December 20, 2006
Back squat 3-3-3-3-3 reps
Post loads to comments.
Unsound, immature, and developed squats
Posted by lauren at December 20, 2006 4:46 PM
squat, squat till you drop...squat, squat never stop!
this'll be fun after fight gone bad.
Holy moly, early WOD postings make me happy. If you could see me, you would see that I am smiling.
So in the picture, what is wrong with the one in the middle?
#4 she's too far foreward which could be bad for the back. Plus she's smiling, I only smile when I'm finished squatting. And when they post the WOD's early.
I really wish you could see me now.
how the heck did she do that? it doesn't even look centered to me. i'm assuming it's ok to have your knees go that far forward?
guess i better go stretch and keep practicing - curses!
No weight indicated. Checked FAQ...didn't get an answer.
#8 - "post loads to comments" - suggests you find a weight that works for you.
Joshua,you work up to your max weight
that means you go as heavy as you can for 3 reps under good form. If for example you know your 1 rep max from the CFT day last week is 235 you could start set 1 with 3 reps of 185 then go 190 etc. until the last set which should be the hardest set of 3 reps of them all. It's not uncommon to see people even fail on rep 3
no doubt you'll be jacked up on coffee for this one hey gaucoin!
Are we supposed to try to stay as upright as the picture on the right even when we squat with heavier weights, or is it normal for your back to bend like the picture in the middle?
Given that today's WOD is back squats, I don't see how the middle picture is all that "immature". This position seems like it would place the barbell squarely over the feet, which is what Rippetoe suggests in the excerpt he quotes in this thread:
I am having trouble keeping my heels on the ground. I am just starting so it might be my strength level, which is fine. But is it bad form for the heels to come off the ground?
Weightroom heels. Athletics toes.
I sorta strained my lower abdominal wall last week (I think) so I'm gonna go easy on this one.
I am by no means an expert. But it is bad form if your heels come up. Try dropping down in weight a little. I used to have the same problem. I corrected the problem by placing a small board under my heels for a few workouts and it cured my problem. Don't know if this is the preferred method though. Reducing weight until your form is right is always a good way to go.
The one in the middle is perfect if you put a bar on her back. Draw a vertical line from the place on her back where the bar would be down to the floor, and notice that it intersects the middle of her foot. The third picture is the proper position for an unweighted squat, and is in balance because the weight of her arms out in front allows the back to be behind the balance point in the middle of her foot. It also works for a front squat. But if the bar is on her back and her hands are on the bar, the third position would be off balance because the center of gravity of the system would be behind her heels.
The first picture needs no comment.
Her pelvis is rotating under. (Forward and under)
Her butt is being pulled too far back drawing her knees behind her toes and causing her to lean forward a bit too much and limiting her flexibility. Beyond that her weight is evenly distributed over her base.
I'm going to argue that her back angle is to straight up and down in the last photo even for a front squat! Put a bar on her front delts with the elbows pressing upward and you would see the torso tilt forward slightly. In my onw humble opinion her back angle should be somewhere between that of the second and third pics. Neither her torso or hips are over her base of support.
And about the knees going forward of the toe, as Coach Rippetoe said in his interview with Charles Staley, to which he said something to this effect try going up the stairs without you knees going way forward of the toe. It's not going to happen.
Pic 1. Bad news all together
Pic 2. Scapula over the base of the foot (actually a good position for a back squat but limiting to flexibility in the air squat) - Position more hip dominant
Pic 3. Not bad for an air squat (Front squat would have more torso lean) Position is knee dominant.
#16 - Correct it is bad form for the heels to leave the ground. In fact all of the force should be driven through the heels and mid foot into the ground. Make sure you can squat with good form before using weight.
everytime... Never fails!
I'll try this again. I've got a new version of that called 20 Rep Squat Day. Three sets of 20 repititions of back squats with progressing weight. When I started out, I did it at 135 and moved up 10lb increments each set. Today I started out at 175 lbs and progressed the same. It'll smoke your legs, and afterwards you'll have a look on your face like someone just kicked your puppy. This one is thanks to my buddy Avery.
Here's something that helped my form. I was taught to stand straight up facing a wall feet shoulder width apart with my toes 1 inch away from the wall and my hands on the wall above my head. Then perform a squat without letting your knees touch the wall or your heels leaving the ground...or falling backwards. It's tough, but it should be near perfect form.
18's suggestion is good. I'd add that 2 1/2 pound do the job really well.
#12 Trevor, Rip, et al - whoever wants to answer this:
I thought on days like today working up to your max would mean changing the weight each set vice during the set as suggested by Trevor. Since the sets are comprised of 5 reps each I would think that each set stays at the same weight for the entire set. If you were to choose too low of a weight for that set make up for it on the next set. This makes it different from a CFT day or a 1, 1, 1,... day because you are going for the max weight you can handle for 5 reps and also the trying to do the max weight you can handle for 5 reps and 5 sets vice building to a 1 rep max.
Where did I go wrong here? Are these 5 rep build ups to 1 rep maxs?
replaces all occurrences of "5" with "3"...
I was think of the deadlift day
Kevin, don't make this complex. Get a bar in a squat rack. Load it with something you know you can squat for 6 reps. Squat 3 reps. Add weight and repeat until you have reached a 3 rep max.
Thank God Rip said it so I don't have to defend myself. I don't like #3. It's easier to get a client to drop their hands on an air squat than to get them to change their torso position on a back squat.
Trevor S I was thinking of going coffee-free for this WOD because I get the massive head rush after the set is over PLUS I'm gonna need a caffeine rush later on in the day when I study for my STINKIN' 11-MONTH ROOKIE FIREFIGHTER EXAM!!!
#25 Kevin you are thinking waaay too much for your own good here, #27 Nick couldn't have put it any better. Progressively heavier 3 rep only sets until you reach your true 3RM.
I'm right there with you!
Nick... re-read what I'm saying and see how it differs from what you're saying. I only used 6 sentences and none of them were very complex.
I'm trying to clear up the difference from what #12 Trevor said and what you (I) already do.
Besides, there are different ways to approach this. You can just do 4 sets of really low weight warm-up and the try for a max on set five. Or try to max out the total amount of weight moved in the entire series. I lean toward the latter. Both methods involve "add weight and repeat (for 4 more sets) until you have reached a 3 rep max." But neither of these match what Trevor said.
I wanted clarification on which of these was intended.
really good article in the post piedrafrio.
Ok... I went back and re-read #12. I think I misread what Trevor was saying. I'm saying the same thing he is. And I would understand someone pointing this out to me. My fault was in thinking the sets were of 5 reps.
I don't understand why you guys thought I was saying something complex. I still think there are at least two ways to go about the "add weight and repeat" method. But I guess I'm the only one that finds that interesting.
