Wait....modern liberals think?

Can someone please tell me why the weight is pressed up into position from behind the next and not the front (where it would seem easier)?

Thanks...

howard

Bro, that's was harsh...I bet you're eyes lit up when you saw that title :) As far as I can see most people are liberal on some issues and conservative on others (myself included). Better yet, walk around and ask people to define conservatism and liberalism. I bet you 75% of Americans couldn't give an accurate response.

Joshua, good comments. You had me until the end. Are there actually accurate responses to what conservatism/liberalism are - is it not in the eye of the individual? Just wondering. JP

Great job Mark! You fired me up!

BTW, for the best explanation on the core difference between conservatives and liberals, I recommend A Conflict of Visions by Thomas Sowell. He lays out the explicit (or often implicit) assumptions about human nature that leads each side to think the way they do about various issues. Unlike his other books, this one is neutral...just showing how and why each side thinks the way it does. He uses the terms constrained and unconstrained vision, however.

After this book, you'll be better able to do what Joshua says that most people can't do. I suspect he is correct and most people, at best, could list policy positions but not the core assumptions of each side.

Now, back to important stuff...like my OHS question. :-)

howard

Great job Mark. You always push any group you train with.

Actually, most peoples ideas are Libertarian. But, they are forced into either Republican or Democrat.

Awesome job on the OHS!!!

Strong, inspiring work Mark!

the biggest problems with articles/links like this is that it classifies groups of people as being this way or that way, right or wrong. sure we can generalize groups but at the cost of limiting your ability to understand the individual. its a sad shame.

to me saying that all liberals or all conservatives are this or that way is the same thing as saying all blacks are criminals.

ignorance has many faces !

#9

Warning to anyone following the link to truthout.org - make sure you put on your tinfoil hat before clicking.

Mark - freaking outstanding! BW PLUS OHS!!!

OMG .. amazing video on overhead squat. heading into the garage now to practice !

I see ideology whatever kind has limiting the potential of mankind. but I agree with other comments that this is a gross generalization. I am deeply troubled by the damages to the environment that are happening right now and all ideologies must come together to change our country for the better.

howard #2,
Pressing/Pushpressing the weight up from behind the neck allows for the appropriate wider grip of the OHS. It is more difficult to push press the weight from the front rack with the wide(snatch) grip.

20:58
Can't do muscle ups yet...did mostly jumping PU

That was great. Super job, Mark.

Video work was super. Music was chosen well, didn't have to turn down the volume to show the kids.

I'm sure proud of your work, Crossfit!!

I knew there had to be a reason, thanks Andy.

howard

I truly wish you would keep the politics and anti-Islamic material off the site. I am a liberal on many issues, opposed to the war, the viciousness of the current administration, the stupidity of our aggressions and the resulting deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocents, many children. Plus I am green, pro environment and Pro indigenous rights.

As far as the Sott's squatting press, most people now think that behind the head presses place the rotator cuff, the posterior capsule, and the posterior lip of the glenoid under too much axial stress and don't recommend it.

i have observed some independent thinkers who lean left or right but by and large it's always amazed me how sheeplike the majority of those who identify themselves as either "liberal" or "conservative" seem to be - one lockstep set of beliefs, then process information in order to prove the conclusion they've already decided on.

i have not listened to the mp3 yet though and though I do not agree with all aspects of conservative dogma by any means, i definitely agree there's a liberal "mind" in this country that can truly be the subject of some fascinating analysis. Kind of a calcified mindset, the opposite of open-mindedness but masquerading as open-mindedness. A Barry, I think, on this board has made some observations recently about this mindset (I think of it as a manifestation of a kind of affluenza, a mass psychological adjustment to some maladaptation - I will not elaborate except to say that I think a hardcore liberal running the country would be just as bad for the country as they believe Bush is --- because it's a maladaptation, an overcompensation of some type, the survival instinct is just gone) that really seem on point to me, and again I'm far from a quote "conservative" (for those who will say "oh another one of those "conservatives"!)

Kewayatin, here are some other options to telling other people how to run their own website:

1. don't pay attention to the stuff you don't like

2. pay attention to the stuff you don't like, and intelligently criticize it.

I would also like to ask you who you believe killed those hundreds of thousands of innocent people in Iraq. Were the vast majority of the deaths the result of American soldiers killing civilians, or the result of Islamic militants targetting opposing sects and aiming to create a cycle of violence engineered to weaken support for the war and convince the US to leave in order to gain control of the country?

If you believe the answer is the latter option, do you think the withdrawal of American troops will exacerbate or improve the situation, and why?

I am genuinely interested in what you think, and I promise I won't insult you if you disagree with me.

well there you have it then (22, 24)... who is offering fuzzy vague platitudes and who is presenting clear analysis here? seems pretty obvious in this case. (Consider that mitigated if the questioner is specifically and directly responded to) While on some issues I'm actually more quote liberal, I think this exchange here is incredibly typical, I've seen it repeated in different forms time and time again on this board & elsewhere. Thus I've concluded that a very large amount of the time, the liberal view would like to be the "good guy" or the "nice, compassionate" view but the RESULTS would actually cause more suffering in the real world.

Out of Mr. Sayat's incoherent linguistic morass I think I've understood him to believe that liberals (whoever they are) are akin to 5 year old children, splashing around in their childish fantasies about, for instance, the beneficence of the 'UN' or the importance of reproductive rights. Liberals, it seems, have a peculiarly putrid way of misunderstanding the way the world really is and works. What is perhaps the worst thing about this liberal sickness, is that the corruption it brings to the liberal mind passes out of the individual liberal infant, and into the world, making conservatives lives more difficult.

Mr. Sayat is partly right: there are people who have allegiances that are irrational, born out of fear and intellectual dishonesty and laziness. He is wrong if he contends that irrational allegiances and enmities are the particular symptom of a liberal mind thinking its sputtering liberal thoughts.

Just as it would be silly for a liberal to paint all conservatives as truculent war-mongerers, blinded by religious bigotry and/or national chauvinism and military/economic arrogance, it is unhepful to paint all liberals as weak-kneed, mealy-mouthed moral relativists who like to create problems for other people to fix. It seems that those who have irrational allegiances and who self-identify as conservatives or liberals, get a good deal of enjoyment out of that sort of name-calling. But what that sort of political discourse achieves is a deadly shoring-up of teams and a further insulation of one's self from meaningful contact with diverging perspectives and, even worse, from the facts.

The liberal who is an utter relativist afraid to make tough decisions is a dangerous and suicidal fool.

The conservative who never doubts the soundness of her moral judgment before or after acting on it is an equally dangerous simpleton.

Mr. Sayat is at his best when he decries 'indiscriminateness'. But one gets the sense that he has a nostalgia for an age (that never was) in which an upright conservative could avoid the challenge of being discriminating because the truth was a simple thing to know and honourable people (like him and those on his team)were more abundant. Is this why it sounds like the answers come so easily, so self-evidently to Mr. Sayat? Is it becauase his own particular burden of discrimanting requires him only to 'choose' the options laid out for him by his team?

Is it really the case that the political culture int he United States is one that people must identify or beidentified with one of the two teams. To be a discriminating political actor would seem to require more than making one decision among two alternatives once: Am I liberal or am I conservative. Shouldn't acquiring the attribute of a discriminating mind (or being politically fre in a meaningful sense) involve many judgments over and over? You are free to do that aren't you?

Was it an example of a liberal's thinking worthy of a five-year-old to act through diplomacy to solve the most recent hostage crisis rather than tactically nuking and 'paving over' Iran? Surely it wasn't. The adult/conservative, child/liberal dichotomy is a false one used by members of each team.

#22 Kewayatin,
You wrote, "As far as the Sott's squatting press, most people now think that behind the head presses place the rotator cuff, the posterior capsule, and the posterior lip of the glenoid under too much axial stress and don't recommend it."

By what basis do you assess "most" people? Were all these folks talking about Sott's presses, seated presses, or standing presses? What loads were they talking about? I'd be surprised and fascinated to see even a couple published articles on the barbell Sott's press (not to mention establishing a legitimate "most people"). Did you watch the video? The movement was introduced using PVC pipe. Is that contra-indicated also?

Your statement is nonsense. I have personally seen several folks with "damaged" shoulders (self-described old injuries with "permanent" limited range of motion) "miraculously" healed by working the Sott's press along with the pressing snatch balance and behind the neck jerks. They all started with PVC and worked up using 15,22,30,33, and 45lb bars. Baby steps and common sense are remarkably effective.

That being said, I would put doing 3-5 sets of 8-12 reps of seated behind the neck shoulder presses in the same bodybuilding category as lateral raises and bicep curls, and wouldn't recommend it either.

Thanks to Angie, I still have a hard time brushing my teeth, putting on a jacket, and feeding myself with my stiff little arms. Thanks Coach, I love it!

Mighty impressive lifting Mark!

