well only in the way the insurgents and terrorists are recruiting. Kind of the same recruiting techniques the street gangs use here, but with the added bonus of using religion to whip the young, unemployed and war torn youth into a frenzy. Is the war about oil? OF course it is. Just not the free flowing oil that a conquering nation would reap. Just to the west of Iraq would be a lovely country that is a leading oil provider, and yet imports over $4 billion in refined oil. They would love (as well as many Americans) for the US to leave Iraq. This would help them to ensure they get cheap or even free oil. Seems we aren't the only ones looking out for the future or well being of our nation. ONLY, I would trust the US govt.(with all of its shortcomings) over some radical hate mongering govt. We are far from a perfect nation, but we are a nation that is idealistic. Those ideals have led to freedom of slaves, women suffrage, religious freedom and freedom of speech just to name a few ideals that this country is lucky enough to have over many countries in this world. Is this war just? If you believe in democracy, freedom and the right to be treated fairly, then yes this war is just. If you want to create some sort of manifesto of what a just war is... do so at your own peril. There happen to be things on this earth that happen to be worth fighting for. Freedom happens to one of them. Even if it happens to be for someone else (other than illegal immigrants). To still hear that this war is illegal is such a travesty of reality. There was wrong intelligence, but to say the war is illegal would put someone square in the camp that the butcher of Baghdad should still be the leader.(At least he kept everyone from warring) Kind of the way an abusive husband controls his wife.

As far Hollywood movies failing... Are they? They have hit their target audience and they will become living testaments to this period in history. The same way Oliver Stones’ JFK is accepted by this generation as fact. Hollywood is full of altruistic folks that live in a fantasy world. The only reason they are such a factor anymore is because we allow them to be. The thing is the more people say that the movie is a failure the more publicity it will get and of course once it hits DVD people will pay less money to watch crap. This also is part of the reason why You Tube is such a big hit. Charge someone $8 to watch and I doubt the hits would be as high.

no rest for the addicted....

25/f/5'2/130# (! - whoa, i think mom's cookies are makin themselves known on the scale.)

5 rounds for time of:
400m run
15 x hspu
15 x pull-ups (luv teh butterfly kip!)
time = 18:21

for time:
10 x box jump @ 30" box
20 x OHS @ 50#
20 x box jump @ 24" box
30 x thruster @ 50#
30 x box jump @ 20" box
40 x squat w/2x12# dbs
40 x box jump @ 18" box w/2x12# dbs
time = 10:30

"Annie"
time = ?
just went at it w/o either lookin at the clock or starting the stopwatch. sit-ups all unanchored. tried to get as many unbroken sets of the double-unders as i could. the most i got wuz about 30 in a row. needless to say, by this time i wuz running a bit on empty.

after flopping for a couple mins post Annie on the floor mat, i taught a couple guys next to me that looked a little less than enthusiastic about their various forms of sit-ups/crunches the "hollow rock." they tried really hard, but neither of them could do it. the impression i got when i left them: they both have established for themselves a new ab strength goal to work towards. i heart sharing the kool-aid!

truth-hurts-don't-it: I saw The Ground Truth and it is fundamentally flawed from start to finish. I never saw Sir No Sir but I can only imagine.

I don't know how to respond to your "you might have achieved something" response other than I just tucked in 4 wonderful achievements and I am thankful on how my military treated me.

I'm 38 now and I don't think like I thought when I was 22. I know my leaders then were 25 and 29 and I appreciate the way they led me which allowed me to lead my men in the best way I thought then. To compare how I would lead today compared to how I would lead then is flawed. To ask a WW II vet if losing 75 percent of his men on an island landing was worth it he would probably say no. To ask a Captain in the Marines if losing a single Marine is worth it he would respond "no".

Your thinking is flawed and so is your tactics on wording it the way you want.

When I say "grow up" I don't care if you take it personally, I care that you don't represent a minority that has no idea what they are talking about other than that of a bias movie which has no back bone.

