Very interesting link. Will come back to it and give it a proper read.
I'm currently in a survey course of world military history where we covered the rise of Islam in a lecture or two, so this is a nice paper to add some more detail.

Great video!

Great video, Molly & CFN trainers!

Did anyone actually read the WHOLE article posted?

I just took a look at the AOFP Crossfit Austere Program. God Bless you. I could have really used this when I was a Team Sergeant. You guys are the best.

De Oppresso Liber,

Billy

Great, grreat video! Very informative and appropriate for those new to the Crossfit concept.

I would have never thought a 3/4 inch PVC pipe could solicit such acute awareness of upper trapezius fibers........every silly strand. I learned alot in just 2 hours this past weekend.

Coach B is a great asset to the CF community and a class act. Thanks also to the blue shirts who helped out at 7am on a blustery Sunday morn.

Awesome video. Congrats. and hats off to CrossFit North.

Thank you
jaison

What's up, I am a muslim and let me be honest, I love Crossfit been doing it for about a year now, and frankly, I feel like if I ever went to a Crossfit certification I would literally get my Ass kicked,I got a big beard and look like your average garden variety terrorist. Alot of crossfiters have lost friends and family at the hands of muslims, You name workouts after your fallen Brothers. I respect that!

The Crossfit Martyrs (with all due respect)

I dont know ? maybe I watch to much movies? I would hate to be in a room with a spec ops dude that can do FRAN in under 5 minutes you know what I mean, He could have a flash back and BOOM there goes a 45 lbs plate in the back of my head. I don't mean to offend anybody I'm just being honest. Sorry I can't comment on the essay, I would end up writing a essay.

Peace Crossfit!

Ken, #4:

I read the whole article this morning before I put on my ACU's and went to work at Camp Liberty, Iraq.

Here are some observations. Forgive the typos, I've not had my coffee yet:

The author analyses a work that he admits is in limited circulation. He compares and contrasts it to Van Clausewitz' "On War". I would venture that "On War" is just as limited a work. Certainly I have only a passing familiarity with it, and that because I'm in the military.

However, "On War" is a secular work about waging war, centered on socio-economic and political reasons. "Quranic Concept" is not.

"Quaranic Concept" is insightful because it gives an Islamic perspective on the nature of war as a part of Islam and a part of the spread of faith. The author cites Islamic battles from 1000 years ago during the Jihadist phase of Islamic expsansion. There is little in the way of formal Islamic war in the last few centuries, except for state funded terrorism.

It provides some understanding of how fundamentalist groups view the use of terror, and how they find justification in the Koran for that use.

Ultimately the article has an "academic in an ivory tower" feel to it.

As a citizen-soldier, and a believer in educated discourse, I hope that this rest-day topic does not dengenerate like some of the previous ones have.

#9,

In the US military, Muslims fight along side Jews, Christians, and atheists. True patriots will not condone attacks on anyone based on their race, color, creed, or religion. Given the generally high patriotic sense among cross fitters, I think your concerns are misplaced.

Thank you all for the kudos.

I'd like to really thank Molly Hawkins for her work and vision creating that video for us. Mollys website is girlandcamera.com

Great video, well done CrossFit North!
Now im gonna copy the idea and make my own at some stage ;)

As an aging cold warrior who's shifted his center of gavity to the GWOT I can make the folling comments from my not so ivory tower at FOB Taji. I recall quite well how in the pre Regan years the difficulty was getting many Americans to accept that we had an enemy who meant us harm even though we'd done nothing to deserve it. I see it again all to clearly. The points brought out in the article are understated if anything. the islamofacists feel they've given us the nessessary call to peaceful conversion. Now we're targets for all means fair and foul. Religion of peace? Only in the liberal press.
# 9 Abdullah joins the parade of muslims who fail to condem or deny legitimacy to the brutality. #11 Hari, muslims may serve with us to some extent in our military but they also serve against us as in fragging their commanders in Afgahnistan or acting as spies like the chaplain at gitmo. Pefectly in accordance with the koran to lie to decieve one's enemies in the name of jihad. Like we're being lied to by the so called 'muslim leaders we see on TV.
#10 Bayendor, The reference to Clausewitz made a good point, we haven't a philosphy of war so much as a battle doctrine. Clausewitz's point was that war is an extension of politics by other means. A glance at our polarized electorate and Morass of a congress tells an enemy such as Al Queda that we're not coheisive enough to endure a multi generational war. At least not until the average american believes he has real enemies, and can go to a map and point to where they live. K-

"THE LEGITIMACY OF BRUTALITY"?

Seems to me we fought another fanatical army of the faithful (Imperial Japan) not too long ago and won. Takes determination and fortitude. Islam's fanatics are many, but do not make up the whole of all Muslims (or at least that's my hope anyway). Interesting read and definitely offers some insight into Islam's role in the current conflict.

I think if the leaders in the Muslim world were to take a stand against those who radicalize their religion, we'd be at peace. However, I think most of them are either in bed with the terrorists or openly support warfare against the US and the coalition. Bush had it right when he said you're either with us or with the terrorists.

In the long run, we'll win. Not because we're a society based on Judeo-Christian beliefs, but because we truly are a nation of peace and right, while those whose tenants are based on fundamental radical Islamic terrorism are based on subjugation of the weak and poor, evil, and absolute domination. Freedom, my friends, will carry the day!

Semper Fi

Lovely video :) it should go on TV!

Ignorance is a disease, 16# and 14# infected, possibly terminal. I am neither for american politics or terrorist politics, which would make me a terrorist by Bush's standards. Terrorist is just a label, used in this time of mass produced logos hegemonically reinforced through the media, to signify anyone who doesn't trumpet the dominant ideology.

In the long run, 16# you'll lose, because it's not your country and your nations leaders don't care about peace. " (American international relations) are based on subjugation of the weak and poor, evil, and absolute domination. Freedom, my friends, will carry the day!"

#14,Kman,

"[M]uslims may serve with us to some extent in our military but they also serve against us as in fragging their commanders in Afgahnistan or acting as spies like the chaplain at gitmo."

Similar acts of treason have been committed by non Muslims. I am in complete agreement with your point of view concerning "Islamofascists." However, I think we can agree that while all Islamofascists are Muslims, not all (or even most) Muslims are Islamofascists.

Hello Im a Turkish crossfit fan with lots of respect for the armed forces of any nation, but a lot less respect for narrow minded political doctrines, regardless of origin.
A few points:
1) Islam does not mean peace, it literally means submission (to gods will).
2) Terrorism is not Jihad in the sense that the Prophet (SAV) waged it. It is cowardly, decietful and basically murder.
3) The "Shock and awe" attacks on Baghdad were as despicable an example of brutality as any in history.

kind regards

#17, Lee,

"I am neither for american politics or terrorist politics, which would make me a terrorist by Bush's standards. Terrorist is just a label, used in this time of mass produced logos hegemonically reinforced through the media, to signify anyone who doesn't trumpet the dominant ideology."

This statement doesn't make you a "terrorist by Bush's standards." It simply qualifies you as a nut.

I found the article insightful and well written. How different the mentality of a unified spiritual motivation for war from our morality justified and economically tied reasoning for military action. The US subscribes to the universal morality theory and attempts to do the right thing that way, but it's a hard sell to the US people, who get in the way of the will of the army. To be facing an enemy united by religion transnationally is very dangerous indeed. More dangerous to think that killing them by the tens is only expanding their perceived martyr pool. To really defeat the enemy, we must strike terror into their hearts and challenge what they believe with a resolve of a threatened culture. We in the military have the resolve and the will, but I do not think the general civiilans realize the magnitude and realitiy of the role they play. They dictate policy indirectly by their views: they must unite in a view that their way of life is truly being threatened. The enemy must know of this resolve and we must act to threaten them and their way of life. Bring on the heavy weapons and American Military might. Shock and awe on a transnational scale. Those who hold true to the philosophy of the essay are our enemies, as individuals and transnationally, no matter what country they hail from. Those who are more willing to honor their governments' alliance and have made their peace with us are our friends. The difficulty is threatening the right people and with the right amount of force to accomplish our political objectives.

Howdy
Work
{Ride (Airdyne) 3:00 at level 5; (:20 at ~level 9 and :40 at level ~3)x18; 3:00 at level 5}.
Duration 24:00
Distance 8.1 miles
HR following bout at one minute intervals ~170, ~130, ~110, ~105, ~100.
Push and pull work as well...

Off topic,but anybody know of any CF friendly gyms in the Indianapolis area or where to get coaching on oly lifts in area?

Row 8x 500m/1.00rest

ave 1:48:9 couldn't rest had to get some!

21# Hari: This statement doesn't make you a "terrorist by Bush's standards." It simply qualifies you as a nut.

Cashew or pea? Why does having an opinion differing to your own make me mentally unwell? Do you usually question the sanity of people who don't agree with you? What makes you a paradigm of reason? Your ability to insult and or your narrow-mindedness?

Bush says you're either for America, or against america (yes/no?). And those against are enemies -terrorists / axis of evil. Such bullying rhetoric has offended millions in recent times.

Therefore I reiterate my feeling, and suggest you improve your grammatical comprehension.
Quiet now, the grown ups are talking.

"can't we all just get along?"

I will get back to the Essay.

Am American is an American is an American...in my book. Until he proves himself otherwise.

Kman...those guys proved not to be Americans first...We have to make the attempt to take people at their word when they sign on the dotted line...after a background check of course:)
A Traitor is a Traitor no matter what his belief system.