If you want to see the difference between liberals and conservatives (as people) simply read several liberal blogs like Huffington Post or the Dialy KOS and see how much venom they have and lack of reason while constantly forwarding conspiracy theories. Then conservative blogs like Powerlineblog or littlegreenfootballs and see how they are mostly just defending America and Conservatives from Liberal Bias and hate.

I find it quite eye opening.

The quality of writing is normally better in the conservative comments sections of the blogs as well, versus the liberal comments sections.

Howdy,
Mark...strong.
Work
{Ride (Airdyne) one mile at 44rpm's, two miles at ~67rpm's, one mile at 44rpm's, one mile at 67rpm's, .5miles at 44rpm's, one mile at 67rpm's, and .5 miles at 44rpm's; seven miles total}.

OK I'm 6:30 into the mp3 and I love the expertise on "why liberals lie." Give me a break. Isn't the conservative AG about to get canned for bold face lying to congress? Didn't the conservative VP chief of staff just get convicted of lying to congress? Maybe its ok to lie as long as its under oath to congress (a federal crime). Or maybe the current administration isn't really conservative. Anyone want to comment on that?

Ironically, The political discourse in the comments is better worded, better spelled, more informed and more insightful than most news or political forum blogs! (more civil, too...)

#27, I am one of those "previous injury, limited ROM shoulder people" who has heard all the "don't do work behind the neck" talk and am a little hesitant to try to put up big weight from behind my neck. Is there any more information out there about why it won't destroy the shoulder and how to do it properly? thx.

What a great viedo!!! Great work, Mark! I struggle with the OHS, thanks for the motivation.
Pat

Thanks Coach for posting the Auditory article, it was a good one.

One thing that I don't like is labels, but everyone seems to like to use them. People feel more comfortable with you once they have you "figured out" and catagorized into their special catagories. A lot of people use the same catagories, so you end up with certain groups of people, such as Liberal or Conservative.

The problem is that most people will do an instant read on you and automatically catagorize you based on face value. They don't know where you have come from, they don't know your motivations, they don't know what secrets you hold.

Here is my own catagorization-
Most Liberals want everyone in special catagories. They are the ones to immediately make face value judgements on what type of person you are and then group you accordiningly. It is a very closeminded approach to society.

People by nature need to belong to something. The problem arrises when each group then determines that their group is more special than any other group. There is no open mindedness, there is no acceptance at that point. It is only their way or the highway. That is when discrimination starts and then no group is better than any other.

Kate

You know what my eyes did in fact light up when I saw that because my response was funny. Just as if someone had posted the exact same thing but changed "liberal" to "conservative" or "democrats" or "republicans" or "whatever".

Sometimes, things are just supposed to be funny. And I'll bet a fair amount of people who post on here 'got it'.

Liberals are a group of people who use one side of an issue for fundraising. Conservatives are a group of people who use the other side of an issue for fundraising. The rest of us are just the people who are asked to select our leaders based on their presentations on what they will do with those aforementioned funds raised.

Some folks make decisions with their heads, some with their hearts, and some don't have the courage to make them at all.

#9 AF
I read your link. Repeatedly I could replace the word conservative with the "Anti war movement" and it seemed to make more sense. That’s strange..... Try it for yourself.

"Conservatives (insert-Anti-war movement), Altemeyer found, often engaged in right-wing (insert-left wing) aggression not only out of political belief but also 'for the pure pleasure of it ..... [They are] malicious, mean-spirited, and disrespectful of even the basic codes of civility ... [A]uthoritarians have little if any conscience when pursuing their causes, and reason gives way to expediency." .....by organizing less than peaceful protest, spitting on war veterans, wearing ski masks while burning the American flag. I'm sorry, I added this last bit. You get my point.

Wow, that's a lot of politics for an exercise site. I'm just glad it's a rest day!

as a service member and Christian I find this phase chilling, especially since working in a collegiate environment I find these tendencies from the more socialist left I know...not the conservatives I know.
"In addition, we can anticipate continued packing of the appeals courts with more jurists in the authoritarian mode, serious cracking down on opposition web sites and writers on the Internet, the continuation of corruption at the highest levels as lobbyists buy corporate access to the writing of laws, and further movement toward the assumption of "unimpaired executive authority," to use Cheney's spine-chilling term."
The "unimpaired executive authority" reminds me of the 8 years under President Clinton and what will happen if Sen. Clinton is elected. The idea of fundamentalism does not extend just to the far right, but just as much to the far left that accept the mantras and pronouncements of their heros with devoted, religious acceptance and without question. Personally, I, like most people, end up somewhere in the middle, which sounds oddly libertarian...
Comment #38 - you are right, you can insert either label and it makes sense.

Semper Fi....

#33 Thorsten
If I were you, I would be VERY hesitant to try to put up big weight from behind my neck. I would start with low reps with very light weight. If after a couple days it was clear that everything was ok, I'd add a few more reps. Still OK? Then, I'd experiment with increasing the load very gradually (say, no more than 5lbs/week).

This week, after the Oly-lifting seminar with Coach B, we played with this sequence:
Muscle Snatch
Overhead Squat
Pressing Snatch Balance
Sott's Press (all of these movements are described in detail in various CrossFit Journals http://www.crossfit.com/journal/)
We started with PVC and went up in the steps listed in #27 (not everyone made it to 45lbs). The beauty of the these movements is that the shoulder is not isolated from the rest of the body. Often, limitations in the hip show up as "shoulder inflexibility." These movements are highly functional. Done properly with appropriate loads, they have an amazing ability to "heal" chronic injuries.

Ironically (perhaps), Kelly Starrett (the athlete in the end of the Sott's Press video) is a physical therapist. That 153lb press is the heaviest I've ever seen (I've heard of heavier). I would never recommend someone without a lot of experience with the Sott's press going for a single rep max attempt. This is what I meant by baby steps and common sense are remarkably effective.

that overhead squat was great but the technique seemed to be too "liberal" for crossfit. a more conservative overhead squat based on smaller government and states rights would have been better

:)

Wow, it's like we're all talking about completely different sets of national politics. I've seen things said here attributed to conservative or liberal thought that given the exact opposite source than what my experience tells me is the case. Clearly a whole lot of us are wrong about a whole lot of us.

Would be lovely if we as people could have some meaningful dialogue about what should be done with this world of ours.

chb #26 - I agree with much of the "substance' of what you say, however, I would leave out the jibes at Sayet's "incoherent linguistic morass", but it's not entirely unfair.

As someone else has noted above, most average citizens, even those with a standard "liberal arts" education, cannot tell you what a "liberal" (or Liberal) is, what makes someone a "Conservative", as opposed to just conservative. Very few can talk about the underlying theories, who espoused them, and how these somewhat opposing views came to be BOTH embodied in our Constitution, our jurisprudence, and our society and culture.

I would recommend Purcell's "Crisis of Democratic Theory", which I saw someone else once recommend on the Boards - nice to know I wasn't the only who read that in law school. It explains the inherent conflict in our systems, mechanisms, and theories of government, and allows one to at least be able to discuss these issues intelligently, rather than just whipping ill-conceived notions and labels around without really understanding the underlying philosophical content of them. There ought to be an acid test, which describes a program or action and then asks "is this a 'liberal', 'libertarian', or 'conservative' view/program? Explain with citation to authority and critical reasoning to support your answer."

If you can articulate the theoretical underpinnings, you're at least on your way to understanding the issues both sides espouse and why - and maybe make some judgments about where that leads us long-term.

This doesn't mean you have to pigeonhole people and make judgnments about them, but it can aid you in classifying ideas and their bases, to better understand how they fit into a larger context. I think that's proper intellectual discrimination. First one to call names loses.

nice job on the OH Squats.
I especially liked hearing a little George Strait while I watched it.
I'm glad it's a rest day.

Kate,
I am one of those people who is guilty of labeling a person as a “Conservative” or a “Liberal” and I do get burned at times. I, myself, am a Ross Perot Independent (Yes, I know what you are going to say… but I still like the guy).

I can remember one incident about 5 years ago at work . I had labeled a gentlemen by the name of Ambrose as a “Conservative”. The reason is this. Ambrose, at the time, was in his mid fifties, married with two children (a son and a daughter), worked in private industry all his life, went to church, served on various committees at his church. His children were the children most of us would be proud to call our own. They were honor roll students, both black belts in Karate, clean cut. Ambrose had kind of a gruff personality but still worked well with others. Very intelligent guy. At this point I had known him for about a year and as some people who I work with know, I will “poke” fun at their political view points. Another women who I worked with named Susan was a devote Liberal. Susan and I were talking politics one day and Ambrose walked by and said to us, “I passed a billboard on my way in to work this morning for one of the Republican State Representatives running for office. On the billboard it had his name and the phase The Compassionate Conservative”. At this point I thought I would poke fun at Ambrose’s political party so I looked at Susan and Ambrose and said “Huh compassionate conservative… isn’t that an oxymoron”. Susan starting laughing but Ambrose looked at me strange and then walked away. I looked at Susan and said “Oops, I hope he knows I was just joking. I didn’t mean to offend his party”. Susan then looked at me strange and said “Ambrose is a Democrat”. Seemed the joke was on me. Apparently Ambrose thought the remark was funny. However, I learned a little lesson in political labeling that day.

