Shoot, I wanted to go to that KB certification soo bad but I have the world's best excuse, my wife is due in 5 days. Woulda been cool, though, as it looks like some of the old school CF types were there, too...

Another great video, Coach.

Does anyone here run marathons/ultras? I'm curious about how this program works with those types of events.

Found this online. Thought it was funny and was curious how the crossfit community would view the following prescription. Apparently this is how we are suppose to prescribe exercise.

When prescribing exercise, fitness professionals most commonly use the FITT principle, which stands for frequency, intensity, time (duration) and type of exercise. While frequency, time and type are relatively straightforward, determining an appropriate exerciseintensity for your members can be problematic. One way to do this is to prescribe a target heart rate (HR) range. However, even though youmay determine that two members should exercise at the same percentage of their maximal capacity (and, thus,the same HR), one may perceive that intensity to be easy, while the other may perceive the same percentage to be toodifficult.

How can this be? A new study helps to shed light on this apparent discrepancy.6 When subjects were assigned target heart rates corresponding to 50 to55 percentof heart rate reserve, half of the subjects were below their ventilatory threshold --the point when ventilation increases disproportionately relative to exercise intensity (Figure 1) --and half were above it. Thus, half of the subjects perceived the exercise to be manageable, while the other half perceived the exercise to be too difficult. A major goal when prescribing aerobic exercise should be to find a level thatis tolerable for each individual, and can becontinued for at least 20 to60 minutes.1

Other ways to prescribe exercise involve subjective measures, such as ratings of perceived exertion (RPE) or, more recently, the talk test. In fact, another study found that 48 percent of subjects prefer subjective measures to guide their exercise intensity, as opposed to monitoring their heart rate.2RPE can be measured using the traditional six to20 Borg scale, or the newer, one to 10 category/ratio Borg scale. Using either of these scales requires training, however, and a certain percentage of people never seem to become proficient in their use.

When using the talk test, it is recommendedthat individuals exercise at an intensity where they can still carry on a normal conversation. If your clients exercise harder than that, then theyare exercising at an intensity that may be too strenuous, and one at which theymay not be able toachieve and maintain a steady state.

Wow. The last paragraph is the best :)

I really hope no one is surprised by what they read in the article. The world functions by the rules of the jungle. Anything that resembles 'PEACE' is an illusion created by the threat of violence of the free towards the thugs who would rule us all with threat of death.

I would enjoy to hear a a Muslim's and/or Iranian's perspective on this article. If you are out there PLEASE expound.

Thanks in advance,
Joey

"The outside world would do well to carefully monitor and, whenever possible, support the Iranian people's fight against the fascist regime in Tehran."

This article is long on examples of the Iranian government's suppression of dissent and short on concrete examples of "support."

What does "support the Iranian people's fight against the fascist regime in Tehran." mean? For some a bumper sticker stating "down with fascism" might suffice, but I suspect that Mr.Taheri favors a more direct intervention, such as direct political pressure, support of a coup, or perhaps a US-led invasion.

So a decision must me made by the American people: Shall we pursue a doctrine of overt military intervention to Islamic Fascism, or shall we withdraw from the region, smarting from defeat in Iraq that stems from a lack of public support for the administration carried us there under false pretenses?

I, myself, have no problem with pursuing military intervention of Islamic Fascism, provided that our political leaders are straight with us. That is a lot to ask of a politician, I know. I can't believe that I'm saying this but I believe our President's "we're are fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them over here" principle. It's just that the administration has such a track record of deceit and mismanagement that no one is listening, or wants to hear from the President anymore. He has used up his credibility.

Perhaps the next administration will convince the American public that Islamic Fascism is real and must be stopped.

John West

"Khomeinist paranoia reached a new peak last week when the authorities announced, through the Islamic Republic News Agency, the capture of four squirrels in the Western city of Kermanshah and claimed that the furry creatures had been fitted with "espionage devices" by the Americans in Iraq and smuggled into the Islamic Republic."

Darn it! They found our freaking squirrels!

How about this John; we give every weapon we seize from the terrorists in Iraq to dissidents in Iran? :-)

#3 Chris,
Does muttering one barely audible syllable per breath (usually profanity) constitute a "normal conversation" by their definition?

First I would just like to say the Kettlebell Certification was awesome. Hard work all day and left us all, at least me completely dead for Monday morning. Thank you all for the wonderful weekend. I will have to wait a week before my hands recover from the "low quality" bells we were using.
Second, I just read a great article in Men's Vogue, hopefully the link works if not it is in the Health and fitness section on their website. Just thought you all would be interested in. Something us CrossFit diehards know all to well already.
http://www.mensvogue.com/health/regimen/articles/2007/06/rocky_camp

"Shall we pursue a doctrine of overt military intervention to Islamic Fascism, or shall we withdraw from the region, smarting from defeat in Iraq that stems from a lack of public support for the administration carried us there under false pretenses?"

We should intervene if it is a direct threat, and not otherwise. It is not morally justified (nor can we afford) to go around policing the globe and fighting evil dictators, because the world is full of evil people. Our government has an obligation to protect its own citizens and their property, and not to put either American lives or property at risk for non-U.S. citizens.

Iran is not a threat just as Iraq was not a threat to the U.S. The regimes of those countries are threats only to their own citizens. If the citizens are unhappy with their government, then it is their duty to rebel, not the duty of the U.S. or the U.N.

Economic sanctions are no solution either, as those only breed hostility (just as they did with Germany and Japan prior the US entering WWII). As French economist Frederic Bastiat put it, "If goods don't cross borders, armies will." Economic sanctions, military intervention in other countries, and foreign aid to select regimes only creates more hostility for the U.S. Labeling other countries as an "axis of evil" doesn't help either.

"I can't believe that I'm saying this but I believe our President's 'we're are fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them over here' principle."

I think a better principle would be to fight them neither here nor there. If the Iranian people are unhappy with their government, then they can do something about it. It is not our business.

#2 Hannah
The best long answer is most likely found in the October 2002 CrossFit Journal.
Go to the main page and scroll down on the left and look for the article,(or type into your "find" drop-down list) "What is Fitness?"

A short answer is CrossFit will increase your overall fitness but you will still have to pay specific attention to the sport/event in which you want to specialize.

Regards.

What is rest? Definitely NOT something I will allow myself today!

The numbers in this article are staggering. They are very high. Tens of thousands of people being arrested in very short amounts of time, Iran's prisons do not have adequate capacity for such flows. "The numbers of suspicious deaths are at all time highs." Whoa. I had no idea things were this bad. Iran is stopping the press. Re-writing textbooks. Black-listing authors. Blocking websites. They are painting themselves as victims, being attacked by internal and external forces.
--

First and foremost: We cannot tolerate Shari'a Law domestically. Never can Islamic law become "OK" here.

And guess what? Iran knows this, they are not stupid. I'm going to try to work backward from Amadinejad's spoken/true goal of "death to America" and "Islam will rule the world." How could he get there?

Ok, so who would enforce Shari'a law the best? Who would be the leaders in a world where Shari'a law reigns? That would be those who are perceived to be either the most "pure" or the best enforcers, or both. Maybe Iran is trying to do create this image. Hypothetical here, I am just thinking through this, maybe this was a bad first step.

What needs to happen before this? A mass movement. A worldwide acceptance, not just tolerance (that comes just before). It needs to be complete embracing of Shari'a Law, many many people will need to die first. Many women. Once there is a mass movement with no leader, Iran can step in as the beacon of hope for Islam, for heaven, for Allah. Crazy, I know.

What happens before the mass movement? Well, according to Eric Hoffer, author of the book, THE TRUE BELIEVER: thoughts on the nature of mass movements. There needs to be people susceptible to the "hope" a mass movement can offer. They need to want change. Substitutes, options, are created. Disadvantaged and desperate people turn to these options first. (poor, uneducated, under-privileged, threatened by car bombs) They turn to hope, to something to take them away from what they are experiencing.

What we need to do is put ourselves in Iranians shoes. What options do they have? Will unrest, free speech, and peaceful protest help them? Imagining for a second that no one wants to face death for change, is there anything they can do, peacefully?

IMHO, I think the world needs to more actively realize that they can help themselves. People in Iran can change their government. They can start a mass movement against the one Iran might be starting. There is no reason America should be the policing force for freedom when we are already stretched thin as it is. People need to learn to fight their own fights. We can supply them of course, train them, whatever. They just need a leader who can dodge Iranian police effectively.

Overt wars are a freaking mess, and we have yet to master counter-insurgencies/Gorrila enemies. Ofcourse, there's always a time and place...but this country's government (Iran) seems so freaking backwards that it's well on its way to self "adjustment"...I think a few covert nudges in theright direction wouldn't hurt.
My concern with overt wars is the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing. Many radical factions in the midle east and else where, are happily killing each other I don't want them to unite against a common enemy (us). I think we should keep a steady eye on everyone and everything, and be frugal with the amount of lives, money and resources we spend to make global adjustments.
I'd like to echo CCTJOEY about some muslim/ Iranian light on the subject.

Finaly, those squirrels, should prove to Iranians how f-ing awsome the U.S.A is.

Now that you mention it, i want to see more detailed information on how i can combine CF with my daily activities and sports.

Hope this request achieves critical mass soon.

I woke up this morning thinking "What can I do today to add to the world?" and then I saw Glassman's lecture.

Refocused and reinspired me tenfold once more.

Chris (#3),
I've heard of FITT before, and if you look at the Intensity vid on the how to affiliate page you'll hear Coach talk about what is intensity? Essentially it's relative to your psychological and physiological tolerance. So if you're pushing yourself hard, you're working at high intensity.

