November 23, 2007

Friday 071123

Rest Day

PittAmyPushJerk1-th.jpg

Enlarge image

Learning the Push Jerk - video [wmv] [mov]


Gary Taubes Interview - [mp3] and book - Good
Calories, Bad Calories

Post thoughts to comments.

Posted by lauren at November 23, 2007 6:29 PM
Comments

Oh my gosh. I can't believe how much I ate. Yummy.

Today is my first day in the Zone and I'm going to stick to it.

I can't wait to see the improvement in my performance and to finally look as strong as I am.

I know the first few weeks won't be easy.

Wish me luck..

p.s. 14 days until I'm AllisonNYC_*23*/5'2/114 :)

Comment #1 - Posted by: AllisonNYC_22/5'2/118 at November 22, 2007 7:21 PM

Yeah Shirley! Nice coaching Miller. Gotta remember those bright Orange Ts from SD cert!

Comment #2 - Posted by: sarena at November 22, 2007 7:36 PM

Must say, Great site. New to CrossFit. Love the burn. Thanks.

Comment #3 - Posted by: boogie72 at November 22, 2007 8:02 PM

Interesting argument. It really brings to light how the American scientific community isn't as objective as we are raised to believe.

I'm always suspect of any simple, easy solution to the obesity problem. Is it as simple as eating huge amounts of meat like on the Atkins diet or massive pasta bowls of endurance athletes? Nope. The only thing "simple" is the discipline to control what you are putting in your mouth. While simple, this is incredibly hard, especially in the upcoming Holiday Corridor between Turkey Day and Christmas.

Comment #4 - Posted by: Ski at November 22, 2007 8:11 PM

Is it just me, or is Jon Gilson finding his way into a LOT of photos/videos these days?

Very suspicious.

Comment #5 - Posted by: Clippa at November 22, 2007 8:14 PM

Yesterday I was told americans gain 7 pounds between thanks giving & christmas.

Comment #6 - Posted by: Celio at November 22, 2007 8:17 PM

No rest for me today,gotta make up for missed workout;gonna do "FRAN" & some "L"sits.
I'll post my times later today.

Comment #7 - Posted by: Keith at November 22, 2007 8:18 PM

#5: I noticed the same thing. I'm sure he's glad he's not wearing a dress in this picture though!

Comment #8 - Posted by: Jake@CFRVA at November 22, 2007 8:21 PM

did anyone else notice the "are you kidding me"-like look the guy in the center of the photo is giving? priceless...

Comment #9 - Posted by: Peter KM at November 22, 2007 8:24 PM

Ref Gary Taubes: I have read articles by Gary Taubes since 2002. What I find frustrating is that there has been no adequete study(s) to resolve the high carb vs high fat vs total calories question. Considering the billions of dollars at stake, it is an enigma to me that no one has resolved this issue.

Comment #10 - Posted by: Ken_Davis at November 22, 2007 8:27 PM

It seemed like Taubes gleened over the importance of exercise and focused mainly on diet practice. When I first heard the interview I thought he had a negative connotation towards exercise, but then after reading another interview he had done it was just a distaste for exercise being viewed as an end all for losing weight. Which all the athletes that gain weight, while regularly working out, can verify that is not the complete story.

I do like that such diets as Atkins, South Beach, and (most importantly) the Zone were mentioned because a lot of his emprical research is focused on programs that these authors/researchers have already performed.

I may check out his book because sometimes the science in the Zone went over my head. Also I would like to see if there's any hard science because it would be difficult to put a lot of value into what he's saying without providing the clinical tests that he says are missing from years of medical practice.

In the end I practice what he preaches, but that doesn't make his theories sound.

Comment #11 - Posted by: Robzilla at November 22, 2007 8:32 PM

Oh, and Rob Miller somehow makes the more complex movements like muscle-ups and jerks seem very easy to perform. You're instructionals are always helpful for explaining movements, and help me work out how to explain them. Thanks Rob!

Comment #12 - Posted by: Robzilla at November 22, 2007 8:34 PM

I agree with you ski, being suspect of any quick fix is pretty iffy. Taubes makes a good argument against carbohydrates, and how science.. sorry, the BUSINESS of science has not been overly objective and used improper information to many of their claims. simple carbs do raise insulin an d drive fat storage. but he does miss that not all fats are created equal, and not all carbs are created equal. even proteins, and yes i know many of you have looked at the amino acid profiles of whey vs soy vs red meat vs poultry et cetera.

I do not like how quick taubes rebutes the effect of exercise on fat loss/storage. Although not as simple as calories in/calories out, exercise does play a huge role in psychological factors (motivation etc), physiological (raising resting metabolic rates, improved CV ability AND most importantly BALANCING HORMONAL LEVELS!!) one large point to remember is this, everything in our body begins as a chemical signal and is transported as an electrical response. your tired... your body releases a hormone which slows down your metabolism and other processes. you eat simple carbs, insulin is released. even your fat cells act as a gland and release hormones, actually a few, one to store more fat, one to release, and the scary one.... one to activate dormant fat cells.

Through my own reading and research (BKIN, CEP, CSCS) its evident that the obesity trend is laden in multiple factors stemming from our culture. we are brought up in a culture of processed foors ( bad fats and bad carbs), exercise is slowly deminishing as the primary form of entertainment (kids arent playing stick ball no more, last winter i was hard pressed to see one kid playing in the snow, playing vids at home instead).

I suggest to alot of people to read up on " the Okinawa Program" its a review/cook book... ya i know... of the lifestyle... key here LIFESTYLE, of those living on the okanawan islands in japan (stop blamming the japs, that was years ago). This populous has the lowest occurance of cardiovascular disease, lowest occurance of the most common cancers, and the highest life expectancy of commonly over 90, and the most 100+ citizens. From birth they eat no processed foods, they do not exercise as we see it, but work all day in no stress to farm, cook, clean, build, have fun. The food they eat are primarily fish, tofu, wild rice, root vegetables (not starch based), indiginous fruit. Lets see here... no bad sugars, great souces of fat, low carbohydrate/glycemic, lots of protein. There is also a few case studies, on in particular of a young man who moved to the US and adopted US culture and customs, he gained weight within weeks and had numerous health complications. when he returned home and went back to his original habits, he lost the weight and was much healthier and less lethargic in general. What i am attempting to point out is that the answer to most of the obesity issues are out there, they are in our bodies, they are across the world, it just takes the right kind of mind to search in places that arent HERE. the western world has alot of answers.. unfortunately how to live a healthy life isnt one of them... sry north america... but you suck! Id take okinawa livin but with our opportunities (AND CF) any day... now that would be utopian wouldnt it!

