Great job Glover and Nicole!

Get some Glover! You did great brother.

meatloaf never sounded so good...

Makes one glad Israel has nukes.

Glover you are amazing. Keeping up with Nicole on OHS and then learnng your first muscle up in one day, it took me 8 months. I'm impressed

Damn, that was cool, and good choice of music...

That's awesome and very impressive.... but you have to be kidding me with that music. I'm a sucker for cheesy music...but that...that's just something else.

Comment on linked article: dunno, is this supposed to get us psyched for an invasion of Iran?

Anyhow, recent rest days have had various left/right debates, I'm glad, at least, to see some other somewhat "left" thinking people who do xfit.

With that in mind, I wonder if anyone has any thoughts or comments on this blog entry about John Dean's description of the authoritarian conservatism of the current admin:

http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2006/07/john-dean-and-authoritarian-cultism_23.html

wonder if this will stay posted

glover, i've never met you. today was the first day i even saw you, but i while i was watching that video, i was thinking one thing:

GO GLOVER, GO!!!!!!!

More on Glover:
http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterID=4655

Awesome, nice video. What's his training background?

Yeah, so doing Linda, I got through 10-9-8-7, but I then had to stop due to pain in my left shoulder that had a nasty habit of radiating down the rest of my arm. I'm well acquainted with the pain that comes from soreness. Soreness I can push through, but...

Maybe after all those HSPU's yesterday, today was just over-kill? Anyone have a clue as to what might be going on with my shoulder? It's still a bit sore, but no more radiating pain. Any ideas would be appreciated. I'm thankful that tomorrow is a rest day. Thanks!

28M 190# 6'

Wow, just did Thurs. WOD.

32:40

DL: 255 Scaled for improving lower back strength
BP: 190
PC: 135 The most painful of the three

That was the toughest workout I have done in my entire life, no exageration. I had blood dripping from both shins, strange looks from everyone at the base gym, and sweat drenched shirt and shorts. Six weeks into crossfit and loving every damn WOD. Thank you. Keep the pain coming.

Who knew you could get a good lung burn from power lifting?

I absolutley love the video! It displays the excitment CrossFit is and the support of a magnificent community! I cant wait until June to head to Vancouver and take the seminar!!

That's the kind of stuff that makes me want to go to a seminar ASAP. Way to go Glover! Any certifications coming up in the thriving metropolis of Hamilton, NY?

Glover-
Great job at the cert, you are an inspiration to us all. In short.....you da' man!

enjoyed the video I get my MRI on sat hope to be able to get back to some serious squat workouts

Glover was awesome - and his opponents are going:
"Oh just great, Glover's doing Crossfit now!"

Get Some!

Scott

Glover that was awesome! Really enjoyed watching! Nicole you rock. Now I am so excited for the Raleigh cert.

That video was simply awesome and so inspiring too! Like others that have said it before me, I have really been enjoying the latest videos.

Kate

how does someone manage to attend a crossfit certification without knowing what a muslce up is?

Comment #21 - C.george, you can attend a CF certification without even knowing who Athena is. Just show up and try hard and you'll come back a better athlete.

I pretty much never post on rest days, but I wanted to say, great video!

Tariq

TK, in the future try to read the question a little more carefully before answering. I'm well aware that a person isn't required to know what a muscle up is to attend a crossfit cert. I'm wondering though why a person would attend a cert without even knowing something basic like what is a muscle up. Seems like a lot of money to invest without doing some basic research before hand.

Another great video. Now I'm motivated to get the muscleups down.

Incredible...inspirational, really what can I say?! Go Glover! Competition and coaching during the workouts is what everybody needs to get to the next level I think.

Good article. I would encourage all to research Dhimminitude and ask if any but a muslim country could or would tolerate it in the world today. Also ask yourself why such readily availible information is virtually invisible in todays information rich society. K-

I've never trained with an athlete who displays more heart, determination and sacrafice than Glover! Strong work my friend.

#23, George, it's possible he was invited to try out the CrossFit cert as a guest. He probably did not pay then, nor know much about some of the workouts.

C. George, don't be a hater!

Maximus, we actually agree on something. :)

Maximus, we actually disagree on something. :)

Glover, that is a monstrous effort. You are an animal.

Cheers, kempie

Great job Glover - Nicole, you're awesome...

Can't wait for the cert in Raleigh!!

Tony, I am late in saying....but thanks for all of these fantastic videos! All are outstanding and capture the essence of CrossFit!!

Thanks again and keep them coming! Way to go Glover!!

Very inspirational video. I haven't been able to do a muscle-up yet, but this vid makes me want to try even harder now!

OUTSTANDING!