I'll do it my way and we can see whose squats increase the fastest. My last max was 330# during the CFT.
Thanx Travis, thought it was pretty positive story on a "new" fitness trend.
18 & 24 Stop putting boards and weights under your heels. You are not helping yourself at all. You are encouraging bad form and asking for injuries. Read some of the CFJ articles on Squats and Rippetoe's articles/book.
You have to learn to get the heels down PERIOD.
RE: the photos
#1 is bad
#2 is not bad, just immature.
#3 is considered developed because the posterior chain is fully awakened.
True the back angle will have to shift depending on where a barbell is placed, but the point is whether the posterior chain is developed to its utmost.
I have found that #2 is pretty typical for people with poor ankle flexibility and longer than average upper leg (relative to lower leg length). The interesting thing is that I have found that people who demonstrate the #2 form are more likely to report a "falling backwards" sensation, and then try to correct it by leaning further forwards with compounds the problem!
One of the ways that I have found to move them from #2 to #3 for air squats is to get them to hold a vertical broomstick at chest height so that it is perpendicular to the ground and touching their nose. I then get them to squat keeping their nose on the broomstick. This seems to take away the "falling backwards" feeling and before too long they start to look like #3.
Did "Fight gone Bad" this morning at 0530, but since I gotta get on a plane tomorrow AM, I did this one tonight while the kids were in Karate.
Still working on form
175x3 (1RM from CFT last week)
195 - did 3 reps but I won't count them because I don't think I dropped deep enough
Ran 1.5 mile
Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it. Amen.
UK crossfitter. BW 83kg
Weight in kg:
All reps ass to grass
BW now 71kg - 2kg lost in 3 weeks.
29kg is all the weight i have. I'm picking my Oly kit up tonight!!!
Have to go with Pierre Auge (#20) on this.
Pic #3: Knees pushing too far forward. And the back is not in a neutral position - this being bad, because people tend to push into a hollow-back position as opposed to keeping a natural position with proper core stability.
I always try to teach the squat saying that back and lower leg should be parallel, which would make the position between pic #2 and pic #3 better.
Maybe taking a video of a crossfitter with recognisable proper technique and giving pointers about good (and bad) technique would be more helpful.
Pleased to have a non-cardio session as FGB put a hurtin on me.
AHH!!! - I just can't seem to get into position #3 (without holding something).
After reading everything here, I'm coming to a couple conclusions.
First, I've never seen a male in this position. Anyone have that picture? I have thicker torso than the girl in the photo and my arms out front may not be enough of a counter balance for me. I'll know for sure when I get back to an appropriate weight (carrying a little extra right now).
Second, and I believe more accurate/probable, I'm believing #37 Matt's point about ankle flexibility. My I can't get my knees that far in front of my feet without my heels raising... and the more I try (by holding onto something) it also begins to show an inflexibility in the hip (knees want to come in - but when I push them out my rear end wants to tuck or I have to lean forward). Therefore, I've concluded I need greater ankle flexibility (can't even get there sitting on a box) and more flexible (possibly stronger) hips.
Am I on the right track here? How do I make my ankles more flexible... squat with a plate under the front of my foot?
Read the part of my comment that says; "I used to have the same problem. I corrected the problem by placing a small board under my heels for a few workouts and it cured my problem." Notice the past tense and the following disclaimer about it being the preferred method. Thanks.
BWT=279; 43 yoa
BS 5x3: 313/343/363/363/383
Try an overhead squat and all of your weaknesses in that movement will be highlighted.
Generally, I find that hip flexibility is to blame. This and core stability. It's rarely an issue within the ankle, in my experience.
All reps A2A, 3 mins rest b/t sets.
This workout fits in nicely w/ my half-intensity week. I skipped yesterdays WOD and did 10x3 of strict overhead presses and 10x3 of weighted pullups, w/ 90 seconds rest in between each set. For whatever reason, although using heavier weights, these workouts don't crush my soul like a number of the WODs do. They feel leisurely by comparison,but I know that I'm accomplishing something and helping to build strength.
Here's a thought: I wonder if the WODs are taking on more of a ME/Blackbox format now that the CFT has been implemented, with the middle WOD being a ME day, sandwiched by 2 metcons. Could Coach be programming the WODs in order to usher in improvements in those lifts? Time will tell. Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming...
37 yoa/ 155 bw
W/U - run to gym
225X3 (my 1RM on last CFT)
Pierre Auge, I concur...
I would be surprised if "She" did not experience a pratt fall from her squat in picture three.
The longer the femur the greater the forward lean.
The back squat will have you leaning more than the front squat.
Put the bar on your back and have fun...
good luck on the exam gaucoin!!!!
I'm glad we are on the same page. I try to get pretty close to my 3rm on the first working set and increase a small amount each set. Of course i get about 3 warm ups sets in before even starting the "workout" portion.
I have made the mistakes of starting too light like I did with the DL workout the other day and starting too heavy too and failing mid way through. I'm still learning.
great article. still find it hard to believe all this is free. coach- i think you are truly impacting and improving people's lives, not just their fitness. four and a half months into crossfit and still eagerly awaiting each WOD.
Long time since last squatted w/ weights...
Total lack of flexibility really impedes my squatting ability...lots to work on.
So how does one go from the middle to the end picture?
I'm not quite as bad as the middle picture, but I do know that I tend to get forward like that a bit. it looks to me like you need to do hack squats or something like that to get to the right position in the last picture. Concern would be falling backward and breaking...many things. IDeas?
#1 looks awefull, #2 looks like a perfect back squat if you add weight since the line of the bar is right. and #3 looks like a perfect front squat if you place the weight on the front delts and draw a line.
Per Coach Rip, " The one in the middle is perfect if you put a bar on her back. Draw a vertical line from the place on her back where the bar would be down to the floor, and notice that it intersects the middle of her foot." What more do you need to know? This is as close to a magic bullet as you'll ever get.
I follow the form outlined in Starting Strength and anything else put out by Coach Rip. Works for me. People are killing themselves trying to re-invent the wheel here.
w/u: 1 mile on treadmill, 3 x 5 squats w/5 second pause in bottom position, 3 x 10 squats w/bar only
wod: 3 x 135, 185, 205, 225, 225
inspired by coach's comment about run times of a few days ago, finished w/tabata sprints
Jason #4, “So what is wrong with the one in the middle?”
Nothing, but if that is the best you can do unladen, your laden squat will be weak.
Keith #14, “Are we supposed to stay as upright as the picture on the right even when we squat with heavier weights, or is it normal for your back to bend like the picture in the middle?”
You want to stay as upright as you possibly can AND remain balanced. That will look like the position in the middle. As a minor point of terminology the “back” isn’t bent in the middle; the torso is “forward inclined” It is the hip that is bent.