Comment #13 - Posted by: tekev at November 22, 2007 8:37 PM

Liberty#7,
Ron Paul is a numb-nuts who has gained the favor of 9/11 truth-ers and neo-nazis. He should be ousted from of the Republican Party. His supporters are constantly rigging on-line polls and polluting forums with tripe and lies in order to push his sad campaign. You can find his supporters, generally at street protests along side "Code Pink" and the "We hate Israel" crowd. Pretty sad when your own party doesn't want you, so you become a Republican. Now he only finds support with the wack-o leftist protester movement and the bigots hiding out in academia.

Expect him to lose his Representative seat in Texas next go around do to his inability not to get sucker into every conspiracy out there and feel the need to be loved so much courts such sad and frustrated people.

The guy is a meat-stick of the first order.

Comment #14 - Posted by: CCTJOEY at November 22, 2007 8:45 PM

Taubes' book is outstanding. A thorough read that's worth every penny. The breadth and depth of his research gives an interesting perspective. The interview is good too.

Comment #15 - Posted by: steve hb at November 22, 2007 8:49 PM

Great video, really helpful for teaching. Rob is just plain awesome!

Comment #16 - Posted by: gaucoin at November 22, 2007 8:49 PM

Is Gary Taubes on "crack" to say that exercise does not help with weight loss, that people who exercise tend to be lean because they have a pre-deposition to be healthy. To also say that there are no studies out there to prove that exercise decreases a person body weight is crazy. There are numerous studies out there that shows this and this is a direct insult to me and anyone in the fitness field. Even if you burn 300 calories during an exercise it is not the same as cutting 300 caloreis from your diet it is because your body for the next 24 hours after an aerobic workout increases your metabolism which burns additional calories

He had some truth to saying about high carb diets not being good for you, but it has to do more with simple carbs which causes your blood sugar to rise rapidly, which then causes to secrete to much insulin which decreases your blood sugar levels and makes you hypoglecmic. Once you become hypoglecmic you feel hungry again,even though you stomach is stuffed

Comment #17 - Posted by: Chris at November 22, 2007 9:04 PM

I agree with the criticism of Taubes exercise statement, but I do not think that his thesis was as much trying to prove whether or not exercise helps as much as that carbohydrates make you fat.

Exercise DOES make you hungry, but if you satisfy that hunger with a high carb meal (which many people believe is okay), you will still be fat.

The other point that I really liked was how the medical community downplays the carbohydrate / fat connection. I am only 44 years old, but I remember when I was very young that diabetes was called "sugar diabetes". Somewhere along the line, the sugar lobby made sure that was changed.

It sounds like a good read. I have pretty much practiced the Zone diet for several years (but not today) and there is no question it works.

Comment #18 - Posted by: Ed at November 22, 2007 9:30 PM

One other point about the Zone and Adkins. For 5 years before going on the Zone, I was a vegan. While I am also one of the "lucky ones", that was the fattest period in my life, and I really began to feel like crap.

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!

Comment #19 - Posted by: Ed at November 22, 2007 9:35 PM

I think Taubes' comments on exercise were base on the fact that if you eat according to his suggested methods you will not necessarily be "fit" but you loose weight or not be over weight or obese.

I have never been obese but for athletic and aesthetic reasons I have toyed with different ways of eating or different diets. The one constant I experienced is when I eliminated unnecessary/ "bad" carbs I lost weight.

I have recently for the first time started the Zone. In the first few days of strictly following the Zone I could feel the "advertised" differences like weight loss and having the energy to effectively do CrossFit. Before the Zone I was eating like the Zone but I was not eating nearly eating enough food. It is obvious now why I was so tired and not making the progress I should have seen after five months of doing CF.

Final thoughts,
1.) The Zone works. It is not a no carb diet but compared to the suggested FDA way of eating it is a "low" carb diet.
3.) Selling carbs is a very big business. Carbs are the cheapest kind of food to make and selling them reaps the biggest profits for everyone from the producer to the grocer.
4.) If you read and study the scientific and medical reasons how we metabolize and process food it truly all makes sense.

Comment #20 - Posted by: Adam W at November 22, 2007 10:26 PM

I am about 2/3 through the book and the focus is completely on the effects of different types of foods on our health and how modern medicine, the FDA, and "the media" have got it all wrong over the last 50 years.

Taubes seems dismissive of exercise because exercise is not the subject of the book. I have found the book to be a very rigorous examination of how modern society has become fat (diabetic, cancer-ridden) and not about the "fitness" that is the focus of Crossfit. However, it goes hand in hand with what I believe Crossfit is trying to achieve.

Thanks Coach

Comment #21 - Posted by: g.luke at November 22, 2007 10:56 PM

Hey all,

I was just reading over the many posts about the zone diet and how much success people have been having with it. I recently went cold turkey off of fast food, i ate way too much...and have been eating clean, doing the wod's and have gained about 8 pounds in three weeks...any ideas why...

oh yeah, i am 6'1", 224lbs and have been lifting weights for years, so its not like a magic gain of muscle...

Comment #22 - Posted by: Devin at November 22, 2007 11:10 PM

I'm just wondering if there's anyone else in Charleston, SC that does Crossfit. I'm just lookin for someone else to look like a fool with me. I swear, when I do the WOD people in my gym look at me like I'm crazy. I guess its because I'm not doin the traditional 3x5 routines like everyone else. Oh well!!

Comment #23 - Posted by: Patrick M at November 22, 2007 11:12 PM

It's about MONEY.

How much do food processors pay farmers for potatos'?
How much do you buy a few ounce bag of potato chips for?

How much does the corn in a box of corn flakes cost it's producer? 12 cents.
How much do you pay for the box of flakes? $3.49.

THEY ARE MAKING MORE MONEY THAN DRUG DEALERS AND IT'S LEAGAL.

Why not if you've got the opportunity?
They spend some of that profit on the bureaucrat's to do as the crossfit journal states and try to keep the ball under water.