Abdullah ...Hari is right. I believe there was a Muslim at the San Diego Cert that I truely was more interested in how he was so good at Muscle-ups than how his appearance differed from mine.

I think you would be very safe at a Certification. As one of those Spec Ops types you mention, I doubt you find little or any anomosity. I do not know ANYONE in the Special Operations who hurt an innocent Muslim and they would go out of their way to help a fellow CITIZEN and Crossfitter to the NTH degree. If anything you would be helping us with perspective if you were so inclined to converse of such things.

As a matter of fact I would love to converse with you anyway...feel free to drop my a line if you are up to it...I would appreatiate your perspective on some current events.

It also appears in #15 you are mis-reading K-Man's post.

Hari, I believe you are correct in #21, #19, and #11...I would like to believe that all of us can seperate all of a "type" of people from the actions of a few. That can be hard though. Perhaps more will share their thoughts.

Lee,

Do you want us to win in Iraq?

Lee #17-

It's obtuse thinking such as yours that will prolong the conflict indefinitely.

Let's see - with us or with the terrorists. The principle is pretty clear to me. You either support and approve of what the terrorists are doing to us and the rest of the civilized world, (which, Lee, you obviously do) or you're with us.

By "us" I mean the civilized world where we don't blow up innocent civilians with car bombs and commercial jets, where we allow freedom of speech and the general principles of liberty to reign, where we encourage freedom of religious beliefs and allow criticism of the government without fear of having our heads cut off by barbarians who would rather live in the stone age and worship some fake god whose "prophets" encourage said barbaric behavior.

In the end, those who hate and oppress will lose. The US doesn't oppress and hate (contrary to what you might think - again you're very obtuse, so I'll try to explain it). We're the most generous nation that ever existed. We pour more money and welfare on the world than any other nation - and we don't ask those nations to submit to our will and religion. We're the type of people who will fight our enemy on one block while handing out candy and building a school on the adjoining block. We're the type of people who will come across a wounded enemy combatant and provide extreme lifesaving medical care and evacuation to a field hospital. (Sure, we'll kill them too if they still try to resist and/or threaten us! That goes without saying - even police do that on the streets of every city in the US - so don't even go there.)

And, yes, Lee, we will win. It will take us some time to adjust our way of war somewhat (on all three levels - stragetic, operational, and tactical), but America loves freedom and we'll fight for it when threatened. One more terrorist attack on the US and the world will see just how we fight (as I don't believe we've truly begun to fight yet).

And, Lee, this is my country - the great US of A! If you're an American, you'd understand what I'm talking about. If you aren't, then you don't know what you're missing. (Other freedom-loving nations are in this category too - Australia, the UK, etc.)

Time for you and people like you to understand that these Islamic fascists will stop at nothing to control your life, take away your liberty, and end freedom - all in the name of Allah. If Islam is a peaceful religion, then those who practice it can put an end to this craziness, renounce terrorism, and get the rest of the Muslim world to do the same. Until they do, we'll continue the good fight.

Lee, and all you others out there like Lee, also need to remember that we didn't ask for this war. Though some would argue that we did by invading Iraq, we didn't fly the airliners into the WTC, we didn't kidnap and kill athletes at the Olympics, we didn't bomb embassies, we didn't blow up the Marines in Beirut, we didn't kill innocent travelers in airports, airplanes, trains, subways, hotels, and buses throughout the world during the past 30+ years. What kind of civilized culture does such things? The Islamic culture does and continues to condone these actions - even by the few fanatics of that culture/religion. It's time it ended, but apparently that won't happen until Muslims get a grip, figure out what's really happening to them and their religion, and put an end to this lunacy! But until that time comes, we'll continue to take the fight to the enemy.

Semper Fi

See not race nor creed, but those who oppose and wish to harm the country that we love.

If my post comes up...It will be clear that I agree with DJ on this one. I could give a Rat's A$$ about a guy's religion until it influences, in a negative way, our country.

This is one of those debates that I feel like I may regret even getting involved in, but I felt compelled to add my thoughts.

I worry about this idea that seems to be so prevalent, that there is a fundamental conflict between Islam and the West - Bernard Lewis' idea of a "clash of civilizations". I think this idea grossly oversimplifies a community of 1.2 billion Muslims whos speak hundreds of languages (only about 20% of Muslims are Arab, by the way). The fact is, most of the anti-American feeling in the Middle East is not because of a difference in values. The idea that freedom, social justice, etc. are incompatible with Islam is absurd. In fact, social justice and looking out for those less fortunate is one of the central tenants of the religion. While people like Osama bin Laden may believe in a fundamental clash of civilizations, and hate America simply for what it IS, most anti-American feeling out there is because of America's policies. Bin Laden's public statements to the wider Muslim world always focused on America's policies (support for Israel, stationing troops in Saudi Arabia, sanctions against Iraq, etc.) rather than on some fundamental problem with American values or way of life. Osama himself and others like him may have a problem with our values and society, but surveys in the Middle East repeatedly find that most people's problem is not with American values or American citizens, but with the policies of the US government. Of course, none of this justifies the killing of civilians, but many Middle Easterners who dislike America simply do so because they disagree with America's politics.

I just think it is vital that we realize that most anti-American sentiment in the world is not because of an unavoidable incompatability between American values/society and the Muslim world. It is a gross oversimplification and makes it much to easy to simply disregard the political views of millions of people as religious extremism. While extremists like al-Qaeda may believe that America and all it stands for is evil, those who simply disagree with American politics should not be lumped in with them as Islamofacists, jihadists, terrorists, etc etc etc. There are plenty of non-Muslims and non-Middle Easterners who feel the same way about America's politics, but aren't talked about in the same way because they don't fit the model.

Just my two cents.

#24.

Keep an eye on the affiliate list on the main page. I went to the cert this past weekend and worked out alongside a guy who is opening a CF facility in Indy called, oddly enough, CrossFit Indy. He is also a longstanding martial artist and, from my brief interaction with him, a decent fellow. Name escapes me right now - check with CF HQ?

#24.

Go here. http://www.shokfitness.com/ and ask for Jeff.

#9 - Posted by Abdullah

Hang in there Abdullah it's a rest day ritual. Don't expect a lot of new or cutting edge thinking on the rest days. It's the WOD that keep the majority of the people in the game. Notice the posts drop dramaticly on rest days. The slant of CF is heavily right wing and military in nature (our boys in the field need CF)and this is not changing. Expect a NEO-CON slant with a heavy dose of jingoism regardless of logic and reason and you will not be suprised.

The gift of grossfit is the workout...the philosophy is all fox news.

ricky
richmond

the gift is "crossfit" sorry not grossfit...no offense ment.

r

Ricky- If it slanted heavily to the "Left", would the philosophy be all CNN, MSN, ABC, NBC, CBS, etc.... ?

The gift of America is the right to free speech and thinking... the philosophy of some is to follow ,ignorantly, the miss guided dribble of others.

Ricky #36- No worries, I think 1/2 of us here are not the best spellers, nor the best users of Spellcheck. I probably head the group of such.

This is important...

“Terror is not a means of imposing decision upon the enemy; it is the decision we wish to impose . . . .” Malik’s divine principal of Islamic warfare may be restated as “strike terror; never feel terror.” The ultimate objective of this form of warfare “revolves around the human heart, [the enemies] soul, spirit, and Faith.”56 Terror “can be instilled only if the opponent’s Faith is destroyed . . . . It is essential in the ultimate analysis, to dislocate [the enemies] Faith.” Those who are firm in their religious conviction are immune to terror, “a weak Faith offers inroads to terror.” Therefore, as part of preparations for jihad, actions will be oriented on weakening the non-Islamic’s “Faith,” while strengthening the Islamic’s. What that weakening or “dislocation” entails in practice remains ambiguous. Malik concludes, “Psychological dislocation is temporary; spiritual dislocation is permanent.” The soul of man can only be touched by terror.

This passage encompasses the issue. Where we stand today, as Americans, is a result of this protocol. Though they might not admit it or even know it...Most on the Political Left and increasingly many in the Center and Right have fallen pray to this. I am comming to believe that they do not see how this is not going to stop.

The terror has worked and political power grabs in this country are only serving the agenda.

Below is what WILL NOT SINK INTO THE POLITICAL AND IDEOLOGICAL OPPONENTS OF MINE in this country...

Malik then introduces the informational, psychological, or perception management concepts of warfare. Echoing Sun Tzu, he states, that if properly prepared, the “war of muscle,” the physical war, will already be won by “the war of will.”55 “Respect” therefore is achieved psychologically by, as Brohi suggested earlier, “beautiful” and “handsome ways” or by the strategic application of terror.

When examining the theme of the preparatory stage of war, Malik talks of the “war of preparation being waged . . . in peace,” meaning that peacetime preparatory activities are in fact part of any war and “vastly more important than the active war.” This statement should not be taken lightly, it essentially means that Islam is in a perpetual state of war while peace can only be defined as the absence of active war. Malik argues that peace-time training efforts should be oriented on the active war(s) to come, in order to develop the Quranic and divine “Will” in the mujahid. When armies and soldiers find limited physical resources they should continue and emphasize the development of the “spiritual resources” as these are complimentary factors and create synergy for future military action.

I keep hearing about American Foriegn policy as the reason...yet, the Iran Hostage Crisis happened under President Carter and the planning of 9/11 happened under President Clinton, both of who did and continue to appease these people.