As regards never exercising past your ability to speak, well that's Silly BS and you'd be hard pressed to find any CFer who'd agree with it.

Colm

Im not Iranian, but I have spent a significant amount of time on the Iranian problem.

Its easy for the average U.S. citizen to forget that we are in fact largely responsible for the current regime's opportunity to rise to power. The CIA essentially manufactured a coup of a fairly benign, popularly elected leader, and installed the Shah, because we felt he would be friendlier to U.S. oil interests. Unfortunately the Shah also had a bad habit of running death squads and brutally torturing and murdering those who opposed him. This bred hatred for the U.S., who continually overlooked this problem.

The eventual rise of the Islamic Fundamentalists from the opposition groups reads like a story from the French Revolution. As soon as the shah was displaced, the Islamofascists began killing the opposition, and we are still dealing with them today, decades later.

Of course, we pretty much created Saddam Hussein the monster to try to balance the Iranian Islamic republic, which sparked a huge war that killed millions. Twenty years or so later, we hung our creation and have spent close to a trillion dollars trying to get his nation back on track, largely without success.

Blowback is a bitch.

Today, the average educated Iranian is by and large fed up with the Islamic Republic, and the oppression that comes along with it, but there is still alot of support for the islamofacists from the common populace. Its clear that the world would be better off with a moderate west leaning non religious government, but keep in mind, Iran had that at one point, and we blew it for them.

There comes a point where you have to let people solve their own problems, and quit interfering with the internal affairs of other nations, with the exception of trading with everyone decent, and supplying arms to the oppressed. Its my opinion that that time was around 1953, yet we havent learned that lesson yet, and keep doing the same thing, hoping for a different result.

Im told that that is the definition of insanity.

If anyone is interested in a laymans view of the Iranian revolution, there is a cute comic book type reader called Persepolis by Marjane Satrapi that can be read in less than an hour, but gives a fairly decent view of the domestic political dynamics involved.

I wasn't happy with this morning's performance on the snatches so I went back.

m/19/162

CFWU x 2

Weighted Pull Ups
5x25#
3x30#
3x35#
1x45#
1x50# (fail)
2x35#

2000m Row
7:22.9 - Wooo! This good enough for a Level II skill standard, so I guess rowing isn't really my weak point after all. Time to work on my pull ups and dips, methinks.

"Anything that resembles 'PEACE' is an illusion created by the threat of violence of the free towards the thugs who would rule us all with threat of death." Word.

Hmm, I could never hold a conversation when I'm out running. I might be able to gasp a monosyllabic answer or two but that's it. Thing is, I am still only clocking 10 minute miles. I realise the problem might be the fact I have a short stride so my legs move quite fast but don't cover much ground. I noticed this the other day when a tall, leggy girl loped past me. She was running slower, yet covering far more ground. I've tried taking bigger strides but it just doesn't feel natural to me.

Al alway, interesting reading material.
Nice article in Vogue as well. Looks like fun.
today's training:
First skill: martial arts doble stick and sword
strenght: weighted pull-ups: 5x 5-10-15 kg then 2x4x 20 kg. Wanted to do 5 reps but could not get my chin above the bar on the 5th rep.
Last Elizabeth: sub 50 kg hang-squat clean + ring dips.
time: 9:42 min. Time to up the weight.
have fun, Johan

Enjoyed the video until it got cut off in mid sentence :>(

No rest here. Try this one:

10 rounds for time:

Hang Clean x 5 (60kg)
Burpees x 10

37/M/182
16:16

Awesome read. Crossfit is a slippery slope I find myself agreeing with CCT Joey, more and more every day.

While radical Islam is the greatest threat to our way of life, the U.S. must stay out of the domestic political scene in Iran. Any U.S. support (overt or covert) of the anti-Ahmadinejad/Khahemeni government would only undermine the resistance and legitimize government suppression of the people. It is up to the Iranian people to force change in their own government. Hopefully, with things unstable on the domestic homefront, Iran will have to make cutbacks in its involvement in Iraq.
I am, however, for military action against Iran to take out its nuclear program. A nuclear Iran is a big step closer to Armageddon. "Mutually assured destruction" is only a nuclear deterrent if both sides are relatively sane with a similar belief structure. I won't say which side is insane, but it's a 4-letter word that happens to rhyme with Koran.

CPT Adam Snyder
Scout Platoon Leader
Tiger Force, 1-327th IN

A little story for those who have time to kill...

On father's day I answered a Craigslist ad where someone was offering $50 for an hour's help moving. I jumped at the opportunity to get a great workout while adding some "ching-ching!" to the motorcycle fund that has yet to meet official better half approval. I was thrilled to arrive and find out that 1)they saved all the heavy stuff for me since I was getting paid to help, 2)they lived on the second floor, and 3)nobody else answered the ad! So, needless to say, I jumped in CF style, got paid $50 to get a great WOD, and quickly obtained the nickname "the Beast" by the people I was helping.

The whole point to the story? They had no idea what a REAL "beast" is! Everytime I see pictures and videos from the CF seminars and certs I'm just blown away by the number of "monsters" there are in the CF community. I'm afraid I will be SO out of place when I finally get to go to a cert, LOL.

Also, I got a good laugh at the article Chris posted (#2). There's a woman at my gym that talks on her cell phone the entire 45 minutes she's on the treadmill. I always thought that was strange, I see that I'm wrong and that I'm the one who's strange. Thank goodness some things never change! :-)

Anyhow, today 5-5-5-3-3-3-3 Front Squat. Focus was on form and I'm happy to say that I finally got parallel or below on every rep!

WU

Front Squat
5x45
5x65
5x85
3x85
3x95
3x95
3x105

1mi TM
20x21" box jumps
50xab machine crunches @ 90# (felt a little like a waste of time but CinVT=old dog)

3rd day of IF as well, still playing around with it but I'm feeling incredible!

CinVT

Since summer vacation started I have had to read the articles and the comments and mull over them for a couple days. This article I won't have to mull over. Like Joey said, this should be no surprise to anyone that it is going on. It should also be no surprise that mini forms of this are happening all over Central Asia and Asia.

Americans really seem to not like to read the world news (and you can't just read one source) and only watch entertainment news and then stand in agahst when something that has been building for years finally spills over and effects us.

Fixing Iraq before we go to Iran is a perfectionist attitude. What about fixing Afghanistan? Do you really think that it is possible to ever fix that entire area? It would be interesting to hear some new thoughts on solutions to the global impact that entire area is having.

Kate

I wouldn't take anything Amir Taheri says with a grain of salt. The guy has been repeatedly wrong regarding everything related to our disasterous adventure in Iraq. I know that Glassman and CrossFit crew are very supportive of the military, but they are making a big mistake in blindly supporting the current Administration's silly foreign policy that will ultimately weaken our country.

What do I mean by silly? Let's see. The current foreign policy is based on fantasy, and to a great extent, supports a niche pro-Israeli and pro-Gulf state agenda in the Middle East. It has very little to do with fighting Islamic Terroism.

Over here, I know there is a tendancy to put all the Muslim world in one basket and paint the current struggle against a monolithic "Islamic fascism". But this has no basis in reality, as anyone who has actually been overseas or has studied these regions can tell you. For example, the main supporters of militant non-state actors (aka terrorists) in the Islamic world has been Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and to a lesser extent, Iran. In addition, many militant Islamic groups receive much support from the Egyptian popultation, if not the Egyptian state. Iraq, even under Saddam, had very little relation to terrorism, relative to these other states. Even now in Iraq, our own military officials tell us that the majority of the most violent militants caught in Iraq are Saudi and Egyptian citizens who have come there to wage jihad. Moreover, every commander in Afghanistan will tell you that the pro-Taliban militants receive training and a safe haven in areas of Pakistan controlled by their government, not the so-called "wild ungovernable" areas claimed by the Pakistani government.

As a result, if we are really serious about fighting Islamic militancy and Jihadism, we should be focused on Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Instead, Bush and Cheney go around kissing the Saudi royal family's a$$ and calling Pakistan one of our "greatest allies". Now, we may have good practical reasons for doing this, but these reasons certainly undermine our "war on terror" rhetoric. The rest of the Muslim world sees our hypocracy in regards to this and dismisses, with great cynicism, any of our claims to building democracy, fostering modernity, blah, blah, blah as pure rhetoric.

People, like Amir Taheri, who have pushed this crazy agenda, even in the face of an incredible amount of evidence to the contrary, are still writing idiotic editorial articles pushing us to do even crazier things. One would think that being utterly wrong over the last 5 years on this front would discredit a writer from being taken seriously.

Also, the "fight them there so we don't fight them here" doctrine by Bush is TOTALLY absurd. All the evidence we have regarding the bad guys that perpetrated 9/11, the bombing of the Cole, the embassy bombings in Africa, etc. tell us that they are in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. The idea that we should go to Iran or Iraq instead makes no sense whatsoever. Again, the Muslim world sees this as massive hypocracy on our part, and I'm not sure I blame them. That's why they don't believe us when we say our agenda is to promote democracy or western style liberalism, and that's why they propose all kinds of conspiracy theories to explain our wacky actions.

WILL G #22,
I will let you and the other rest day patrons in on a secret. It is not you fault you are finding that you agree with me more and more.

I am actually a creation of the Glassman's. I am not real, like you.

The took the specs of your average male in everyway (accept where it counts 'wink' wink' 'nudge' 'nudge')and created a

CrossFit-Cyborg-Type-Joey aka "C.C.T.JOEY" aka "CCTJOEY".