I would do the same. And YOU?
Pro

Comment #24 - Posted by: prochargedmopar at November 22, 2007 11:14 PM

I agree with #17 Chris,

There's a big difference between observing that the high-carb diets common in America cause obesity and saying that carbs are bad. The fact of the matter is that your body needs some carbs. Many cells can convert fat and protein into glucose, but neurons cannot. Glucose is the brain's exclusive source of food. Therefore, your brain needs carbs to function. Saying "carbs are bad" is simplistic and deceptive.

He should be telling people what kind of carbs are bad. For example, instant mashed potatoes tend to have a much higher glycemic index than peeled, boiled potatoes. As coach says, glycemic index matters. With this in mind, I might suggest that sugar is more of the problem, and not so much carbs in general.

At this point, it should be mentioned that calculating a food's glycemic index (GI) is not an exact science. It is done by having people eat a food and then measuring their blood sugar for awhile. Because a food's effect on blood sugar varies from person to person, they have to test multiple people to come up with a number. This is fine, and it gives us a convenient metric, but you should be aware that the GI of a particular food is not a known fact (like the mass of the kettlebell you just finished swinging). In fact, if you look up rice on the website http://www.glycemicindex.com (an authoritative source on the subject), you'll find that plain boiled white rice has been measured to have a glycemic index of anywhere between 43 and 112. Also, it used to be thought that carrots had a high GI, but we now know that they have a relatively low one.

(BTW, the website's FAQ clarifies that the variability in the GI of rice is real, not due to large measurement uncertainty. This takes away from the human variability argument, but just reinforces the idea that statements like the simplistic "rice = high GI" are inaccurate.)

So what's the point of all this? Be very careful at taking many of these oft-repeated generalizations at face value. If you really want to know the facts about how your diet affects your blood sugar, you should actually measure it yourself. It's also known that high-GI foods do not cause as much of a blood sugar spike when they are eaten along with low-GI foods. So it may be that a meal of rice (commonly stated to be a high-carb food to be avoided) and beans (a meal template eaten regularly by a large part of the world's population) will not cause a blood sugar spike, and actually may be very healthy.

Even in some of coach's videos on nutrition are somewhat tenuous in this area. In a one of his nutrition talks, he stated, "you eat the banana to get your potassium because it's full of sugar and it jacks up your blood sugar". This is interesting given that the aforementioned website lists a ripe banana (USA) as having a GI of 51. According to them, foods with a GI of below 55 are classified as low GI foods. I'd like to hear what coach has to say about this.

Summary: Do your own research. Don't just blindly follow the latest dietary fads.

Comment #25 - Posted by: MB at November 22, 2007 11:17 PM

Happy Turkey Day Yall

Comment #26 - Posted by: cjonnyrun at November 22, 2007 11:45 PM

Awesome video. Rob did a great job teaching. Awesome job Shirley!

Comment #27 - Posted by: backick at November 22, 2007 11:54 PM

re Taubes and Exercise - Rob Wolff had some stuff on this:

http://robbwolf.com/?p=34

Tuabes NY Times article on exercise and weightloss is worth reading on this for the full picture of his postion

http://nymag.com/news/sports/38001/

and Art DeVany discussed this a while ago too:

http://www.arthurdevany.com/2007/11/robb_wolfs_repo_1.html

http://www.arthurdevany.com/2007/10/food_or_exercis.html

Comment #28 - Posted by: Chris at November 23, 2007 12:54 AM

In general, I think that as long as you stay away from any sort of product that is processed or must be processed or baked to be eaten, you'll be ok and don't need to worry so much about GI as long as your balance is good. You end up pretty much being paleo then anyway.

Comment #29 - Posted by: Jay H at November 23, 2007 2:57 AM

Bob McDonald summed it up at the end of the interview when he said "there is more science to be done".

Gary Taubes is a journalist, not a scientist. He is promoting a hypothesis for which he has gathered no empirical evidence to support.

He's as dangerous and irresponsible as the folks of the 60's and 70's who made low-fat diets the standard for weight loss.

Comment #30 - Posted by: Charles Ottawa, Canada at November 23, 2007 3:46 AM

If you are interested in these food issues, I highly recommend a book called THE OMNIVORE'S DILEMMA. It really illuminates the nature of the industrial food chain, and helps us think critically about what is food quality and how do we get it when we are surrounded by crap.

It totally changed the way I shop for food.

Susie

Comment #31 - Posted by: Susie at November 23, 2007 4:09 AM

I can't play the article for whatever reason. My computer isn't having it. However, I am ebjoying the posts and for now can vicariously read it through you all.

Rob Miller~ Great video. I always enjoy watching Rob instruct! A wealth of knowledge, very humble, and his nonthreatneing approach with everyone makes him a model trainer, in my opinion. Thank you for a demo in how to teach the push jerk. I try to mimic alot of your instructions, tone, and body language (without stealing your identity! lol!) with my clients. I see it work so well for you, and teaches me alot about instructing my clients.

My wrists are still torn up from doing muscle ups the other day on my homeade GHETTO rings, so yesterday I did:

(50 lb vest)
50 pushups
50 situps
100 meter walking lunges

4 rounds for time.

It was 80 degress yesterday, and it was a beautiful day to be out in the middle of the soccer field with no one around (other than my bride telling me to "pick up the pace, slacker"(she's been cooped up in the house post-op, so I just let her slap me around verbally!LOL)). Thank doG today is a rest day.

Hope everyones Thanksgiving was great. My bride made a chocolate cream pie that only had 14g carbs in the WHOLE pie, and it was flipping awesome! Anybody wants the recipe let me know and I'll post!

~J~
~Train Hard and Push Through "IT"!~

Comment #32 - Posted by: J roCk at November 23, 2007 4:31 AM

Man, I'm having a job sticking to the WOD's.. :)

I skip one, next thing you know it's rest day, so I'll do some light cardio to keep me somewhat on track, before I know it it's been 3 days, and I've missed three.. Then I try to get back on the horse and smack-o it's something brutal like Murph, or 3 bars of death or clen n jerk... Then I'm sore for a week... :) AHG!

I'm publicly declaring this because I'm ashamed of myself.

:)

www.angrydalty.com/crossfit.htm

Comment #33 - Posted by: PatrickD at November 23, 2007 4:40 AM

#32 PatrickD

There is absolutely NO reason to be ashamed of yourself for any reason whatsoever! Really. I'm not trying to give you a pep talk or anything, but just the reality of it all. Any effort that you put in is a great job! It's 100% better than not putting in any effort at all. Getting used to the 3 on 1 off, and allowing your body ample time to recoop, is all part of getting into Crossfit. Chastising yourself for any effort is futile! Keep it up, keep putting in the effort, KEEP POSITIVE and all the reults will come!