This fight is not going to leave us if we leave Iraq. It is happening in Europe as described above right now...and has established a foot-hold in our country. It will not belong until some city in Michigan or a neighborhood of one our major cities is a wash with violence and intimidation by these forces. They will claim oppression in order to gain sympathy from liberals throught the courts or local and state governments. The liberals will cave not truely for the reasons they will give...but sheerly to avoid bringing the situation to a head. Liberals will tie our own hands to avoid a fight.

The Islamo-fascists know it and are already doing it in Europe. The Emums on the plane a few months ago were either a dry-run for something horrible to come (terror) or to "secure" the ability for "special" behavior under the potential Suicide Pact that we call freedom of speech.

#21, Lee,

Actually, it was this sentence from your comment # 21 that leads me to believe you are a nut (as opposed to simply someone with whom I disagree):

"Terrorist is just a label, used in this time of mass produced logos hegemonically reinforced through the media, to signify anyone who doesn't trumpet the dominant ideology."

No, "terrorist" is not just a "label" or a "mass produced logo." Only a nut would assert that anyone who doesn't "trumpet the dominant ideology" would mislabeled as a terrorist. The people who fly airplanes into buildings are not simply people with a minority viewpoint. They are terrorists.

Correction to my Comment #40.

It should have been adressed to #26, Lee, and the quote was from comment #18.

Any clarification?

today I've got for time, 3 rounds in reps of 21, 15, 9 of: 65lb thrusters and pull-ups switching grib between over and underhand. My interpretation is as such...if so ouch!

Round 1: 21,15,9
Round 2: 21,15,9
Round 3: 21,15,9

#42 Case,

No. Like this.

1. 21 Thrusters, 21 Pullups
2. 15,15
3. 9,9

While I don't share Lee's politics or his assertion that anyone with a minority viewpoint is directly labelled a terrorist, I think he was probably referring to the argument some make that political dissent, especially involving war-related policies, is unpatriotic because it "helps the enemy".

Did CFT today. Written in saturdays comments. Ten years of bouldering does nothing for your squat...

#38 DJ

I concur in total. The gift of America is free speech and CF takes this to heart as well....as it should. Coach started it and can dress up his baby any way he wants.

It is my duty as a citizen of this country to be informed and active. Months ago we were reading on rest days how 1. we are winning the war in Iraq 2. Bush is a genius we just need to support him more. 3. global warming is a myth 4. The genius of Freedman's The World is Flat etc etc...

how much of this "information" is holding water now...and if you look at the facts CBS and the other "liberal" papers were much closer to the truth.....NOT THE SPIN BUT THE TRUTH.

No news source is unbiased! it's just weeding through the garbage to find bits of truth. Some also have a larger axe to grind than others.

r

28# barry - do I want us to win in Iraq? Win what?Some notion of democracy? Capture all the terrorists, bomb everything then export a new american ideologically sound culture there?

40# hari - terrorism as a label. A concept you obviously have difficulty with. Wikipedia says:
'Terrorism is a term used to describe violence or other harmful acts committed (or threatened) against civilians by groups or persons for political or other ideological goals'.

What I mean is that Big George and the dominant Anglo/american media hurl the phrase about with reference to increasingly broad spectrums of society who don't agree with their politics.

One may be forgiven for thinking that all terrorists are muslims from the tone of many on this forum. I wonder how long until venezulala joins the axis of evil and becomes a 'terrorist nation'?

I think, when I read the views of chest thumping naivettes on this forum offering carpet bombing of 'the enemy' etc that this is equally terroristic.

29# steve - if christianity is a peaceful religion, then those who practice it can put an end to this craziness, renounce undermining and destroying countries whose resources we want to plunder, and get the rest of the Christian world to do the same. I don't (obviously) support what terrorists are doing - the civilised world - what the hell does that mean? For years there were terrorists in Ireland. Does that mean Ireland is not civilised? Do the actions of the view represent the many? How far would you like America to go in persuit of freedom Steve? Grimly stating you will win and actually helping civilians are to my mind two separate things. It sounds like you don't think other religions have a right to exist.

I don't feel my freedom is threatened, nor do any of my peers. I don't think I'm better or worse than anyone else. I respect other cultures and disrespect fundamentalists of any nature. By fundamentalists I mean 'Movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles.'(wikipedia)

#26 0 lee-
You wrote- "Such bullying rhetoric has offended millions in recent times"
I would like to point out that generally, any time someone is offended by a statement, it is because there is a bit of truth in that statement and it is cutting close to the bone.

That is good that you don't feel your freedom threatened. That means that what our service men and women are doing is working and helping. I am also sure that on September 10 the people that died on September 11th didn't feel as though their security or freedom was being threatened.

#9 Abdullah-
The one thing that I would like to know is why aren't the peaceful, good citizen Muslims policing their own? Why have they given away their power to the extremists?

Kate

#47 - You know the truth has a well known liberal bias, right?

I love propaganda, err, I mean "rest" days.

Ricky- I do agree w/the opening and closing of your post. The meat of it on the other hand, I do not. Once again, the US public does need to weed through what is being put before it. It's sad that all you see is the death and destruction in the Middle East. Not the good. But then again, what sells papers? (Seeing the body count of American deaths, or seeing just how far we've gone in making a place that once was supporting terroist acts against the US and her allies) The US public has no comprehension on the fact that when war is won on the battlefield, the losing side doesn't quickly rebuilds it's self and everything is huny-dory (Read up on the happenings of post war Japan). Maybe people should try re-reading books that were written long ago, but still relate to today. Such as "The Prince" by Machiavelli. Then they would see just how far we've come in this phase of the war. And war is fought in phases.

Finally, I don't care who you are. No American publication, television channel, politican, etc... Should ever put down the President of the United States openly and publicly! All that does is show weakness and division in the country, which just aids the enemy. It's funny. I remember a previous President screwing things up, but never being put down so openly. He botched several miltary operations, that effect us today even. The economy wasn't as strong as it is right now. And he had an affair on his wife. But yet, the public media stood quietly. President Bush does what thinks is best for this country and what he feels makes it safer... He gets torn a part. He shows religious faith and values... He gets bashed and ridiculed openly via the media. I don't get it. Where have we as a country lost the way?

I didn't mean to bable there, but I got cought in the moment. Maybe I should take a writing class so my posts are actually coherent to others. Anyways, back to work. Uncle Sam doesn't pay us to sit around voicing our oppinions. But rather for our actions.

Arrrggghhh!!!

Lee,

I'll take that as a no. Winning is a viable, relatively peaceful Arab state that is reasonably just, moving towards democracy, and antithetical to Islamic extremism, and committed to the material and political betterment of its' people, and that needs little or no American military help to sustain itself, and protect itself from internal and external enemies. The opposite of what you imply you want by embracing poorly thought-out policies, as I point out below.

There is a thought error in implying that dissent DOESN'T help the enemy. Was Jane Fonda helping American troops by going to No. Vietnam calling them war criminals? Should we ignore the explicit comments by No. Vietnamese generals that the American anti-war movement was critical to their battlefield success? Should we ignore current Islamic terrorists who have claimed that Western public opinion is essential to their battlefield success?

Real people die--both American and others--when misguided and stupid people here give our enemies comfort and support. What should we call people like that?

If you don't want us to win in Iraq--and most American Leftists, if they are honest,don't-- then in order to have any credibility as anything other than a tool of our enemy, you have to show how LOSING the war is more consistent with our national security. If you can't show that, then you are a traitor, not a patriot. You are getting people killed.

You don't feel threatened? You're a sheep. You're lucky to have sheepdogs out there willing to defend your "right" to "feel" however you want, and express it in intellectually stillborn rhetoric.

(side note: Why do you think Hezbollah located so many of their rocket launchers in civilian areas? Was it for military benefit? They knew darn well the Israelis would hit them, since they were attacking the Israelis. No, they did it to evoke outrage in the Western press. That is the only reason, and it worked. If you extend that logic, it becomes plain to see that the leftists who screamed the most about the civilian casualties actually have that blood ON THEIR HANDS (in addition to Hezbollah and their Iranian sponsors).)

A leftist would have to show how a bloodbath culminating in a Shia or Sunni Islamic State constituted along the lines of the Taliban or the Iranian Mullocracy--i.e. politically repressive, undemocratic, and committed to killing Americans--is actually better for the people of Iraq, and better for Americans.

I don't think that case can be made. In fact, the case that the opposite effect--that of a dramatic decrease in our collective security would occur--seems to me so obvious that I'm just not sure how anyone who has carefully considered the matter can reach any other conclusion.

Al Queda has declared Iraq their front-line. We are fighting a Global War on Terror. In what respect does withdrawing from the front line move our line forward?

In point of fact, in reviewing leftist arguments, they all revolve around either "this war is difficult", or some version of conspiracy theory, which is necessary, since reality is unfortunately not currently amenable to their pipedreams of global peace through unilateral disarmament and disengagement. I suppose we could all convert to Islam, but that's not the best mileau for your typical liberal to cat around in.

As Joey pointed out, we were attacked in peacetime, out of the blue. This attack fit perfectly within a very consistent pattern dating back to the 70's of attacking Western culture--particularly as expressed in the "obscenity" of Israel, symbol of the "naqba"--through terror. As one sees repeatedly in their rhetoric, they view us as soft, decadent, and vulnerable, and frankly the soft, decadent rhetoric issuing from their Leftist fellow travellers does nothing but encourage them in that assessment.