They further strapped a loud yap hole on the head, removed the sympathy generators (Lauren's idea btw)that came standard and replaced it with a 'will' modual of a retarded english bulldog in heat (Coach always had a weird sense of humor).

Brian Mulvaney further wired my 'brain' to accept no input unless it met criteria set forth by Jeff Glassman, though most of that I would never be able comprehend with my brain (also donated by the retarded english bulldog). In my rather large nose they crammed the experience of Barry Cooper to help me seek out pinkos of all kinds. In place of my tonsels, they bolted in a rapid fire BS disgronifier based off of Dale Saran with nitro powered talk back fast capability to redirect attention and create distraction.

In order to be accepted by society they used a personality module based of Appolloswabbie, that unfortunately has a weak power source.

To further insure that I would do no harm to and have RESPEK for animals, children, spazzos, mingas, lezzers, fatty-boombahs, or even gaylords, Coach bolted the essence of Kate (my rather sizable and distinguished man boobs) to ensure I would stay out of prison.

They then sent me off to the military knowing I would comeback home someday. The CCT thing was an accident that has to do with a midget, a firetruck, and a 5lb bucket of mayonaise. I doubt you would believe me if I told you the whole story, so we will leave it there.

After a few years of running around aimlessly and destroying my forearms with Kettlebells, I stumbled home.

The end.

CCTJOEY wrote: "Anything that resembles 'PEACE' is an illusion created by the threat of violence of the free towards the thugs who would rule us all with threat of death."

My Aunt lived for 30 years in various parts of Central America, while her husband grew bananas for the North American market. Who the "thugs" are who "would rule us all with threat of death" depends on where you live. Lots of hard-#ss military goons oppressed (and sometimes killed) their workers ... but they weren't funded or trained by "Islamo-Fascists" or the "Far Left."

They were funded by who we'd call the "good guys." Just like good CrossFit training, that observation was empirical, measurable, and unfortunately repeatable.

When we impose our own interests on other nations, the line between "good guy" and "bad guy" has been known to blur. I've a friend who was a helicopter gunner in VietNam. Then worked in Iran as an advisor to the Shah's military just before the revolution.

He gets rather, er, *expressive* about how his government's support of the Shah created the dynamics for Khomenie's revolution. About what it was like to try to escape Iran, where he saw Shah supporters being literally torn apart in the street ... in reaction to the decades of BRUTAL repression that the Shah'd inflicted on his own people. With US and other Western powers' help.

Empirical. Observable. Repeatable.

We have to face that we are not always the "good guys." Sometimes, but not always. That our actions in defence of "Liberty" are often experienced as the opposite ... because they *are* the opposite.

Sometimes, we support the "thugs who would rule us all by threat of death." And we should bloody stop.

I have no problem with the American people supporting revolution in Iran; the American government is another issue entirely. Have we not learned anything from 40+ years of middle eastern misadventures?
At least for CCT Joey going to war is not something someone elses kids will be doing. I doubt we would see that same level of commitment from many of the other hawks on here.

"Never trouble another for what you can do for yourself."

"[We would be] guilty of great [error] in [our] conduct toward other nations
[if we endeavored] to force liberty on [our] neighbors in [our] own
form."

"Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none"

Thomas Jefferson

#26, CF_mg,

"What do I mean by silly? Let's see. The current foreign policy is based on fantasy, and to a great extent, supports a niche pro-Israeli and pro-Gulf state agenda in the Middle East."

I guess you see your form of argument (simply asserting that our policies are based on "fantasy") as serious?

"For example, the main supporters of militant non-state actors (aka terrorists) in the Islamic world has been Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and to a lesser extent, Iran."

Assuming, for the sake of argument, that you are correct, do you see anything wrong with our bombing Iran's only gasoline refinery?

hahahahaha

Chris #2

Sadly, that sounds like it was pulled straight from the book I used to study for my CPT exam! I'm a new trainer and am already getting comments from 'veteran' trainers at my gym regarding the 'high intensity' training I do. We recently attended a training session for these new HR monitors the gym will be selling. When the instructor told us we should keep our clients in the low-moderate range for most of the workout, I got nudged from another trainer saying 'see'. lol

Completely off subject, but this place is full of smart people so what the heck...the hard drive on my ibook crapped out yesterday. I went and bought a new macbook, hooked up the cables which should have let me see my ibook hard drive so i could copy the files over. unfortunately that didn't work. Anything else I can do to retrieve my old files? oh and lesson learned, next purchase is an external hard drive...
thanks :-)

"Elizabeth"
subbed 3x bar dips for ring dips
cleans were hang cleans (approx. half squat)
Time = 9:44

Snatch
1-1-1-1-1-1-1
115x4 sets of 1
125x3 sets of 1
focus on form

I was watching 300 last night, and decided I really need to try the "300" workout the guys in the movie had to do at the end of their training. I'll post my results when I work up the nerve to do it.

#2 Chris

While the FITT principles, especially things such as the talk test, would seem laughable to any crossfitter. It is because they are aimed at a different crowd. People who participate in Cross Fit may need motivation to finish "Linda" or one of the other girls. Meanwhile, the majority of people who hear about FITT from their local gym's trainer need motivation to get off the couch. Many people would never exercise EVER if they had to work out as hard as Coach tells us too. If they are exercising - even under the constraints of the talk test - it is better than not exercising at all. Personally, I love Cross Fit, but as an undergrad student in kinesiology, I also hear about the huge populations of people who wouldn't exercise even if you paid them.

I started The Black Swan yesterday. It was introduced to me on a rest day, and is an excellent example of how CF can expand one's intellectual as well as fitness horizons. If you're not thinking out of the box, you're not thinking. Thanks, Lauren and Coach!

#3 Chris: Target heart rates and the percentage charts one sees in gyms are pure rubbish. The charts subtract the exerciser's age from 220 to establish a max HR. This is a standardized concept that has no relationship to a particular person's max HR. Gina Kolata's book, "Ultimate Fitness" has some useful information on the origins of the 220 minus your age formula. When I was 47 I maxed at 193 in a stress test on a treadmill as a personal example. Additionally, there are variations in a person's max at different modalities; one can max higher on the treadmill than on a bike or in the pool, but a highly trained swimmer may not max as high on a treadmill. CF does not appear to give a hoot about heart rates, and I've never seen a demo video with a CFer wearing a heart rate monitor. IMO CF is about pushing your limits by performance based yardsticks rather than finding one's supposed limits with an electronic gizmo strapped to your chest.

Aaron (Comment #11) wrote:

"I think a better principle would be to fight them neither here nor there. If the Iranian people are unhappy with their government, then they can do something about it. It is not our business."

I am certainly glad the French didn't follow that principle back in 1776.

Oh my God, I'm dying! Or at least I should be according to most of the trainers. When I do a CrossFit style workout my heartrate stays up in the 85% to 95% range of my max. Most trainers - and doctors - would tell me that maintaining that intensity could kill me. It hasn't yet although it frequently feels like it will. I've had doctors and trainers tell me that at my age, 51, I need to slow down. Heck, after seeing the numbers posted by a lot of the people after a WOD I feel like I'm already too slow. I have a resting heart rate of 47 bpm so I guess my heart is still good. Oh, by the way, when I do a traditional workout, every once in a great while just to remember what it feels like or I feel like taking it easy, my heart rate never even approaches what it does with a CF WOD.

Man, those videos are good.

CFmg
Since Taheri is not to be believed, is he lying about the imprisonments and hangings in Iran? You seem to be advocating invasions of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. You wanna hang your hat on that? You think we have troubles now?

"But this has no basis in reality, as anyone who has actually been overseas or has studied these regions can tell you."

Really? Anyone? Is that group all of one accord with no dissenting view? That's solid analysis. That smug "I'm a studied internationalist" mask you're wearing doesn't change the fact that our government has been kissing Saudi arse looooong before Bush/Cheney. I know that for your purposes, history began with the Bush Administration, but let's try to stay lucid here.

"Blowback is a bitch."

Yeah, no kidding. Easy to say with the benefit of hindsight. Tell me, what would you have done 30 years ago with Saddam Hussein? Wait a second. Don't use any information we've learned in the last 30 years. That would be intellectually dishonest and, well, we just can't have that here. I can appreciate these forays into perfect-world scenarios that Bushhaters love to play, but Utopianism is not just around the corner. In fact, it should have been put down with Communism, but like that favorite baby blanket, some just can't let go...

"I am certainly glad the French didn't follow that principle back in 1776."

Tim, you should know by now, that only a selective use of historical narratives is permitted. The American Revolution is passe' and indicative of nothing. Please refrain from using it out of context. By the way, so am I...

Hari,

You write:

"I guess you see your form of argument (simply asserting that our policies are based on "fantasy") as serious?"

It's about as serious as one can be in a message board comment. What's Taheri's excuse for his hack-job opinion pieces? The vast majority of the experts in both Near Eastern studies and in International Relations departments of our most prestigious universities thought that the Iraq intervention would be a serious mistake, irrespective of their liberal or conservative leanings. The major support came from neo-con pundits like Taheri and other right wing think tanks, most of whom actually have very little regional know-how and don't even understand any of the regional languages.

"Assuming, for the sake of argument, that you are correct, do you see anything wrong with our bombing Iran's only gasoline refinery?"

Yes. I see a lot wrong with that. It's not clear that this would do any damage to the regime, but it would certainly bring much hardship to the Iranian people. It would do much damage, if that's possible, to our claim of wanting to win "hearts and minds".