REMEMBER THAT GETTING ACCLIMATED TO CROSSFIT AND TRAINING CROSSFIT IS VERY SIMPLE...

BUT JUST BECAUSE IT IS SIMPLE, DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT IS EASY!! SIMPLE vs. EASY...THE TWO DON'T USUSALLY GO HAND IN HAND.

Just my two cents. Anyone else have some words from experience for PatrickD?

~J~

~Train Hard and Push Through "IT"!~

Comment #34 - Posted by: J roCk at November 23, 2007 5:07 AM

Where is some good info on THE ZONE?

Comment #35 - Posted by: J roCk at November 23, 2007 5:14 AM

Attended Crossfit London Rings seminar. Big thank you to Andrew and Alex. So played catchup today. 30 muscle ups 11' 59" of pure excrutiating agony. Followed by Helen 9'35". Been a great week. My son is doing great at his new school, celebrated my first wedding anniversary and have now joined the muscle up club! Happy Thanks Giving over there.

Comment #36 - Posted by: Colin. LondonUK at November 23, 2007 5:17 AM

I hope everyone looks at the affiliate blog today :)

Comment #37 - Posted by: AllisonNYC at November 23, 2007 6:14 AM

Nice pics on the blog A-NYC! Ya just keep getting more nad more famous! Woo-hoo!
~J~

Comment #38 - Posted by: J roCk at November 23, 2007 6:19 AM

Seeing the link to Amazon I am reminded that the Humane Society has been trying to get Amazon.com to remove illegal animal fighting magazines from their website since 2005 which Amazon has not done. The magazines include Pit bull fighting and cock fighting. Being the owner of a beautiful Rednose Pit bull I will not use Amazon anymore.

Comment #39 - Posted by: Mac at November 23, 2007 6:27 AM

I wasn't talking about my myspace blog J.

Do you ever check out the affiliate blogs? It's right under the Crossfit journal link. There are cool pictures and videos of what's going on in our Crossfit community.

Some big news was announced there today.

Comment #40 - Posted by: AllisonNYC_22/5'2/118 at November 23, 2007 6:31 AM

i held off on Linda for my traditional Thanksgiving workout. Since 2 years ago, I have brought my time down more than 15 minutes.

so.....


31-year old male
5'10", 171#

Linda as Rx'd:
255#DL
175# Bench
135# Clean

27:10 (PR)

Comment #41 - Posted by: saggy at November 23, 2007 6:48 AM

Sorry A-NYC. I went and looked at the affiliate, The Black Box, website and saw your new pics there. I haven't had a chance to check out your new pics on myspace. Last ones I saw were of the waterfall and such.

However, thank you for clarifying what you were talking about (oops)! I will check it out.

Where can I find good instructions on the zone diet? I don't know alot about it and want to learn more.

Help!

~J~

Comment #42 - Posted by: J roCk at November 23, 2007 7:07 AM

another great teaching video. Hopefully we'll see more of Rob.

Comment #43 - Posted by: Intent at November 23, 2007 7:07 AM

Inregards to diet, I could only find three randomized controled trials. None had good compliance, and all found Zone, Atkins, LEARN to be about the same, with Atkins having a slight advantage. I think the talk of metabolic pathways and such is just hand waving.

The papers are:
Comparison of the Atkins, Zone, Ornish, and LEARN diets for change in weight and related risk factors among overweight premenopausal women: the A TO Z Weight Loss Study: a randomized trial.
Gardner CD, et. al.
JAMA. 2007 Mar 7;297(9):969-77.

Comparison of the Atkins, Ornish, Weight Watchers, and Zone diets for weight loss and heart disease risk reduction: a randomized trial.
Dansinger ML,et al.
JAMA. 2005 Jan 5;293(1):43-53.

Effect of weight loss plans on body composition and diet duration.
Landers P, et al.
J Okla State Med Assoc. 2002 May;95(5):329-31.

Comment #44 - Posted by: CZ at November 23, 2007 7:18 AM

Mr. Taubes argues that low intensity exercise is in essence, useless. I agree. However I must disagree that exercise does not play a role in body composition. He talks of the genetic predisposition of energy shunting, the body deciding whether to place the fat and carbs into the muscles or the fat cells. Some MAY be predisposed, but disposition is NOT necessity. It comes down to a matter of who needs it. Did you kill your workout today, work the muscles hard? Well then they need to repair damaged tissue and replenish glycogen and phosphagen stores. Did you sit on your rear-end watching "The Young and the Restless"? Well your muscles didn't use anything, there is nothing to restore and therefore your body stores it for later in adipose tissue, when you might use it later on.

When people say I have good genetics and that is why I am lean I do nothing but chuckle. People use genetics as an excuse to obesity and "love handles". What they don't understand is difference between genotype and phenotype. Your genotype are the total number of genes you have encoded in each cell. Not all genes are expressed however and the genes that are expressed and give physical characteristics is your phenotype. When a cell is stressed, a gene to handle that stress is activated, which makes a protein, which performs a function, which reveals a physical characteristic. When I engage in high intensity physical exercise different genes are expressed than when I sit at my desk and munch M&M's.


This is my personal story of genotype/phenotype. Feel free to ignore as it is rather long, but it illustrates my point anecdotally: My father has been obese my whole life, my brother was over 300 lbs (until I started him Crossfitting), and my mother is thin flabby (no exercise combined with eating like a bird). There are no phenomenal athletes in my extended family either. I do not come from an amazing genetic pool, however my own personal hard-work keeps me in great shape. I had a TERRIBLE diet growing up... the only vegetables I had were canned, TONS of instant mashed potatoes, a diet heavy in carbohydrates (to the tune of 70%+) but was still relatively lean (under 15% BF). How? Basketball on a more than regular basis and playing it AGGRESSIVELY. I was on a team that pressed full court, sprinted continuously during the game, and I regularly had little rest other than half-time. My diet stayed terrible, or perhaps got crappier when I went to college. I dropped the high intensity work and started more of a bad body building routine. I had rugby practice two days a week and a game on saturday's, followed closely by an afternoon/evening/early morning of drinking. As such? I started to gain weight, a majority of it as fat. My waist jumped from 33 in high school to 35... not a lot but a lot for me. I went to chiropractic school and started to change my diet, but not my workout routine. I was doing a bad body building routine, mixed with some running for "cardio". All low-intensity. I dropped ten pounds and an inch from my waist (now 34) in a year and a half. Then I found Crossfit. Without changing my diet I shredded the body fat I had in three months. My waist dropped to 31 inches, smaller than I could ever remember. I was still eating about 50-60% carbohydrates. My body fat is under 10% easily. My genotype was always the same, but the physical expression changed drastically and easily. The body adapts to the stresses placed upon it, change the stress and you'll change the physical expression.