James #15, “Given that today’s WOD is back squats, I don’t see how the middle picture is all that “immature”. This position seems like it would place the barbell squarely over the feet, which is what Rippetoe suggests in the excerpt he quotes in this thread…”
If you stand, walk, squat, or run with postures that look like you have 500 lbs on your back when unladen, you’re doomed when the load comes.
You may have noticed that the athlete pictured is not laden. And, of course, Rip is right about the load remaining over the feet, but that’s a requirement of the Universe, not Rip’s.
Jrlittle #16, “I am having trouble keeping my heels on the ground. I am just starting so it might be my strength level, which is fine. But is it bad form for the heels to come off the ground.”
It is indeed bad form and more importantly it is bad mechanics. The posterior chain is lost when the heels come up. There are two causes for this: 1) poor connectedness to the posterior chain. (Your brain doesn’t know what your ass does for a living.) and 2) short, i.e., inflexible hamstrings.
John Seiler #28, “Thank God Rip said it so I don’t have to defend myself. I don’t like #3. It’s easier to get a client to drop their hands on an air squat than to get them to change their torso position on a back squat.”
The point is that the ability to fully potential the posterior chain is only demonstrated in the third photo. In the second the athlete is forward inclined (to cantilever on to her quads) as though she had a big load on her back!
It’s a bit of an oversimplification, but…if you squat unladen like the picture on the left, a load will cause you to join the legions of doctors who think squatting is dangerous. You’ll get hurt. If you squat unladen like the middle picture, you’ll not get very far, very fast, with your weighted squat because you’ve not learned how to use your posterior chain. You may in fact find yourself in the first position but only transiently. If you squat unladen like the photo on the right, the addition of a load will put you in the position of the second photo.
Finally, you’re right; it is in fact all too easy to get a client to drop their hands. The difficulty is getting them to rise up, that is, elevate their torso, remain on the heels, and fully engage their glutes and ham’s. Elevating the arms is a great aid in motivating that posture.
Keith W #36,
Bingo!!! You, Rip, and I are on the same page.
Matt Swift (SwiftFIT Brisbane) #37, “I have found that #2 is pretty typical for people with poor ankle flexibility and longer than average upper leg (relative to lower leg length). The interesting thing is that I have found that people who demonstrate the #2 form are more likely to report a “falling backwards” sensation, and then try to correct it by leaning further forwards with (sic) compounds the problem!”
“One of the ways that I have found to move them from #2 to #3 for air squats is to get them to hold a vertical broomstick at chest height so that it is perpendicular to the ground and touching their nose. I then get them to squat keeping their nose on the broomstick. This seems to take away the “falling backwards” feeling and before too lnog they start to look like #3.”
You’re spot on here with everything but etiology. The problem is neither ankle inflexibility nor limb ratios, but some combination of hamstring inflexibility and poor neural connectedness, i.e. no or little engagement of the hip extensors (glutes/hams).
Your therapy is motivating that awareness and elevating the torso. You’re moving your athletes from a quad-dominant cantilevered squat, #2, to a hip driven, balanced recruitment, supported by a fully potentiated posterior chain.
Joe #713, “I just can’t get into position #3 (without holding something).”
You have poor neural connectedness to the posterior chain or too tight hamstrings. One or the other or both.
“First I’ve never seen a male in this position. Anyone have that picture?”…
Joe, it’s not your penis or your ankles. It’s your brain not being wired, as of yet, to your butt and hamstrings, coupled possibly with inflexible hamstrings.
By the way, full recruitment of your hip flexors can compensate, (and they should be engaged fully regardless) for much of that hamstring inflexibility. The hip flexors can and should stretch the hamstrings in a tug-of-war for control of the pelvis.
Jason W. #47, “Try an overhead squat and all of your weaknesses in that movement will be highlighted.”
“Generally, I find that hip flexibility is to blame. This and core stability. It’s rarely an issue within the ankle, in my experience”.
Good observations, Jason. I would however be more specific than identifying the joint as being inflexible and auger down to the muscles limiting the joints mobility, and, in this case it is the hamstrings.
Get over the ankle flexibility bit; that’s not the limitation. Similarly, the concern about the knees going over the toes is malarkey – even when spouted from the mouths of MD’s or PT’s Try getting to your feet from seated without driving a knee over the toes. You cannot. The real knee issues arise when we squat without sending the knee over the toe, e.g. typical Smith Machine squat and wall-sits, where trapping the hip, which is what keeps the knees from going forward, creates a shear on the knee that can actually be felt as pain/discomfort.
Finally, putting a load on the body alters its mechanics, balance, and posture. That’s OK.
The “air squat” we teach is a “proto” or “meta” squat prepping for Rip’s laden, be it back, overhead, or front squat.
As a point of interest and discussion, twenty-five “Tabata squats”, (our protocol of air squatting for reps to Izumi Tabata’s famed interval) will only come from the more upright posture found in the third picture.
Great day, all!
Was recomended crossfit by a friend. Like it!
I'm putting the final touches on this idea today.
"Glenwood Wrestling ~ Holiday Training Contest"
"In an effort to encourage independent training and to maintain strength and endurance gains, Glenwood Wrestling will award athletes with recognition for their hard work conducted indepently over the Christmas Holiday break"
Trophies will be awarded to the top 5 athletes and ribbons awarded to an additional 5 athletes.
Christmas break [2 weeks] has always been a time in the middle of wrestling season where progress is lost and kids quit improving. This experiment will include 45 middle school wrestlers competing for trophies using home gym examples and CF-type workouts, ... hard and fast.
I'll take in my homemade wall ball as an example of creativity. Workout log forms will include an example sheet with some of my recent CF workouts.
Last year our pushup contest ended with a new record by Brock Barnhill, ... 560 pushups.
Worked up to 335x3
Felt weak this morning.
My form was a bit "immature" (per the picture) at the end. Didn't quite go all the way down, either.
Started with CFWU
Ended with Tabata thrusters (oly bar only).
3 x 45
4 x 45 (oops)
3 x 50
3 x 50
3 x 50
I did BS 245 x5x5 last night after practice.
Will do BS x5x3 tonight.
Frank: 47/ 205 #
I've been following crossfit for about a month, with outstanding results. I love the site and workouts and could go on and on about it.
Question: I've noticed some discomfort-irratation in my knees lately. I'm alittle concerned. The rest of my body and joints are fine.
Ofcourse, before crossfit I never did squats, deadlifts etc.
Any suggestions or ensight? Am I doing something wrong?
Just didn't feel right.
So how do I get my hip flexors to engage? Tense my quadriceps when I'm in the bottom position?
I coach middle school wrestling also and think this is a great idea. We're not giving our kids anytime off though...we have workouts/training scheduled throughout the break. :-0
Aye, but so many kids still travel with family at that age that its hard to have a quality workout - half the guys are gone. We'll meet for practice only 5 days during the 2 week break and then compete in the first tournament on the weekend that they return. Our high school kids don't get off except for Christmas and New Years day.