Thought on the POSE method:

I haven't seen the whole lecture but it seems to me that the instructor isn't necessarily trying to defy physics, more he's trying to get people to run with a different mindset that places their legs and feet in the most effiecient position for running. Obviously I'm not floating, and thier has to be push (ala Newtons Laws etc...) but If you think about how your running in the POSE method you might only push as much as needed and not more. Look, I'm a big kid at 250lbs and for the longest time I ran with heavy, slow legs, and a few years back a real runner looked at how I was running and made a few little suggestions not unlike those being suggested in POSE. I used to put my leg far out in front of my body, stopping my momentum (hard on knees) and I would push slow and drag from behind. My torso had alot of vertical motion from trying to push too much, instead of "thinking" about falling forward as a way of controlling my body and turning out horizontal motion. I'm still not very good at running but I run quite a bit lighter and faster than before.

Although, like I said before, I haven't seen the whole lecture and the POSE people might actually need a physics lesson.

forgot my usual:

breakfast (before all other wods):
run 45 mins = 6.1 miles

'truth-hurts-dont-it'

You sound like a troll, and there's a difference between being brainwashed and having a different opinion. There's been some generally good thought provoking conversation today, from both sides of the issue.

I probably wouldn't respond to your nonsense at all except that you seem to be hijacking a pretty interesting conversation I've been trying to absorb. So far you haven't provided any real content, just accusations and disrespect. And citing obscure internet movies as proof of your opinion is weak to say the least. Try it at KOS, I think you'll get the responses you're looking for. Leave the conversation to the adults, unless you have something tangible to contribute (i.e., grow up).

I've read the term "illeagal war" thrown around a lot. Can someone please explain?

Re: #95

Ahh, there it is. You know, the nut-job trolls used to be easier to spot in here because the community was so much smaller; now they can hide a bit, but ultimately they sort themselves out. I like this from #95 - "...why would I expect anything different from you or the other brainwashed military zombies in here? Typical." Ding-ding-ding, we have a winner.

I'll take Trolls for a 1000, Alex.

Let me see - hiding behind a fake email address, links to wacko sites, and name-calling about the military. Yup, that about covers all of them. I wonder if Lynne will find this IP address and it will turn out to be from a previously banned troll.

Hey, kid, RTC is right - grow up. If you have something substantive or can out-debate we "brainwashed military zombies" then please, let's hear it. So far, you're way short in that department. Somebody clearly has "issues" with the military - were you rejected by a recruiter or did some Marine in his Blues take your girlfriend?

truth-hurts-dont-it

In response to your illegal war assertion, alls you need to do is look to the War Powers Act. The president can use military force without congressional declaration of war for 60 days, then congress would need to approve the action. And if you look, many democrats, namely Hilary and Barrack supported the war until it was time to be re-elected. But I'm sure that didn't have anything to do with their change of hearts.

You seem to be a troll because your writing style seems more aimed at agitating and insulting people than proving any point. I don’t really care which side you argue if you have a point that you can support.

Identifying documentaries that agree with your position is not the same as providing actual information. You'll notice many people have been discussing their experiences (direct or through reading) and used details to try and draw logical conclusions (that could subsequently be debated). You identified a documentary that few people have seen and used it as a platform to spout off about the war. No details. I assume the soldiers in those documentaries had evidence you felt was compelling. Put some of your favourite evidence up for scrutiny and you are making a contribution. You might even convince some people to watch them at a later date when they have time. Don’t hide behind the documentaries as if their content was gospel and throw insults at anyone who won’t just agree with your unsubstantiated comments. That isn’t tolerated from people arguing from either side of the political spectrum here.

The worst rebuke you received was to 'grow up' and was probably more constructive than any of your little barbs.

Comments in filter.

Truth Hurts - you have all the earmarks of a troll. (1) Obscure net links to make some not very well articulated point, (2) hide behind fake name email address, (3) insults and name-calling (with sub-category of military hater), (4) never before seen on here posting a workout result, (5) add nothing to the general tenor of this community's conversation. In other words, the very definition of a troll.