Comment #45 - Posted by: Duvall at November 23, 2007 7:22 AM

Get the book and read Nicoles article "Getting off the Crack".

I have questions of my own. i've been on the Zone since I woke up this morning and I'm having a problem. I'm hungry!

What does everyone do when they get hungry on the Zone? Does it really go away with time?

maybe i should get up and do Helen since I missed her the other day. Right now I'm just laying in bed listening to my belly growl and I'm thinking about how to justify eating that cake in my fridge from last night... oh no

Comment #46 - Posted by: AllisonNYC_22/5'2/118 at November 23, 2007 7:24 AM

Interesting rest day topic after yesterday's binge at the table. One thing that Taubes didn't mention in the interview regarding the insulin response to carbohydrates is the use the body makes of the glycogen produced by the carbohydrate. What we call bad carbs are high glycemic carbohydrates, quickly converted into blood sugar (glycogen). If you're riding a bicycle at 24 mph, your body puts that glycogen to work immediately; if, on the other hand, you're sitting at your desk after having polished off a bagel, the insulin response kicks in to lower the heightened sugar level, which, in turn, makes you hungry and lethargic. This is my armchair understanding of a part of Dr. Sear's research. One other point. We shouldn't forget that for centuries, humans subsisted on a carbohydrate-rich diet because because foods like potatoes and rice were easy to produce and store; vegatables are much harder to grow and spoil rapidly, and meat also spoils quickly unless it is cured with salt (think Smithfield hams). Before refrigeration, salt was essential in food preservation; the reason Italians use parmesan cheese and anchovies in cooking is for their salty flavor. Real salt was too important in food preservation. Tuscans, nortiously frugal, don't put salt in their bread; if you're fortunate enough to travel to Florence you'll notice the bland flavor of the bread there. Anyway, most of our forebearers lived in agricultural or fishing communities in which everyone expended large amounts of calories in day long physical labor, fueled not by Power Bars but by potatoes. We post-industrial moderns, encouraged by mass marketing and recent bad science, have continued the carbohydrate tradition but have abandoned physical labor, present company excepted. No rest today. I'll do 80% max squats thanks to maximus. And thanks to him for his partitioning ideas. Great stuff. Later all.

Comment #47 - Posted by: john wopat at November 23, 2007 7:29 AM

Allie,

How many blocks are you doing for the zone?

The only tips I can think of are to
1) Make sure you're eating the proper amount of fats, because they will help curb your hunger
2) Eat lots of vegtables. If you get all of your carb allotment from veggies (low GI kind like string beans or broccoli) then it should be difficult to finish.

Give those a try and good luck Zoning!

Comment #48 - Posted by: Robzilla at November 23, 2007 7:42 AM

Mornin'

Brief thoughts on the article and diet:

I wonder if we will someday read about diet optimization according to genetic make-up. For example, a particular genetic group may be healthiest with a Zone-like diet while another may be healthiest on an Ornish-like diet. This may explain the seemingly random findings in some of the diet studies.

Many, many newcomers posting recently (just wait until New Year's time), some very active on the comments, some not so. Lots of questions about the Zone here recently. There is an incredible resource on the Message Board, the section on Diet and Nutrition. Sign up to interact or just read the amazing amount of info there. Remember that it is refereed for style and courtesy but not content. Nonetheless there are quite a few very knowledgeable folks there willing to help. "Where can I learn about the Zone Diet?" Asked and answered there dozens of times. "I'm incredibly hungry now that I've started the Zone." (I asked that one myself). Answered too. Remember to evaluate your own personal goals in choosing what version of the Zone to start: wt. loss->traditional; performance (a la Nicole)->athlete's Zone. Bon appetit...

Comment #49 - Posted by: bingo at November 23, 2007 8:23 AM

10 blocks

so that means an example of a meal for me is

3 ounces of plain chicken
9 olives
3 cucumbers

ahhaha

and then for a snack I can have
2 egg whites
6 peanuts and
a lemon

Comment #50 - Posted by: AllisonNYC_22/5'2/118 at November 23, 2007 8:24 AM

Most people over estimate the protein blocks based on activity level. Just doing Crossfit does not mean use the highest level of activity in Block calculations. If you over estimate your blocks, you may find that you pack on muscle, ie weight.

Comment #51 - Posted by: Drew at November 23, 2007 8:27 AM

Is that a joke? Who eats a lemon?

Comment #52 - Posted by: gaucoin at November 23, 2007 8:29 AM

#9 Peter KM, I'm the trainer in the middle of today's photo...talk about being caught w/ out a smile! I like to think it's because I was super focused, and to Amy's credit, her form on the push jerk progressed nicely during that session.

#40 J-Rock, check out CF Journal #21 for a functional overview of the Zone and a useful block example and portion size chart.

Comment #53 - Posted by: Tony Lichiello at November 23, 2007 8:29 AM

#44 john wopat,
Just a thought regarding your comment:

"We shouldn't forget that for centuries, humans subsisted on a carbohydrate-rich diet because foods like potatoes and rice were easy to produce and store; vegatables are much harder to grow and spoil rapidly, and meat also spoils quickly unless it is cured with salt."

The literature I've read suggests that for all of human evolution, right up until approximately 10,000 years ago, the primary staple in the diets of most civilizations was animal meat. In addition to meat, we supplemented our diets with fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds but only during times when meat was scarce. Most of the animals we preferred to eat were plant eaters and served to condense nutrition in their meats.

It appears as though we began farming practices no longer than 20,000 years ago and possibly as recently as 10,000 years ago as a means to make our lives more convenient. Our ability to domesticate specific plant species has led to a progressive increase in the consumption of grains and grain-based products, for which our digestive system was not designed. The centuries of consuming potatoes, rice, etc is but a flash in the scope of human evolution, during which our digestive machinery was formed. We still have yet to adequately adapt to high levels of grain consumption.