I stand with #17 Gabe. #23 Stuart is getting at it as well. Remember, dogma kills brain cells...

I killed the workout today!!!

Got to love the Heritage Foundation. Evan Sayet is amazing. Check him out on Youtube, the video is also worth watching.

Modern Liberals, hehe. I love how that is quickly becoming a deragatory label.

He references "The Closing of the American Mind," I highly recommend it!

Mark - Way to go!! Absolutely amazing. I get chills watching these videos of people breaking their PR's. Nice!

Kate - #35

"Here is my own catagorization-
Most Liberals want everyone in special catagories. They are the ones to immediately make face value judgements on what type of person you are and then group you accordiningly. It is a very closeminded approach to society. "

The irony is staggering...

AF and Kewayatin....A fine example of Conservative Venom by the President Bush:

http://www.hinzsightreport.com/dave/dave-040207.html

Kate

Most Liberals want everyone in special catagories. They are the ones to immediately make face value judgements on what type of person you are and then group you accordiningly. It is a very closeminded approach to society. "

In my life's experience, it seems to be more of a "Human Nature" thing to label someone rather than a liberal or a conservative way of thinking.

Okay, for today's W.O.D., I did 2 hours of TV watching, 20 minutes of interval running, 2 hours of stretching, 3 hours of guitar playing, and spent the rest of the time eating.
It was kind of easy. I guess I need to increase the weight. :-P

You know, pointing to the fact that labels are often partially or completely inaccurate does not eliminate the value of using categories as a system of organizing thought. I would argue that proper thinking requires them, and that the goal ought not to be to eliminate labels, but to generate more effort and sincerity in the task of ensuring an accurate fit between label and what and who is being labelled.

As our modern political systems seems to have evolved, in my view, what has happened is that a highly vocal group of individuals has propagated a set of ideas that uncritically criticize the United States, without regard to the topic, as a matter of first resort. They impute hidden agendas to anyone who acts in a manner congruent with a sincere desire to further American interests, or who is unapologetically patriotic. Often this is Republicans, but we have also seen people like Joe Lieberman treated in a similar manner, in effect for apostasy.

I label these people leftists, and my method of diagnosis is very simply the congruence of unrelenting resentment of any number of Bush policies, coupled with an inability to come up with an alternative, or even the ability to argue their own position. They quite literally don't know why they believe what they believe, but nonetheless consider their view the only possibly correct one, and all those who deviate from this line as politically suspect. What they are suspected of, of course, varies by the day. Just like the charges levelled by their apparent heroes in various Communist regimes against political dissidents. One could almost be forgiven for sympathizing with Kafka's prisoner in The Trial.

Obviously, there are also unthinking patriots, but they are generally not out trying to generate policy changes based on ideas they can't defend. They tend to vote Republican, and let the President and Congress do their jobs. There is nothing incongruent about this.

When I see people criticizing the use of labels, per se, on the surface I can understand why people would think this makes sense. Racism, of course, is little more than the misuse of labels.

However, what we have--of course, in my opinion--is not a genuine difference of opinion, based on differing views of the world, reached after substantial effort.

We have one group of people that is borderline antipathetic to factual analysis, and entirely devoid of any interest in the use of logic to develop coherent views. And we have another group that is actively trying to implement good policies. To think. To look dispassionately at what works, and what doesn't. Some of those people are Democrats. Some are Republicans. There are smart and dumb, honest, and dishonest people on both sides of the aisle. But on the Democratic side you have in the wings this unrelenting wind of hysterical condemnation that is absent on the Right. This unreasoning, childish hatred that knows no cause, and permits no deviation from an infantile insistence on one and only one version of truth.

That wind is the result of the intellectual flatulence of leftists, who have done more damage to America than most people realize. Do people truly understand how many millions of people have died at Communist hands, and that we very nearly acquiesced to them? That the Rosenbergs, who were executed today, were guilty?

#53
Kris I personally thing you over did it. I mean 20 minutes of interval running?! That seems a bit excessive! ;->

Well said chb!(post #26). What the world needs is people thinking for themselves not just regurgitating a party line. Ideologies are boxes that people are happy to rot in. Where would we be if Coach wasn't willing to think outside the box? We wouldn't have Crossfit and that would be a shame!

CCTJoey- That article was right on target.

In the OHS video, is the guy actually being instructed to hold his breath? Or is the command 'Hold!' referring to something else?

Barry - I appreciate your clarity (or clarification) on the use of labels and categories. They are shorthand ways of embodying themes/philosophical views and it is easier than saying "the group of people who believe A B, C, D..." and so on. I absolutely agree with that. The problem I find is not that people ought to be entirely consistent with the "liberal" view or "conservative" view, but that people don't even seem to understand the origins of their beliefs any more. If asked, "why do you hold that view - regarding affirmative action or welfare or universal health care", for just a few contentious examples, most people would be very hard-pressed to articulate anything more than a rudimentary answer, and if pushed become extraordinarily (a) angry, (b) defensive, or (c) unresponsive (tied to a, generally). It's because of a certain intellectual laziness, IMO. I'm not sure if that is any more prevalent among the left than the right. I think the answer to that question depends upon where you happen to be working and living at that particular moment.

I think opinions ought to be well-formed; the product of serious intellectual pursuit and study. I can disagree reasonably with a guy who's done his research. Generally, you can find where the difference is in either (a) underlying assumptions or first principles, (b) facts, or (c) reasoning. A good way to check this is to ask the person "what facts would have to be different" for them to hold the opposite view that they do now? if they simply cannot answer this question, I won't bother talking with them. They haven't thought about it - they don't understand the issue and are just regurgitating dogma. That's a waste of both our times - I'm not going to learn from or convince them and they sure as hell aren't going to learn from or convince me.

I think CrossFit.com is a great place to learn about fitness as taught by people who are clearly masters of the subject and I eagerly continue to read your teachings so that I may learn, push and do. So now and so into the future.

I do not care for the political element being included, no matter which direction it leans. This seems very out of place and unnecessarily divisive. Further, including that subject in the same entry as regular CF info generates lot of unnecessary "cross-talk" that makes tracking conversations more difficult. Just making one entry for CF and one for any political/religious/philosophy you want to put forth - assuming it is still deemed necessary to do so - would be a great first step.

Not telling you what to do with your site but you asked what I think.

Moon

oh, one thought. I posted and it was held. This has happened to me on a number of occasions. I point this out because I have never (in the numerous times this has happened) impugned Lynne's, Coach's, or anyone else's motives. usually the post pops up a while later. I say this only to pre-empt the inevitable comment about "we'll see if this gets posted" and other tripe people post about Coach being some kind of fascist or this site only soliciting one point of view. I've had posts held up as much as probably anyone. I'm sure it is simply a filter. Given the vitriol of some comments on here, I frankly see the need.

So, "liberal/progressive/left of center or simply contrarian" point of view holder, have no fear. We all get held up in the queue sometimes, and I am certain Coach welcomes dissent, even the less well-reasoned kind, as long as it maintains a certain level of minimum courtesy.

cheers.

Skipped one day of the last cycle due to fatigue. So, today:

rounds of 30, 20, 10:

overhead squat @ 75#
pullups

Followed by:

bench press x3@: 225, 245, 265, 275, 275, 275

And fifteen easy minutes on the bike

Mark, You are a stud

Alton (#58), yes, he's being instructed to hold his breath. Creating a pneumatic brace with a large belly breath is usually more effective for heavy single rep efforts, especially overhead squats.

Have already signed up and looking forward to Rip's seminar.

Mark, Very impressive on the OHS; I can't wait to see how much I can improve. You're an inspiration!

I skipped yesterday's WOD in favor of the group circuit at Jersey Shore Crossfit where we did a FGB inspired tabita circuit. It was very crowded. It was great to see so many folks drinking 'da Kool-Aid!

What does (BW) mean in the video?

When's the cert for C2 rowing?

To understand the bigger picture, one must realize that Democrats and Republicans don't matter, the ones truly in charge understand that getting people caught up in details of politics and its respective parties, "wars", and so on, help them to mask what is really going on.
www.infowars.com
www.prisonplanet.com
www.freedomtofascism.com

#59 (Moon),

I couldn't agree more. If the purpose of the website is to further excercise science and fitness, it seems counter productive to include such devisive political content.

I love xfit, but there have been a few times that I was so disgusted by the rhetoric that I didn't want to return to the site. I'm a comitted crossfitter. I wonder how many people that were simply curious, that may have become crossfitters, have decided it's not for them due to this.

CCTJOEY,

Thank you for the link...it made my day.

howard

In reference to the shoulder danger of the Sott's press...