"Character - what a man will do when he thinks noone else is watching."
I was watching the video of the back squat under exercises and the women performing the weighted back squats appears to be performing her squats like photo number two. Just an observation.
I need some help here
Question: I've noticed some discomfort-irratation in my knees lately. I'm alittle concerned. The rest of my body and joints are fine.
I've been doing crossfit for about a month: before crossfit I never did squats, deadlifts etc.
Any suggestions or ensight? Am I doing something wrong?
#39 Andy - none of that matters when you have big pointy teeth like this.
Bwt 113 - Feeling a little tired today; kept the weight light. Barefoot and beltless.
topped out at 275 lb. today
plyometric w/o afterwards
225 x 3
275 x 3
295 x 3
315 x 3
#77 Andy W, quit pickin' fights. Coach has eloquently explained the 3 pictures in the comments so there's no need to start splitting hairs. Do the WOD.
#64 Kevin, uhhhhh what? 560 push ups? That's insane.
Funny there is a piccie on the main page of what I did- Yes, wife squats!! Only mine were either piggy back style , which I didn't feel comfortable going really deep then changed to face to face.Going much deeper this time.Loaded up to 25 kg extra in rucksack for last set of very deep squats plus her 65 kg (estimate) body weight. :)
That's right! Previous record was 420 and then last year we had 4 guys in the 400's.
44 kids,... about 40 minutes,... lowered chest down to partner's fist on the mat, ... sweating, ... arms trembling, ... complete anguish. Told them that it doesn't matter how many you do, ... you just have to do ONE more that the other guy. Anything for a trophy!
It changes what the boys think of as "alot of pushups" sort like how the marathon changes your thoughts of what "far" means,... or how CF changes your ideas on pullups.
38 yo bwt 157
CFWU x2 + Burgeoner WU
205 x1 Failed on 2nd
Well, I still have an immature squat, after 6 years of training. I had no idea about the difference between air and back squat form until today. It looks like I need more hip flexibility and more form practice. Thanks Coach.
It might look like I am picking a fight, but I am not trying to pick one. I would really like to discuss squatting form with anyone in this forum or via email. Again, this is not to start a fight. I just find this subject interesting.
If you watch Annie squat in the bottom to bottom Tabatas video it looks like she's closer to #2. Would you agree? I know I'm closer to #2 myself and have some good tabata scores consistently as well.
Andy... reread what Coach wrote and Ripptoe #19
Felt like doing OHS, so, first I did:
95 x 5
105 x 5
135 x 5
155 x 1
145 x 3
135 x 5
Then back squat:
225 x 3
245 x 3
265 x 3
275 x 3
285 x 3 (pretty sure this was my old single lift pr).
JackM, I guess I'm the only one who got the Def Leppard reference in Comment #1...
Now, whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, I don't know....
the irritation in your knees might be some slight tendonitis, i'm not a doctor but i do get nailed w/ tendonitis a lot. maybe try to lessen the weight a bit and commit to RICE (rest ice compression elevation) after you workout. i get the same stuff nowadays after years of mma/bjj/wrestling/muay thai and pretty brutal conditioning routines...after i took some time off to get surgery on my shoulder i would get lots of little injuries like what your talking about.
The "back squat" exercise video is cut short. Is the back squat just a squat with weight or is there something special you do with your back once you're squatting?
#32, and #34 Kevin gp
I think I now understand what you were asking. Were you asking is it better to work up to a 3rep max or pick a weight say 90% of your 3rep max and then squat all sets with the same weight? If that is what you were asking then I do not know the answer. I believe I was trying to provide an answer to the wrong question. Forgive my ignorance.
You got to love it when both Coach and Rip break it down for everyone. Now lets see how many poeple actually take the time to read their posts and learn. Or don't, and post questioning everything again.
Get some, Go again!
280 (couldn't do third one, did a half squat)
225-255-265-275-285(missed the bottom on the last rep)
65x3,75x3,95x3,105x3,115x3(PR for 3 reps)
WOD as rx'd
last sets noticed form getting weak - leaning forward a bit
Army Calisthenics plus
One legged squats, 2 each side using squat rack to assist in balance
1 mile run
135x3 (high bar)
My top set was 40 lbs less than when we did this a couple weeks ago. I hit my knee pretty hard playing flag football last night, so I didn't want to push my Steve Austin ($6,000,000 not 3:16) ACL too much.
Subbed one of Eva's WODs (10 rounds of 10 situps and 10 burpees), my r.f. still feels a bit sore/shaky/strained/etc and getting over this darn cold. My goal for 2007 is to not always be sick or injured. Maybe cut back on the intensity/volume for a while (gasp! shock! horror!)
hey DJ, my doctor told me not to get my knees over my toes. And I wanted to ask you what's wrong with the one in the middle? ;)
Tree- You should tell you Dr to place his head between his legs and go "POP". Thus imitating the sound of his head coming out of his ass. ;)
I hear you coach. You're absolutely right and I'll remember that.
28 yo male
Modified CFWU x 2
10 x air squat
10 x back-extension
10 x incline sit-up
10 x lunge walk
10 x 95#
8 x 115#
6 x 135#
5 x 145#
Back squat 3-3-3-3-3 reps
3 x 155#
3 x 155#
1 x 165# (kind of failed on this first one, lost stability)
3 x 135#
3 x 135#
29 yo male
There's a lot of discussion about this profile view of the athlete and hip flexion.
However, I find when doing these 3RM squats that I have trouble keeping a straight spine (when seen head-on). I used to row sweep (one oar) so I suspect I have an overdeveloped right erector spinae group. At the bottom of the exercise, I can see my hips to the right of my shoulders, suggesting my right side is compensating for a weak left side.
Are there ways to adjust for this, e.g. one-legged squat?
DJ, I'll let you take on my doc. :) But just tell me, is it bad form if I can't keep my weight on my heels? ;) *ducking*
Just playin' everyone--G-d knows I ask the same questions over and over again.
BS 315 didn't push it wanted to do snatches
Snatch 95,115,135,155 x 2, 175 Fail, 155x2
36 yo, bw 228
Warmup 135x10, 165x6, 195x2, 225x1
WOD 245x3, 255x3, 265x3, 275x1, 255x3, 255x3
145x1 (bailed on 2nd)
I wasn’t making the point that being able to squat like the third position would prevent you from being able to squat like positions one and two. My contention is that not being able to squat like number three prevents being able to squat optimally laden or unladen.
(I’ve seen Tabata squats at 20 done with form like position number one - squats where the butt moves and the head doesn’t.)
That being said, in reference to the B2B’s with Annie:
1. Stop your player at the rest on any of the intervals, the hard part, and you’ll find that Annie is, indeed, more like position three than two.