Any thoughts on converting barbell weight to equate with the use of dumbells? Shoulder injuries prevent barbell bench but with dumbells I am okay.

Cool video! Don't know either of them but was cool to watch.

Regarding muscle-ups, I just got my rings and once installed,, look out Nicole. :)

J/K it will most likely take some time to get even one.

Craig, knock about 10% off the barbell weight to get a roughly equivalent combined dumbbell weight.

Cheers, kempie

for some unknown reason my comments/results no longer get posted...therefore, goodbye...

Hey, great video--Glover looked a little confused on the muscle-up--almost as much as I would have, but not quite. Nichole, you are a machine! Out of town for a couple-be back soon!

I've missed 3 wod's this week, so I did one of my favorite at-home WOD's this mornign.

250M C2 row
20 push-ups

Repeat 10x for time.

18:35

Are there any CFers in the Greater Mpls area, preferably in the NW metro? Been starting the CF regimen, but it's a little lonely out here in the tundra.

Wally

RE Today's article: This whole Palestine / Israel conflict is just a war for land. Everybody wants to control that strip of turf. Like stray cats. It seems to me that the Iranian president is just incredibly good at getting people to rally behind him, whether or not he actually believes what he is saying. The thing is nobody is right here, it's just generation after generation of propaganda. What the world needs isn't to "eliminate the Muslims" or "eliminate the Jews", what we really need is to get rid of the whole silly concept of religion alltogether.

Stuff like this: http://www.venganza.org/

Today is my 41st birthday.

Last night I got a 7:33 on Fran with 65# pounds.
In August it took me 12 minutes.

I have busted about 7 of my previous Pr's in the past 2 months. Three of them in this last week.

Seriously folks, this stuff if Pure Effing Magic. The training at Brand X and all the support from the whole CF community - especially CrossFitCS and CrossFit Manchester, and CrossFit San Diego - our sister affiliates, has been awesome.

DAMN. This is CRAZY!

It couldn't have anything to do with the fact that during the Iran-Iraq war, bombs manufactured in Israel, with pejorative slogans painted in Hebrew on their shells were falling on Iran....

Nope. that couldn't possibly have anything to do with it.

Deying the Holocaust is just stupidity, but this article is no work of genius... the author makes so many leaps of logic and ommitts so much history that it's a pretty worthless piece.

Zach

#43 jsipko,

Yes, the elimination of religion solved so many problems in the USSR and China. Didn't it? How exactly is nobody wrong when one side is denying that (documented) mass genocide ever occurred?

That is one determined guy! congrats Glover! Never say quit mentality and tenacity.

Nicole, you never cease to amaze me.

Yours,
Gio

I always tear up when I watch those vids ;)
Good job!
Nicole, What can I say, You are awesome.
Wait until Glover gets some technique, another CF machine.

As far as the article, Am I the only one that thinks the people in the US are the ones "obsessed" with Iran?
Just an observation, but it is all I ever hear on the propagenda new agencies.

But what the heck lets go and mass murder millions of Iranians...er....I mean nuetralize the threat....because of what a politician says or does. Lets go ahead and break the taboo of using nuclear weapons, that has existed since we liberated the people of Japan, then we can get those bad terrorists where ever they are.
In Spain no problem nuke Madrid or Barcelona, turkey? Bye Bye Istanbul! I am sure the Lebanese are excited about the implications. But of course it is all for our saftey.

I am sorry but it seems we are getting very hypocritical these days.

Religion isn't bad for the world.
It is people thinking it is their job to convert everyone to their religion that is bad for the world.

Good Day!

#37

Dumbell weight = 80% of barbell weight.

You go Fielder! I agree...we're hypocritical.

#45 - Blake,

I'm not saying religion is responsible for ALL evil. That too is preposterous. The real problem is that people can just be idiotic. And also what I said wasn't that neither is wrong, in fact I believe I stated the opposite, that neither side is RIGHT.
However, removing religion from the equation sure leaves very little reason left for this particular conflict, doesn't it?

Also, just saw today's video. Sweet job on the muscle up Glover!

182/5'9"/23m

ran 5k

Good Job Glover!!!

Just found this.
Thought you might like it.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/february2007/140207pers.htm

Anyone know how to relax/stretch a sore lower back?

that article has no place on this site. Propaganda (from whatever side) does not belong on a site dedicated to fitness/strength/etc...

very poor judgement editor!

25m/63"/bw150
my very first linda wod
as rx'ed

dl 225
bp 155
cl 115

27.50

been away for a while, so i got onto another workout schedule...
cfwuX3 with gravitron on the pullups - still working up to those... then an hour worth of full court basketball games.

I do envy those of you that get to work out in groups like i see in the videos. It's always easier to push harder when surrounded by people doing the same thing, sharing the pain and providing encouragement.