The body is a wonderful tool, that when used properly, can perform miraculous feats. When putting the body under stress we must understand the structure and function in order to understand the protective mechanisms. Your muscles are the motile portions of your body, pulling your bones around the fluid filled joints. At the end range of these joints we have ligaments which attempt to prevent sudden trauma and reduce the injury in the event of such trauma. The ligaments are not meant to hold added weight. The muscles are there to absorb the shock of most movements... when the muscles falter it is then the responsibility of the ligaments. Most injuries occur from abnormal biomechanics (moving the joint outside of the standard range of motion) or muscle fatigue (inability to absorb the shock). A behind the head press, when done with proper muscle tone and joint flexibility is not riskier than any other motion. However, a body without proper shoulder girdle strength, neurological conditioning for the movement, and joint flexibility will be at risk for injury. When starting ANY new exercise we must utilize low weight (so as to not fatigue the muscles to the point of failure) and high reps (to train the nervous system to direct the new motion). When doing the exercise with low weight you will also be able to test out the flexibility of your shoulder girdle and see where you are lacking. If we were to do the Sott's press with too much weight or improper conditioning of the neural pathway, stress would then be placed inferoposterior aspects of the glenohumeral (shoulder) joint, so the concern for those structures stated above is not improper. But does the inability to perform a pull up stop us from properly training ourselves to do it? No. Same with the Sott's press, just use training common sense.

# 70 Nick

I'm sure you enjoy the crossfit excercises and all, but meaning no offense, if you are "disgusted" by the "rhetoric" here, either don't read it, or go to another site... just a suggestion

#46, #52 Andy W-
First off, good story.
Human nature and the "need" to label was what I was referring to in part of my first post.
The problem with the Liberal labeling is that they do tend to take people more at face value than to get to know what they are about. In my expierience it has been Liberals that are the quickest to condemn and to label. People don't always fit into neat little compartments.
For the longest time I wasn't sure where I belonged in the political party aspect, but it took Liberals to define for me where my political views fell.

#54 Barry C said it well.

I also agree with Dale, posts get held for many different reasons, and now with the crack down on trolling, I would expect more posts being held.

I think Lynne deserves some flowers or something, she does a bang up job. :)

Kate

I dislocated a shoulder doing behind-the-neck presses, the weights went fliying and it all around sucked. Painful too. Needless to say I am aprehensive of Snatches, OH squats, sott's presses, or any movement that puts my shoulders in that position under load.

I have been doing OH Squats with a narrower grip and light weight. slowly working the grip outwards. Watching the guy do 76 OH Squats the other day and then drop the bar behind him almost made me vomit.
Literaly, I was queezy after watching it.

Hey-

Just to share my good karma, ... I was wearing my black CrossFit SoCal t-shirt that I got from Eddie at SanDiego CF when the Chief walked into my office yesterday. He says "Can I speak to you in my office?" Hummm??

Anyway, ... he ends up offering me a new position in a new title at the Dept. It includes an initial 8% pay increase with annual 5% increases for the next 5 years. Sweeet!

My new favorite t-shirt,... I'm all bragged out!

Best of luck in your training,

-K

Blue Cheese

Not offended, just disappointed that someone proved my point so quickly.

That's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. On any other day I would never get a worthless comment like that. Rest day politics just brings out the ugly in a lot of people.

BTW, kinda hard not to wade through the crap on rest days when you're actually trying to read constructive posts like all the talk on Sott's presses. Again, proving my point that the political discussion should be separated from the xfit discussion.

bluecheese, would you say that the overall sentiment of the crossfit community is well represented by your post?

"I'm sure you enjoy the crossfit excercises and all, but meaning no offense, if you are "disgusted" by the "rhetoric" here, either don't read it, or go to another site... just a suggestion "

i've recently discovered this site and am genuinely curious. i made the mistake of engaging in a discussion regarding the 15 british soliders held hostage in iran and regret doing so. one of the big reasons i love working out is because when i do i'm not thinking about life's stresses i.e. finances, relationships, politics, etc. and while i believe there is value in discussing politics i'd rather not do so while i'm learning about fitness. when i visit this site i would much rather watch clips of various crossfitters workout for 56 minutes than listen to a 56 minute talk on politics. unfortunately, i am going to have to seriosly reconsider regularly visiting this site if politics has such a prominent role in this community.

Overhead presses and rotator cuff injury:

I love the Rest Day political exchanges but another thread running I found interesting was about the overhead press movements and injury. I read Tony B.'s post (#27) and took him up on doing some research. After a brief review of abstracts generated from various search terms, I really couldn't find any info related to injury doing overhead pressing. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but I didn't even find any promising leads. I sadly listened to the advice to avoid behind the head movements/pressing and lost the flexibility to perform these movements and have been working on getting it back. Biomechanically speaking the shoulder has an exceptionally larger ROM, but this also predisposes it to injury, which, is why it is a good idea to be strong and flexible throughout the entire ROM.

#59, Moon,

"I do not care for the political element being included, no matter which direction it leans. This seems very out of place and unnecessarily divisive."

What's wrong with divisiveness? How do you decide what is unnecessarily divisive?

an attempt to summarize: capital L, Liberals reject the discrimination between good and evil. History has shown that things people thought were good and acting on that notion of good have committed horrible crimes against humanity. Without this discrimination, one cannot rationalize action *against* another. For instance, it is WRONG for NY police to suspect/profile black people as more likely to be criminals, regardless of the FACT that 68% of all violent crimes, rape, murder, etc. are committed by black people who make up 24% of the population! Now, the "L"iberals who respond that I am racist are the ones this lecture says "have lost their ability to critically rationalize", they "live in a Utopian world similiar to John Lenon's song 'Imagine'". This is not the real world. In the real world, decisions you make in life affect your life. Sexual promiscuity can lead to disease, that will stay with you forever, or even parenthood. And easy answers like abortion are wrong, they are selfish and irresponsible. (except for instances of violent crime like rape)

Yes you can disagree, and that is fine. But the point is to make up your mind and stop being lazy. This is just one side. I disagree that the "Liberal" is always lazy. You just have to actively define, it can change, "What is good?" In the face of the difficulties to that question, some people just give up... and bumble through life as useless debt-accumulating parasites to society.

#70 It seems every few rest days someone whines about the ammont of 'rhetoric' on the site and how this is suppose to be an exercise site. Ok fine, but remember most of the 'rhetoric' is in reaction to a link posted by the people who run this site, with the intent of generating dialoge on rest days.

Since the truth is that there is about a dimes worth of difference between Dems and Repubs I won't offer up an opinion, I mean, how much does a person’s day to day life in America change after an administration change? Not much for MOST people. On that note I would recommend “Ten Things You Can’t Say in America” by Larry Elder. Give it a read and see if you agree it, it is well put together and is designed to get you thinking in new ways…kind of like crossfit for the mind.

At any rate, the reason I started writing:

Comment #8 by ryan is spot on—well said ryan, well said.

Comment 24 by russ greene—NICE!

Comment 59 Moon. Oh brother… I am confused, if you don’t like the political side of this particular crossfit web page then why not mark your calendar and do not visit here every third day? The other three days have little to no political postings on them. You must get something out of it or you would not be here, right? Besides, people like me generally show up here every third day because I think the coach does a great job at getting people thinking and discussing current events. People like me find it fun to read some of the thoughts posted here and enjoy the debate…So instead of trying to water down this rest day discussion, I respectfully suggest you either get in on the fun or boycott it…BUT don’t go ruining it for the rest of us—Tis not fair my man.

Comment #70 - Posted by Nick – please read or re-read the above statements.

For years I have tried to understand the Liberal mind and never have I been able to understand and clarify it like Evan Sayet does in this video. If I had to boild down conservative to one pre-eminent value it would be "Personal Responsibility". I was never able to do this for Liberalism - and the closest I came to was probably "guilt" which isn't a value at all. It make sense now - Tolerance>Indiscriminateness. This doesn't make Liverals eveil, it only makes them wrong, because their misguided overarching value doesn't stand up to logic. And let me state for the record, he (and I) are not talking about people w/ mixed liberal values, we are talking about Modern day Capital "L" Liberalism, which Barry correctly identifies/alludes to as really mislabled Leftism. JFK would be considered a Neocon today. Southern Democrats became Republican because Leftists pushed God out of the party. The fringe has become mainstream in the Democratic Party and I believe both parties have actually shifted left. It's hard for me not to laugh when they call Bush a Neocon when he appointed Norman Mineta, or when he supports Amnesty. The Bush=Hitler voice is so loud and shrill on the left that you can't ignore it. They paractice the most intolerant tolerance I've ever seen. The idea of Tolerance for tolerance's sake is idiocy anyway. How about some values? If you're not willing to fight for something, then you really don't believe in anything.

Anyone who tries to say the two parties are equivalent opposites are not paying attention. If you averse to labels, then you to are being indiscriminate.

I really need spellcheck LOL

#83 I agree with your statement about the non-static nature of political labels. Lord knows I agree about the "intolerant tolerance" of the vocal left.

Any yes the lack of God in the party might have forced Southern Dems to the Republicans but the Civil Rights Act of 1965, signed by LBJ who was quoted as saying "There goes the south" as he signed it, may have played a role too.