2. This effort, B2B’s at 20, is a 70% effort for Annie. She’s screwing around.
3. She even rounds her backs slightly on a few reps.
4. Finally, Annie can do 28’s on regular Tabata’s and has done an eighth interval at 29 just to make the point, and anyone who can do that can also hold position number three and the relationship is causal not just correlative.
Your point is well taken. In retrospect (and minus a few bourbons) I realize that when I taught myself to squat all those moons ago, I didn't know any better and skipped right over the air squat. Hence, when I started air squatting for conditioning, I already knew how to activate my posterior chain.
Thanks for the input.
Whew, not sure that I've ever done a workout of triples for anything before, it was pretty darn good.
221,231,241,246,251-Form started to give so I pulled the plug. I got it up no problem, but I wasn't satisfied with my posture.
My 3RM is only about 20lbs off my 1RM? What's that all aboot?
cfwu x 2
185 x 3 x 5
back squat 3x135,185,205,215,200. Felt stiff and slightly sore from FGB yesterday so I backed off from my wimpy max of 225. Now I'm really stiff and I have to go to my wife's company's Christmas party tonight where they'll have a dj playing disco hits from the '70's. I'd rather 3 bars of death. Ah, the things we do for love. BW:176, YOA:58
29 y/o male 200# 67"
435x2 pussed out on third rep, pissed now
405x3 should have went harder
heels flat, A2A, bulging eyeballs & lobster faced
feel incredible, no pain, just lithium in my vains
5 x 3 60kg + 10kg vest.
Easing into it after back injury
BW : 70kg, CFT 1RM : 80kg
WU : CFWU x 1
60,70,75,75(2.5 reps), 70 kg
Then 100 squats just for fun
Body weight 86kg
Today I did 3 consecutive muscle ups on bars in my warm up! Woo!
60kg x 3
80kg x 4
95kg x 3
105kg x 3
120kg x 3
Wasn't stretched whatsoever. My 2RM used to be 120kg, so it's probably better still now.
combined both deadlift and squat workouts into today...let you know how that works out tomorrow.
M / 37 / 185#
205, 215, 220, 225 and 235
3 minute rest between sets....
65# x 3
75# x 3
85# x 3
95# x 3
100# x 3
It was a good workout but I need to start off with 75# next time so that I can work up to a higher weight.
Nice work, Wich, that's huge.
Coach - thank you for the input and the pics. I spent my lunch hour practicing and had reached the same conclusion - I need a little more ham flexibility and hip flexor engagement throughout the movement (current tendency to engage late and not enough).
I'd love to comment about my anatomy throwing off my center of balance, but... I'll leave it hanging for now :0
185 x 3
195 x 3
205 x 3
205 x 3
205 x 3
Right around parallel I start to lose the lordotic curve in my back. This is actually pretty consistent with my air squat, and definitely represents inflexibility in my hips. I've been working the depth pretty hard in the CFWU. Perhaps I need to add some remedial, lightish back squat work getting accostomed to going lower with a load.
However...205 x 3 with relative ease! Thanks, Coach.
i dont know if this is happening to anyone else, but my squat max (esp. back squats) has dropped drastically. i was up near 405 for reps and today...
135x10 front squat
95x10 overhead squat
Coach and Rip, thank you for the clear explanations. I will keep them in mind. In retrospect, my back squat where leaning too much forward.
5x3: 100-110-120-120-120 kg
1 arm 25 kg shoulders press, ladder style, 1 right, 1 left 2 right 2 left, no rest untill failure. step 6 + 3 reps
1 leg barbell deadlifts, right leg/left leg, 1 min rest. 3 reps per leg: 20-25-30-35-40 kg
Nice workout, FGB tomorrow.
Have fun Johan
CFWU x 3
145 x 3 x 5
After reading ALL of the great tips, thoughts, and, advice I decided to stay with one weight amount and focus more on depth and form. I'm didn't try to out think it, but just think more about it.
did yesterday's fight gone bad, total of 351, then did 185/205/225/245/275 for squats
230 (fail, 2 reps, couldn't come out of the hole on third)
BW = 170
Back Squat WoD: 3x 185, 3x 205, 3x 225, 3x 245, 3x 275.
112, 117, 122, 122, 122 x 3
242,247,253,258,264 x 3
+ clean and jerk practice...hang snatch practice
28 y/o 170 lb 5’10” approx 11% bf
Warm up: 3 rounds of 10 squats, 10 sit ups, 10 back extensions, 10 steps walking lunge, 5 ring dips, handstand, Samson stretch. Back squat 45lbs x 10, 65lbs x 5.
95lbs x 3
115lbs x 3
135lbs x 3-3-3
All ass to ankles. 3 minutes rest per set.
Legs felt a little tired from the beginning but overall good workout.
I really wish we had a squat rack, had to do front squats and had to clean from the ground.
2 mi warm-up run
tabata weighted crunches
tabata leg raises
Switched to kg on last set which made it slightly less than 135lb.
60kgx3 is a pr for 3 reps.
Went light since it was my first time back doing any of the slow or Oly lifts since hurting my back being a J-Hole. Felt good, will go heavier next time for sure, but a long way from my PR of 365. Worked out w/Clifton, who's "BS" form was on point by the end!
Dave- Clifton says what's up.
Get some, Go again!
Reps felt good even though I was a little tight. Looking forward to tomorrow.
gaucoin #117...it means 1. your neuromuscular efficiency is getting better (i find those high on that end fail very close to their 1RM...i.e. AFT.. and it takes forever to determine this...as opposed to an inefficient athlete does 20 reps with 90% of their 1RM), 2. you are still priming the system for your -new- squats that we went over last time..
lil pipe BW 167
Did the back squats today without an auto-racker. Rigged the bench up to hold it. It worked as well as it could. Jake and I used the same amount and we concentrated on form.
Our weights: 105,135,185,205,215
We are looking to start holding groups WOD's on friday the 5th. E-mail me or follow the link to our blog if you want to come out. If you live in Richmond you should be there.
bwt 240 age 31
cfwux3rds 15reps of squats,pushups,dips,situps,back ext, 5 dhpu's, 10 kipped, 15 jumping pu's
225x3 275x3 295x3 315x3 335x3
tried to do air squats like the picture and can definitely notice the difference. thx coach for all the knowledge that this site delivers.
I didn't say her knees were too far forward in fact I said that in pic 1 her knees were too far back and I agree with Coach on that matter. I simply dislike the back angle in relation to her femoral length and pelvic tilt.
That being said and referencing Coache's post (I do this because Coach is considerbaly smarter than I am) like Annie I can squat like number three, but I don't believe it to be the most ideal of positions for an air squat. I would like to see an extra couple of degrees of forward tilt, and a more pronounced pelvic tilt and lordosis.