Also, if you look around the world, refinery capacity is highly constrained. If you take out Iranian refineries, they will have to import their refined end products. Thus, this will most definitely lead to a dramatic increase in gasoline, jet fuel, and diesel given the extreme capacity constraints in refining already. Given the problems our economy is having absorbing this runaway credit problem with mortgages, even higher gasoline prices at this point would not be a good thing.

Moreover, it would give Iran a lot more reason to be even more active in destabilizing both Iraq and Afghanistan -- something they can easily do.

Altogether, Taheri's suggestions are idiotic and not well thought out, like most of the junk he has written.

37yoM/5'8"/148lbs

I'm on 5/2 schedule, so no rest today.

KB day - all w/ 1 pood KB
2 TGU ea. arm
20 swings
5 windmills ea. arm
20 swings
5 snatch ea. arm
20 swings
5 C&J ea. arm
20 swings

11:39

The article mentions the stoning of people. When I lived in Dubai in the United Arab Emerites, when someone was sentenced to stoning, they weren't kidding. Usally they had a dump truck loaded with rocks waiting out back of the court room. They would lead the guilty out back, tie them to a pole, then have the dump truck back up and dump the stones on them. Must be a horrible way to die.

#11
So, are you suggesting that America become Isolationists? Because, you know, that has worked so well for us in the past.

Question for the CF community:

I am going to do FGB today as I didn't get a chance to workout yesterday and I feel in the mood to be punished. I do not have access to a rowing machine however and was wondering if anyone out there has a suitable sub that they use (I will be working out at home)? I was thinking of just doing a 1 minute sprint instead although that will make it difficult to track my progress (calories)...any suggestions?

#47 Rick

How about Burpees. I always find that as a good sub in FGB when I don't have a rower.

CCTJOEY wrote: "Anything that resembles 'PEACE' is an illusion created by the threat of violence of the free towards the thugs who would rule us all with threat of death."

Looks like you're saying there's no such thing as peace. Let's try on a scenario here to help me understand. So we got this group of peaceful, freedom-loving people. They just want to go about their happy, productive lives in peace. But their society is constantly threatened by murderous thugs. And they must constantly be on guard and defending themselves.

So, in that state of constant guardedness, is peace absent? Is it present as an illusion? If the thugs left them alone for awhile, would there be peace? What if they defeated all the thugs, and no one made an threats - would they then have peace?

I'm addressing the generalization that peace is an illusion (paraphrased slightly from your statement). I disagree; peace is real in my life, and a real possibility even where it is threatened.

Regarding the article posted today, it's a terrible situation for the citizens over there in Iran. I had no idea it was so bad. Makes me extremely grateful to be blessed with the circumstances that I am, but I wish I knew how I could best help bring the peace I experience in my life to the parts of the world where peace and freedom are threatened or absent.

Mike,
All I am saying is that Peace does not just 'break out'. There are those that confrontation for various reasons and sooner or later they will pass by. If they believe that you are not worth the effort, they will keep on trucking until you let your guard down.

30/m/190

Snatch 7 x 1

105
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135

Amen to that, TomF.

Yes, the current Iranian regime are muderous thugs. But guess what? So was the previous one -- the one run by the Shah, who we (the U.S.) not only supported with enormous amounts of treasure and weaponry, we installed him by directly sponsoring and assisting the overthrow of the democratically elected leader of Iran in 1954 (he wanted Iranians to get a bigger cut of their oil franchise money). The same Iranians who are oppressed now by 'them' were oppressed before by 'us,' and probably still would be (see, e.g., Arabia, Saudi) if our friends with the cheap oil were still in power there.

We need to stop stomping around the world trying to impose our will. It's been a disaster for every nation that has tried it throughout history. Observable. Measurable. And, unfortunately, Repeatable.

#47 Rick

Burpees or Kettlebell (dumbell) swings.

rest day, schmest day. 4k, lots of hills in 100 degree weather here in DC. 23:50.

QUESTION ALERT- not to interrupt the rest day mental smoking going on- but i want to be able to do an observable and correct MU by the new year. What exercises other than the MU itself are good for building the necessary strength?

I understand form is key, i have read the FAQ, and I am a "very" in shape person by normal standards -run, swim, lifting, cals, etc.- but apparently severely lacking in gymnastic strength. Any advice?

#48 Rick,

I sub burpee pullups for rowing in FGB, since it mimicks the rowing motion somewhat. Skipping the pushup in the burpee-pullup might be a closer analogue to the motion, but I'd need to do a FGB with a rower for comparison to figure out which gives a more representative score in the end.

#50 Mike-
With all due respect, I can not imagine the world that you live in. Either you have pretty big blinders on or you live in an utopia that no one else has discovered.

If the 'Peace Loving' people of that society really did love peace, than they would never guard themselves from the thugs. They would make tea and cookies for them and use peaceful means to try and change the thugs way of thinking.

Kate

#45, CF_mg,

You write that your declaration that US foreign policy is based on fantasy (your comment # 28) is "about as serious as one can be in a message board comment."

And you conclude, "Altogether, Taheri's suggestions are idiotic and not well thought out, like most of the junk he has written."

What is it about the message board forum that enables you to hold yourself to significantly lower standards of reasoning than that which you hold an opinion piece in the Wall Street Journal?

Also, can you elaborate on this point:

"Also, if you look around the world, refinery capacity is highly constrained. If you take out Iranian refineries, they will have to import their refined end products. Thus, this will most definitely lead to a dramatic increase in gasoline, jet fuel, and diesel given the extreme capacity constraints in refining already. Given the problems our economy is having absorbing this runaway credit problem with mortgages, even higher gasoline prices at this point would not be a good thing."

It seems to me that forcing the Iranians to import gasoline would hurt Iran (a sponsor of terrorism, as you write in your comment #28) far more than it hurts us. Also, what makes you think we would allow refined gasoline to flow into Iran following an attack?

If only those pinko liberal proffesors,students and unionists would just "stay out of the streets and stop acting like weirdos at protests" they wouldn't need to be imprisoned, hung, stoned.

“To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.”
-Abraham Lincoln

Rob,

Thats easy, really. I dont have rely on the last 30 years to figure out what works, because what works is what has worked for the previous 200 years of American foreign policy, and was advocated by the most awesome GW himself. Avoid foreign entanglements.

Arm to the teeth, make friends, engage in fully reciprocal free trade, and only jump into wars with a full declaration of war by congress, with a mission that is clearly defined, so that when it is complete, we return home. WWII is a great example of a good war. Korea, VN, Iraq, etc are not.

Lets not forget that we created Hussein because we messed up Iran, and needed another threat, so in fact, we created both of these Frankenstein's monsters.

30 years ago, Id have left Hussein alone, in fact, Id have left the whole damn region alone, short of dealing with whoever gave me the best deal on oil, without regard to how they ran their country. I dont need 30 years of hindsight to figure out that the Middle East is a slag pit. the preceding 2000 years of history show that pretty clearly.

#5 Joey -- that's the most reasonable and succinct thing I've ever read from you, and for once I agree with you completely. Diplomacy and negotiation in good faith are only effective inasmuch as the adversary is acting in good faith. When that thin veneer of civilization dissolves, humans are no better behaved than animals and no more trustworthy. (Often less, in fact.)

It does not strengthen your position to declare that those who support your service and your country should pipe down, as you did in your interview. That neo-fascist sort of statement is more in line with the hard-line Iranian madmen than it is in line with the ideals of this country. Our freedom is worth fighting for, not against, and the oppression of the Iranian citizens under a theocracy is evidence of why.

Thank you for your service to our country.

"The vast majority of the experts in both Near Eastern studies and in International Relations departments of our most prestigious universities thought that the Iraq intervention would be a serious mistake, irrespective of their liberal or conservative leanings."

OK, starting to get nonsensical. You said in an earlier post that "all experts agree" but now it's the "vast majority". We shouldn't be moving goalposts around. At our most "prestigious universities", liberals outnumber conservatives up to 15 to 1 depending on the school, leading to extreme narrowband, lockstep analysis which not surprisingly corresponds to the liberal worldview. Let's not look to academia for critical thinking until it has been purged of 60s-era holdovers longing for the days of free love and sit-ins.

"The major support came from neo-con pundits like Taheri and other right wing think tanks, most of whom actually have very little regional know-how and don't even understand any of the regional languages."

Ahhh, the N-word. Is that still politically correct to say? And why that word and not others? An awful lot of absolutes here from someone with a nuanced view of things. So, rightwing thinktanks don't have anyone on staff that understands Middle Eastern languages? Or understands them the way liberal pundits do?

"We need to stop stomping around the world trying to impose our will. It's been a disaster for every nation that has tried it throughout history. Observable. Measurable. And, unfortunately, Repeatable."

Absolutely right. Let's withdraw from all over the world and bring our troops home to guard our borders. Then, when Europe is destroyed (since they depend on us for defense) and massive worldwide poverty replaces the vacuum, and people of all nations are pleading with us... "Where are the Americans and why won't they help us?".... maybe then we'll act? We can't help in Darfur as it is right now (actually, we're not allowed per the UN) and that's just one region. What do we do when it's everywhere?

Behold the genius of George Orwell:

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Heh. How bout this one:

"Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear."

"Arm to the teeth, make friends, engage in fully reciprocal free trade, and only jump into wars with a full declaration of war by congress, with a mission that is clearly defined, so that when it is complete, we return home. WWII is a great example of a good war. Korea, VN, Iraq, etc are not."