#80
"an attempt to summarize: capital L, Liberals reject the discrimination between good and evil. "

Two perfect supporting examples of his theory in action the same day. Sorry, I don't know how to provide links.

Here's evidence of the moral relativism/aversion to moral judgement.

1. John Stewart interviewing Philip Zimbardo, the author of "The Lucifer Effect" last night. (6th video in the playlist @ Link - halfway through) makes the following quotation. "It boils down to this. I get the sense now that were in the trouble we're in because of this idea is that there is Good and there is Evil and it doesn't mix and we're locked in some Hobbit-like battle between the two."

2. Rosie O'Donnell on The View (@2:23)
Guest: "Even you word it - 'a war on terror', personally I think that is propaganda."
Rosie: "Exactly (unintelligible), thank you.
Guest "I don't like the wording of that"
Rosie: "Right, because it makes people into Evil and Good.

This isn't to say Evan Sayet would argue against duality, that there is good and evil in everyone. To say so would be a strawman argument. Rather, the Good and Evil is that of the cause and the overall assessment of the proponents of the cause.

If any big-L Liberals would like to comment, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. Note however that as a Conservative, I fully expect you to avoid self-examination, avoid taking the topic head-on, and only making comments like "Conservatives are the same" or the standard issue ad-hominem attacks.

I guess this is going to another one of those "Rest Days".

This is ALPHA fitness. One has to toughen up. Just like Lauren and Coach compare and challenge other ideals in fitness, they do the same for personal political beliefs as well.

You don't buy it do you? There is no cost associated with it is there. They don't slip it in the CF Journal do they?

To be honest, constant Fitness gets boring. I appreatiate a change-up.

How we view the world is interesting. What else I find interesting is how many people into Crossfit are Conservative or Libertarian in nature. I have always attributed this to the difficulty factor...the isolation odf being miserable while surrounded by others suffering through the same thing.

I say, "Liberal is a person who has not been mugged yet. A Libertarian is a person determined not to be mugged again. A Conservative is a person determined to prevent anyone from being mugged"

CrossFit appears to be this way to me.

Hell, after yesterday's workout, I felt like I was mugged!!!

Did you ever wonder why there are no "buddy" assistance exercises in CrossFit?

A stretch-band is a stretch-band. It is a known...it is cold. It does not "Help" you. You USE it. I would not THINK of helping a dude do pull-ups if a band was available. If he can't do it with that band...he has to KNOW he needs a bigger or more bands and he has to look himself in the mirror and admit it. I will LOAN him my bands. I will TEACH him to use them. I will SHOW him where to get his own.

CrossFit is a GROUP of people on an INDIVIDUAL Journey. We like it that way, or we would not be here. Perhaps we should look at life that way too.

To Conservatives, Liberals are a collosal train wreck becuase they keep doing the same things in an act of "Vision" where everything is "Shared". Yet they never work and normally make things worse. Things like personal responsibility and accountability are to be relaxed for some who, but for no other reason, just don't want to grab a stretch band and do a pull-up. Instead, Liberals demand we all help pay for this those people's gym membership. Meanwhile this those people complain about the equipment we have to workout with and want better stuff, but never works out or contributes. He does drink the coffee, though.

If you feel isolated as a Liberal on this board on rest days...there is a reason...no one has sympathy for your position.

I am not sure that CrossFit in it's purest form is compatible with a far-left liberal mind-set.

Just an observation.

Distinctions matter.

From my observations, the goal of Xfit is to make a body physically strong in all areas. A strength in all areas is sometimes refered to as, "well-rounded."

I think that the rest day discussions are available to increase reason and analysis, and promote discussion and learning. This helps create a well-rounded person.

Now my political views:
I think it is unfortunate that the American people can only be represented as Reps or Dems in the federal government.

If there were more parties just as strong as the Reps and Dems, current issues could be debated more successfully. As it is, all of our representation is either: what the Reps party decideds or what the Dems party decides. (or as in the emergency funds bill, who can be bribed over the pork barrel)

#86, nice examples.

"Hobbit-like battle" -- He's trying to establish a moral high ground where his views are not subject to real world information and statistics.

its like saying: The *petty* argument or discussion of right or wrong is useless, because no one is completely good or completely evil, we just need to accept eachother.

But there are varying degrees of good and evil, maybe if some terrorists killed his friends on 9/11 he'd have a different view.

Thats another thing, the effect of 9/11 was so localized to the new york area that people have ^forgotten^ what it felt like because they only experienced it indirectly through the media. The way New York changed after that day is undescribable.

#67 ChrisB- BW= Body Weight

#75 Kevin Rogers-
Congratulations! That's great!

On another note-
I have a post being held, don't want anyone thinking I'm a drive-by. :)

I had to laugh too when it got held, because I refered to Dales post about posts being held, Now that, my friends, is irony.

Kate

The NOOBIE Files-

The Political discourse is awesome. For those who don't think it has a place here, you are ignoring a vital aspect of training... Intellect.

I feel good about the way ideas are exchanged here with a fairly limited amount of personal attacks. As for me...

It seems the arguement about (L)iberal=evil and (C)onservative =Good is based on your own personal morality. What if you're wrong...on either side? There is no need to know if an idea or policy is liberal or conservative. We only need to know if it does the greatest good for the greatest number of people. Getting caught up in the name calling between the sides stops the game. The goal of which is to create a positive, just, productive society. Do your best. Look for the best in your fellow humans and help your neighborhood, community, town, city, nation, be the best that it can.

#90 You reminded me of..
A discussion with my spanish uncle a little while ago. He said, "history tends to reward the tolerant society as being right."

But what if the tolerant society is destroyed? What if there are people who are intolerant of the tolerant society? How do you confront hatred? Can you wait for the hatred to disappear? Can you accurately measure the amount of danger your society is in?
*I don't know, but I would rather not find out.

One of the problems with today's society is its complexity. There are financial, trade, cultural, political, etc types of forces interacting all together. Maybe its just me, but I don't think we understand all of the things that are happening...

Try this one out: Ask yourself, what ideas and perspectives of today will be accepted as a given in 50 years from now? Which will be looked back on with disgust?

I would be wary of allowing this (Marx did it) to determine your values or beliefs. The information we have now is MUCH different than information we will have in the future. We cannot predict this, but we can play mental games about it... The best way to go is use the information of today and personal experience to guide you.

A good book on this is: The Open Society and Its Enemies, Karl Popper

For those people who can't be bothered to read and comprehend all of a post (Timmy, Petey)-

At no point did I ask for the political discourse be discontinued, I simply suggested that it be held in a separate comments section, so that those of us that visit for excercise information and community can actually find it.

I agree that intellectual development is a necessary component to the development of the whole person, but if I want political discourse, there are far better places to find it than on xfit's internet chat board.

Liberals want to tell you how to spend your money while Conservatives want to tell you how to spend your life.

Mr. Sayet seems to have a bit of a problem differentiating between 'prejudice' and 'discrimination'

To: TimmyTheNoose (#82)

Hello Timmy,

Actually I've only been actively participating in CrossFit for a couple of weeks now so I am not familiar with the posting format or scheduling so I thank you for the information. I've been mostly reading the online stuff, watching the videos, etc. I just hopped over to comments in the last couple days. Now that I am familiar with how it works, yes, I will skip checking the site these days.

If I have time to argue politics with anonymous people on the internet, I should probably use that time to read more about CF, practice some Krav Maga techniques, check in with a friend, do or even just think about something fun/meaningful/useful. That certainly beats lobbing (what-I-think-will-be) clever bundles of electrons to the screens of people I do not know whose minds I will likely never change (and how much of an ego must I have to be so sure that I am right enough to change them. Looking back at different phases of my life, I shudder in horror when I imagine if I'd had the power to convert everyone to my way of thinking at the time!)

To me, CrossFit represents positive effort towards change and growth. While arguing into the void of the internet generally equals stagnation.

See ya on the regular days!

Moon

Behind, as usual, with lots of time on my hands, which is UNusual. Caught up with three WOD's and posted details there.

Power Clean 145PR
Clean&Jerk 115 PR
MU/Back ext/Run->18:15

With regard to Rest Day my humble suggestion to the experienced among us is to say once each Rest Day that intellectual challenge is a part of CF, and then consistently and completely ignore all protestations from newcomers to the contrary. Those of you who have been paying even a little attention will note that I often post a work-out on Rest Day (and you could rightly assume that I read all of the posts), but that I rarely engage in the conversation. I learn from both sides of the spectrum but choose to observe rather than partake. My choice, and as far as I can tell, exercising that choice is just as consistent and acceptable to Coach as Coach inviting these discussions.

The conversations, especially ones such as those above which are carried out with respect and cordiality, are most worthwhile. Let the naysayers figure it out, or not. Expend the effort on the conversation. They'll either figure it out, or not. It's OK.

"So what are you doing, Honey?" Just hangin' on CF, looking forward to my massage in a little while, drinkin' a beer.

True.