Glover and Nicole!

Outstanding. My favourite video so far.

Steveo

Vids - outstanding, thank you!

Nicole, Glover - holy smokes, what a treat watching you guys work.

The thing about Iran, like all the Middle Eastern nations, is the split between what the average Iranian is living and dying for and what the ruling 'class' is living and dying for.

Obviously, there are and have been some serious ideologues running this country - reportedly they are trying to decide whether to take the Chinese or the North Korean approach (?!?!) to interacting with the world - but for years I've been hearing about the run of the mill Iranian that's not living on any religious extremism. That makes sense to me - I grew up in the heartland of fundamentalist Christianity, but no matter how zealous the parents, you don't usually get more than 25% of the kids to be true believers. It's not good that Iran is run by zealots, but it isn't necessary to fear that the whole place is like the leaders.

Strangely, Iran has significant infrastructure problems - lack of water is going to bring them to their knees in less than 10 years. They have neglected their oil infrastructure such that some predict it will collapse in 10 years as well. They export less than they did when they booted the Shah almost 30 years ago, and it's their only serious source of income. Their President has ruined what was an improving economy with socialist reforms that have resulted in a flight of capital, high inflation, high unemployment and fuel rationing. They have a grand total of one fuel refinery and have to import about 40% of their refined product. They have no strategic fuel reserve. They have many minority populations like the Jews; almost 40% of the country, and some of them have serious ambitions to get free of the Mullahs (Kurds, Baluchs, Arabs for starters).

Against the backdrop of all of these problems, it's almost stunning that they are betting the farm on nuclear technology. I assume it's because they see how NORKOR has been able to leverage a nuke into the ability to fearlessly rebuke the world while its population starves. It's also part of the bizarre shame the nations and individuals of the Middle East share as they look at their own shortcomings and the impossibly greater power, wealth and control owned by the West. Ahmadinejad thinks getting nuclear power will make up for years of backwardness, so he doesn't want a european made reactor. It's only good if it's an Iranian reactor with Iranian fuel.

If we can prevent their development of a nuke for a few years, I think the Iranian house of cards will fall, all the more rapidly if oil prices stabilize where they are - the question then will be whether they decide in desperation to reach out to the West or instead to use their (relative to that part of the world) strong military and take what they need from their neighbors.

And if they do get a nuke, it could get a little messy.

I think the efforts of the Bush administration are working as best anything would work at this point - different topic entirely - and I hope we don't get into a shooting match with them. Unnecessary.

Did Linda today - wow.

For a great satire of the notion that eliminating religion would do away with war (or most wars), please see the recent two part episode of South Park where Cartman freezes himself because he is impatient waiting for the Nintendo Wii to come out. He just wants to go to sleep, and be unfrozen a few weeks later, thus eliminating his time of impatience. Unfortunately, an avalanche buries him and he is found 500 years later, by a society devoted to the "almighty Science" and devoid of religion. It is one of the funniest, most absurd, irreverent, and surprisingly poignant episodes I have seen in a while.

Now, I am no lover of religion, but I think it is in our nature as beasts not only to hoard and fight for resources, but to identify with some larger group. Thus, I don't think eliminating religion would eliminate wars. It would merely change some people's purported motivation for wars.

A few days behind but doing the HSPUs with my feet above my head popped little tiny blood vessels around my eyes.

Any advice? I'm thinking that for me maybe this is just a non-negotiable ex.

Stevie #54
Wecome to rest day.

apolloswabbie and bret kleefaus,

I agree with you both. It is nice to see a few people who hold similar opinions to myself.

This was actually one of the first articles on this site that I enjoyed reading. I think it was at least a good theory of why the president of Iran is so absurdly anti-Israel and why he pursues such foreign policies.

But I can't agree with the contention that Europe has been striving to "delegitimize" Israel. It is true that the press there has at times been critical of Israel, but no country is beyond reproach and especially not Israel, who has obviously occupied the land illegally of its neighbors for almost 40 years. With any country, Israel has admittedly done wrong, but that is no reason to a) call Europeans anti-semitic or b) to wish for the destruction of Israel.

I think it must be pointed out that the "nuke Iran!" crowd is dangerously mis-informed both about the nature of the Iranian government and the ethics of nuclear war.

Yes, the government is despicable, but it is also not representative of the people of Iran, nor does the president have much formal power.

As for nuclear war, that is wholly an untenable position to hold for a country that prides itself on human rights.

Awesome job on the videos again, both of today's clips inspired me. I can't believe Nicole and Glover tapped out on the OH squats at the same time, how big is that guy? And I can't believe he got the muscle up on ONE DAY!! Actually, watching him gave me a few tips I'll have to try...