There are two very simple questions here:

1) Do you want us to win in Iraq? If not, why? If yes, what is your strategy (that then becomes an issue warranting rational, fact-based assessment).

2) Does Israel have the right to exist in its' current form? If not, what form should it take?

Personally, I feel that all "religions" have done enough that their "right to exist" should be revoked. Particularly the three monotheistic Abrahamic faiths, as their "god" is particularly vindictive and harmful to humanity.

http://richarddawkins.net/images/RDFflyerIMAGINE4page.jpg

DJ I think we need to put this aside. I agree whith some of what you have to say and will respect your opinion but i feel it is highly biased.

r

There is no denying that CF rest days are biased to the right. There is also no denying that most major news is biased to the left. That is the reason I like to read posts on rest days it balances other sources I'm exposed to.

#30 Steve

I had to point this out

"By "us" I mean the civilized world where we don't blow up innocent civilians with car bombs and commercial jets, where we allow freedom of speech and the general principles of liberty to reign, where we encourage freedom of religious beliefs and allow criticism of the government without fear of having our heads cut off by barbarians who would rather live in the stone age and worship some fake god whose "prophets" encourage said barbaric behavior."

Freedom of speech, freedom of religious beliefs vs. "worship fake god"

???

I found that article insightful and accurate. I don't think it offers a very novel viewpoint, but since the information and conclusions seem to be correct, it can't be a step any way but forward if thinkers in our government were to read it.

It almost seems reductionist to state that people in the military and politics need to be appraised (again) of the long-term strategy of extreme radicals in the Muslim world. That's been done a number of times. You'd think that if anyone had paid attention to "Through Our Enemies' Eyes", either back when it was a training manual for the CIA or later, when it was published, instead of writing it off as another liberal-leaning tell-all -- we could all have had a pretty good understanding of the basis claimed by Muslim extremists for their war. The hijacking of the principle of defensive jihad to strengthen the position of radicals, and to justify clearly OFFENSIVE actions like terror attacks outside of a Muslim's home nation, was available for the world to take note of. But no one, on the right or the left in the US anyway, were taking it very seriously. It really seems as if the only people wise to the situation, and considering SERIOUSLY the strategy and resolve of organizations like al Queda, were a small handfull of the people working specifically on the bin Laden problem -- and not in the military, but in the CIA.

On a more general note: while Islam has more of a history of doctrinal violence than Christianity (ie, the Prophet himself led several bloody campaigns), the article is more of a review of a single book by a Pakistani general. And it's a very interesting article, although since none of the information about the motivation, justification or strategy of jihadists sheds new light, it really works more as a teaser that makes me want to get ahold of an English-translated version of that book!

But I think that any time we talk HONESTLY about the jihadist problem, as this article does, no one seems to be able to offer real solutions. It's a really hard problem.

And only once we start stepping away from the unpleasant, seemingly intractable reality do people suddenly become geniuses with plans that will solve the problem once and for all, IF ONLY WE HAD THE WILL ... right.

On both sides, we're told to imagine a world where we're hated, not because of a powerful campaign built upon accessible interpretations of our concrete policies, but because of who we are and because the Muslim world needs to be civilized.

On the left, we're told to imagine a world where brand names and Will & Grace will conquer some of the proudest and strongest peoples and institutions in the world, peoples who withstood and eventually humbled the Crusaders and the British and Soviet empires ... and, furthermore, that these inconsequential things can in any way change the game the radicals play, without giving up on certain policies in the Middle East (also not an option).

On the right, we're told to imagine a world where you can beat an insurgency with an occupation ... and then pray for that to happen, because even though it's never been done, THAT'S OUR PLAN. Imagine a world where the fuel we give to extremists, and the strength of their position and arguments, is a non-factor -- because, hey, they hate us REGARDLESS, so we may as well give them plenty of ammo. Imagine a world where we can buy off some of the proudest peoples in the world, and affect a serious and lasting change by doing so.

It's messy and well-nigh intractable, but what moves it into the category of GENUINE intractability is the unwillingness of the public and their politicians to speak genuinely about the true nature of the situation, and instead take whatever reductionist, imaginary worldview best suits their political ends at the moment.

#46 ricky --

The real issue is that American culture has become one of pop-ideology and lazy, fast-food educations. Very few, including most of us in this group, truly does their own research for the truth or even really knows why they believe what they do. It took me about three months of service and reading as much as I could get my hands on to really form what I believe to be an educated opinion. Most people, in fact, just watch the "news" networks that seem to agree with their opinions and wait to hear the so-called facts presented by apparent experts and call it gospel. Conservatives included.

I still believe in everything America stands for. I count myself extremely patriotic. I'm a fighter pilot currently serving on the ground in Iraq. However, although we may live in the greatest country on Earth we clearly have problems. There is a such thing as right and wrong. And when we protect poisonous ideologies and thinking under the guise of "freedom of speech" we are only doing our country harm.

I watch all the networks with an open mind, but with my values firmly in place, and I have yet to hear one single reasonable alternative plan to provide protection from this terrorist threat or a chance for a productive future for the people of Iraq. Anyone truly familiar with our operations over here and the well-thought out update that the President is implementing would at the very least acknowlege its motivations and crediblitiy, even if you don't like it or think you have a better answer. If there was a better way, don't you know it would be all over every news channel? But you don't. So for those who sit back and criticize because this war is a long, hard journey. Suck it up and stop complaining. The US military is going to take care of it...if the American people can stomach doing the right thing.

p.s. your right about one thing. crossfit is like a big right to the kidneys. God Bless!

#48, Lee,

"40# hari - terrorism as a label. A concept you obviously have difficulty with. Wikipedia says:
'Terrorism is a term used to describe violence or other harmful acts committed (or threatened) against civilians by groups or persons for political or other ideological goals'."

You're reference above is perfectly accurate. It also has nothing to do with your original statement:

"Terrorist is just a label, used . . . to signify anyone who doesn't trumpet the dominant ideology."

You now also write:

"One may be forgiven for thinking that all terrorists are muslims from the tone of many on this forum."

In fact, in my comment #19, I wrote just the opposite:

"However, I think we can agree that while all Islamofascists are Muslims, not all (or even most) Muslims are Islamofascists."

#24 --- I'm in indy and do CF workouts with another guy in town. Email me if you want to join, just get rid of the nospam part of the email address.

ABDULLAH... I would like to make it very clear...you would be in no danger from a Crossfitter... Spec Ops or not at a certification. To the contrary, I believe their was a Muslim at the Cert in San Diego that I attended...I think most of us were more concerned with his Muscle-up ability than his religion. I would encourage you to email me for a further discussion.

It also appears you may have mis-read Kman's post.

Hari... man I like your style.

DJ..GET BACK TO WORK!!!!

Barry...you know the answers to those questions...this is what I was talking to you about...you have entirely to much patience.

MR_LUC...I am picking up what you are dropping. However, at this point a more "in-your-face" policy is being employed to buy space and time. Which thus far it has worked...for the America. Sure there are downsides to every plan...and when you are fighting this enemy...talking has downsides, doing nothing has downsides, and fighting has downsides. The upside of fighting is, as now they are focused on the fight and we can dispatch more of them.

Andy...it was religious organizations that saved and fed New Orleans when the "government" was not up to the task.

More death and destruction has come from collectivist/secular governments in the last century that religion has in the last 2 millenia.

I say we outlaw collectivist governments.

Lee...what Christian governments are you talking about??

BTW, Lee, let me help you improve on your language. I speak Obfuscatorese, which is sometimes confused with Academese. The latter is merely a linguistic convention, the former is characterized either by actually woolly thinking or an intentional effort to confuse and mislead people. One does see both in the Academy, but most the time professors simply lack the ability to write.

This should have been your response: "The rhetoric of "winning" and "losing" is inherently a hegemonic discourse privileging a non-reality based discursive logic concealing the roots of power taken through forceful economic process from affected subalterns. As such, it is an redirectional tactic utilized by overempowered entities in the interest of racist, imperialistic agendas."

The beauty of this sort of thing is it is free from the need for context. There is no there there. You don't have to review history, adequately describe the present, or anticipate the future. Your conclusion is drawn, and you only occasionally have to draw in specific examples, like the Israelis "atrocities" in Lebanon, or that Abu Ghraib happened somewhere. Even those cases don't have to be closely examined, as long as they have shock appeal.

You establish, and then conceal, a very formal semantic logic that reads something like America< any complaining entity. Freedom is not freedom if America is involved. And overt autocracies--which is the direction Chavez is going--are "free" because they distinguish their regimes from America by criticizing us.

And you aren't "free", seems to be the implication, if the police won't let you protest naked downtown, urinating on an American flag while singing the Marseillaise, or the Government won't let you leak classified documents damaging to our cause, and which cost American lives.

Mr. Luc,

It's not accurate that an occupation has never worked. It worked in the Phillipines, as the example that is most directly relevant, as that also involved Muslim terrorists. The difference there, though, is they didn't have CNN on their butts praying they would screw up, so they could get a multi-week boost in ratings.

Joey,
I don't consider the dogmatic cult-of-peronality totalitarian regimes of the 20th century to be representative of what a rational secular government is capable. Far from it.

I also don't think religion is a prerequisite for compassion or charity. Just because religion has a few positive attributes does not make up for the harm it has caused.

And, although I think a world without religion is ideal, I hold out no hope that it is within reach.

Barry...nevermind what I said before...that was a solid response you just gave...even if I had to read it twice to get it all!!