The brilliance of human beings to teach ourselves how to domesticate plants and animals is astounding, but we're meant to be hunter-gatherers.


Comment #54 - Posted by: dmarsh at November 23, 2007 8:39 AM

Mad props to Quirks and Quarks and the CBC.

Taubes is stirring the pot to sell his book.

Managing exercise, diet and a healthy weight is simple and known to many people. The problem is with compliance. Most people don't exercise and eat bad foods (greasy fast food) or over eat. Losing weight is as simple as calories in vs calories out. Clearly, exercise gives you calories out (so Taubes is wrong in dismissing the role of exercise). What people need to do is stop waiting for the parking spot beside the door of their gym and developing a physically active lifestyle. There are benefits to working out like a maniac (aka CrossFitting) but it is not a necessity to be healthy. For diet, the key is to be well balanced and use moderation. The Zone may optimize your performance, but this is not a necessity to be healthy! For the average person, they shouldn't be considering whether to use a high fat/low carb diet vs low fat/high carb diet. They should be considering the amount of food. You need to eat fruits and vegetables, protein, carbs and fats every day. You need some of each, but you also need to stop eating like it's Thanksgiving all the time and put down that fork. Having enough food and stuffing yourself is challenging, but important.

The reason there hasn't been a lot of studies on which is the best diet is because these facts are known. No matter what food (protein, carbs, fat) you eat, your body will turn it into energy. If you do not expend that energy, it will get put away into storage. The link between cholesterol and heart disease is also known. As is the mechanism of how high cholesterol builds plaques on and thickens your arteries aka causes heart disease.

Having a 3minute Fran or being able to do 30 muscle ups is not the only way to be healthy. You probably are healthy if you can do those. (And hopefully in a few more months, I will be able to too!)


Having a physically active lifestyle and well balanced diet is a guaranteed way of maintaining a healthy weight.

Comment #55 - Posted by: Matt at November 23, 2007 8:51 AM

I eat lemons all the time. I've been doing it since I was a kid.

But I can't eat 3 cucumbers. that's just sick.

Comment #56 - Posted by: AllisonNYC_22/5'2/118 at November 23, 2007 8:56 AM

I agree completely with John Wopat. However, one other point missing is that the reason meat is generally used in smaller portions and grains and potatoes are used in higher portions around the world is that meat costs more to produce than potatoes or grain do. In the article the point about about some Africans being fattened up by being given carbs or the Sumo wrestlers given carbs, I believe that the reason this is done is partly from an economical standpoint.

#49 gaucoin-
While I don't think I would purposely sit down and eat a whole lemon by itself, a neat thing that we just discovered this past summer that works amazingly fast, is when you are nauseous (Pukey is hunting for you or for whatever reason) bite into a lemon wedge and the nausea goes away.

Kate

Comment #57 - Posted by: jknl at November 23, 2007 9:00 AM

Beware! "Good Calories, Bad Calories" contains much of value, but is a very tough read. I struggled through, but can't recommend the book.

At over 400 pages, the book is twice as long as it needs to be. "Good Calories, Bad Calories" is a thin book hiding inside a fat one. Everyone needs an editor. If Taubes had one, he didn't do his job. The book is poorly structured. It reads more like a first draft than a finished product. The constant repetition and muddled chronology are extremely irritating.

That said, Taubes is bang on in demonstrating how a small group of "experts" were able to overturn
the prevailing nutrition wisdom, propagate their mistaken theories, and lead nearly everyone astray in recent years.

Like the best journalists, Taubes is a born skeptic who is not intimidated by the prevailing orthodoxy.
But he sometimes carries his contrarianism too far. His disdain for exercise is over the top and is not supported by the evidence he presents in the book. In post publications interviews, Taubes seems to be backing off by adding caveats and qualifications.

As a non-scientist writing about scientists and their shortcomings, I think Taubes secretly craves academic respectability. Maybe that's what's behind the "pile up the facts and repeat them ad naseum" prose style.

Comment #58 - Posted by: Daniel Freedman at November 23, 2007 9:44 AM

Oh I made a mean post-workout drink that's got half a lemon and lime in it and it's the best thing going as far as feeling replenished, I just didn't envision people eating a lemon the way you'd eat an orange.

Comment #59 - Posted by: gaucoin at November 23, 2007 10:08 AM

Daniel Freedman,
As always, well said.

Matt,
I agree with you in principle but I think there is a lot more science to it than you proclaim.

I have an uncle (he is a priest) who works as a missionary in Africa. He spends 3 years on (i.e. in Africa) and 6 months off (i.e. at home). His African diet is almost completely carbohydrate based and very high in starch(i.e. corn, rice, bread). When he returns home every 3 years he is overweight. While at home he eats a balanced diet. Everything else is fairly constant. In fact he is probably less active while at home. During his 6 months here he loses all of his extra weight to the point where he buys new clothes before returning.
It facinates me each time this happens.

Comment #60 - Posted by: Charles Ottawa, Canada at November 23, 2007 10:12 AM

There is a lot of anthropology being spouted here today... here is a good one that I read called "Guns, Germs and Steel". Lots of detail on the evolution of human diet.

Comment #61 - Posted by: charles Ottawa, Canada at November 23, 2007 10:17 AM

In terms of dry reading? This book will give you chapped lips.

The science, to all CFers with an attachment to their performance, should come as no surprise. An understanding of carb density and its nightmares has been around in the strength and physique comunity for years. At the exteme end with Dan D.s 'BodyOpus' and work by Mauro DiPasquale leading the charge in the CKD world to levels of the Zone with as much as 3-5x the fat as perscribed by Sear's 1-2-3 gram ratio persciption.

Even as we all harp on the Zone and us its 'science', few if any of us actually follow the fat block recomendations: I triple them, and from Journal articles past we know Nicole does as much 5x the Zone norm... so the fact is that most avid-to-hard core CF folks are NOT following the Zone but rather the 'CF Zone'.

It's way past due for coach and company to clarify this in hardcover. Our attachment to zone as guide is well and good, but we are far from followers of the plan when instead of 15g of fats as defined we eat 75g....


Just a thought.

Comment #62 - Posted by: Chef at November 23, 2007 10:21 AM

I didn't mean I squeeze lemon in my water. I cut them in half and eat them!

I don't understand why everyone hates lemons. I love them.