#98 - JPW - very few people can actually talk in terms of international law and provide some actual cites that would help to further illustrate when a war is considered "illegal" under international norms or "legal". You heard some "Just War Theory" up above, but usually it's just stated, ipse dixit, as if it's blatantly obvious what an illegal war is. My days in international law are rather fuzzy (it was 1998 or 99), but what I do recall is that it took a semester to even approach some rudimentary understanding.

3.5 hrs of BJJ today after doing the 5 rds of 400's, 21 SDHP, and thruster workout from a few days ago. My hammies and backside feel like I spent the night in prison. Man, I used to recover so much quicker when I was young.

Sheepdawg, you are right on the money. A lot of other misguided people on here, though. Just because the right wing says it doesn't make it right. It's a sad day when people back a side just because of political affiliation.

Sheepdawg,
I respect what you wrote.

To the naysayers,indeed "the truth hurts";can run from it but not hide,hence the frenzy to undermine a clearheaded "realpolitik" voice.

Re. Sheepdogs "rant"...interesting to read some posters attempt to 'kill the messanger' as they turn on one of their own.Plainly Iraq is not the only country involved in the war that is bitterly divided.
Re. that division....results from last US election indicate writing is on the wall for "pro war" folks.

Jay H.- you claim people here are misguided because of political affiliation. Since most of those very people are service members as well, are you accusing us of putting our political affiliations above our ability to see right and wrong? What is you political affiliation then?

Jamie- How Ironic you respect what he wrote, but do you respect who he says he is? Several more service people have presented you with with a different perspective, but you called us 'total losers' in a deleted post.

Who is using who?

Clarify your 'respect' talk, since most will not parse words like I do. You should clarify that service members who disagree with you are not held in a positive regard by way of your comment that was deleted.

Bill, your accusation of 'killing the messenger' is unfounded. Sheepdawg007 has valid points to be discussed, however his tone and conspiracy slinging in the face of facts is not something to be celebrated. I ask him to be accurate and mindful of who he says he is. I get the bitterness. However, your celebration of it is indicative of what you care about, finding credibility. When that runs out, you will throw him overboard as well. It is what we expect of you. If his argument went the other way you would have disdain for him and accuse him as you have me?

So I see one service member venting, the others refuting his facts, tone, and assumptions. He slings the insults to our leadership in a public forum and makes accusations about peoples' honor in the decisions they made. Yet amazingly, we are the misguided ones.

Thanks for the faith, fellow citizens.

Politics.

Bill, also if the writing is on the wall because the last election then it is in transparent paint. That was the weakest showing of the opposing party during the off year election of a 2nd Presidential term in over a century.

Perhaps the polling numbers of the Democrat controlled Congress dropping by 15 to 20 points to nearly single digits since their take-over and the Presidents rising lately should mix into that transparent paint as well or perhaps not.

Joey

post in the filter

99% of my views fall in with Libertarianism (in fact I'm unaware of any that don't) or classic liberal. I prefer not to simply state that I'm a libertarian then jump onto a libertarian bandwagon (there are many as it isn't one cohesive party) as that would limit my own ability to think for myself. I base my political beliefs simply on what I believe at my core to be right or wrong. I see a lot of the other officers around me who just follow the republican party line. Doing this sort of thing alleviates people from the hardest thing to do: thinking. There are still many other officers(as well as NCOs)that don't. So yes, those of us who don't do feel used by this administration. That is part of the reason officer retention is so bad right now.

I thought going into Iraq was wrong from the first time it was brought up in '02. I was very much behind the administration at the time, like many others. I listened to what they had to say and unlike most people, did my own research on the matter because it felt wrong to me. Even minimal research showed me things weren't adding up. The problem is most people just rallied behind the administration due to 9/11. I wanted to get behind it, but it didn't feel right. At the time I just hoped I was wrong. Later more and more facts were leaked, confirming my initial feelings on the matter, which just drove me further away from the cause.