Andy...I understand your response. I would point out that religion is normally voluntary, where as collectivist governments remove that choice, even moderate collectivist governments.

I would agree with your last sentence...I would like to modify it...

"and , although I think a world without PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THAT STEALING STEALING LIBERTY IN ORDER TO IMPOSE THEIR WORLD VIEW, I hold out no hope that it is within reach."

Wilson,

"The real issue is that American culture has become one of pop-ideology and lazy, fast-food educations. Very few, including most of us in this group, truly does their own research for the truth or even really knows why they believe what they do. It took me about three months of service and reading as much as I could get my hands on to really form..."

I totally agree with this statment and further argue this fast food thinking was relied upon by the current administration to advance this war. Never have so few in power relied on the laziness and stupidity of so many. I will argue that right and wrong is clear and worth making a stand over. Further I offer no profound solutions and have no earth shattering concepts to bring to the table. But what I know to be true is that this war is wrong, the American people were lied to (and thats why we don't support it) and we should have concentrated on Afghanistan and North Africa. Bush had an agenda and we as a country especally our "reporters" did no research to offset the spin. We jumped in to kick someones butt, anyones butt following 911 like a fired up teenager. Give me the right fight, the good fight and I am all in. This one isn't it.

Regardless of my opinion I truly thank you for putting your ass on the line. That is true of all our boys.

ricky
richmond

re-try...

I would almost agree with your last sentence...I would like to modify it...

"and , although I think a world without PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THAT STEALING LIBERTY IN ORDER TO IMPOSE THEIR WORLD VIEW, I hold out no hope that it is within reach."

CCTJoey,

Thanks for the awesome post. Lots 'o good posts, longer ones I printed to digest.

Abdullah, I think we'd have a grand time doing crossfit, whatever flavor of religion floats your boat. I have had the opportunity while in Iraq to learn enough about Islam to know it's as diverse as Christianity and therefore impossible to fully comprehend as a means of seeking the divine, and no doubt reflects the human failings of its practitioners as well as Christianity does.

I don't think any sort of hatred based religion can last long - it's self quenching.

It sure is interesting to see what the hatred of George Bush does to some peoples' minds.

Dreaming of the (libertarian) revolution ...

Get Fit or Die Trying !

NICE ;-)

Joey,
I must respectively disagree that religion is voluntary. The childhood indoctrination makes it very difficult to break out of. If one is raised up to say, age 18, with a pluralistic approach(all major religions represented equally), then allowed to choose, then religion would be voluntary. You are told from birth that this is the way things are, if you waver you will be damned to eternal hell. Add in the mutually exclusive desire of them to convert everyone else to their viewpoint, and you have a recipe for the current disasters(bringing in the huge ideological differences within the major groups, as well as between them).

Catholic v Protestant. Shiite v Sunni. Christian v Muslim. Hindu v Muslim. Conflicts too numerous to count worldwide. I wish I knew a way to get people to celebrate our similarities and work to better mankind, but these petty differences indoctrinated during youth make progress a frighteningly difficult task.

It saddens me greatly.

Does anyone CrossFit in the Lansing, MI area?

Andy...yes people are brought up in various ways...governments lock you up or kill non-conformists...religions do not...unless they are the basis for that government's power.

I'm going to let the Dawkins thing drop as it would take us too far out. I have very strong, very well thought out, and very critical opinions of him. He is, self evidently, among other things an outspoken leftist.

I will say, though, that there is considerably more reason to understand Nazism through the lense of sociobiology--as an honest expression of the notion of survival of the fittest and related notions of eugenics--than American foreign policy through the lense of Christianity. I'm not a Christian, and even if I were to become an atheist, my opinions wouldn't change. Religion is simply not relevant to notions of national security, even if common sense notions of right and wrong seem overly simplistic to some people.

Except in the case of Arabs, and it is relevant to them because they see secularizing, Scientistic (note, not "scientific"; they are two different animals) attacks on their culture and faith emanating from the West, through "our" outpost in Israel. So, to the extent that religion matters, it is the effort of people like Dawkins to destroy their religion, coupled with the manifold liberal assaults on common decency and human dignity, that creates the violence. If he were to actually practice tolerance, and if we all collectively were to actually embrace multi-culturalism as meaning something other than "blame Whitey", then we could do as well or better in avoiding violence, than in trying to eliminate Religion as a whole (of which Sociobiology is a subset, with the substantial distinction of having the least coherent or developed theology). Dawkins reads the Bible. I read Ernst Mach, Karl Popper, Stephan Jay Gould and Charles Darwin. I guarantee I can make my case with considerably more alacrity and honesty than he can make his. And without the intolerant bombast.

Dang, I got started. He's on my short list of most annoying, self righteously hypocritical human beings on the planet. I better be careful, or I'll say what I really think.

Question: was it worse when Jimmy Swaggart got caught with a prostitute he didn't have sex with, or when Dawkins got called out as having fabricated the story of the computer simulation of the evolution of the eye out of thin air?

I posted a question to Abdullah that I would like to have answered because I'm very curious as to the answer. I would believe that it would be a different sort of answer that would have come from a WWII German soldier, but it is the same sort of question. I do know tht there are some Islamic countries fighting against the extremists and I think it would be interesting to know how many are doing it wholeheartedly (not like how Pakistan is doing it).

I remembered now that Abdullah will not be able to answer my question because I posted it and I am a woman. So, perhaps I could impose upon the men of the community to either ask the question for me or direct me to some sort of article that may help me find the answer.

Please note that I am not offended in the least by this, some times things are as they are and I can accept that.

My question is- Why aren't the peaceful, good citizen Muslims policing their own? Why have they given away their power to the extremists?

Thanks, Kate

AWESOME Video Crossfit North!

barry coopper:

That's true, but

1) The Phillipinos, being an island nation, had a hell of a time when it came to the supplies needed to continue an insurgency. The actual majority of their fighters didn't even have rifles, of any kind, to fight with! Contrast with the Middle East, a place where arms will never be in short supply.

2) The entire Phillipine army didn't just go underground at the first sign of the overwhelming US offensive, but that's basically what happened in Iraq. The Phillipine army obligingly attempted, in the early years, to fight a "traditional" war, despite often doing so with a rifle for every three men.

3) The methods used to win the war in the Phillipines would not be acceptable to the voting public. You can't put this one on CNN's shoulders, either -- the actual facts were that the US had to use concentration camps and scorched-earth. Now, while some may choose to imagine a reality where most Americans WOULD support those policies if we could just remove that weakening, minority liberal media elite, that's exactly what it is: imaginary. In the real world, when it comes to the kind of force necessary to actually subdue this insurgency and win this war, it's not that the country is being stolen by a powerful minority of bleeding hearts. The reality is that the country doesn't think those policies are the kind of thing that America should be doing, period. And that's not likely to change soon, and it's not because of the media. It's because that's how Americans think.

Anyone who supports using the bloody levels of force necessary to really conquer the insurgency and stabilize Iraq is going to find themselves in the minority among their fellow citizens. That's not a terrible thing, and in fact, our freedoms of speech protect you as a minority opinion.

But recognize that a) this is harder than the phillipines (hell, we have to build a nation-state, not just democracy!) and b) even the tactics that worked in the phillipines aren't on the table, and the people preventing their use are your next-door neighbors, not some shadowy and corrupt elites.

The way to change that would be to, I guess, engage in discourse with your neighbors who feel differently, and support people who side with your views. Just like the minority of extreme liberals on the other side have to do, when they try to convince us that man-on-pumpkin sex is an inalienable right that should be taught to children.

To Abdullah or any other moderate Muslim...

Why aren't the peaceful, good citizen Muslims policing their own? Why have they given away their power to the extremists?

Ricky- Biased maybe... probably... w/out a doubt, just as much everyone else in society. But be sure, my oppinions are based on what I believe is best for this country. Not for myself. I agree though, we can put this to the side. Though I do enjoy debating. Enjoy the rest day.

CCTJOEY- Galley food BAD! Hard to get back to work after a gut bomb like I just had. How are things up north there?

DJ...SLOW!!!! Lots of studying right now...my mind is full of useful information and I am not used to that.

Freaking snow!!!...where is global warming at??

I took my shoulder out of socket on the WOD this morning..."Filthy Fifty". The last rep on the last exercise...a stupid double-under... must have been very fatigued. My brother-in-law was in awe as I put it back in..

DJ No Worries! We will resume this fine argument later. Again, respect and best wishes to all. Were all Americans looking to the best solution as we see it.

r

#72 Kate,

I'm sure you mean well, but to assume that Abdullah has not answered yet because you are a woman is taking it a bit far. I may be wrong, but our bearded friend does not sound like a fundamentalist, and refusing to address a woman over the Internet is pretty hardcore.

Regular "moderate" Muslim men look at and speak to women every day, just like many Christians work on Sundays.

Maybe Abdullah will come and clear this up himself - unless he has better things to do right now than read rest day comments, which would be perfectly natural.

P_J

PS: mr_luc gets my vote in today's battle of ideas, but who's counting?

CCTJOEY- I've felt your pain bro. I had 2 surgeries on my R shoulder partly for that reason. The Filthy-50 bites back.

Ricky- Rest day conversation = a WOD for the mind. I agree.

CCTJOEY, Barry Cooper and others with similar way of thinking.... I would like to ask your opinion on where do you draw the line between freedom of speech and being patriotic. This is an issue which caused much confusion to me (and also to other people by looking at the comments above).