Nice work everyone, keep it up.

jsipko,

yes, many folks have been killed in the name of "religion", but the lack of faith in a higher being has given us folks like Hitler, Stalin, and Mao. While people will pervert religion to justify their crimes, the true driving force is greed and power. They use religion to unify for the wrong reasons.

man i'm hurting from "Linda" yesterday... back, legs, hands... everything!

I'm impressed with Glover doing that well with OH squats without ever doing them before.

Except for Meatloaf, that video was totally killer! (LOL)

www.valleycrossfit.com

Thank you for the link to the Iranian story. This and many others need to be heard by this country for us to understand that something that will alter the world is looming on the horizon. We in the US do not understand the seriousness of the Islamic movement world wide. Thanks, keep it up. Some other sites that are important:
www.littlegreenfootballs.com
www.americancongressfortruth.com

"We in the US do not understand the seriousness of the Islamic movement world wide."

So then how do you know the seriousness of it, or are you not it the US? Seriously, I'm confused. Also, what does that mean - the seriousness of it?

"Yes, the government is despicable, but it is also not representative of the people of Iran"

Hey, looks like we have something in common!

Congratulations to my boyfriend Glover!!!

what is the comparative output power/work between Nicole and Glover?

both of them used 95lb for the OHS but Glover had to travel further, no?

Anybody else pretty beat up from yesterday? My whole body is just spent.

I don't even know who Glover is and didn't until I read the link above...but he's one big strong dude....I kept shouting GO GO GO during his muscle ups.

AWESOME!!

jsipko, in the REAl world, religion is not going to be done away with, it doesnt much matter what peoples stated motivations are and whether or not it's for land, wealth or religion. In the REAL world a religiously obsessed madman is closing in on a nuclear arsenal and he's openly stated his intent to destroy another nation with it. The players in this game are immune to your interpetation of reason. Trust me, they're not going to hold hands and sing kum by ya anytime soon. Some very localized global warming is likely to occur unless there's an intervention of some kind before too long. i'm not advocation military action by the U.S. against Iran but the threat of an international coalition might be a decent place to start after Iran gets done laughing at the UN sanctions and empty rhetoric.
For you doves out there. There's no such thing as "peace at any price". That mindset will only net conflict on someone elses terms.
Drilling in ANWAR and off shore would be a good starting point to being able to tell Iran where to stick their oil. K-

Newbie question: When performing a Samson stretch, does your rear knee touch the ground, or not?

Excelent vid, BTW. Nicole. WOW!

Glover is a beast

Agree with #74. Calling religion silly or hoping for peace does not change reality. Radical islam is not logical, it's a fanatical religion that sees absolution in the extermination of jews and christians. It is hard for us very logical Americans to understand the irrationality of it. They don't care about sanctions. They don't care about war. Their way is the way of destruction at any cost.

On a lighter note, the video was awesome. I was overwhelmed with motivation after watching!!! Cool stuff.

I got the chills watching that video! Way to go Glover. You folks at CF HQ do an amazing job!

#62

had the same problem with the capillaries around the eyes. Keep your eyes open when doing Handstand pushups or any inverted variation. Involuntarily squeezing my eyes shut when straining is what seemed to cause mine.

#75

From what I understand, you want your knee to touch during the Samson stretch. Try and focus on keeping your forward foot and your down knee far enough apart to get a good stretch in the hip area.

great video of two badasses.

did a 5k on treadmill
incline 1.5
started at 6.3 ave speed 7.2

total time 25:56

Shock and Awe...some video! Nicole and Glover, you guys rock!

Day behind. "Linda" with upped weights (CFT Ratio 75%), details there.

28:12

FRIDAY 070216

2k row
7:26

"Fran"

Three rounds, 21-15- and 9 reps, for time of:
95 pound Thruster
Pull-ups

13:46

2k row
11:14

Still weak because of Monday´s 3-3-3-3-3-3-3 Deadlifts.

Glover- Phenomenal work, brother. That was awesome!

Nicole - As always, a perfect picture of determination, poise, and beauty.

Thanks for the article Coach.

I thought it revealing and rather chilling that Ahamdenutjob says the annilation of Israel is merely prelude to Islamic conquest of the entire world. But that has been the avowed mission of the religion of peace for 1400 years, so we should not be surprised.

JUS #274 from ystd (calculas/physics lesson)

Brilliant, just bloody brilliant. And your conclusion, priceless!

"I thought it revealing and rather chilling that Ahamdenutjob says the annilation of Israel is merely prelude to Islamic conquest of the entire world. But that has been the avowed mission of the religion of peace for 1400 years, so we should not be surprised."