D.

might have been an off day but took it open myself to workout. Made my own work out at least I think so.

WOD:
reps 21,15,9

20lbs wall ball
40lbs kettleball swing
30 inches Box jump
Head stand push ups
pull ups

For time: finished it in 18:12

its a burner

#91 was the best comment so far. i get pretty tired of the political discourse on this site, too. the occasional insight is hard to find among all of the name-calling.

workout? oh yeah. see you tomorrow.

#90 i agree that it is important to train the intellect but i honestly don't believe intellectual training is a key component of this website. if crossfit felt training of the intellect was a vital apsect of its program there would be training for the intellect every day, not every fourth day. in addition, if we are here to exercise the mind as well as body based on the crossfit philosophy of "broad, general, and inclusive" then there would also be things/topics on/like sudoku, chess end game moves, arts, science, mathematics, etc. i CHOSE to study a social science in college and spent more semesters discussing bentham and mill and plenty of other philosophers than i care to remember. political discourse can be awesome, particular over a few beers. but in this loosely moderated format every four days? it's just not my cup of tea. point of views aside, the logical fallacies (no you) are enough to drive me nuts.

Dear Moon and the noob's -
When I first came to CF in October 2005, I lurked around for a while. I tried to find out what the "tone" of the community was. In short, I watched, listened, and learned. I asked some questions here and was directed to the Board. I went there, and watched, and listened, and learned. Eventually, I posted times, encouragement to others, and thanks to those who helped me. I tried to stay within the community rules and become a part of something I really liked and was benefiting so greatly from.

Eventually, I offered some opinions. I tried to keep them polite, and even if I felt strongly about something, I tried to back up what I said with facts and critical reasoning. I learned a lot from the people here, even when I disagreed.

I didn't try to control the content of this site. I figure, Coach and Lauren are paying for the bandwidth, so who am I to tell them how to run their site? They've given me more than I could ever give them. Heck, I'll probably never even meet them in person to say thanks - so I got a subscription to the CFJ - and again, it turned out I got way more than I gave (my measly $25 was nothing for what I got - I was practically stealing for that price.)

For those of you who don't like the "tone" or the "rhetoric" or the "politics", I have posted at least a half-dozen times (and even had a few long running arguments over this), no one held a gun to your head on rest day. If you can read, you can see that there is no workout posted and the instructions are, obviously, "here's some political or other non-fitness related topic, read and discuss." This has been the modus operandi for at least as long as I've been coming here. So, please, no whining. Try to understand, for those of us who have been here a while, you are the thousandth person sniveling about this. Many of us are losing our patience.

For those who think just "throwing electrons at the page" is a waste and "who am I to convince anyone of my ideas" etc, etc, thankfully Thomas Jefferson and the boys didn't feel that way about the pen, paper, and letter - the internet of their day. That's how the federalist papers came to be, as well as many other great missives and thoughts. You (#93 Moon & #96 joep) are guilty of exactly what Sayet talked about - indiscrimination.

"Who am I to judge?" you ask. Do you not have a mind to think with and reason to attempt to ascertain truth? Or do you just not want to exercise it? You see only "name-calling" because that's what you are looking for. To the man with only a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Maybe on workout days, you're more challenged. I truly feel it's too bad you're unwilling to apply the same gumption to rest days.

Dale

ps - Lynne, my post still held. Come on, it was one of my good ones!! I only used "he11" once or twice.

It's just occurred to me how many people view this dialogue as a spectator sport. As most of you know, I can be found here pretty reliably most Rest Days. What may not be obvious, though, is my motivation. I'm not hoping so much to learn from others, although I do. My intention is to exercise my own mind in the expression of coherent views. This is a workout.

I only got one B in Graduate School. The course was Philosophy of Religion, the instructor one of only a few people I've met in my life that I considered just plain out of my league intelligence-wise, and the topic of our grade-defining paper: "What do you believe, and why?"

It's harder than it sounds. I'd encourage others to try that exercise. Start right here, in small bits, relevant (mostly) to the topic.

Dig. Push. Reach the limit of your comfort zone, then push out into the Beyond. Be scrupulously honest, and adopt an attitude neither of defeatism nor arrogance.

It is a core belief of mine that no one who is capable of thinking clearly is capable of true evil. The corollary, of course, is that all evil arises in arrogant ignorance. It's fine to be ignorant, but the arrogance puts a cap on it, and prevents further development. It's a "mistake in the future", as Edward de Bono puts it. That is why it's such a deadly combination.

In my view, that is the only way to explain leftism, which doesn't work, if the metric is accomplishing its' purported aims, such as "social justice", economic equality, liberty, or peace.

#94

actually I think you didn't read and comprehend all of my post since the point was, as several other people have pointed out as well, the people who run this site are the ones posting the content to be read and discussed on rest days.

"Ok fine, but remember most of the 'rhetoric' is in reaction to a link posted by the people who run this site, with the intent of generating dialoge on rest days."

So if Coach really wanted us to talk about exercise and crossfit all the time he'd post links to sites that focused on exercise and crossfit(which does happen from time to time) and if he didn't want to encourage political dialoge he'd never post links to "How Modern Liberals Think"

And my name is Peter. Thats just plain rude.

#85 very well put.

one last comment from the avowed Moderate - in observing this debate over the decades I've noticed a strong tendency among liberals to dismiss all conservatives as (a) ignorant or "nonevolved" and/ or (b) greedy and heartless;

coupled inseparably with a strange silence, changing of the subject, resorting to emotional appeal, or selective hearing (rarely addressing the questions of "how do I refute that argument directly" or "what specific workable steps can we take to make a better world - rather than just talk about it fuzzily") when confronted with a well-articulated argument by one of the many conservative commentors who are perhaps none of those things.

Nick

What I was trying to say is that this is a free site that is privatly owned an run. The owner of this site must have his own reasons for putting political discussions on here. My point is that you are not paying for this. Just because you don't enjoy a small debate doesn't mean that others don't. The fact that you said that peoples comments on here can be disgusting made me think that you might want to either avoid the discussions here, or just go somewhere else. And if you want to avoid the discussion board but still get good tips on the workouts, there is a forum on this website that might be useful to you.
Also, I'm glad I proved your point so quickly. Maybe you can use crossfit to work out your body, and seek some help with that thin skin of yours....

#79 Will

Your comment about watching videos of workouts instead of politics is kind of confusing. I'm looking at the sight right now, and today they had 2 videos on working out, and only one on politics. As has been said in here numerous times, This is a free site that is privatly owned. You are not paying for this. The owner of this site encourages political discussions for a reason..

#89 Joey

You are my new hero

Great job Mark! Very inspirational!

Mark,
Great drive and determination on those OHS!

#108:
Why does he put out the political discussion? Why would he want to be known as a hard core conservative?

Simple.

Look at the business.

It's driving appeal in the military and law enforcement.

It's smart business. He knows the market. I have no idea whether or not he actually cares about the politics, but that's largely irrelevant.

The political discussions are not good, by any stretch of the imagination, just like any site which is completely dominated by one ideology. LGF, Daily Kos, Crossfit politics -- they're all cheerleading for their own side, and debate, per se, doesn't exist.

The Rosenbergs were guilty? Shock, horror. Moon, you'll be back I bet. Barry, only one B in grad school? I knew you were a smarty pants.

Leftists make for great spectator sport. While I think, one one hand, the radical leftist fringe has done great damage over many years in many ways, it's probably better that they are in their zenith with the moonbattery (at least it seem they get more press these days) b/c it makes their illogic that much more visible to the majority of normal people (I'm hoping the majority of us have what I think would be called normal views - even if that is the textbook def.) When I see coverage of anti-this and that protests with the bizzare collection of free Mumia, legalize weed, an-abortion-a-day-keeps-the doctor-away, down with up, Bushitlerhaliburton, stop capitalism, land rights for gay/lesbian/transgender/whocares whales, Che rocks, etc. it kind of makes my day. I mean really, what harm can these people really do if/when push comes (came) to shove. They're great entertainment.

#114 Schmidty

Speaking of protests, there is web site, www.protestwarrior.com that deals with that. It is a group of young conservatives who go to these leftist protests and carry signs like "Saddam only kills his own people, it is none of our business" and "Crimnals for gun control, why should they have to face an occupational hazard." Funny stuff.

russ greene-

i'm not one for posting much, but kewayatin's comments inspired me to write. that is, until i read on and saw your response. well said. i couldn't agree more.

however, i will add the following. unfortunatley, the rosie's and left wing media personalities of this country are able to preach whatever they want unchallenged. it is refreshing to find people who actually educate themselves and do not believe the nonsense they spew. and remember this..."we should not fear the terrorists, they are mothers and fathers too." the liberals would really have you believe this. if only our military was allowed to do its job the way they know how.

whoa!

Awesome Mark!

I'm inspired.

Hey! Great coaching! Who's responsible?