Do we have freedom to express our opinions or we cannot critize our leaders since that makes us weaker ?

Do we have freedom to practice our choice of religion or only the ones which do not declare holy wars (aka Crusades) ?

Do we defend the right for free press or do we censor what is thought as politically not correct ?

Do we have a right of freedom of association or we draw special zones where you cannot protest and topics about which you cannot carry placards ?

Do we support the human rights (if there is such a thing) of all human beings or only the ones who are not enemy combatants, terrorists or just simily "not with us" ?

I know that this new enemy doesnt play nice or by the rulebook. They hide their soldiers behind civilians and project a twisted picture about their true motives. But the question is : can we win against them without dropping the principles of freedoms other generations have died for ?

Do not misunderstand me, I do not feel safe in this world, very grateful of all the soldiers who are sacrificing their safety for my (our) benefit. Also know that centuries ago we would not have debated this, just would have went in and killed them all.

However if you stand up in the western world and deny the Holocaust because that is what you have learned at the main university of your religion (in Riyadh), you get imprisoned in France and most likely arrested in the US for an indefinite period of time until charges can be found against you.

But if you establish the "Flat Earth Society" or even better claim that God created Earth 6000 years ago, then you are just pratcticing your beliefs or religion.

So, we have a tough stance against our enemies. But where do you draw the line between patriotism and freedom?

-some more food for thought work and family safe undercover video on UK mosques
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vtf0p2ScGPg

CCTJOEY,

Now I know better than to go after you being you are a true regular if not founding father, but I just wanted to suggest that it my not be fair to ask Abdullah to act as the voice of Billions.

ricky
richmond

Mr_luc,

Word! That explains my History teachers love for, "The Great Pumkin Charlie Brown".

I think there's a major flaw in saying that any one religion is responsible for terrorism or violence in any way. The real problem is fanataciscm. Hitler claimed to be acting as a christian, as did Cortez, and how many people did they brutaly murder? I consider myself a christian, in that I try to look to how Jesus lived, not listen to the doctrines that are meant only to control the masses, and have nothing to do with Jesus. Whether you're Jewish or Christian or Muslim or Hindu or whatever, I really can't believe that murder can be condoned in the name of God. If someone says it is, they are wrong. By saying that the Islamic faith is the reason for violence, you are avoiding the real issues and taking the easy way out. This kind of thinking has been a problem in our history, and we have to overcome it if we want to succeed as a just society.

CFT posted there. 620, PR by 10

Interesting, it takes me longer to do the CFT than almost any other WOD. I do the CFWU as usual, then warm up on each of the three exercises 5-3-1-1, then the CFT. Total 1 hour in the gym. Anybody else have this experience, or am I just being a leeeetle too compulsive?

D.J I agree with you but I'm not thinking with bias but with the knowledge that where ever there is "leaders that are commited to the slaughter of thousands and where humanity is being destroyed some one better care!I may not always agree with my leader but I will support him and beleive that he may know more than I do, and I do believe he is a good man and for what ever reason we are in Iraq does not matter now!We are in there and need to be a united front here if for know other reason than the fact we are one country under God and one people.United in this country we can stand anything and our men and women should have us behind then 100%.If I am wrong then time will tell, but I will have faith in my country and my god and know that where ever americans stand and fight we have over history done so with the best intent.

Ricky...I am mean know harm nor foul by my question. Perspective, if only one person's, about a subject that might be a difficult one for him to share, might be important to hear.

That question is not meant as an indictment...I am sure I could well be asked a similar question as a means for "Baiting" I am not trying to bait.

Abdullah appears to have offered a clear and peaceful post. His respect for our military and stated concerns of possible implications of him being a Muslim around us, make him a unique participant.

Please, feel free to go after me all you want...I am not a moderator or a Founding Father of Crossfit. At worst, you may not get a post through the filter/moderators...that happens to me as well.

4 laps of the mill (1720m)
then 2 rounds of;
50 Wall Ball (20lb ball)
25 GHD Back Extension
25 GHD Sit Ups
4 laps of the mill

time - 26.55

Bingo/Darrell- If you think about bro, there is a total of 15 total sets of lifts to complete the CFT right. Give yourself an avg break of :03 between each. That would equals :42. W/that in mind, an hour seems about right when you mix in warming up. Try warming up w/some skill building stuff to mix it up a bit. The CFWU is a good one, but I believe that slow lift days are a good opportunity to work on other stuff and let your body rest from the usual mov't. Try knocking out a 500 or 2 on the rower and then the Burgener warm-up followed by some light lifts. Good job by the way. I've been watching you improve on the posts w/the WODs.

Lee - In response to your post #48, you mock my point that the Muslims are the ones responsible for the transnational terrorism we're faced with worldwide by saying that you think I'm anti any religion other than Christianity. Quite wrong; however, I am against the use of religion, any religion for that matter, to control and manipulate the weak and poor into performing acts of terrorism against peaceful nations and citizens.

Interesting that you point to Ireland and the terrorist tactics there against the Brits. The IRA were not transnational terrorists. I didn't lie awake in my bed at night wondering if the IRA was going to detonate a nuke in an American city just because they hated America. And the IRA were willing to come to terms with the situation - unlike the terrorists we now face in the Islamic world.

I do agree with Kate in post #72 - "My question is- Why aren't the peaceful, good citizen Muslims policing their own? Why have they given away their power to the extremists?"

On another note, I also don't believe everything our government tells me and I'm not a fanatical Bush loyalist; however, I do agree with DJ that you don't criticize the President openly and, in effect, aide and abet the enemy by helping to sap our national will through open dissent, which in turn only strengthens the resolve of the terrorists.

The question I have for you, Lee, is what have you done to preserve liberty?

Mom- You said it!

#81, Tamas,

In America, we have absolute freedom to criticize (or support) our leaders. What we don't have is the right to have our statements go unchallenged by either the government or our fellow citizens. Free speech cuts both ways. We (including the press) do not have the right to leek classified information.

We do have certain places where we cannot protest or discuss certain topics. (Under the First Amendment, these are known as "time, manner, and place" restrictions.) A simple and obvious example would be a courtroom. We do not have the right to wear buttons saying "guilty" or "innocent" inside a courtroom.

I seriously doubt that anyone kooky enough to deny the Holocaust in the US would be arrested. Laughed at, mocked, booed, but not arrested.

Your question of whether we can win against an enemy that does not play by the rule book is a good one. I certainly hope so, and if not I hope we stop playing by the rule book. Because if we lose, there will be no rulebook.

"The Constitution is not a suicide pact."

Kate, assuming that Abdullah hasn't answered you because you are a woman is pretty ridiculous. You posted your original question at 8:45 am, and since you didn't get a response in less than three hours you assume he is refusing to address you because of your gender? Is it possible that there is some other explanation? Making that assumption is like a black person assuming someone must be in the KKK because they didn't call them back within three hours after they left a message at 2 am.

Perhaps Abdullah doesn't want to continue debating this issue. Or, more likely, maybe he doesn't have time to check the crossfit comments page every hour on a Tuesday morning.

Question ??? Some days I do the wod from this site and some days I do the CF San Diego wod. Is this ok.. I mean are the workouts set in a certain order for a reason or is that not so important. I realize the obvious like doing deadlifts 2 days in a row. Anyone have any thoughts on this.
Thanks.
SKIng

Sking- STOP imdiately! If you continue this, you will inplode.

j/k There is no problem w/this. I know first hand that CFSD has some tough ass WOD's. Just be sure that you don't just go back and forth doing the WOD's that you are good at. You will not improve that way. You need to make sure that are challenging your weaknesses as well. Hope it helps.

Hari and barry,

thanks for telling me what I think. I hadn't realised my none neo-conservative words would put hairs up so many upstanding asses. Barry, you're more eloquent but that doesn't make me agree with you. I haven't immersed myself in the subject to the level you guys have. I don't care enough, which seems to be a crime around here. I don't feel, as someone was arrogant enough to presume, that my percieved sense of freedom is due to american and british people being in another country killing and getting killed in a heavily media- saturated situation. The right wing media often refer to arrested muslims as 'terror-suspects' then sheepishly admit there is no evidence and no charges made. You may pick the bones of that point and chew them how you will, but it's the sort of thing that influences my opinion. I might well be a sheep. It doesn't mean I have to like the sheepdog. Especially when the sheepdog lies about the reasons for attacking the wolf.

Re Bush - I know 10 year olds with stronger powers reason and articulation.

Thanks DJ.

#96, Lee,

"I might well be a sheep. It doesn't mean I have to like the sheepdog. Especially when the sheepdog lies about the reasons for attacking the wolf."

Well argued!

You're perfectly free to hate the sheepdog, and clearly you do.

#96, Lee,

And I guess I should add that the sheepdogs are equaly free to hate the wolves.

#75- Thanks Joey!

#79 P_Joe- It might seem hardcore to you to see what I wrote but I was showing respect to Abdullah and his religeous practices. Since we don't know how religeous or orthodox he is, I have to take a non-assuming position.

Tom- Yes, I also understand that he may be a very busy man, different time zone, etc. I was actually scrubbing the floor when that particular thought occured to me and I wanted to get it down before I had to run out the door to get my kids from school. Now I am responding to your post before starting some other work. When I believe that I might have offeneded I try and clear it up as soon as possible or as soon as I think about it. So, maybe it seems like I was jumping the gun a bit to post that only 3 hours after my first post but that's when it was in my head and I wanted to get it down.