I honestly am more scared of Israel than Iran. Here is a country that is the sole nuclear power in the area, is occupying land for over 40 years and is quick to throw its weight around with its massive army. I honestly cant blame Iran for wanting nukes. Zionists dont actually want peace with everyone around them either.

Also, Lauren, you are jewish but I think it would be great if you kept your obvious biasness out of crossfit. I love coming to this site and love working out because it gives me a little away time. There are tons of sites that would better fit this topic.

Some sites that would better fit your view points:
http://www.haaretz.com/
http://www.jpost.com/
http://www.ynetnews.com/

All these are Israel newspapers sites that would go hand in hand with your view points and also would be terrible resources to get some unbiased info from.

Comment #87
Spoken like a true Bigot! Massive Army? Israel? Why don't you pull out a map and figure out how big Israel is compared to the rest of the ARAB world (or just IRAN) and then do the Math. Oh wait, you must have flunked that subject based on your remarks! You obviously don’t know the history of the region or don’t want to know the history. Most Bigots just want to believe what they want.
“Ignorance, is not knowing the facts, stupidity is knowing and choosing to ignore them.” I believe you resemble the later!
Sound like you need to do some traveling in the Middle East!

I am sorry Lysa. I did not want to come off like a "Bigot" in any way. When I said massive army I meant in terms of his military strength compared to its neighbors and its capacity to really wipe out any nation in the area. But I am surprised you did not call me anti semetic too since I disagree with your viewpoint.

No sense in arguing with you Jeff. You are what you are. Anti Zionist, like it or not, IS anti-Semitic no matter how you try to mask it. You should stick to the Cross fit work outs and keep your hate filled opinions to yourself.
I have no problem with folks who disagree as long as their arguments are based on intelligent facts and not hate.

Jeff

Israel might have a "massive" army, nukes and stuff, but ya know, I don't recall ever reading about Israeli suicide bombers walking into weddings or coffee shops and pickling off an explosive vest.

No Israelis have driven planes into two skyscrapers, nor did they attempt to blow up those same buildings a decade earlier.

I haven't heard if Israelis make children's cartoons which depict Muslims shooting and killing mothers, grandfathers and brothers of the characters, all while laughing.

I have never read about Israelis driving an explosives-laden boat into an American warship.

I've not seen anything about Hassidic Jews blowing up the synogogues of Reform Jews because they believe slightly different things.

I don't recall ever seeing anything about Israel acting like that.

And...all this time....they've had nukes, yet they haven't used them.

Could it be they are not the monsters you want them to be?

I think this cartoon captures the true essense of your radical Muslim/terrorist buddies better than I can explain:

http://content.practicaltactical.net/Pics/Fun/axisvsallieds.jpg

Have a great day.

TimW
Phoenix

is this a workout site or another arm of the right wing propaganda machine?

Jeff..

Were you refering to Lauren Glassman?

I don't know you but I don't think I have ever seen someone out of the blocks be so disrespectful. If you have a different opinion, so be it. You want to be anti-Semite/Zionist...whatever.

You want to get into some sort of web/internet pissing match you can start with me or someone else on the other side of the ideological isle.

I have never seen Lauren post on rest days. Coach rarely does. I fail to see why you need to bring them into this.

Have a take and do not suck.

Tim W...

Great depiction.

I find it ironic that over and over as soon as "calmness" breaks out in that region the Israelis try to rebuild and the Palestineans are at each other's throats...until of course they make up and then refocus their rage at Israel. It is obvious who want instability and violence to rule the day.

If the Palestineans lay down their arms, there will be peace.

If Israelis lay down their arms, they will be destroyed.

That is the simplest way to identify who is to lay a majority of the violence at their feet.

The situation in Iraq is the same. Ask yourself... What will happen to Iraq if the Coalition pulls out to early?

Will there be peace?

or

Will extremists run roughshod over the population?

Beauty & the Beast. Beauty remains undefeated. Previous post calling it "Two Badasses" is right on. You two are world class.

Thanks, Tony, for the work on the videos - fresh motivation to go get some more.

#87, #88, Jeff,

"I honestly am more scared of Israel than Iran."

"Also, Lauren, you are jewish but I think it would be great if you kept your obvious biasness out of crossfit."

Don't kid yourself, Jeff. You're not scared of Jews. You hate Jews. You hate the fact that they and/or those who support them express their opinions within your view. That's not fear. It's hate.

The video of Glover & Nicole is great. I love watching Nicole take on the big guys. A great inspiration for me.

I'm using my second post ever on this forum to make a request: No more Meatloaf. Ever.

Please. Make it stop. If we ignore Meatloaf, he'll go away.

Kim, hell yes!

Nicole is simply fabulous and amazing. You go girl!