#103 dale, i agree with a lot of what you wrote. listen, learn, then talk. got it. it's just a bit frustrating when the first post regarding a topic, particularly political, for discussion is an ad hominem argument (if can even be called an argument). yes not all post are like that and most are not. maybe i just see what i want to see. like i said years ago i spent many semesters in college having discourses like these with 'intellectuals' and 'future leaders of the world' and after all that time the best conclusion seemed always to be agree to disagree. even if logically speaking one argument was correct and the other weaker, no one would ever give an inch. such is the nature of these type of issues i guess. i do apologize to the owners of this site. i would be wondering who this clown is that appears to be causing trouble or asking for change. that is not my intention. it's just my opinion and i will give it if given the opportunity. it has been posted and i will leave it at that.

bluecheese, my point was that i listened to the posted lecture, which was 56 minutes long and afterwards realized it was a waste of my time, similar to how i felt after i watched the movie crash and would rather have sat through 56 minutes worth of crossfitters getting down. thats all.

Evan Sayet--Brilliant!

103 Dale--WORd

113 Andy--There's "no debate, per se" because the Lefty's bring it so weak and are at a disadvantage considering they are wrong. All kidding aside, some of the more liberal leaning CFers have brought some very good thought provoking debate in my opinion. And although I may disagree, I find that I value the intellectual challenge of presenting an arguement over just sitting on the couch and drooling to another hour of MSNBC "cheerleading" their agenda. Don't you think it very presumptuous to assume Coach posts conservative articles as a business ploy. Maybe he resembles the large majority of those he has graciously educated and trained in CF. Hmmm?

On a happy note, I couldn't resist the urge to attempt a muscle up as I passed my rings coming in through the garage after work. And I totally surprised myself by actually DOING ONE! And then did a second just to prove it wasn't a fluke. And on a rest day no less. Man, it's only 6pm here in Hawaii. Anyone still around to help me celebrate??

NICE WORK WILLLLSSSSSOOOOONNNN!

I still haven't tried myself :(

I'm in CO, going to be up all night editing my thesis.

so I guess the next step is two muscle ups...

James

Thanks James. I'm trying to come up with a way to incorporate MU into my thesis...ha! But it doesn't seem to relate closely with the Human Factors of Flying Fifth Generation Fighter Planes:(

Good luck bro!

1/5 SSP
Cindy
J- 17
Sean-18
Nutt-19
Eddie-22
Tyber-22

Not bad for thier first Crossfit work out.

ME Shoulder Press
5x5
65#x5
70#x3 Fail on 4th rep
70#x5
70#x5
75#x2, 75#x1, 70#x4
65#x5
That was enough - seriously ME. Looks like 70# is my 5 rep max.

Then, worked on full cleans. Highest weight 90#

"Don't you think it very presumptuous to assume Coach posts conservative articles as a business ploy. Maybe he resembles the large majority of those he has graciously educated and trained in CF. Hmmm?"

No. I think it's smart business. Like I said.

If he happens to believe it as well, that makes it easy for him. Smart business.

And you post is an excellent example of the poor quality of the "debate."

Andy,

You are thinking like a consumer and not a producer,which is a common malady in certain zip codes on the political spectrum. If you don't like the quality of the debate, don't complain: debate. Quite obviously, your posts are being allowed.

Refute my contention that leftists are entirely unable to generate ideas that conform with known facts, are logical, and actionable. Think clearly, then express your thoughts in coherent form using clear language. To do otherwise is to support my contention, and in point of fact, comparing this site to the Daily Kos is subtle but real ad hominem, which, along with incoherence, is the coin of the leftist realm.

Kevin Rogers
I just read your post. Congrats! Keep up the good work!

"ad hominem, which, along with incoherence, is the coin of the leftist realm."

I think posts like this support my point better than any argument I could possibly make.

Any post that takes the form, "hey, [member of group a] refute why [group a] sucks and wants to kill puppies and destroy mom and apple pie" is not an particularly good entry to a reasoned, sensible debate.

I don't care to argue the actual politics here. The meta-politics are much more interesting. Again, I think it is an interesting case of community/business building.

Andy,

What you are saying is "I could make a great case if I wanted to, but I just don't feel like it." Forgive me, but that attitude is contemptible. It's chickens&*, and that you are combining it with indirect aspersions on the character of Coach--that he's using politics as a draw--is just asinine. These political discussions COST him business, as if you took a moment to examine the comments on even today's comments would easily show you.

Make a case or shut up. I am well justified by history in my assumption that your failure is directly tied to your inability.

Do this: prove to me Bush lied about something.

"These political discussions COST him business"

Prove it.

I think it is likely that they draw in more business than they drive away.

Also, it's sort of weird to say that I'm casting assertions on Greg Glassman by calling him a smart businessman.

Ahem, "aspersions." Silly autocorrect.

Andy,

Let me summarize your content thus far.

Discussions with recurring themes are useless. Therefore, Rest Day discussions are pointless. Given that it is pointless, there are likely business motivations involved.

Implication: Given that politics are inherently about what we believe are true, if Coach is using this as a business ploy, he is at least potentially and arguably insincere.

You have nothing to add to the topic yourself.

Implication: You are well satisfied with the content and quality of your own beliefs, and see no reason to subject them to your own or anyone else's scrutiny.

With respect to the loss of business, can I reference the fact that nearly every single Rest Day, almost without exception, someone says they are done with CrossFit because of the politics? That has, I believe, happened on this very day. Does that count, or do I need an opinion poll?

I can't speak for him, of course, but my sense is that Coach is as angry as many of us that our media is reflexively and consistently anti-military, and that a great deal of public opinion is generated based upon very incomplete, demonstrably very biassed portrayals of our President and his policies. There are relatively few sanctuaries where people who believe in our country, our President, and what we are doing can come and expect to have their backs covered.

Make no mistake,though: this site is open to leftists of all sorts and hues, provided they actually go to the trouble of thinking, which you are not doing. You are saying nothing, other than that you see a bias in the debate.

Obviously, I don't see my perspective as biassed. I see it as correct, and I am asking you to show me where I am wrong. There is no reason to assume that because two opinions on a topic exist, that they are both equally valid. In actuality, most of the time, one of them is mostly right, and one of them is mostly wrong. I am contending that the leftist position is mostly wrong, and you are doing absolutely nothing to change my mind about that.

I just asked you a very pointed, specific question, that gets to the seeming core of the Leftist "Bush lied/People died" argument, and you ignored it.

Other than that you have no faith in your own grasp of fact and logic, what else should I infer from that?

Andy--

Your post did not read that you were actually complimenting Coach as a smart businessman. Instead it seemed that you believed that it was simply a smart business technique that Coach had used to make the site more successful. There's a difference. My point, and I believe Barry's, is that it is that these political discussions are more likely injected by Coach as simply a method to create intelligent debate on subjects he is passionate about. It's his website and his invention. Why can't you admit you are suggesting you believe that he uses it as a promotional technique on purpose?

Coach, only you can square this side bar away. Comments?

"Why can't you admit you are suggesting you believe that he uses it as a promotional technique on purpose?"

That's exactly what I'm suggesting.

I think, with almost 100% certainty, that Mr. Glassman believes, passionately, in the political agenda that he is promoting on his fitness site.

I think that it very likely that it has a strong business purpose as well: creating an environment that suits his primary customers.

And so it is an interesting case for study of how political attitudes can be used to drive business in an ostensibly non-political field.

Andy:
But your assertions are laden with so many assumptions, some of which might have a good basis (but haven't been empirically shown) and some of which may not, it's hard to even know where to begin.

For example - you opine that one of Greg Glassman's motivations is for "business". You point to the fact that his "primary customers" are military/LEO and therefore that this political agenda is in fact to what? Satisfy or attract more of these primary customers? You say it "drives" his business, but I'm not clear what you mean. I'm also not sure that his primary customers are LEO/military. Maybe they are - I don't know. How do you know? Does this FREE website, perhaps frequented more by military or LEO indictae that these are his "primary customers"? How do you measure that? Since the site is FREE, is it your judgment that more LEO/military types are subscribing to the journal (for a mere $25 a year)? I don't know that either. Are more military going to cert seminars as a result of this site's traffic? I don't know that either. Are the rest day comments representative of those who use the site for workouts? I don't know that either.

Evidently, you have all of these answers and are thus able to make the generalization that you did with certainty. Maybe you're right - but you certainly haven't offered much fact to back up your claims, as far as I can tell.

But then again, you don't need to prove anything to anyone because of your certitude and the poor quality of debate here.

wow, that was the most massive oversimplification i've ever seen. wouldn't it be nice if guys like sayet actually knew wtf they were talking about rather than just speak in platitudes?

Personally, I doubt that Coach or Lauren give a Rat's @$$ about making a lot of money from CrossFit. From the little I have engaged either of them in conversation; my take is that CrossFit in the big sense is a "vision" realized through years of being trainers/coaches.

The "movement" seems to be a sort of grassroots “campfire” that turned into a "bonfire", then exploding into a forest fire. Appears to me that they make an attempt to keep that forest fire a "controlled burn". I agree with that. This is not for everyone in the sense that it suits their personality. Regardless of how much knowledge is dispersed into the Journals and on the Discussion Board.