I see, Duane, so we wait until the enemy is fully entrenched so as to ensure a big War with Capital Letters with heavy casualties on all sides. You apparently don't believe in helping our friends or protecting our interests. I guess if that works for you... Apparently, a "good war" is one where we're backed into a corner so completely we have nowhere to turn and have to use absolutely all resources to turn the tide back. Fighting on multiple fronts and multiple hemispheres also a plus.
Nice aside with the "full" declaration by Congress as opposed to what you see as the, uh, "partial" declaration that our President got. "We give you permission to declare war, but not before asking us again... later." Solid.

Hari,

You write:

"It seems to me that forcing the Iranians to import gasoline would hurt Iran (a sponsor of terrorism, as you write in your comment #28) far more than it hurts us. Also, what makes you think we would allow refined gasoline to flow into Iran following an attack?"

It would hurt Iran, but the pain would be felt by its people in the form of much higher prices for refined goods, not really by the regime. In my opinion, its effect is questionable given that we have had very restrictive sanctions against Iran for the last 25 years or so that has hardly made a dent on the regime's ability to keep power. (Also, look at the Saddam regime's resilience in the face of economic hardship.) The result of attacking Iran's refineries would only be to increase the hardship of the Iranian people, something Taheri describes correctly. So, if our supposed aim is to help the Iranian people, attacking the refinery would be very low on the list.

Your 2nd point about whether or not we would "allow" refined product to enter Iran is absurd. Given our total inability to keep Saudi suicide bombers and Syrian weapons out of Iraq in a country where we have over 125k soldiers on the ground, I would not hold my breath that we would be successful at keeping refined end-products out of Iran. This is just more wishful thinking from neo-con wingnuts.

Hari,

Also, attacking the refinery would also result in pain here at home in the form of much higher prices. Given the extremely tight refining capacity worldwide, any disturbance to supply on the margin will result in far higher prices. It's like when a city that goes from 94% apartment vacancy to 97% results in a doubling of rents, which is often the case in tight supply situations. Net-net, the US consumer could suffer far more dollar-wise than the typical Iranian consumer, as our per-capita consumption of refined end-product is about 15x what it is for Iranians.

JP, the people you are talking about are not pinkos. Pinkos only protest where their is no threat against them, but act like they are oppressed. My take was on the socialist/communist (International A.N.S.W.E.R, Code Pink, etc.) backed marches that form the crux of the left's group-think in the streets hear in the U.S.. You know, the types that earlier this year burned Soldiers' effegies and spray painted the steps of the Capital. The ones who use replicas of Soldiers' names and headstones to make a point without permission of the families

The protests in Venezuala or Iran are definately not Pinkos as they ARE NOT COMMUNIST SYMPOTHIZERS. Sorry my explaination of Pinkos did not make it onto the interview. Tony B. would probably furnish it if you asked repeatedly.

Feel free to revise and extend.

Tim T- "It does not strengthen your position to declare that those who support your service and your country should pipe down, as you did in your interview. That neo-fascist sort of statement is more in line with the hard-line Iranian madmen than it is in line with the ideals of this country. Our freedom is worth fighting for, not against, and the oppression of the Iranian citizens under a theocracy is evidence of why."

I do not know what you are talking about. I don't remember making a neo-fascist statement. My point was about the Pinkos in the street acting like idiots.

What are you refering to??

Rob #62

War always involves casualties on both sides. The difference is that by waiting for there to be a very clearly definable enemy, that supports a full declaration of war, you get benefits.

First, you dont MAKE as many enemies, because you arent meddling in the affairs of other nations. Every time you pick a side, you piss someone off.

Second, you dont have to maintain a vast network of foreign bases, which is a huge cost savings. Defense is much cheaper than asserting our will, in fact, its pretty much a foregone conclusion that we wont be physically invaded by a large conventional force ever again, since the advent of the ICBM and the creation of the policy of Mutual Assured Destruction.

Third, that savings gets reinvested in your economic infrastructure, more money for bridges, education, R&D, etc. We have spent arguably a trillion dollars to protect the oil supply, but we spend less than a billion dollars a year researching alternative technologies to get us away from oil, not smart.

Your argument really has the following assumption in it. 'How do we police the world'?

My answer is, dont. The world got alog just fine before we came along. We serve the world best by serving as a shining beacon of what works. If we want to be kind, then we can air drop a couple of hundred thousand surplus m1s to democratically inclined insurgents in Nicaragua or afganistan, but the key is to let them fight it out themselves. Not all cultures are ready for democracy. Hell, it took thousands of years for historically european cultures to be ready for it.

Lets not kid ourselves, we were not under direct physical threat during even WWI or WWII, but it became clear that if we didnt get involved, that the entire world might slip into fascism or in the case of WWI, revert to greater monarchism. That's a situation worth getting involved in.

We arent dealing with that here.

Tim T- also my point was that those people DO NOT support our service or our country. That was my point. Sorry you missed it.

If you feel personally slighted, again not my problem, either rewatch the interview or quit hanging around idiot pinkos protesting in our streets, who are PURPOSELY trying to undermine our government and military.

If this does not apply to you, then you have your feathers in a ruffle from a misunderstanding on your part. No need to appologize, as I know I bring out strong opinions in others. Being so strikingly handsome does not help either ;)

Thank you for your support. It does make a difference.

#35:
Regarding the old hard drive, you could try to remove the hard drive and hook it up as a slave drive to a destop computer.

If the HD is what failed on your old computer, you have problems.
Go see the Genius Desk at a Mac store or Call Tech Support using your new Mac's service plan.

#63, CF_mg,

"This is just more wishful thinking from neo-con wingnuts."

Bringing in refined gasoline is not quite as simple smuggling people or weapons.

Do you think Kennedy behaved like a "neo-con wingnut" when he blockaded Cuba?

As promised this wasn't going to be a rest day at all! A guy I know teaches a class of his own called "Hardcore" that he've sold to the biggest commercial/mainstream gym-chain here in Denmark. He invited me to check it out today. I thought, "well, it's a mainstream gym - how hard can it be?". I got my ass kicked! An hour of intense kettlebell moves (thrusters, swings, TGUs, frontsquats etc.) combined with tug-of-war and stuff like that. It was very cool and very Crossfit-alike, and I see it as a MAJOR improvement in the work of getting people to actually TRAIN when they're in the gym. And I REALLY hope that Coach is going to be kind tomorrow, cause I'm really wasted!

Duane#67: "The world got alog just fine before we came along."

Really?

"Lets not kid ourselves, we were not under direct physical threat during even WWI or WWII, but it became clear that if we didnt get involved, that the entire world might slip into fascism or in the case of WWI, revert to greater monarchism. That's a situation worth getting involved in.

We arent dealing with that here."

You got that right, 19 MEN on 4 unarmed planes took out more Americans in a few hours than a full day suprise attack by the Japanese Navy. We are dealing with something that is quite a bit more incidious.

Not only are the cockroaches in our apartment, but they are in all of the apartments and some of the tenants are feeding them. I see know reason to wait to call the exterminator or bother to call a tenant council meeting anymore.

Joey, your very existence is a "neofascist" statement to some. It's the reason you must be silenced so that your "extreme" ideas do not "poison" the national dialogue. It's the reason the Fairness Doctrine must be brought back to balance talk radio. Seriously, man, you know this stuff already.

Welcome aboard Rob. I don't recall seeing you until recently.

So Joey,

I can believe the very same thing as a protester in Venezeula, yet because I've the misfortune to live where I won't be blasted with water cannon, that opinion makes me a "pinko?"

What if I'd be willing to be blasted with water cannon?

I agree that people need to take responsibility for their beliefs, and be willing to pay personally for them. But by accident of geography, I didn't have that privilege when it came to Apartheid in South Africa, or the Disappeared in Argentina, or the Gulag in the former USSR.

Accidents of geography don't necessarily make someone into a wuss. Just an unwillingness to pay for what they believe.

Tom F, Are you a communist sympathizer? If so you are a pinko. If not, then you are not. Simple as that.

Are you out protesting the military, GWOT, and the current administration? Doesn't sound like you are, so what are you talking about?

I am thinking you are taking offense where none is given.

OK, no dumb protests. As we read in the article today, I don't think we have to worry about that. Can you enforce 'dumb?' No. Do 'dumb' protests bring effective change? No.

Anyway, in a globalized world, I don't think an isolationist policy is valid. What once was possible in Washington's time only bites us in the butt today. Inaction can have the same consequences, or worse, as action. As mentioned above, think about Darfur or all of the African conflicts that have been largely overlooked by the U.S. for the past decade or whatever.

That said, Ahmadinejad's rule depends on "claiming that the Islamic Republic is under threat from internal and external foes." This is an age-old trick that many countries have used to mobilize their populace for war. People don't like war, but when there's a threat - real or not - they accept.
Hitler, the Soviets, and the U.S. war on Communism all fit the bill I believe.

So, we can't afford to put wind in Ahmadinejad's sails by making that external conflict real. We also can't do nothing, because ya know, people are losing education, getting arrested, beaten, killed on the whim of arbitrary rule.

The Iranian people don't have the best chance of effecting change through their own government because the whole system is rigged. I won't go through all the details, mostly because I'm not an expert at all and probably getting it half wrong, but the 'Supreme Leader' picks a panel who then selects who's eligible for congress, who gets on the judiciary, etc. Then supposedly the other institutions "check" the Supreme Leader. Except they are all his cronies in the first place. It's a big crock.

So fuel the revolution without giving ammunition to the arbitrary rulers. Tricky. I'll try to look for some proposed solution out there later.