Being that I'm good to my word, I'm went to Iraq when my time came, however, I will be leaving the Army upon return. I'll do my job that I took an oath to do, but I can no longer accept doing what I consider to be morally wrong, defiling my person. I've taken the time to look over everything in depth, and it just is not right in my opinion. If that makes me a terrible officer, a bad leader, or whatever, then I guess that's what I am.

Sheepdawg is not spouting conspiracy theory, it just doesn't match up with what you want to hear. That doesn't a conspiracy make.

I haven't seen the recent polling data, but chances are more likely that the democrat controlled congress approval rating is dropping because they aren't doing what the public wants them to do: end the war. That falls more on the republican half of congress' shoulders. The presidents approval rating would be rising because things are going better over here, which is all that matters to some people, it's good as long as it's going well. For me it's a moral dilemma of right or wrong for just being here. Obviously I'm glad it's going better, less of our guys are dying, but that doesn't make the whole situation more right.

Ok, I've written enough.

To #7 & #17
In Pose Running you move foreward through the use of gravity by falling. When your foot is on the ground you are in support which requires muscular effort. Once your body weight passes over the foot you PULL it off the ground as you move forward. If you are PUSHING OFF you are wasting energy to go UP instead of forward. The fastest runners have short time in suport and very little vertical travel.

As far as the first few yards in a sprint. You are not at 45 degrees unless in the blocks, which I doubt many CrossFitters need. Even so if someone holds you up off the ground at a 45 degree angle and lets go, I guarentee you will PULL your foot foreward as FAST as you can so you don't fall on your face. You have no power to push off with because your body weigth is way in front of the support. The only Push off you can do is with the front foot in the blocks and you are not even running yet, you are leaving the blocks.

Pose running can be used for all speeds of running. It's just a matter of how much coordination and heart rate you can maintain to control the speed you are falling at.

Jay H. - what you are as far as an officer is not for me to say without first hand experience with you. I know others similar to you that will leave as well. However, with a little talking I found much to be the service leadership and just being straight tired as the main reasons they are punching out. As a former USA O type myself, I get it. I switched to a service that has been effectively at war since '91, especially my MAJCOM, and as such does not knee-jerk as bad as the green machine.

Like I said, the neo-cons did not force the members of congress to vote a certain way, nor did they intimidate for the previous President to push for regime change either. The charge that this was planned IOT push a neo-con agenda is a conspiracy theory and no more valid in the real world than Just War Theory.

Perhaps you are tracking that it is reported as of yesterday that the Dem leadership knew about the whole water-boarding thing since '02 and actually pushed the agency go harder on these thugs. Now it is coming out that these leaders knew the agency destroyed the interrogation tapes. Nice about face. That is what can't be trusted IMO. These people will turn their backs on us for political expediency and have before, at the drop of a hat. If we won't play victim for them or spout the rhetoric, we are all brainwashed, robot, baby killers (right wingers no less). The second we play ball, we are an under payed minority who needs their protection from the right wing republican military industrial complex that is exploiting us for oil profits by corporate fat cats.

Mistakes. Yup. It happens.

Intentions were corrupt? Better bring more than what has been brought by way of talking points. I have seen no facts yet that are not strung together by a hidden hand. So that is what makes it a conspiracy.

Regardless, stay safe, do right by your men and get home to Mama.

Joey

5 rounds 225X3

I'm not saying that the politics of the war is the sole reason for officer retention, just that its a reason for quite a few, whether talked about overtly or not, I find a lot of the officers in a similar situation as me tend to keep their politics to themselves.

Never said or thought the neo-cons forced congress to vote a certain way or anything, I think that the evidence was misrepresented at a time when people, congress included, were blinded by 9/11. I'm not going to get into whether it was done intentionally or not, but I do think it should be investigated in depth. Deliberately presenting false evidence to congress is a felony crime. What evidence of that you have looked into or to what extent, I don't know, but there seem to be a lot of coincidences. I'm not here to change any opinions.