Comment #63 - Posted by: AllisonNYC_22/5'2/118 at November 23, 2007 10:25 AM

I have noticed that occasionally someone will post their time for there WOD and then say they did Fran or some other WOD. I don't know what the three metabolic pathways are or how they work. Is it ok to do two WODs in one day or to do one on a rest day? Will you be messing with your metabolic pathways?

Comment #64 - Posted by: botdoy at November 23, 2007 11:07 AM

#54 - Matt
"Losing weight is as simple as calories in vs calories out."

For what it's worth, my personal experience: I used to be a 'calories in, calories out' kinda guy, but since I started pseudo-zoning a few months ago & hard-core zoning a few weeks ago I've seen more dramatic changes than ever before. Arguably no one burns more calories in a week than distance athletes; I did some serious 1/2 marathon training for a year with a 'calories in/out' approach; and am way leaner & stronger on 3mo of crossfit/zone. So I've converted.

But I think Bingo's right - results may vary.

Comment #65 - Posted by: Reto 33m/185/xfit week 10 at November 23, 2007 11:36 AM

Ski #4, I completely agree with you!
Modesty is required everywhere :-)
I believe that if we don't eat too much, and that if we don't man-made artificial food everything is going to be fine. But it is difficult to forget that chocolate exists...

Comment #66 - Posted by: Evgeni at November 23, 2007 11:48 AM

#48 bingo,
With regard to diet optimization according to genetic makeup, you might be interested in a book titled "Metabolic Typing Diet" by William Wolcott. Very good book detailing how and why people are not alike and they should not follow the exact same diet plan.

Comment #67 - Posted by: dmarsh at November 23, 2007 11:56 AM

31/M/163

Had to take a by on yesterday's WOD (due to work, not turkey). So I've made up for it today.

120 Pull-ups, 120 dips.

11:49.9

Happy Thanksgiving (late)

Comment #68 - Posted by: colombiano at November 23, 2007 11:59 AM

Forgot to say: I didn't like the voice of that guy Taubes and the way he speaks. I don't know why but this is important to me if I am to believe someone.
About the genetic make-up: some time ago I watched on TV some woman "testing" people about which food is best for them. However, I have no idea how is this being done and how reliable is it. Also couldn't get the address of that studio.
The woman doing this told a story about a 150kg man who was eating only chicken, and who started losing several kg's per week after he switched to pork.

Comment #69 - Posted by: Evgeni at November 23, 2007 12:32 PM

dmarsh: Point well taken. Yes, agricultural societies relied on cheap, easily stored grains, earlier hunter gatherers did not. Jared Diamond's book is well worth the effort. Speaking of effort, back squat 5 x 135,185,205,205,205; press 5 x 65,85,100,100,100. Thanks Maximus. Kate, are you on the mend?

Comment #70 - Posted by: john wopat at November 23, 2007 12:35 PM

#32 and the crossfit community
A nifty little bit of inspiration I read in outside magazine
"The hallmark of a life long athlete is not just the ability to focus but to refocus"
Self explamitory right?
I also have a rule with myself- No guilt allowed in my fitness routine. Guilt takes away strength rather than build it up.

Comment #71 - Posted by: cyber sheperd at November 23, 2007 12:40 PM

Lemon lovers and haters:
My wife, Sarah, LOVES lemons...and now my 3-year old eats them...and likes hot-peppers (sucking on pickled ones).
Good Video...I need to work on my jerk. My clean feels solid while my jerk feels weak.
Haven't read the book...heard it's dry and longer than it needed to be.
I will that you can lose weight eating less energy than you burn...but I think the quality of the food you eat is going to be a factor in your condition. Same thing with exercise...do too much of the same thing and pay the price (eg runner's knee). So we're crossiftters...we diversify our regimens to include dozens of exercises (functional ones) into hundreds of WOs, never to be repeated in the same order in your lifetime. Eat omega 3 fats (the right one), lean proteins, veggies, some fruit, nuts, seeds...little starch, no sugar.

Comment #72 - Posted by: Alex/Canada/26/6'2"/100kg at November 23, 2007 12:45 PM

45yof/137#

Taught yoga then lifted! Yeah!! On my own without a spot so was cautious!
warmup up with dowel
Then light Cleans
45x3 &
LightSnatches
35x3
45x3x2
50x2
50F

FS
warmup
50x5
55x5
70x3x3
then worksets of (#s)
95x3
100x3
105x5x2
110x3
115x3
120x3

Seveal lightweight band pullups. Shoulder feelin better!
all weight in #s

Comment #73 - Posted by: sarena at November 23, 2007 12:57 PM

Opps...pressed 'post' too soon.
That should say "I will say that..."

Comment #74 - Posted by: Alex/Canada/26/6'2"/100kg at November 23, 2007 1:04 PM

31/m/185lbs

Took yesterday off due to excessive celebrations the night before. Today did:

5rounds for time of:

5 Hang Cleans 135lbs
10 Pullups
20 Pushups
40 Squats

I hit the stop button on my watch at around the five minute mark by accident so i don't know how long it actually took me but it felt like eternity and here I am 30 minutes later still shaking and feeling nauseous. It's great!

Comment #75 - Posted by: Jeff at November 23, 2007 1:28 PM

Do we have an affiliate in Vermont? I go up every weekend and would have to have a place to workout. Mix it up a little.

Otherwise I'll try to organize a WOD with all the people in my house.

I have a feeling the only Crossfit workout they'll be up for is Tabata Shots.

Comment #76 - Posted by: AllisonNYC_22/5'2/118 at November 23, 2007 1:35 PM

Interesting interview. Through my own experience, I agree with him that in losing weight, exercise's effects are negligible and diet is paramount. I did triathlons and then later CrossFit while significantly overweight and neither helped me lose an ounce. I had to change my diet drastically (very close to a paleo-type diet) and that's when I quickly lost all my extra weight.

However, my problem with the interview is that it only seemed to discuss losing weight and didn't talk at all about health! I don't think that being thin is equal to being healthy or that losing weight means you are becoming healthier.

It seems to me (though I have no research to back me up) that both diet and exercise are very important to health, whereas only one will make all the difference in losing weight.

Comment #77 - Posted by: Kim in MT at November 23, 2007 2:50 PM

28/f/107

30 bar muscle ups:

4:50

Comment #78 - Posted by: nadia shatila at November 23, 2007 3:07 PM

Wow, nice work, Nadia.

Comment #79 - Posted by: john wopat at November 23, 2007 3:48 PM

Nice work Nadia! Having some gymnastic flashbacks?