Jeff,

Welcome to the CrossFit Rehab Center for Jew baiters. You’ll find Mel “Are you a Jew?” Gibson had your room last, but he was released when the medics discovered alcohol causes anti-Semitism. Before that, Jesse “Kykes” Jackson was discharged because he had a valid Democrats Get-Out-of-Jail-Free card.

You’ve managed to turn this strand into the first restless day.

For penance, you have to recite Tim W.’s and CCTJoey’s posts 30 times from memory.

A couple of additional points about your hot-button references to Zionists and “occupying the land for over 40 years”. You’ve been educated by some of the most virulent propaganda ever produced. Mein Kampf, Errata. Arabs and Iranians don’t hate Jews. Why, just ask them. They hate Zionists, the Jews in power in Israel, those who took their land. They just want justice in the Middle East by Israel returning the occupied lands.

Occupying is another Arab/Iranian code word. To the morons who run Europe and the US, and their media, the Arabs are talking about bits of the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan Heights. Why, surely that can be negotiated, and Hezbollah and Hamas can return to their peaceful farming under the ever watchful eye of the UN.

To the Arabs, the code word "occupy" refers to the entire State of Israel.

As if the Arabs were doing anything with the land anyway! As if the gypsy Palestinians were just on the verge of setting up a nation state there.

I believe you when you say you fear Israel more than Iran is clear. I fear Israel, too. We’re just a couple of Dems from losing the War on Terror. They’re trying to relive their victory for Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh City. When that happens, Israel is going to be ready for plucking. Jihadists will be massing at the border, and Iran will be this close to having a nuclear weapon. Israel again is going to tread where Bush is too timid to go. It won’t be pretty.

On the other hand, you’re an apologist for the puppet Ahmadinejad and the Ayatollah Geppetos. You’re safe; you’ll get eaten last. Keep fit.

Support the Troops.

Let's pull a page out of the Zach playbook, and look at this quote with fresh eyes: "The life-curve of the American regime has begun its descent, and it is now on a downward slope towards its fall. . . . The American regime will be wiped out, and humanity will be liberated."

Or: "The life-curve of the Iranian regime has begun its descent, and it is now on a downward slope towards its fall. . . . The Iranian regime will be wiped out, and humanity will be liberated."

Put the latter in Bush's mouth. How many of you Lefists would be frothing at the mouth?

Iran committed an act of war in taking over our embassy back in 1979. Their proxy, Hezbollah, attacked us repeatedly in Lebanon, killing hundreds. They are supplying the bombs that are killing most of the Americans now in Iraq.

I would ask simply: since Hitler, where have we seen such perfect conformity between rhetoric (Main Kampf, where he told the truth, not the speeches given for Chamberlain &Co. benefit), and action? Why shouldn't we take him at his word? And if we take him at his word, why shouldn't we, at a bare, bare, minimum, be ENACTING, and not just debating, increased sanctions? Wouldn't that represent a starting point, and not an end point?

I used to like to ask Leftists questions, but I've learned, they lack the intellectual integrity to answer them directly and honestly. Therefore, I will posit the following questions, rhetorically:

If Iran gets a bomb, and uses it to nuke, say, Tel Aviv (Jerusalem also being an Islamic holy site), what response do you think would be appropriate?

Should America get involved?

Should we be outraged if Israel lobs 5 bombs back, disproportionate as that would be, which is obviously unacceptable to some, as we saw in the outrage over Israel's response to Hezbollah's unprovoked rocket attacks on Northern Israel?

How about if Israel takes the rhetoric about a Second Holocaust (which didn't happen, but wasn't enough) seriously, and launches a preemptive strike?

Actually, I know the answer to that one. The leftists froth at the mouth, because Israel--which they hate--didn't wait to take in on the chin, like a well behaved little nation.

Saddam Hussein killed a hundred, maybe a thousand times, more Muslims than Israel has in her history, while fighting for survival from repeated efforts to push her (or rather her Jews) into the sea.

So it's obviously not numbers killed, and if you look at any of a half dozen African situations, more refugees were created, that resettled elsewhere, and started new lives. It's pretty straightforward: if you start a war, you need to win, or not whine about the results. The UN created Israel, the surrounding Arab nations tried to crush it, they failed, and the people displaced either voluntarily or through military action in the course of that conflict were placed in refugee camps, from which no Arab nation will rescue them, even about 60 years later.

So why do leftists have such an obsession with Israel? In my view, it is in no small measure because they believe what Arab propagandists tell them. Why do they believe them? Because they are programmed to side with "victims", and since the Palestinians, and--now--the surrounding Arab governments, are inferior militarily to Israel they must ALL be victims.