If someone else wants to answer my question for me that's fine too.

Kate

TAMAS...

"Do we have freedom to express our opinions or we cannot critize our leaders since that makes us weaker ?"

both...everything has a consequence. the point is "why are you doing it?" Is it to disrupt this administration for political reasons? Is it to postpone success until another leader takes charge? With respect to the political left in this country...that is exacly why. They have admitted it.

"Do we have freedom to practice our choice of religion or only the ones which do not declare holy wars (aka Crusades) ?"

Freedom of religion is the law of the land...if that religion undermines other points of law or others's freedom of religion than it is going to have problems.

"Do we defend the right for free press or do we censor what is thought as politically not correct ?"

We defend freedom of the press...The press has no right to undermine national security and has an obligation, I believe, not to purposely report only the negative aspects of events that have our people in harm's way just to beat up on a political figure they do not personally like (Journalistic institutions and individuals).

"Do we have a right of freedom of association or we draw special zones where you cannot protest and topics about which you cannot carry placards ?"

Depends...are the protesters there to protest peacefully or are they their to disrupt through thuggary and intimidation and ...hence, stopping others from their freedom of association. The dirty hippies who protest the Republican conventions come to mind....

"Do we support the human rights (if there is such a thing) of all human beings or only the ones who are not enemy combatants, terrorists or just simily "not with us" ?

We support human rights, primarily the right to live, by getting information that saves lives from enemy combatants and terrorists. We do not however, in my view confer CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS on those that mean to harm us.

"I know that this new enemy doesnt play nice or by the rulebook. They hide their soldiers behind civilians and project a twisted picture about their true motives. But the question is : can we win against them without dropping the principles of freedoms other generations have died for ?"

yes, and it will not always be pretty...I ask you to remember that our Bill of Rights is not a suicide pact. I wish it could be different, but this is how they want it...so this is how they get it.

"However if you stand up in the western world and deny the Holocaust because that is what you have learned at the main university of your religion (in Riyadh), you get imprisoned in France and most likely arrested in the US for an indefinite period of time until charges can be found against you."

I have not seen this to be the case...however, it does tend to be a telling indicator. Do you have examples?

"But if you establish the "Flat Earth Society" or even better claim that God created Earth 6000 years ago, then you are just pratcticing your beliefs or religion."

sure people believe all sorts of things...it is actions that get you in trouble.

Islamo-fascists burn an American flag in the streets of New York...is it free-speech or hate-speech.

Anon-Muslim American burns an Islamic Nations flag next to the Islamo-fascist's burning the American Flag...is it free-speech or Hate-speech.

Which will the press report as the intolerant one and which will they ignore? In this environment the non-Muslim is going to be the bad guy.

PLEASE WATCH THIS: (it is about 4 minutes and directly deals with this discussion)

This is not work/family safe, but still should be seen by all to add clarity to this discussion and coincide with the Artical posted.

http://www.anti-cair-net.org/DesecrateFlag.wmv

If violence broke out, who would the liberals (ACLU types) stick up for? My bet is even if the Islamofascists started the fight the non-Muslim would be blamed.

#94 sking

I see no problem. The WOD's are randomized as I understand the protocol, although not fully random. As long as you aren't selecting only a specific type of WOD (e.g, heavy lifts) but a randomized sample from each, you should be okay. If you are selecting a specific type of WOD from each, then you are not realizing the full potential of the CrossFit methodology and likely not strengthening you weaknesses.

I come back to check comments, and ... what the hell is this sheep/dogs analogy?!?

It's like a surreal, neocon-versus-hippy interpretation of Floyd's "Animals".

/me sings "bleating and babbling they fell on his neck with a scream ...."

I'm a few days behind so I did "Helen"
21 minutes

CCTJoey,

Understood, I just felt he was taking on a lot of weight for one person.

I try not to go after anyone but sometimes argument in the true since is taken in the wrong since by many. I love CF and rant to anyone who will listen but am still in the process of honing my CF rest day debating skills.

I think we are seeing one of the basic weaknesses we have in this new era. We as a country know very little about cultures that aren't western in nature and practice. In this case we are (many) seeking knowledge from any source we can and I'm wondering if the source in this case feels a bit battered. I surely (don't call me Shirley) don't want to be the mouthpiece for the liberal agenda in here let alone the sole Islamic voice in this conservative arena.

In essence I was just trying to ease the pain of a fellow CFer.

ricky
richmond

#94 - I wouldn't recommend swapping-up WODs. There's definitely a style, method and pattern to the programming, or many of smart fellows here would be making up their own WODs.

For example, let's look at part of January:

12/31: 5 rnds: run 400m; 95lb OHS, 15 reps
01/01: 5 rnds: run 400m; 225lb DL, 12 reps
01/02: 5 rnds: run 400m; 135lb Thruster, 10 reps

01/04: BackSquat 5x5
01/05: ShoulderPress 5x5
01/06: Deadlift 5x5

01/08: 20mins: 65lb Thruster, 12 reps; 10 pullups
01/09: 20mins: 65lb PSnatch, 12 reps; 10 pushups
01/10: 20mins: run 100m; 55lb KBswings, 12 reps; 10 pullups

there's hardly a reason to swap, skip or substitute on the programming. Coach is an expert at this.

#92 Hari,

Thank you for your point of view. I agree that ultimately survival is more important than whether you play by the rules or not. Yet in the western society there is a layer of civilization which says that if you have to use the methods of the bad guys than you are no better than them.

Most fundamentalist Islamic societies have a rulebook so different that we no more recognize it (or associate it with medeival times)
here are some (safe) links
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia
http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=138&report=40

I bet the Saudi muslims do not have to fear about the safety of their way of life. Enemies of the state and religion (ie Jews) are banned from the country. There are no terrorists, revolutionaries or flag burners. They have access to the best military technology at their fingertip and US forces keep vigil over their source of income.

Still I would not be happy to live under such "rulebook", as the powers that may be keep the common people in fear and insist that such rules are necesseary in order to maintain the Islamic way of life.

The problem of the "leftists" is that the western leaders are now also using the power of fear, uncertainty and doubt. The goverment says, we may have to throw out parts (or the whole ?) of our current rulebook in order to maintain our way of life.

As such the terrorists are winning. Either by sabotage or by removal of human rights and freedoms the western way of life will cease to exist as we grant more and more powers to the government to continuously wage war against terror (or communists, drugs, etc...).

It is exactly because the terrorists do not play by the rules is why we have to. When we stop, they have achieved their objective. Most people who oppose the war in Iraq have in fact nothing against the principle of going to a foreign country and killing terrorists or dictators. What they have a problem with though is how the current administration is using their tax dollars to lie, spread fear and change rules about human rights/freedoms, so that they can remain in power.

Abdullah: I'll work out with you any time, bro! Come to the Raleigh Cert & I'll stand with you. The uber-lethal Spec Ops guys who introduced me to CrossFit are out there ready to defend America, and they are some of the most polite, respectful and quiet guys I have ever known. They reserve their game face only for the tangoes, not us CrossFitters! Fear them not!

And, will the awesome Muslim guy with the amazing muscle up ability please teach me his technique?

CCCTJOEY- you rock. keep posting, you are right on. btw: sorry about the shoulder. I'm pulling a filthy fifties tonight and am in paralyzing fear of similar distruction.

Barry: uhh.. yeah, what you said. Just kidding, I love to read your eloquent posts. Thoughtful words from and thinking mind.

I went to Iraq last year. It sucked. We've got to stay and slug it out. Or leave and let it collapse. We broke it, we bought it. Too bad, since it looks like I'm headed back again this year...

And, Islamic extremists are waging a muli-generational war, with a 100 year plan. Their patience and steady dedication will remain unwaivering. They're a little group, but wicked effective. We Americans (together with our capitalistic, peace loving allies) need to get ourselves together, face that fact, and act accordingly. And, when I say "we Americans", I mean each last one of us. Whatever our political leanings. Bombs do not discriminate between sheep and sheepdogs. When a bomb goes, everyone in the blast radius gets it. The 100 years Islamic Extremist War really is coming. Here. Again. Soon. And, it will involve bombs. Sorry, but so it is.

Are we, as an individuals, and us as a country, going to do something about it or not? Placation of these terrorists is utterly ineffective. Well, unless placation involves turning the USA into the United Servants of Allah... We bend to them or they fight us. We won't bend. They're not kidding around, and are fighting us until they get their desired outcome. They do this whether we want to fight or not. So, here they come. What are you going to do?

Oh, and just imagine where they'll go if Iraq is no longer the hot spot. If not there, then perhaps some other place, hmm? Closer to home? Perhaps home even? It's happening in France and now the UK. Next stop, New York, Washington and Los Angeles...

As per the Quranic Concept of War" article, it states, "Respect” therefore is achieved psychologically by, as Brohi suggested earlier, “beautiful” and “handsome ways” or by the strategic application of terror." Respect, huh? I am never ever going to submit, nor wear a burkah, regardless of "handsome ways". Nor am I going to monkey around making worthless agreements with terrorists. Nor am I going to participate in sitting by while terrorism happens to my family, friends, country or its allies.

Count me in on the side of standing up for America. Whatever it takes. Again. Even if I have to make a sacrifice (apparently to some it's a supreme sacrifice to just shut their pie hole and refrain from taking pot-shots at our elected officials). Or, perhaps I may have to do something a bit more challenging, like ruck up and go back to Iraq. Or, something a bit more annoying. Like we as a country have to change everything in our lives (FOOT STOMP) and gear ourselves towards American security. Inconvenient stuff like parking my SUV, and refusing to enrich the Middle East with gas sales. Maybe "Greatest Generation" stuff like buying war bonds or supporting a draft. Whatever your victory garden is. Perhaps that's not asking much considering my best friends are out there doing the wet work.