Here's an Iranian-American's blog who tends write on stuff like the Mid East, although all his archives seem to be down or something. (w/f/s)

http://thedailybackground.com/devpool/

Here's a sweet article on snatch and clean mechanics that I got off of one of my other favorite blogs, Straight to the Bar (both w/f/s):

http://www.coachesinfo.com/article/?id=237#2

For Tom F. and others who are unsure if you are indeed a PINKO.

From Wikipedia:
Pinko

Pinko is a derogatory term for a person sympathetic to a Communist Party, but not necessarily a communist.

History
The word pinko was coined by Time magazine in 1926 as a variant on the noun and adjective pink, which had been used along with parlor pink since the beginning of the 20th century to refer to those of leftish sympathies, usually with an implication of effeteness.[1] In the 1920s, for example, a Wall Street Journal editorial described supporters of the progressive Robert La Follette as “visionaries, ne’er do wells, parlor pinks, reds, hyphenates [Americans with divided allegiance], soft handed agriculturalists and working men who have never seen a shovel.”[2]

Pinko and pink were widely used during the Cold War to designate those accused of supporting the Soviet Union, including many of the supporters of Henry Wallace's 1948 presidential campaign with the Progressive Party. The word was predominantly used in the United States, where opposition to Communism grew strong among the population, especially during the era of the McCarthy hearings. It was also in common use in South Africa during the apartheid era. One of the most infamous uses of pink is a quotation attributed to Richard Nixon, talking in 1950 about Helen Gahagan Douglas: "She's pink down to her underwear!", referring to the fact that at the time, pink was the main color of women's undergarments. In his presidential campaigns, George Wallace often railed at "the left-wing pinko press" and at "pseudo-pinko-intellectuals."[3][4]

The word pinko likely has its origins in the relations between the colors white and red. Since pink is a lighter shade of red, the color most associated with communism, pink could be thought of as a "lighter form of communism" practiced by mere supporters of Marxism or socialism as opposed to card-carrying communists.

One of the most famous uses of the term in popular culture was the ironic use by Charlie Daniels in his breakthrough 1972 hit "Uneasy Rider." The dope-running hippie narrator is stuck with a flat tire in Jackson, Mississippi. Attempting to avoid a beatdown by the local rednecks, he attempts to deflect attention to one of the locals by accusing him of being "a friend of them long haired, hippy-type, pinko fags" sent by the FBI to infiltrate the Ku Klux Klan.

Thanks, Joey. CF x 3 wks and loving it! Also, as a native Californian, love that this bastion of commonsense libertarianism originates out of the liberal-engineered Utopia of Santa Cruz, CA! Hilarious...

By the way, loved the interview...

Others: You absolutely have the right to protest and have your voice heard. You do not have the right to misrepresent the facts and not have your snout swatted. Example: If you claim during said protest that your right to dissent is being taken away, you need to be told about your obvious disconnect. If you claim that the Amerikkkan Police State is on the way with requisite Concentration Camps, you deserve to have someone politely ask you to point one out. But do me a favor. Go to zombietime.com and take a look and what's being peddled at these protests and tell me these people do not wish this country ill. Tell me they aren't pushing lies at the children watching from the streetcorners. I hear a lot about the fearmongering from the Bush Admin. Well, what about the fearmongering from the "Bush=Hitler" crowd? We've heard this for SEVEN years! When is this supposed roundup gonna happen? Get on with it already....

Maybe I am taking offence where none's given. If so, sorry.

I do disagree strongly with the foreign policy that put brave people in danger in an ill-conceived GWOT. It makes me furious that dedicated and committed people are, in my view, dying for a ludicrously poor strategic cause. And one in which we see the irony of liberty being restricted at home (recently passed bill on warrantless surveillance - not tied to suspicion of terrorism) justified by wanting to promote liberty.

But no, I'm neither a communist or a sympathizer. Nor am I a dyed-in-the-wool libertarian capitalist. I'm a pretty hard-nosed liberal, who believes that we have responsibility for each other - not solely for ourselves. And that the rule of law is usually the best way to get there.

#78, Ben,

A nice job of arguing for and against every possible course of action or inaction. It seems that the only thing we can be sure of is that no matter what the US does, it will be wrong. After all, that's always the right answer in class, isn't it?

CCTJoey #73

Yeah, really. Im unsure how much time youve actually spent researching Al Qaeda, their methods and their people. I can tell you after putting a couple of hundred hours into it that they are VERY fortunate to have pulled 911 off. Their average operator is an embecile. In fact, the only way that it worked is that the average American has been conditioned to rely on systems and government for his protection, rather than automatically fighting back. I guarantee you that what they tried wouldnt have worked in Israel.

We can solve this problem in terms of a domestic terrorist threat like yesterday.

1. Withdraw from the Middle East
2. Put a 5 year moratorium on entry visas for
people from primarily Islamic nations. Redirect intel efforts to existing Islamic immigrants.
3. Take the 150k troops in Iraq, put them on our southern border, until a viable border security system can be built.
4. Drill Anwar and the Florida shelf, while putting 20B a year in alternative energy research.
5. Quit messing around in other peoples back yards because it makes us a few more pennies.

Unfortunately these things wont happen, because they dont serve the interests of those who either are in power, or fund those who are in power.

Instead, we allow our leaders to bankrupt our nation, devalue our currency, spy on our communications randomly without warrants, and every day take another big step towards corporate sponsored fascism.

all because we are afraid of cockroaches.

did wod as RX, best WOD the last couple of workouts

Duane writes: "Instead, we allow our leaders to bankrupt our nation, devalue our currency, spy on our communications randomly without warrants, and every day take another big step towards corporate sponsored fascism."

(Joey, I say we tap his phone. I'm sure I can get one of our evil corporate sponsors to cover the cost.)

Replace "Hooligans" with "Jews", "Prisons" with "Ghetto's", "Cultural Revolution" with "Ethnic Cleansing", and a few other interchangeable subjects & we've got Nazi Germany's behavior leading up to WWII...

Anyone who says our Gov't is being over-zealous in their harsh comments toward Iran clearly does not know what is happening over there. Whether or not it is our responsibility to initiate a pre-emptive strike???... I can't comment yet as this is a very debateable subject & I'm not sure where I stand yet. Good (but scary) article...

On a separate note - does anyone have any triathlon experience... and if so, any comments on how the crossfit regimen impacted their performance... and lastly, how you incorporated the crossfit WOD's into your tri-specific training? I've got T-minus 53 days to my first triathlon & I'd appreciate any training tips available.

Hari #85

Man, phone taps are like so 1985... The current domestic surveillance capacity includes...

The Fibbies can turn on my microphone on my phone remotely so they can hear me fart, or discuss my next big post on crossfit.

The has a room on ATTs main western communications hub, where they routinely snatch random HUGE chunks of traffic and analyze it for fun.

Total information awareness project is building datawarehouses of commercially available information, bank accounts, credit card transactions, neighbors names, family names, whatever they can gather... which will eventually be integrated with

SmartCam systems that can employ facial and number recognition systems (for license plate info), that currently run you against known warrants on a small scale, but can eventually be used to build tracking and backtracking systems.

The list goes on and on... Get with the program :)

Tom F et al.

Great and interesting points. I normally do not inject my 2 cents but I want to add something here and I hope I communicate it decently.

I think we all can agree some mistakes have been made. Some were based upon assumptions that proved invalid, say like WMD. But the resolution passed by our Congress puts WMD as a reason for use of force there were also several other key points (see http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021002-2.html for all the whereas)

But what do we want now? What is our strategic ojective? I believe it is a safe and secure Iraq.

This is important to our srategic interests.

But without pointing blame or anything else cool I will tell you that the point we miss the most in all of the Media and political pundits.

The Iraqi people are worth it.

I will say it again, the Iraqi people are worth the expense. I believe that Iraq will be a powerful and democratic nation and a powerful ally for us in the future. And we will look back and say we did some great things and not so great things but in the end we will see the fruits of our sacrifice and be proud or the accomplishment of both peoples.

I appreciate this venue and the debate of all in this forum.

luc

Duane,

This forum is to public. Just talk. We'll monitor you using the technology you described. Also, we may want some additional information on some of your credit card purchases. Never mind, we just got the tapes. Interesting. (Don't you know that company you're buying from is an official corporate fascist sponsor. How ironic.)

I'm so pleased you would even post this article about the white elephant in the room . . ie. the growing threat of Islam world wide. Nobody likes to talk about it and just hopes it will go away, but it won't. Any American who doesn't understand and believe that the ultimate goal of these people is to take over the world and impose this type of state needs to wake up.
I too approve of fighting this enemy in their home and yet I am more than discouraged by our country's tactics. Why are we policing these people. . . . this is a war. . . we should use military force. I wish Bush and the rest of us would turn off the lame stream media and their pathetic feelings and start defending our country from this evil empire of radical Islam. . . with immediate force . . . including Iran.

Hari,

What exactly did Ben say that you disagree with? Are you jumping on him because of his posts on previous rest days?

Is there a good solution to the Iran problem? The way I see it there is not. It is a classic Catch-22. Action on Iran is expensive and probably won't work and inaction is even worse. Am I a liberal because I see no good course of action? What is your plan? TLAM the refinery? Then what? The Iranians would all throw Ahmedinejad out of office and hand over the keys to their nuke plants?

Hari,

Clearly, you have mistaken my contempt for corporatism for a distaste for corporations and business and general, so let me clear that up.

Business is good. Making money is good. The Corporate entity is good, so long as it isnt allowed the rights of a natural person. The supreme court really screwed up there.

What isnt good is allowing Corporations to influence government policy, because what is good for Corporations isnt necessarily good for the population at large. In fact, what is good politically for corporations tends to be what is good for only about 5-10% of the population, at the expense of the rest of them.