Comment #80 - Posted by: freddy c. at November 23, 2007 4:14 PM

A lack of attention to the numbers and actual data is nothing new! Mendell's data supporting the Gene Theory is not reproducable! Did the Monk lie to us or was so enthusiastic that he ignored the satistical impossibility in his data when we account for natural variation and gentetic drift. The Fat/Carbo data is not the newest to be ignored its just the one that can kill us slice by slice

Comment #81 - Posted by: peicc at November 23, 2007 4:28 PM

Good Advice, Bad Advice?

I was right along with him until he started commenting on exercise. It reminded me of one of those puny haters in college who made the comment about anybody in any physical condition especially toward the serious athlete, 'roid freak, meat head, ect. Sounds bitter about something.
The comment about exercise keeps orthos in business? Well Peanut Butter keeps the Jelly people in business too. Thats how ridiculous that comment was.
A friend of mine who changed nothing in his high carbo diet simply bought a bike and started taking to from school and work. Nothing else, lost a ton of weight and looked the best I've seen him. That dosn't mean he was healthy but he did lose wt.
Anyway nutritionally he on, but why he would discredit exercise? That's just ignorant.

Comment #82 - Posted by: sflat8 at November 23, 2007 5:20 PM

25/M/208#

Caught up for yesterday's workout. I was really looking forward to doing MUs after getting my first successful MU, three weeks ago. The gym with the rings is closed through the weekend. I did 120 pull-ups and 120 dips.

120 pull-ups and 120 dips as rx'd: 20:17

Comment #83 - Posted by: Neags at November 23, 2007 5:21 PM

Bwt:153.5, :18::15, @70 off

Sep 23, Bwt:153 :18::30, @80 off

July 1, Bwt:157 :35::00, @90 towel pull ups
and 80 off dips

June 3, Bwt:162 :27::39, @80 off

April 26, Bwt:165 :35::05 @80 off

Comment #84 - Posted by: Buela at November 23, 2007 5:24 PM

allisonNYC... your hot but, mmm... strange. Lemon? Well, whatever you like I guess but if your hungry, eat! Eat properly, zone or whatever you follow, but eat. Put together right your body will use it.

Comment #85 - Posted by: sflat8 at November 23, 2007 5:44 PM

J Rock: The info regarding the Zone diet from CFJ #21 can be found on the Front Range Crossfit site under "nutrition" on the left hand side of the home page. The books are helpful too, but this has everything you need to get you started. Good luck

Comment #86 - Posted by: doodlebug at November 23, 2007 6:01 PM

I bought my DUFFEL BAGS. I bought my PEA GRAVEL.

Put 'em together, and whaddya got? Effective training device? Big bag of suck? Both? We'll find out tomorrow....

Comment #87 - Posted by: Dan Puckett at November 23, 2007 6:08 PM

did "FRAN" today
10'06"

Comment #88 - Posted by: Keith at November 23, 2007 7:01 PM

Health and performance are very different things. Eating a well balanced diet and having a physically active lifestyle will make you healthy. The zone diet may optimize your performance. (All the anecdotal evidence on this site makes me thing it for sure will.) But being a CF machine like Greg, Rob, Nicole, Brendan and all you others out there does not mean you are healthier. This is why I don't like Taubes' arguments. His claims about reducing chronic illness, like heart disease, may be true but not the only way to go! Health is multi-factorial.


AllisonNYC, I'd love to do some tabata shots with you. You just have to cross the border into Ontario.....

Comment #89 - Posted by: Matt at November 23, 2007 7:03 PM

#69 John Wopat-
Thanks for asking, I am hoping that on Sunday or Monday I can start back up again, provided I don't do anything stupid!

Kate

Comment #90 - Posted by: jknl at November 23, 2007 7:18 PM

f/45/132ish
did 120 pullups 120 dips
34:49
1st 60 pullups were strict overhand
remaining were all underhand, strict and so much easier!

dips were a breeze compared to pullups
I finally started to just naturally kip
it's about time

AllisonNYC,
You must LOVE sweet tarts if you can eat lemons like that! Good luck with the zone. Just keep reading Nicole's article when it gets rough and throw that cake right down the garbage disposal, or down the toilet. Otherwise it will keep calling your name. Garbage doesn't work. It will call you from the garbage too. he he !

Comment #91 - Posted by: gina johnson at November 23, 2007 7:26 PM

AllisonNYC-

There's no affliate in Vermont but there's a few of us following the WOD's somewhat independently. Where in VT are you visiting? If it's in my neck of the woods, I can sign you in to a gym as long as our schedules aren't conflicting.

Comment #92 - Posted by: hub at November 23, 2007 7:52 PM

Quick, bets on tomorrows WOD..

Comment #93 - Posted by: Gavin at November 23, 2007 8:36 PM

Haven't seen the CFT in a while. Could it be time?

Comment #94 - Posted by: cory Chi-town at November 23, 2007 8:59 PM

To Patrick #22...the reason you are getting funny looks in the gym is because you are actually doing something in the gym. Take it as a compliment.

RE the whole diet dialogue. I did some some quick investigating on the Calorie Restriction regimes. Some are seriously over the top and contrary to the fitness goals of crossfit. The extremists claim a loss of muscle and bone mass in the quest for immortality. I don't see a lot 6' 135# athletes in the crossfit videos. The Zone is defineitely a calorie limited diet, but not to the extreme that the CR community promotes. Any thoughts?

Comment #95 - Posted by: C-Shore at November 23, 2007 9:03 PM

Again aboslutely amazing instruction by Rob. this vid is definately a keeper but then arent they all!

Comment #96 - Posted by: jamienoki at November 24, 2007 12:00 AM

Did
3x
400m
20x 1 pood kettlebell swings
10x ring dips
10x ring chins
time 13.30
my mate did the same in 18.51-he sucked!

Comment #97 - Posted by: miles key_west sussex at November 24, 2007 2:48 AM

Thursday, reckless abandon on the diet front. Yesterday not much better with a bottle of wine to wash it all down.

The result? Bonk. Bonkity Bonk Bonk.

Sub 30lbs. thruster for the overhead squat at home. Time I don't know but I'm thinking it was fairly pathetic.

Interesting though when I'm eating zone I still like to have a drink but not a lot. Off the zone I want to drink like a fish.

Comment #98 - Posted by: sflat8 at November 24, 2007 11:16 AM
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