What's it going to take for us to prevail? The same dedication and singlemindedness of purpose that it took for the allies to win WWII. Yes, including the brutal stuff, like firebombing Tokyo on a lovely breezy warm night... OH, and historically speaking, pissed off Americans are quite adept at such things. Are we pissed off yet?

Let's hope we have the selfless guts it takes to win, like our grandparents had. I would look like @$$ in a burkah.

Enough.. off to the filthies!

-Karen

#105, Tamas,

"The problem of the 'leftists' is that the western leaders are now also using the power of fear, uncertainty and doubt. The goverment says, we may have to throw out parts (or the whole ?) of our current rulebook in order to maintain our way of life."

Suppose, as a hypothetical, that some of these western leaders are right, that we do have to throw out (or temporarily modify) parts of the current rulebook in order to maintain our way of life? Suppose the rulebook is sufficiently flexible to allow for protecting itself. Perhaps the "fear, uncertainty, and doubt" that you describe is not the fault of western leaders, but the fault of our enemies.

Karen - Kelley and I look forward to meeting you in Raleigh!

I know you're Air Force, but Semper Fi anyway.

Steve

I am a white male. Very white. There is no mistaking me for anything other than a westerner. If I talk you know I am american and if you know dialects and accents you could probably figure out that I am from Texas.
In 2004 a friend and I traveled to Israel for Passover. I wanted to do a pilgramige to fulfill my faith. My friend that went with me was a blond headed voluptuos female. We bought one way tickets to Spain then traveled overland to the Middle east. Having to travel through Turkey, Kurdistan, Iraq, Jordan, The West Bank, Israel, and finally Egypt before coming back stateside. While in Europe we stayed in hostels. Once the "muslim"countries though, we found that every single city that we went into people were overwilling to take us into their homes and feed us and shelter us. There was never a time when we felt threatenend or intimidated by our hosts. As a matter of fact they were excited to be meeting real Americans.
There were many time that the various members of the households would engage in their daily prayers. Never once did they try to convert us. Never once did they put conditions or threats against us because we were from a different culture. We were never called infidels or even made to feel like we were inferior. We were often given the best beds in the houses and the first to be served food whenever there was a meal.
Most of the conversations were centered around helping them with their English and asking how Americans would treat them. I bet we all know the answer to this one. I was often embarrassed for my country knowing that we would shut the doors in their faces.
If we wanted to know something about Islam or a ritual that they were doing we would ask and they would share.
We even explained to them why we were traveling to Jerusalem and they never even considered us an enemy. The majority wanted us to stay with them longer than we did.
I won't even get started on the behavior of the Israelis but it wasn't near as nice or compassionate. (unless you told them you were a Jew)
I just thought that you should know. The propaganda that Islam is a religion of war and that Muslims want to kill everyone is not correct. I walked through the heart of that country and found out for myself.
What I found was a region of people that have more manners and respect for others than anyone I know in America has. I was truly amazed at the hospitality.

I really enjoyed the video too!

Awesome video from Crossfit North. Good work, folks!!

101# Mr.Luc - Apologies for the affront to your mature hedge sitting stance. While you lay out a nice dichotomy of the situation, I offer a personal analogy. Both of us as entitled as each other. I was referring to the accusation of being a sheep someone levelled at me. Yor reaction dissapointed me as I thought up until now your post was one of the more balanced perspectives - apart from the liberal pumpkin sex thing - what the hell was that? I could generalise about conservatives, but someone already mentioned Jimmy Swaggart.

Well, my orignal message is being held. So, if it never shows up here are some of my thoughts (if I can remember them)-

Thank you Joey!

The comment to Abdullah was made out of respect to him and his religeous practices, since we do not and don't need to know how orthodox he is, I was taking a non-assuming position.
Also, I typed that up as the thought came to me as I was doing something else before leaving the house and wanted to get it down before I would forget it or any offense would be taken. I understand about busy lives, different time zones, etc.

I too, might end up just having to find the english version of the book in today's essay or do some more thourough searching and asking of the right questions.

Kate

It seems that many of the problems we face are encountered when an individual or group of individuals decides their beleifs (or faiths) are the correct ones and/or they wish to impose their beliefs upon others willing and unwilling. This continues with our current proclaimed enemies and in our own country quite rampantly. We were by no means innocent in our involvement with other nations prior to 11SEP (which in no stretch of the imagination justifies the attack) and I can understand why some would not take favorable view toward the US. However, some individuals abroad take advantage of these points and the poor conditions and use religous rhetoric to convince people that terror must be used to fight the West. And the condition perpetuates with repeated retalliation on each side.

As a military member it is my duty to follow the policies set down by my chain of command and carry them out completely and effectively without hesitation. However, that does not mean that I an required to take the stance of a closed minded Islam destroyer. These are complicated times and this is an even more complicated war. We need to use strict discretion when dealing with others of another culture and not lump everyone in the same category from that culture.

The world is always more complicated than we first realize and in the end we and all of our descendants from all cultures will have to co-exist.

Really great video!

Wasn't it Thomas Jefferson who said (paraphrased), "I don't care what God you believe in as long as you don't try to force me to believe in him."

did the 5k right after the Filthy fifty, claves feel like stones. gonna do some chest and shoulders today, no rest for me.

Mr. Luc,

You're getting into military tactics. Is this something you know a lot about? Guns don't grow on trees, even in the Middle East, and it appears credibly clear that an awful lot of the weapons being used to kill our troops are coming from other countries. Countries with names, that start with letters like I and S.

In any event, on contemplation and close scrutiny, your arguments deflate to "this war is difficult", and you are in effect wanting to play Cassandra and comment with somewhat supercilious certainty that victory is all but impossible, based upon what you believe OUGHT to be the case. Who says? I disagree. I talk to guys on the ground, and there are a lot of Iraqis who want us to help them succeed. As R. Fielder points out, there are a lot of Muslims who just want to live and let live. And really who wants war? I don't. I just feel it has been brought to us.

Oh, and Mr. Luc, it is no surprise that those terms are unfamiliar to you, as you would very definitely be one who would get grouped with the sheep. Here is the article, which has appeared a number of times here: http://hobbes.ncsa.uiuc.edu/onsheepwolvesandsheepdogs.html

Tamas,

You will note I am not advocating arresting the people I am happy to call traitors. I AM advocating the arrest of those responsible for breaking the law by publishing classified information, such as the publishers of the New York Times.

The question is really one of propriety. If I'm at a dinner party, and decide that farting and burping as loud as I can would be funny, I can get away with that. I can't expect not to be told to stop, or not to be considered rude and never invited again, but I'm not technically violating any laws.

Likewise with criticism of the war. If you give aid and comfort to our enemies, then you are putting American lives in jeopardy. The debate on the war happened before we invaded. THAT was the time for dissenting opinions. NOW is the time to focus on victory, and I can call--using my freedom of speech--anyone a treacherous coward I want to. See, that's how it works. If it hurts peoples feelings, it is doing considerably less harm than the actual treason being perpetrated by those who help our enemies, directly and indirectly. Sticks and stones, and all that. There are sticks and stones over there, and just words here. For now.

I did have a chance to read the article through, and I think that we need to be careful about conflating theory and actual practice. I think Osama Bin Laden, in his own mind, thinks of himself as a sort of romantic hero, rescuing an unwashed and often distressingly ungrateful mass of people he considers poor Muslims from the tyranny of rationalizing humanism: “Islamic jihad is both offensive and defensive” oriented on liberating man from humanistic tyranny."

One of the defining issues of modernity is that of identity. When people fight over religion, in a deeper sense they are really fighting over an identity. Multiculturalism has had, in America at least, a levelling effect in almost mechanically culling unique senses of self from our collective selves. Confederate flags have to be taken down. Indians can't be used as mascots. Many ideas can't be broached in public without immediate excoriation. And it leaves a lot of us pissed off that, whoever it is that we want to be, somebody somewhere is going to get pissed off about it.
This comment will piss people off, and I haven't unloaded the half of it.

We don't know crap about true multiculturalism, now. Back in the day, everybody did their thing, looked at everybody else funny, the WASPS who founded this country ran it, and people didn't need to tell someone else NOT to do something, just so they could do their thing. You do your thing, I do mine, we all coexist using the liberty guaranteed us by the Constitution.

Now, in the interest of egalitarianism--a manifestly stupid ideal still somehow hanging on from the French Revolution--we have a lot of people doing their best to end democracy in this country in the name of increasing it.

Not sure what my problem is today, but it should be gone by tomorrow. End rant.

#101 Joey-
That was a very interesting link. The hypocracy was amazing.

Here's a link that is a little long but a good one. Not sure how family friendly this is considered but my husband and I used this as a teaching aid to show our kids how the media can be biased and how apparent the need for truth and accountability in the press is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_B1H-1opys

#119 Barry- "This comment will piss people off, and I haven't unloaded the half of it."
Why hold back? I always tell people that my talent is pissing people off and you can see what happens when I try and fix where I didn't want to have pissed someone off!

I think I've been a humming bird to here all day.

Kate

I believe Barry has MR-LUC confused with Lee as it pertains to the "SHEEP"