Justin,

I agree with you in principal. The primary job of a military force is to kill people and break their stuff, period. We could accomplish our military objectives in the WOT by simply investing a relatively small amount of resources in gathering intelligence in the middle east, and when we find a target, bringing targeted overwhelming force to bear.

This is exactly what the Navy is for. In fact, the first real fleet we launched was in response to the first threat to our shipping from the Barbary Pirates, which were also technically attacking us on Jihadi concepts.

We identified the enemy, we attacked them, and we came home, no messing around holding hands or nation building. Good stuff.

Didn't want to get in the middle of this foreign policy discussion but I decided to go to the gym today and give muscle-ups another try. I just turned 42 on Sunday and I tried on Sunday to do my first attempted bar muscle-up. I managed a couple with a slight jump. But today I had an awakening and after performing another single I managed to string 7 together and then another 7 then 5 then 7 again and gave up while I was feeling stoked. They are not the best looking muscle ups because I tend to transition my left arm slightly prior to my right which is wierd since I am right handed but I am taking them and my days of 4xPull-up and Dips are over as a sub. Thanks CF for all you have done for me.

Modded "Diane"
21-15-9
DL 185#
DB Presses w/35#

11:15

Comment #88:

I couldn't agree more with that last paragraph. That is one of the driving forces behind my decison to serve our country.

#86 Travis from Reno,

Carey Kepler, owner/trainer, of CrossFit Central in Austin, TX. is an accomplished Triathlete. I'm sure she would be willing and able to answer any questions you might have.

http://careykepler.blogspot.com/
Contact: 512-296-4637 or crossfitcentral@gmail.com

Good Luck and keep us posted!

John West

JPW,

"What exactly did Ben say that you disagree with? Are you jumping on him because of his posts on previous rest days?"

I'm simply observing that he has framed the argument so that whatever we do, we're wrong. I think you're doing the same thing. Of course, there is no easy answer to the problem.

If we invade, that's bad. If they get nukes, that's bad. If we put economic pressure on them, that's bad. If we ignore them, that's bad.

There is no course of action or inaction that does not have adverse consequences.

We need to do or not do something.

I've already told you what I would do: knock out their single gasoline refinery. It's pretty hard to build nukes, when you can't drive.

#92, Duane,

Is your point that corporations should not have First Amendment Rights?

Nadia,

In regards to your concern regarding your Mac. There may be hope. First you can try a data recovery software (not sure of any particular brands, but I would try a few sharewares/demos from www.download.com). You may have to connect everything up, then search the "corrupted drive".

If this doesn't work, try googling data recovery for macintosh, and you should be able to find places that can fix it.

Disclaimer: Not political!

All,

I'll be sure to ask this again on a regular day, but after doing FGB today since I missed it last time, I thought I should inquire. We all love the videos Crossfit provides; watching machines like Rob and Brendan storm through a workout is truly amazing.

But I've noticed that at the end of each workout, they usually collapse to the floor, breathing hard, probably seeing little birdies floating around their head. And after doing FGB today, I was in the same boat ... laying on the ground dizzy, barely able to squeeze out a breath.

My question is: What are the health implications of suddenly stopping an intense workout like this? I have heard your body can go into shock. Has there been any Crossfit research on this topic? Thoughts from any Crossfit veterans?

Better yet, do most of you actually do a cool-down after an intense WOD? Thank you.

CCTJoey, you think you have a hard time with these moonbats? I'm a Marine Corps officer candidate at WILLIAMS COLLEGE, the #1 rated liberal arts school in the country. So not only to I have to deal with hundreds of "intellectual" morons, I have to deal with them at smell-distance.

On a more serious note, what's the record for Fran? I'm M/23/6'4"(1.94m)/207(93kg), and as soon as I can do all of the pullups without stopping I'm gonna see how close I get.

MGold,

Some have suggested a cool down, and your question would probably be better received in the message forum.

As for the videos, I doubt anyone is advocating stopping so suddenly, but sometimes that just happens. Personally, I plop down because I cant stand to move another muscle. Another great aspect of the videos is watching some of these Crossfit giants humbled by a workout that "looked so easy on paper".

And... if I CAN move after a WOD, I usually keep moving, and stretching.

#86, Travis: My tri experience is pre-CF. First, a few questions: what are the distances of your race? do you have any background in any of the 3 components of a tri? As a general proposition, doing CF WOD's will give you a sufficiently high fitness level to get you through a short distance tri without a lot of tri specific training, but if you're going to race olympic distances or longer, you'll need to devote a fair amount of time to swimming, biking and running. A few more tips: most newbies spend hours in the pool and forget that the race is in a lake or in the ocean. Practice swimming in open water and learn to sight navigate. If you can, have a swim coach check your stroke. Swimming is all about good techniques (sound familiar?). On the bike, get comfortable cycling in a crowd. Most short races either permit drafting or don't enforce the drafting rules, so you'll probably be in a crowd. If you're not used to being in a pack, it could freak you out. Lastly, practice running off the bike so you're used to running on fatigued legs. Bottom line: CF will get you through a short race nicely, but anything longer will require sport specific training. Look at it this way: if you wanted to lower your Fran time by 2 minutes, what would you do? A tri or lots of thrusters and pullups? Hope this helps. Good luck.

#92 Hari

Thats a simplificaton, but yes.

Protecting the rights of the individual is about minimizing concentrations of power.

What is more dangerous than big government is big government which is under the control of big business.

Giving the corporate entity the right of political speech creates a massive ability for corporations to influence policy in their favor.

Took yesterday off so did my snatches today...

65
75
85
95
115...got cocky here and almost split my skull
finished with two sets of 10 @ 65lbs...

Gonzo,

Thanks so much for your help! Just got back from the 'genius' bar, they told me nothing. They can see my hardrive but it freezes up when connected to a firewire, which is what I told them upon my arrival. I've called a data repair shop and their quote is $500-$2500! wide range there, hopefully closer to $500! I'll look for some data recovery software tonight when I get home. I really appreciate the help. :-)

Vacation workouts:
am: 35 min bike ride

pm: 4 rounds in 20 min of
1 min Airdyne (evil machine)
10L/10R kb swings
1 min Airdyne
10 double kb swings (1 poods)

skills practice
horrible double unders for 5 minutes
then 30 minutes 10,000 lbs worth of drop cleans, I need to get lower for the full squat
Left knee is aching a little bit now though.

96: John West & 103: john wopat -

Thanks for the advice and direction. I am starting with the Xterra Nevada tri which is a 750M swim, 32K mountain bike ride & 5K run. I'm not too worried about the swim (but will deffinitely practice open water swimming... I've heard bad stories about competitors hands being jammed where they shouldn't) or the run, but the ride is going to kill me as I'm not too good on the bike as of yet. I will keep on keepin on & will let everyone know how I fare. Thanks for the support.

#104, Duane,

"Protecting the rights of the individual is about minimizing concentrations of power."

Does that mean you are opposed to employees unionizing?

H U M B L E D!
41yo/4 165
Snatched today to make up for yesterday after swimming 15x100 alt strokes and speed kick
7 sets 1 R 155#
UGLY, UNCOORDINATED!
On 5th, couldn't get up from the squat!
Took a break and busted out the last 2 the nicest form of all~

Hari - #104

Unions are tough question. Ill answer it by saying that I am in favor of Unions so long as they are voluntary, run transparently, and dont get so powerful that they end up running the business out of business, or overstepping their mandate, which is negotiate terms of employment for their workers. Just as I would deny a corporation the rights of a natural person, I would deny them to unions as well.

Think of a properly run union as a check and balance on the power of the corporation to bend over their workers.

You know, this is an interesting topic. It really wasnt until the late 1800s that general business corporate charters were granted by and large. Prior to that, government only created corporate entities for large scale projects that either were inefficient for the government to do themselves, and so big that only a corporate entity would attract enough capital.

Hari,
The problem with schwacking the refinery would be that the Iranians would likely try very hard to take Basra since it sits near them, has a big refinery and the locals would likely let them in. I have heard that Basra effectively belongs to Iran anyway but I don't know if its true. I think the Brits have given the city back to the IA (maybe someone else knows that) and have their base away from town so it might be at risk for a surprise attack if the IA assigned there are in on it. In any case, that would be a big distraction for us that would have to be carefully managed to avoid all out war with Iran.

I think we should keep the refinery thing in our back pocket reserved only for if all out war is unavoidable. Meantime we should keep the press on for sanctions (just like we are doing). Russia seems to be flexing our way on that (there is news on that out today) so we have China as the only hold out. Eventually even they will realize that a nuclear Iran is dangerous to everybody. Sanctions have never really worked before, but we have never really had cooperation from Russia and China before. I also think Pres Bush should personally call Ahmadinejad every day to tell him a) what he has to do turn it all off and b) how much he would personally enjoy nuking Tehran into a glass parking lot if he points a nuke any direction that even looks like its towards Israel. I'm not a fan of refusing to talk to other nations especially if they are doing things we don't like.

We also need to invest serious money in developing alternate energy sources. The sun is going to shine, the wind is going to blow, the tides will come in and go out and the center of the earth is hot.

And yes the above is the "wrong" answer because it will almost certainly result in a big mess that people will complain about.

Got to agree w/ Duane on Big Business, the whole checks and balances system in our gorvernment doesn't really seen to "check" the corporate entity in our government.
A smart guy once told me "unfortunately, in goverment, if you want to know why some thing is the way it is...follow the $$$ trail." Hopefully he's wrong.