The logic is quite simple. The Palestinians claim "victim" status. Because they are manifestly poor, they are granted said status readily. Then, who to blame? Well, the Arab nations uniformly claim they want justice for them, so it can't be the Arabs. The Palestinian leadership proclaims--reasonably often--that it just wants peace and justice, so obviously it can't be them. So who is left? Well, obviously it is not difficult to produce pictures of Israelis soldiers patrolling "Palestinian" streets, and if we ignore why they are there, it becomes OBVIOUS that the Israelis, having the jets and tanks, the "bomb" and--hell, let's call them what they must be: Jack Booted Thugs--must be responsible. Down with Zionists!!!!

Yes, I really do think leftists are that dumb. I'm probably being overly generous, in fact.

And if leftists are mainly repeating that line of thinking, coupled with the "talking points" their Arab allies give them, what is the aim of the Arabs?

In my view, they literally believe they can retake Israel. Essential to this strategy, though, is ensuring that Israel is ALWAYS roundly condemned, even for what to any rational mind would be seen as appropriate, or even--in the case of Lebanon--overly tepid measures. ALWAYS. ALWAYS.

And to do this, it is essential to remove context. It is essential to make ALL aggressive actions by the Muslim Brotherhood, or Hamas, or Fatah, or Hezbollah, etc, DEFENSIVE in nature, in much the same way some men have to beat their wives, because the wives were threatening them. Right?

On a larger scale, I wanted to comment on how intellectually club-footed it is to conflate "belief" in general, and the CONTENT of that belief. For example, to demonize RELIGION in general, rather than look to see if that religion is in fact being practiced the way it was supposed to be. Was the White Album evil because Charles Manson thought it was telling him to kill? I don't think that case can be made.

More broadly, it is interesting to me to--just as a thought experiment--posit reality in the form of some sort of purposive power to the notion of Deity. The side WITH Deity wins, and the side without it loses. If we do this, then it should be obvious to anyone with a brain that the Naqba--the Arab defeat in 1948--was the will of Allah. Given the sheer numerical and logistical disadvantages of the Jews, they should by all rights have lost. They also should have lost in 1973. If God exists, and we posit what happens in this world as evidence of His Will, then it is clear He is on the side of the Jews. That seems clear enough.

Now, if we look further, we can posit LOSING the support of Allah as almost definitionally one of a lack of righteousness and probity. A lack of TRUE submission.

Now, it seems clear enough to me that Islam must have some sort of notion of Justice, and righteousness. Are there in existence any regimes today that could plausibly be construed as righteous, by any reasonable criterion, which does not postulate barbarity as a facet of Islam?

In my view, there was much that was positive that the Prophet Mohammad offered. Where tribes were living in constant conflict, they were unified, and pacified. In history, any time you see empires arise, small scale violence within that area largely ceases.

Yet there has been intra-Muslim violence since the Shiite/Sunni schism when Ali was murdered. One might reasonably ask: is this what the Prophet intended? Is this in fact righteousness and submission? Can either side be fully right or wrong? It would seem obvious beyond the need for discussion that Muslim on Muslim violence in beyond the pale of righteousness.

And yet what do we see today? Who oppresses most Arabs? Other Arabs. Who oppresses most Muslims generally? Other Muslims. Who is doing most of the killing today in Iraq? Muslims. Afghanistan? Muslims.

Can this be what the Prophet intended? Muslim suicide bombers blowing up Muslim civilians? I can't believe there is any peace on His soul while that is going on.

Ahmadinejad himself is perverting his own belief. Shiites believe that, someday, the Hidden Imam will manifest, AT A TIME OF HIS CHOOSING. Herr A., like a child, seems to believe that patience is no longer a necessary virtue, and that the Imam can in effect be extorted into appearance through the creation of his necessity in the defense of the Iranian people, as a result of an attack they launched. Yet what scriptural basis does he have for this? And if he has none, then he may as well be an apostate, a grave crime in Islam.

George Bernard Shaw--and avowed atheist and socialist agitator/Fabian--once commented that "Christianity would be a fine thing, I suppose, were anyone to practice it." I would lay the same claim at the feet of Muslims. The goal is not particularly the implementation of Sharia. It is submission, in the heart, to the will of Allah, and righteousness. I see little to no righteousness in the Islamic world, at least in the public space--the Taliban was a hideously monstrous perversion of what was surely intended--and the Iranian regime is yet worse. They should therefore keep in careful consideration that if they are not as virtuous as they think, and they act in the ways they seem to intend, that no power in heaven or earth will save them.

Mr. Glassman... Thanks for batting clean up.

Barry...that is a great post...wish you had been able to write it 3 days ago. I suggest you save that for a later discussion...there is a lot of good solid points.