Personally I'm not worried about democrats or republicans. I find them to be more alike than they are different. Much more alike. Personally I distrust them all. I don't like the idea of political parties all together, because this is what you get. I look to guys like Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Ben Franklin, and Tom Paine as my resources for political views. What would they think of the situation?

Our way of life is based on suspicion of our government.

I'll bet a lot more people join b/c they believe in the mission rather than leave b/c they feel morally wrong and defiled.

I don't think a lot of people leave b/c of politics, just personal desires. A lot of people leave b/c it's hard on families & relationships. It's very tough to get a job as a Reservist. And it's very unfair, the retirement & sacrifice in the face of a public without any apparent sacrifice. You'd never guess we're at war. People go on with their lives. Shopping malls & Lattes. Not that I care about people enjoying life, but what is demoralizing and angering are the knuckleheads who know NOTHING about the true nature of the world outside our borders where the law of the jungle rules, and they have the nerve the idealistic & naive crap they spout. True shhiiteheads. Go ahead, be as weak as you like in your personal life, but don't ask the rest of us to be. It's ironic how those that complain the loudest about sacrifice are the ones who don't make any.

Invade Saudi, capture the oil fields. Pay off Russia & China. Air drop porn, ecstasy, liquor, & Mohammed cartoons. Beam in MTV and Sex Pistols. Viva la Revolucion!

as rx'd

50-60-65-70-70-75-75

Luckily you aren't in charge. A lot of countries have tried to fix their problems by force. It never works out for them in the end. If military force is the only card you have to play, you're in a bad way.

I believe we should focus on our internal problems rather than try to mold the rest of the world into something else. If we fix our own problems nobody can match the US. Oil is a big problem, getting more of it won't fix the long term problem. That is like taking out loans to pay bills. Sooner or later you're going to crash. What happened to American Ingenuity? We can get off the oil, we just have to be willing to do it and probably make a few sacrifices along the way. Brazil did it in the 70's during the first oil crisis. I think that is the best road for us to take. The technology is out there it just has to be cultivated. It's not something that will happen over night, but there is no reason not to get on it.

China is building an economy based around oil. It's consumption is going to surpass the US very soon. Once there is not enough oil to go around there could be very, very bad consequences. However if we are smart and take ourselves out of that loop before it is a crisis we will be able to go forward with no problem while the Chinese take a huge set back, possibly collapsing the communist regime there. Also, with out the US as a major buyer, this would cut into OPEC Nations GDP severely, which makes them less of a world player. You strike a severe blow to Muslim world power without spending a dime or a single american life lost. As Sun Tzu wrote, beating your enemy with out fighting is better than military victory.

In reference to National Debt, I don't think the government should be given the privledge of spending more money than they have and creating national debt, with the exception of only the most extreme circumstances (WWII). A good thing about this is that it helps keep government smaller and keeps the citizen in the loop. If the government wants to spend more they have to raise taxes which (should) bring it to the average citizen's attention and get them involved with what the government is spending their money on. All good things. Like Jefferson, I don't think that debt should be put on future generations.

As far as your enlistment/retention hypothesis goes, you're entitled to your own opinion. The sacrifices the average person makes is entirely up to the government, if they choose to reduce public awareness and for the most part push everything under the rug and just take out loans to pay for the war rather than pay for it with higher taxes and personal sacrifice (like WWII) and suffer the public taking a more focused look into what's going on, you get what we have now.

Then again, maybe I'm an idealist.

Jay H, when you said Sheepdawg007 was dead on, and the thrust of his opinion was that this was a set up by neo-cons , then that is how I read it. That you agreed with his position. However, if you agreed that this was not the best COA that was not the obvious answer by itself, though included in the first one.

To your point about the founding fathers. This is a deep discussion that involves a background on how we got where we are. this is book unto itself with regards to