I am being pedantic, you Coach and everyone else knows it!
Coming down with cold and still spent from yesterday's WOD
255x3 265x3 275x3 265x3 255x3
46 yo male 215lbs 74"
been a while for squats
135,185,205,225,245 - still taking it easy on the back
245,255,265,275,300 (very close)
185, 185, 195, 195, 145
This was hard after FGB. No surprise.
All squats A2A with good form.
Should I not be doing loaded squats unless my air squats look like pic #3?
Also, is it okay to hold onto a vertical pole or something and lean back to get into that position during the air squat? Should I be doing all my air squats that way until I no longer need the assistance?
I hurt my back almost every time we squat heavy and I think the info. posted today is starting to help me figure out why.
CFWU x 3
warm up with #75
85, 95, 105, 115, 110
Then practiced from doing air squats
Having a hard time getting enough weight & keeping form to get a good workout on the low reps/ high weights.
by the way, comment #1--nice def leppard reference!
Row 2500m for warmup
WOD as rx'd (BW 184)
3x 100Kg (220#)
3x 100Kg (220#)
3x 120Kg (242#)
3x 130Kg (284#) tie PR
3x 140Kg (308#) PR
Last two sets were below parallel but not fully A2A. Still very happy with squat progress in the last 3 months. Goal is 180Kg (396#).
Finished up with 5x5 Front Squat full A2A with a pause at the bottom and focusing heavily on form.
Tried a couple of 40Kg OHS to good depth but almost fell over on the third attempts and decided that I had done enough today. Almost half way to BW OHS - long way to go yet.
Coach, Rip, Pierre (et al), thanks for the interesting discussion on squat mechanics. I learn more everyday.
As rx'd: 225, 245, 265, 285, 295
didn't feel too pumped today. I found I was getting a bit too much of a forward lean on the ascent. Maybe all the discussions on posture today had me self conscious.
added romanian deadlifts for sets of 5
bwt - 155
Went home and did 3x through 5 muscle-up practice, 10 ab wheel (knees). Good workout...also, I walked into the gym today to see these two women I have been trying to wean off the gravitron doing pullups! They were helping each other, but doing good ones too. It's awesome to watch other people become stronger, and also see where you could get stronger too.
Feeling a bit weak. 95-95-100-100-105. Sigh!
This is what I'm going to say at the risk of alienating myself:
1. If your mass is not over your base and you drop your arms you will fall on your ass!
Falling on you ass is the opposite of what you should be doing in a squat. Your mass should be distributed over the base (foot) evenly. This means your knees may go forward and your hips will follow. Your shoulders should be over your base.
The position of the torso should be approximately the same or only slightly more upright than in the bottom position of the Overhead Squat or Front Squat:
2. Put yourself somewhere between two and three and you should be good to go!
3. The more upright and out of line your torso is with your base the less involved your hamstrings become. This is bad!
This is what I want you to try:
- Cross your hands and place them on the front of your shoulders
- Pull your scapula (shoulder blades) together you will notice a pronounced arch in your back and your pelvis will roll up
- Squat for reps
Now compare this to keeping your back as upright as possible with your hands out in front of you. Squat for reps, now drop your hands mid squat.
The length of your levers and subsequent flexibility of those muscles will be the determining factor behind the anthropomorphic position you assume.
WAIT thats giberish, The length of your legs and back will determind the angles during the squat for you, you aren't meant to tell the angles not to be there! Listen to basic physics: Spread the mass evenly over your base while maintaining postural alignment. (aka keep your freakin back arched)
Sorry that was meant to say #155
295 (x2, F on 3)
No rack. Subbed Box squats to bucket.
All weights cleaned from floor, pressed into and out of back squat position.
Legs had plenty left, shoulders did not thanks to fight gone bad.
1 min rest
N: 95,115,135,145,155 x 3
J: 225, 240, 255, 265, 270 x 3
First time poster, third WOD that I've done, and I'm loving it.
I've always done set of 8-12 reps, never going over around 120, so tonight was fun to push a bit with the smaller reps. 155 was not terribly difficult, but considering my a) relative inexperience with squats, b) lack of spotter, and c) connective tissues that are not used to these loads, I think I'll proceed slowly from here, even though I think my muscles could do quite a bit more. Excited to see what comes next!
A good 10 minutes of stretching
135 x 3
145 x 3
155 x 3
165 x 3
185 x 3 - some crappy form on the last one, went down butt to floor and couldn't explode up, really had to wiggle and jiggle but i got erect while training to maintain a somewhat straight back.
10 minutes in the hot tub :P
practiced bar muscle-ups
first worked form on the gravitron w/ assistance
then did a couple free on the bar
also practiced air squats on a balance platform
That was exactly what I was asking. I originally thought Trevor was saying something like take a light weight for the first 3 reps and then build to your max in the last 2 reps. That was because I was thinking of 5 reps like on the deadlift day. So you and I were both guilty of not actually reading the post we were questioning.
I generally approach 1, 1, 1... days as max days and 3, 3, 3... or 5, 5, 5... days as max work days which means that I want the highest weight I can get through all the sets with. If, however, Coach's intention is to work to an absolute max then I am doing it wrong. He may have some metabolic reason for working to an absolute max or maybe there is some reason for working the total amount of work performed instead. I don't know. But I would like to.
Fact is you aren't going to Squat 100% of max for three reps, you are going to squat whatever % of 100% that you can maximally squat for 3 reps see what I mean? Test your 3 rep max...
Personally I rather just test my 1 rep max take 30 pounds off and squat that for 10 sets of 3 but whatever floats your boat...
47 YOM BW-175
'goblet' squats w/40# DB - several sets of 5 reps
110 X 3 WU
130 X 3 WU
140 X 3
150 X 3
150 X 3
160 X 3
160 X 3
finished w/ several sets of 12 reps of 'goblet' squats and 110# 'perfect form' squats. I know - not very impressive... but these chicken legs have to start somewhere!
These are great psychological workouts because you are essentially betting on your ability to add 5 - 10lbs and squat that during the next set. The point is to push-it I think (within reason).
After CFWU and some lighter warm ups
Felt really good...good form, at or below parallel
Well, Pierre, the spotters made all the difference... and I'll go heavier next time - have done @ BW, but not for reps...
220 all sets
Workout completely broken up due to responses.
46yr 175lb bw
3 X CFWU with good sets of all excercises
Warmed up with 135 X5
finished up with 135 for form
Not making the progress that I was expecting. Seems to have problems building strength out of the hole and keep getting stuck at the bottom.
MR C: I can empathize with the "chicken leg syndrome!"
Bill - I inherited them... and work 'em hard for minimal gains ... and my son got 'Pillar' legs!
20 yo, 170 lb
300x3 <- new PR
I haven't done squats in a long time, and the number demonstrate that.