There are lot of smart people involved with CrossFit, who will go the way of the Do-Do Bird.

Why? Because they will tire of the the CrossFit model as Coach and Lauren present it. The information they gained will go with them and they will re-cast their own version of functional movements, done at a high intensity, across a broad modal plane.

Over time they will think of this as their realization. No harm, no foul.

However, CrossFit will stay successful because of some important reasons or "Traits".
1. Capitalism
2. Open source information
3. Fair play
4. The prime mover of the above...GENEROSITY
5. Community (result of ALL of the above)

To explain:

CAPITALISM is at the heart of the dispersment of CrossFit. Whether it be through low cost affiliation, low cost (constantly improving) journals, low cost seminars. Think about how many people are making at least a decent living teaching CrossFit and how many others careers are prolonged DOING CrossFit.

OPEN SOURCE information. Got Web?...Got CrossFit! Between the website and Journals you have everything you need to know to do CrossFit. You don't get it yet...keep looking and asking.

FAIR PLAY...you bring it, you get credit. You better bring the results in a replicable format.

GENEROSITY. I would love to go into depth on this one, but I won't. However, dropping yourself into CrossFit you quickly realize that Generosity is a trait pushed from the top down.

COMMUNITY is a scary word as to what it invokes in people. This being said, from my perspective this is where Lauren and Coach are the true guiding light. It is within their interpretation of that word that the other traits have found their foundation. I think I have a handle on this, but I will leave that for others to figure out on their own. (HINT: Family) You either get it or you don't. If you don't that is OK as the first 4 traits are still available to you. However, don't expect CrossFit to change for your worldview.

To expand to Rest Day. If I had to guess why topics are chosen is to cause a stir in an otherwise disgustingly homono-genic group. Like all Families their must be some friction to bring out development and excitement.

I think this does two things:

First the herd is thinned, which keeps the overall Community healthy. No, believing lock-step with the Glassman's will not get you special treatment. What it does is keep those that want to change the "Soul" of the Community as grown from the Vision moving on a route proven successful to the likings of the Founders.

It is their Thanksgiving Dinner, so grab a plate, the knives and forks are in the drawer. Either way, sit down because the big game is on. You can bring the "Tofu-rkey" if you want, but you are not going to replace the Turkey with it. You want to serve Glassman Turkey at your own house... fine, they'll teach you. You don't even have to call it "Glassman Turkey". You can call it say "Jones's Turkey". Just don't make your own "turkey" your way, and expect the Glassman's to put their name on it, even if you bought a "Glassman Turkey" franchise.

Second, it allows a peek at one's inner thinking. Though there is a lot of "Back patting", that does not seem to be what the purpose of posting is...on the WOD or the Rest Day. Both are for gathering information from the feild. Your post does not get held because of you beliefs here. It gets held because of a breach of etiquet at the dinner table or you really should be eating at the kid's table with your intellect. People say some of the dumbest things with the proper use of the English language. That is not to say the Glassman's don't have a definate view point that differ between themselves and others. But at their "Table" they initiate the original discussion.

You have choices, you can:

take it or leave it
or
take it and share with others
or
take it and bring something to add
or
take it and leave

Though, I could be wrong.

Have a good 'un!

re Peter in #1: HA!! That was hilarious.

That "guy who hates his wife" analogy is EXACTLY the perfect analogy for today's "super" liberal. No, not every liberal, but to tell you the truth, most people who think they're liberal, but their beliefs are really conservative. Very few people are REALLY liberal, but those who are are either:
1) at an arts fair running the booth with the "Red Star" out front, signifying their love for communsim. Very few are THIS outright, but their beliefs coincide exactly with #2
2) People who are in office, elected in an area where roughly >75% of the population will vote for anyone with the name Democrat. People like Nancy Pelosi, Ted Kennedy, and the vast majority of congressional representatives from "inner city" areas like Detroit, Cleveland, etc. Basically, Michael Moore politics. He is the typical leftist.

regarding politics... truth of the matter is, it's really REALLY simple:

Liberalism is the belief that the biggest possible collective should be formed, because the bigger the collective, the better it can serve our needs. Their whole paradigm is based on the belief that there are no absolute truths.

Conservatism is the belief that the invididual is best for all of civilization when that individual is the best individual they can possibly be. And the best way for someone to become their best is to make them take personal responsibility for the survival and advancement of themselves and their family, with minimum intervention from the collective (government). Their whole paradigm is based on the belief that there are absolute truths, and we didn't pick those truths.

Joey-
A legendary post. I'm saving this one.

#137 CCTJOEY

"First the herd is thinned, which keeps the overall Community healthy. No, believing lock-step with the Glassman's will not get you special treatment. What it does is keep those that want to change the "Soul" of the Community as grown from the Vision moving on a route proven successful to the likings of the Founders."

Nice. This is right in line with Mr. Sayet's comments on what made America great and why we are in trouble because we started to promote diversity over what is good and right.

Hey, for those who "knew it all" about what it was like for those British sailors and Marines and how they didn't look harmed, not their statements coerced, please read this and then look in the mirror. And then go jump in a lake.

Link is probably work/family safe, although the descriptions are PG.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/story/0,,-6538267,00.html

Oh, no, wait a minute. I apologize - I am certain this is propaganda and somehow GW was involved in it. My mistake.

Ahhh, I was in the midst of posting something I was sure would be truly profound, inspired by Dale, and got pulled away from my computer. Here it is a couple of hours later, I'm in the on-deck circle, and CCTJOEY #137 just hit a walk-off grand slam!

The players are memorable but the posts run together. I agree with Dale, #137 joins Apolloswabbie's post asking for tactical options in Iraq as the two most memorable posts in my 16 months here at CF. Simple, honest, eloquent and elegant. Nice job, Joey.

Hey Coach, apolloswabbie's post generated a Rest Day discussion all of its own. What say ye to a discussion of the compatibility/incompatibility of generosity in a capitalist economy, inspired by CCTJOEY? Perhaps using CF as a touchstone example. Just a thought...

#127 Andy
"I don't care to argue the actual politics here. "

You guys seldom do. Why? Apparently b/c you can't.

#136 eze
"wouldn't it be nice if guys like sayet actually knew wtf they were talking about rather than just speak in platitudes?"

Again, we see the Liberal M.O. (Modus Operandi) of conveniently attacking the speaker, rather than addressing his content. You guys are so predictable (see me post # 88) "...I fully expect you to avoid self-examination, avoid taking the topic head-on, and only making comments like ... the standard issue ad-hominem attacks."

Sayet’s talk was preaching to the choir. Conservatives would resonate with his views, finding little to criticize in it. But it should be labeled “For internal use only”. It has no power to convince anyone. It over-generalizes liberals with no support. Liberals should not be allowed to hear it.

One theme came through Sayet’s talk: the irrationality of the left. This goes along with observations by Joey #30 and Thorsten #33 of the poor the quality of discourse from the left compared with the right. A hallmark of today’s left is Political Correctness. It’s a system of definitions intended to make true what rational discourse makes false. It’s clever. It’s an application of the theorem that he who controls the vocabulary controls the argument. It baffles the Administration and most of the right.

The contributors to this site don’t work from any definitions. Websites are not particularly suited to such methods. Without agreement on terms, the whole discussion comes off irrational. Barry #54 was on target saying that labels are essential to proper thinking.

Kate #35 & #52 had some astute observations about liberals putting everyone in special categories. See Lewis Dunn #50, too. This characteristic of the left arises not from Barry’s rule of proper thinking. It comes from Marxism and a couple of profound weakness in our federal system of government.

It points to a dominant difference between the left and the right in America. The left are collectivists, the right individualists.

The Democratic party is mastery in efficient politics. As in Marx, it divides the country into groups – the proletariat vs. the bourgeoisie; the masses vs. the masters; the poor vs. the wealthy; the victims vs. the victimizers; labor vs. corporations; haves vs. have-nots; citizens vs. soldiers; grunts vs. officers. It’s a numbers game. This is the Democratic way to power by taking advantage of the weakness of majority rule in a populist democracy.

The US government was not intended to be a lower-case-d-democracy. The country was a Republic, governed by three branches, and only the House, one-half of one branch, was directly elected by the people. The Judiciary was supposed to have allegiance to the law. The President was chosen not by name, but by electors. The Senate was elected by the state governments.

Then in 1912 came the Seventeenth Amendment to the Constitution, making the Senate directly elected. The states have electors to the Electoral College in name only. The President’s name is on the ballot, and the electors are bound to the candidate. Now the Supreme Court is a weather vane to public opinion, as represented by polls and the media, to make the Constitution a living document. The Court responds to party and causes de jour. The whole system is a complex, redundant, poll -- a clumsy democracy.

What’s missing from this evolved system of ours is an actual voice of the people. We need a national referendum, a national initiative. The public has no defense against the anti-Republic and populist campaign. This is why collectivism in this country is statism.

The Democrat