People have 1st amendment rights because they also have morals (most).....businesses...um..not so much.

by the way, reading this whole disscusion is kick *ss, normaly i skip this stuff, and compare my times. Seems to me the average crossfitter is no dumbass

we see the irony of liberty being restricted at home (recently passed bill on warrantless surveillance - not tied to suspicion of terrorism) justified by wanting to promote liberty.
Instead, we allow our leaders to bankrupt our nation, devalue our currency, spy on our communications randomly without warrants, and every day take another big step towards corporate sponsored fascism.

Duane, all of that domestic surveillance capacity you spoke of was born well before the Bush Administration. You're not going to draw a link between the two, are you?

"...because what is good for Corporations isnt necessarily good for the population at large."

...and what's good for corporations isn't necessarily bad for the population either. Your current flavor of brainwash has convinced you of the Evil Halliburtons in your midst. What you've forgotten is that the Halliburtons of America are large repositories of American jobs... for American people by and large doing work that benefits... other American people.

"What is more dangerous than big government is big government which is under the control of big business."

They are one and the same. There is no way (other than the current Venezuelan model) to have one without the other and nothing (!) is more dangerous than big government. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you have.

"Protecting the rights of the individual is about minimizing concentrations of power."
Does that mean you are opposed to employees unionizing?

Only law enforcement officers' unions are opposed by liberals. All others are OK. Try to work the logic there.

"We could accomplish our military objectives in the WOT by simply investing a relatively small amount of resources in gathering intelligence in the middle east, and when we find a target, bringing targeted overwhelming force to bear."

Duane, this is the first thing you said that I could be on board with. That said, I think we actually did the best intelligence-gathering we were capable of at the time, "Bush lied!" notwithstanding. As stated, this is what has happened in Iraq.

See, I'm not all contrarian all the time...

Duane,

You are ignorant. Corporate charters have been in existence since roughly the 16th Century, and are specifically intended to induce investment and risk by limiting one's exposure to the amount one has invested in a venture. Corporation is related to the word--Latin, I believe--for body. As in Marine Corps. Use of the corporate vehicle was tremendously successful in facilitating economic growth for England--thereby creating the possibility of a middle class, and of course has worked exceedingly well here.

Legally, a corporation--body--is a person. It is an individual, and can be sued as such. But that is where it stops.

I did a search on the history of corporations and numbnuts leftists have apparently decided to take over Google.

Here's the deal: ban corporations and most of us here will lose our jobs. Ban or reduce corporate free speech, and you have taken a large step towards autocracy, which of course is where leftists are always--yes always--heading.

One sees constantly threats to ban intolerant speech, which of course is contradictory, since that impulse is fundamentally intolerant.

Historically, economies and political systems tend to fare well when those with vested economic interests were given a large say in how things were run. People without money, without land, without strong interests tend to want to vote themselves money, land and take a strong interest in this alone, regardless of whether systemically it is in the interest of the economy or nation as a whole.

This is why the House of Lords was considered a useful counterbalance to the tendency towards mob rule on the part of the House of Commons in England. This is why the Senate has to bless everything. Force of numbers counts for less there.

You state: "Protecting the rights of the individual is about minimizing concentrations of power.", and in support of this contention you are implicitly arguing for increasing the current power of our government to regulate free speech. How does this protect the rights of the individual?

Arguments functionally identical to these--I may just pull some quotes out if you want to call me on this--have been used to justify mass murder. The French Regicide was about protecting the rights of the individual. But it didn't work, because you do not improve the law by subverting the law, and don't increase rights by decreasing rights.

I'm sorry you apparently buy all of this ridiculous anti-corporate tripe cooked up by economic and business simpletons to take advantage of the widespread failures in our educational system (which I attribute to the concentration of power by the Teachers' Unions, who are reliably Democratic). What you tacitly arguing for is widespread poverty, and decreased personal rights.

But the rhetoric makes you feel like you standing for something worthwhile, doesn't it?

I knew I shouldn't have read this thread.

28/F/110#

WU: mix of CFWU+Burgener WUx2+snatch transfer skills

3x12

push press: 75-75-75
BOR: 75-75-75
Deadlift: 135-135-135

now off to 1 hour dance class

Day behind. Lots of snatch practice followed by singles. Maxed at 85#, slightly > 1/2 BW. Last two strong, quick pull and deep squat. Tough exercise.

Iran = Evil Without Measure

No kidding. They are the root support of some amazing feats of murder, kidnapping (which customarily ends in murder), and terrorism (which... say it with me... usually ends in murder). After today's brutal workout (100 degree heat), I don't have the strength to repeat it or justify it again. It's all been said (by me & others) before on these posts. Know your history and your enemy. It all leads to Iran.

There is no "kiss and make up" option. Oh, and the "Don't whack the beehive" plan doesn't work either. They want to convert us or kill us.

But, as our elected leadership is determining what our best options are and formulating a plan for dealing with Iran, lets see what we CrossFitters can do...

Ditch the SUVs. Ride your bike or do whatever to spank your inner tree hugging gas saving monkey... Take away every dollar you can from oil. No kidding. Every time I have to buy gas, I remind myself that I'm paying the Terrorist Tax and risking the lives of my Band of Brothers. Make the choice to starve the middle east by denying them our continued subservient use of 8 cylinder Suburbans & Hummers. Google Hypermiler and see what you can do to get by on a lot LOT less with the car you have.

You will still be a man without the big truck.

In my quiet and contemplative moments, I imagine Greg Amundson doing his "GI Jane" workout. Or I get fascinated by that breathtaking photo of Brendan Gilliam with his kettlebell. Neither of those guys needs a big truck to get my complete and undivided attention. Even in a Toyota Prius, the measure of the man is the man, and those two guys just make me... oops. darn. i got a whiff of testosterone & went off track. back to Iran...

Next, educate yourself. Islam. Terrorism. Iran. Syria. Iraq. Saudi Arabia. Histories of insurgent movements. And, yes, let's not forget our own failed dealings with the bad guys. Just because we had a hand in creating our own Frankinstein monsters doesn't mean we have to tolerate or accomodate them. Don't like to read? Fine. Get a book on CD from the public library and put on your headphones...

And, make your commitment.

Either say "I'm a total NancyBoy, and I don't care what the threats are to my country, my community, my friends, family or myself. I am going to pretend that we can prevent terrorism and Islamofascist sponsored violence by carefully aligning my chakras into a 1960's peace symbol." That should work really well until explosive reality intrudes on your otherwise perfect downward facing dog pose.

Or, you can choose a different path. One that says "NO". Whatever your "No" is. Join the military. Export soft diplomacy in the Peace Corps. Apply for a job with a 3 letter agency. Vote responsibly. Train to be a first responder. The list is as endless as you want it to be.

And, um... just as you train your body with CrossFit, get your personal act together. Debt is a 4 letter word. And, get some supplies. Nice lethal goodies for a rainy day. Don't go out without a fight. I watched the Pentagon burn from a hill in Arlington. I can happen, did happen, and will happen again. Get your own gear.

A quick recap:
1.) Iran = BAD. Lean it, live it.
2). Deprive the Middle East of your oil money
3). Learn WTF is going on
4). Choose: Either admit you are a "kitty" and start wearing pink panties and a sensitive guy, poetry reading, espresso sippping, beret-of-brotherly-love, OR, do something to deny the spread of Islamofascism. Even if you're not fit or brave enough to be a pipe hitting tango killer, do what you can do. Apply the practice of "NO".
5). Never ever criticize our fighters. Without them, we're phuked.

Semper CrossFit,
Spider Chick

P.S. I'm still here, training hard. Even puked today after the monster workout in 100 degree heat. Joy, joy...

barry #114

Please take a course in reading comprehension. I didnt say that corporations didnt exist prior to the mid-late 1800s. I said they were not commonly used to grant to everyone. Usually there had to be a goal of the government involved. Read before you insult next time.

The only reason that a Corporation is a person is because the Supreme court says its so. Dont make me cite case law. The corporation as person is legal fiction, nothing more.

Yes, corporations are good because they allow for a pooling of capital in a way that removes the risk for those who invest. We can argue wether or not that is great for those who end up eating those externalized risks, but that is another discussion.

Banning corporate free speech does nothing but return the balance of power towards the individual. Why should an entity whose only duty is to its own bottom line be allowed to influence policies that have life or death consequences for real people? Its absurd.

Your argument that societies run by the rich are better off would play well to the British Aristocracy we sought to divorce ourselves from. In a democratic republic, you have to deal with real people voting. I dont remember there being corporate free speech in ancient Athens or Rome...

You actually said something I agree with. Yes, the Senate is our house of lords, it does its job, in hopefully applying the voice of reason. I see no mechanism in the constitution for ensuring the 'voice of money' gets heard, outside of the senate.

Nice way to twist my words. Id like to know how and when individualism became equated with republicanism? Removing corporate speech increases the relative power of the individual, who does not have access to millions of dollars, to influence policy. Its hard to get a point across to a government that is in power at the whim of corporate policy.

to equate this argument with the french revolution is very straw mannish, at a minimum.

I understand the dynamics, it is you who apparently do not. I have said that I am in support of maintaining the corporate form, its a great way to fuel growth. Where we run into problems is when we humanize an institution that simply isnt human.

Perhaps next time you should read all of the thread instead of reading three words and launching on a Rush Limbaugh monologue.

Wow. Although truthfully it's almost expected, as sad as it is. He's a fundamentalist islamic dictator. I encourage the people of Iran (if any read this) to stand up and fight the dictator who has really brought your country down into the dregs and is now terrorizing and killing his own people. Can any more fla