Finished with 4 rounds of 15 pushups, 5 pullups, 5 dips, 20 situps
Ran an easy mile too.
Not bad for being sick.
Felt a bit tired after FGB, can't wait to get back in the gym and redeem myself after this workout.
Not bad, getting better.
WOD BS 245/255/265/275/285 x3
does anyone have info on DHEA-5
3 x 185
3 x 195
3 x 205
3 x 215
3 x 215
next time need to lose the running shoes.
finished with some light squat clean practice
175, 180, 185, 190, 190
177 x 3
197 x 3
217 x 3
222 x 2
222 x 2
Back squat 3-3-3-3-3 reps
Bwt: 177, chicken legs and all
135, 145, 155 (3 sets) I'm weak, but I am going all the way into the hole! Just learning squats, and gotta start somewhere.
CFT for Squat - 250
Sanity Check Please
I am getting re-acquainted with squats thanks to my new found addiction, crossfit. I am ensuring that my form is perfect and I do every rep slowly without any bounce at the bottom. I have found that I am able to do only a fraction of the weight that I could do if I only squat down to just above having my femur perpendicular to the floor. If I do the deep squat with great form, three reps is not enough to get the big stomach punch burn that I am looking for. I have to do 6 to 8 reps to get to that point. Or, I could load up the bar and grunt through 3 reps with bad form but I have no happy medium. With that said:
CFWU x 2 + squat 12 x 95 very slow
160 x 8
160 x 6
220 x 3 (did not break the 90 degree plane, so I did not count it)
160 x 5
160 x 5
160 x 5
Can you help a crossfit brother out?
bw: 198 age: 36 warm up: 15:00 of jump rope.
20, 30, 40, 40, 42.2kg
This was my first attempt at a back squat in several months. Had been rehabbing the left shldr and couldn't comfortably get the bar into position without laying it only across the traps/lower neck.
Finally able to rack the weight properly, but it's a little uncomfortable for the shoulder.
After doing some joint mobility, shadowboxing, pull-ups, and kettlebell swings:
Bar X 10
115 X 5
135 X 3
185 X 3
195 X 3
205 X 3
195 X 3
Finished with some rc exercises, pistol practice, and core stability exercises.
Feels good to be BACK!!!
All work sets at 175#; double kb work in between- 44s for cleans; 35s for presses, clean&presses.
245x1 form started going downhill
Did today's and yesterday's back-to-back...it sucked...had to fight off pukie at the end...
-3X 135/155/175/195/215- last set felt slight twinge in R knee
-FGB, DB thrusters and TM for subs; 120/124/110=354
Almost got stuck a few times...
Ah squats, my old friend. Suprises me how many finess buffs in my class don't do much for there legs, let alone do squats!
Set5: 245# (maybe not the best form)
Personal test: Push-ups and Sit-ups till fail:
Followed up by bench press
This was done at 6:00am btw work and court.
Night workout (9:00pm) was the Concept2, 5000m.
I can feel anything from the waist down... I love it.
210, 210, 220, 220, 220
followed it up w/ 53lb kettle bell swings...30, 25, 20 and then biked on machine w/ heart rate up to 176 for 10mn.....my legs fell off...can no longer do Xfit
315 all times 3 reps.
In the April '06 CFJ when you wrote "trying to keep [the back] too vertical in the bottom interferes with the mission of the hips" was that specifically referring to a back squat or does it apply to the bottom position w/o weight as well?
The context was in regard to keeping the chest up and maintaining the angle of the back.
Fully intended to hit the 100 mark (would have been a first) quads felt good and strong, but pulled something inner thigh during 4th round. I know better than to do this without stretching first!!
didn't make it to the gym... did tabata squats for score 20.
Crossfit SF here I come! I'll be there for the next week or so.
your body functions the same way whether you are loaded or not...
Back Squats when done with a low bar are hip dominant. Let me explain they are a hip exercise, they are harder to do because you require the hamstring to contribute to the extension of the hip.
Your posterior chain is activated by the hamstring at the base of the movement. Misconception is that squats are a quad exercise. NO poorly executed squats are a quad execise and this means your hips are not meeting the knee.
You can't lift as much because you aren't any good at it, you need more practice no offense. Your hamstrings need the work, RDL's, Good Mornings and deep low bar back squats will fix that. Start with something manageable like you just did and gradually increase the weight in moderate increments. This will make you stronger.
At 195lbs your goal should be to squat well over 300lbs. You need to work on it some more...
For instance I weigh 145+/- and squat 250lbs below parallel for a 1 rep max. I can lift more if I had the safe conditions under which to do it. My PR isn't freakin good enough I keep having to work on it...
Listen to this interview between Coach Rippetoe and Charles Staley, its long but its well worth the listen: http://media.staleytraining.com/rippetoe.mp3
205 x 2, failed on 3rd rep
2min between attempts
run to gym
BS oly bar x 10
BS 95# x 10
135# x 3
185# x 3
205# x 3
205# x 3
205# x 3
very deep on all reps
32 / 230#
Back Squats - 3/3/3/3/3
Flexibility not good...stopped just short of pararrel on a couple of reps.
OPT, thanks for enlightening me, I was actually hoping you'd shed some light on that one for me. The only theory I could come up with was that I have cookamungaphobia so your answer is better.
Didn;t feel so hot today. Worn out I guess.
BW: 160 lbs
185, 205, 215, 225, 205
Should be ~ 315 for this WOD! I'll dig harder next time.
Which Kevin were you talking to? If it was me then we differ on our approach - I detailed mine previously.
my point was to outline a different approach than you... Suggestive or otherwise just for something to do really...
wu: 135 x 10
135, 155, 175, 195, 215
3 min rest between sets.
Next time warm up with 10x135, and start at 185.
32 y/o, BW 200
Lost mental focus on the last set. Need to keep the brain/muscle connection solid, especially when tired.
First time at this one so started a bit light.
Had a spotter help on last rep.
Didn't feel like a full workout so then spent fifteen minutes doing an assortment of push-ups (on upside down bosu with 25 lb weight on back, with elevated feet on small ball, with feet elevated higher on larger ball, etc.)
3 mile run 20:00
135 x 10
205 x 3
225 x 3
275 x 3
295 x 3
275 x 3
Worked on form
OK Geniuses- Put a 1-3 RM on squat bar and see if you can POSSIBLY squat like # 3. NO WAY.
low bar BS
185, 225, 245, 265, 275
Snatch practice 2x5,50kg
Bergener warmup, 3ea. OHS, p/s Clean, p/s Snatch
5x3 BS 135, 155, 165, 175, 185
pullups 3x7, 2x6
Just not feeling it, last day of my fast.
Erin: 95, 115, 125,135,140(pr)
Age 51/BW 240
warmed up with 135x5/185x5, then 5x5 @ 235#
m 34 bw 165. still battling a cold.