"I used to like to ask Leftists questions, but I've learned, they lack the intellectual integrity to answer them directly and honestly."

"Yes, I really do think leftists are that dumb. I'm probably being overly generous, in fact."

I see in the above quotes, that I am rubbing off on you. congradulations :)

Did 5 pulls\10 push\15 squats
Each round progressed 5 reps for 30 minutes
Total 6 rds

Barry, and others,

I suppose I'm what you'd call a "Leftist."

I don't support the war in Iraq, though it's the policy direction I don't support. The troops themselves need to be given the tools and means to accomplish their missino - 'cause it isn't their fault that the project was ill conceived.

But I part company with the "leftists" you mention when it comes to Israel. Both sides in this perennial conflict have blood on their hands. Both sides have over-reacted at times, and shown generosity at other times.

But the only way, the ONLY way the killing will stop, is by talking. Not by shooting, or sending suicide bombers, or building walls. By talking, and deciding that enough men, women, and children have died. Forgiveness doesn't require justice - it requires a willingness to see injustice, and forgive anyhow.

I'm a big, though relatively new, fan of Crossfit. I believe in providing soldiers and others with the skills, training, and tools they need to do their jobs - and believe that even in a poorly considered war, they can and regularly do serve proudly and well.

But that doesn't make the policy that sent them there right, and it doesn't make the solution to broader conflicts in the Middle East any different.

As to the Iran nuking Israel scenario ... I cannot believe that Iran would be so stupid as to launch a nuclear strike. Iran's leaders need Israel and the US as enemies, to justify their own fierce rule ... hence the rhetoric. But Teheran would be turned to glass in retaliation for a nuclear strike, if not by the US, then certainly by Israel. Nobody's under any illusions.

Maybe, just maybe, we in the West need to consider what actions we've taken over the decades that have made Islamic extremism more attractive than what we offer as "democratic" capitalism. Frankly, our relations with much of the rest of the world have always been pretty much about us and our gain, at their expense. Not the best way to make trusting trading partners, let alone friends.

Tom.

Tom,

The Iranians believe they will be protected from retaliation by the appearance of the Hidden Imam, and if that fails, Herr A. is saying he's willing to take the casualties. That is the whole point of this discussion.

With respect to talking: what benefit has EVER accrued to the Israelis from talking? You can figure out all you need to know about the Palestinians by looking at their past behavior and ignoring their rhetoric, which is aimed precisely at simple-minded liberals who assume that, at root, we all just "want to get along". That simply isn't true.

With respect to what we did to foster Islamic extremism, as far as I can tell it principally consists in not being Muslim. Should we all convert? That's what they want. Read their speeches.

For those interested in actually learning more about the history of the Arab-Israeli conflict, I found the following website, which appears to be pretty accurate: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/1948toc.html

CCTJOEY, Barry, Tom F,

The most sincere and kind leftists remind me of Nick Burg - they're ideal candidates for having their heads sawed off.

I actually worry about guys like you, Tom F, and our Russ Greene, visiting the middle-east (outside of Israel) to advance the cause of peace through "talking".

With the greatest respect, show me a war, with the exception of WWII, that both finished and *stayed* finished without talking. Without negotiating. Without arriving at a political settlement that both sides were willing to live with.

Military victories that don't include a negotiated settlement have a way of flaring up again - as in the suppression of hatreds in the Balkans, for instance, that emerged after decades of silence when the Soviet empire fell apart. WWII itself was a classic example of the humiliation of one side (Germany) in WWI festering, enabling the rise of nationalism and hatred for the second round of the same war.

How long have folks been at it in the Middle East? More escalations of violence have rather not brought that to a conclusion. Without the sides talking to each other, Bosnia's still another massacre waiting to happen.

In contrast, Northern Ireland now has a glimmer of a hope, not because somebody succeeded in blowing the other side away, but because folks have tried to stand down from violence ...

I'm not naive enough to think that individuals should go traipsing into Iraq as peacemaker shields. Coach, I agree that's a great way to lose one's head. But neither am I willing to believe that a military solution, without all sides being able politically to live with the outcome, will stay solved. History's proven otherwise too many times.

t.

I just read the article and the posts and was wondering how many of those who thought that the article was biased actually know anyone who lives in Israel or has lived there or visited there. The United States unfortunately got a taste of what life is like every day for Israelis when September 11th unfolded. That fear is present every day for civilians in Israel. And Lysa- way to go on your history lesson. People really have no clue just how tiny Israel is compared to its neighbors. It just amazes me how people spew their uneducated opinions as "fact" without having even the slightest sense of what the reality is for people who live there. And as a child of a Holocaust survivor- I wish more people would write these kind of articles. Lysa-wherever u live I hope to meet u one day and take u out for lunch!