135 x 5 (warm up)
225 x 5
235 x 5
245 x 5
255 x 3
255 x 4
255 x 4 (couldn't get a 5th no matter what)
Did on a double mat. no straps.
95-105-115-115-125 (failed on last rep)
Damn... wife always said I didn't know my A$$ from my elbow!
(How come she always gets to be right anyway...?)
Pierre - you got yer ears on? Lookin for a client?
A hundred bucks to the person with a cure for tennis elbow turned tendonitis! (Hockey induced NOT CF)
hmmm... maybe that should be a thousand...
... and I'm struggling to be merely immature - thought that one was a gimmie!
I have posted this before but it was late in the discussion and no one saw it, or at least no one commented to me. This is a comparison of the front squat (pic 3 mechanics) and the back squat (pic 2 mechanics). It is a part of the raw manuscript for the next book, including graphics notes that indicate the illustrations I have in mind. I welcome discussion of my analysis.
The front squat is another matter entirely. It is a completely different exercise, different enough from the back squat that it should not be used by novices still trying to learn that movement. Front squats use a different mechanical model than the back squat, in that the hips are not the emphasis.
The differences in the two movements are entirely due to the bar position. In order that the system is in balance the bar must stay over the middle of the foot, while it is in the resting position at the top and as it travels down and up through the whole range of motion of the exercise. The back squat will thus be done with a back angle of somewhere between 25 and 45 degrees forward of vertical to permit the bar’s vertical position over the foot. Since the bar sits on the anterior deltoids in the front squat, with the elbows up and the hands trapping the bar in place, the required back angle is nearly vertical. This extremely upright position places the bar over the feet, and keeps it from falling off the shoulders. Front squats are missed when the weight is too heavy to squat, or too heavy for the back to stay upright enough to hold the bar in place. In either instance, the bar falls away forward. (((GRAPHIC – PHOTOS OF FRONT SQUAT, PROFILE DRAWING SHOWING RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN BAR AND FOOT)))
The position of the bar determines the best way to drive up out of the bottom. The back squat uses a “hips” cue, which enables a more forceful, deliberate initial hip extension. The idea is to drive the butt straight up out of the bottom, which is a way to more effectively make the glutes, hamstrings, and adductors fire. This hip drive is possible because the back is at an angle which permits it; driving the butt up with the chest in front just requires that the chest be maintained in position, preserving the back angle.
This does not work for the front squat. When the back is at an angle, the hips present a “surface” – the top of the glutes, the sacrum, and the lowest part of the lower back – that a coach can touch with the hand and identify to the trainee. A hand can actually be placed on this area and the trainee told to “push it up.”, a neuromuscular cue that greatly improves the efficiency of the contraction of the muscles that produce the movement. The front squat has the hips directly under the bar, or as nearly so as possible, a position which presents no surface for cueing. There is no area close to the hips that presents a surface that can be driven up. The column of the torso stops at the chest and shoulders, and these, along with the elbows, are the surfaces that get cued. A focus on the chest, shoulders, and elbows – driving them up, even on the way down – preserves the vertical position that is so critical to finishing a heavy front squat. This is in stark contrast to the back squat, both in position and in the way the movement is visualized. The differences are great enough that they should not get confused, but they quite often do, and for this reason the front squat is best left untaught until the back squat movement pattern is undisturbable.
Since the front squat has such radically different form, you might expect that it produces a different result than the back squat. The upper back has a much tougher job because the load it is holding up is further away. The bar in a back squat, low bar or Olympic, sits right on top of the muscles that are holding it up. The front squat places the bar all the way across the depth of the chest, which in a bigger guy might be 12 inches away. This is a much longer lever arm than no inches at all and presents a mechanical challenge to the muscles that maintain thoracic extension. It is very common to get pretty sore between the shoulder blades when first starting the exercise. And since the knees are so much further forward than when in back squat position, the hamstrings are not as involved in the hip extension. But the hip extension must still be done, so the glutes end up doing most of the job without the help of the hamstrings. The knees-forward position puts the quads in a position to do most of the work after the initial hip extension.
The primary difference, then, between the two squats is one of degree in terms of the amount of involvement from the contributing muscle groups. But the primary reason for the difference is the position in which the system is in balance – the bar in both cases must be over the middle of the foot, and the correct back angle is the one that keeps it there. (((GRAPHIC – DIAGRAM COMPARING FRONT AND BACK SQUAT, IN PROFILE, PLUMB LINE TO MID FOOT)))
Decided to replace today's CF workout with shoveling 4 feet of snow off of my driveway during a blizzard....twice. Man will I be glad to move out of Colorado
This is my first post. After tinkering with the workouts here for the past couple of months I jumped into the WOD three weeks ago. I'm impressed by the workouts and the numbers I see posted by others. Being a runner, cyclist and weight-pusher I could compete alongside my colleagues in emergency response and considered myself in reasonable shape until I actually started doing these WOD's! I'm hooked. I'm especially compelled to post this day because of today's post by coach #61. I found coaches patient and detailed replies to each person who posted a question very informative. A great attitude comes through in coaches writing.
I'm sore again after workouts and haven't been this sore in years but that's a good thing because as I understand it, muscles don't get stronger if you don't feel the soreness in them after a workout. I still believe I can get faster and stronger for another 50 years or so...
BW 150. 44yrs
155-175-155-155-165 (form not so good at 175)
Did this 12/20/06
CFWU x3 + three minutes rowing
w/u and c/d sets with 135#
I hear you, I see this in pic three:
the torso is as a weight on the end of a lever balanced on a fulcrum with no counter balancing mass. Causing a shearing force in the knee such as a wall squat or smith machine squats. I don't see the difference between the activities, the quad is the primary mover and provides an unbalanced force applied to the joint.
I don't see the activation of the posterior chain.
form started to go on the last set but i made it through three
nice little headrush there at the end too
60, BWT 280. 290-300-310-315-320--new record, with good form, plus 20 minutes (3.1 miles) on the bike--just to get the kinks out.
BW 220 PR-340
first 2 turned into warmups
305 x2.5 (spotter on last up, didn't really help the weight get up tho)
addition to discussion
i think the Front Squat looks alot like #3
would practicing front squats help?
Last three sets worked on depth.
1 rep max 425 (don't judge me)
365x3x2 felt strong on the 1st set, not so on the 2nd...backed it down
all good and deep. fell it in my butt and hips and no quad pain whatsoever. moving the bar down 4 inches made a world of diff.
Pierre Auge comment #216 Thank you soooo much! When you said, and I'm paraphrasing here, "It's the hamstring stupid" it really clicked. I really enjoyed the interview as well. Thanks a bunch.
CFWU x 2
Squeezed this one in after 5x5 deadlift and was burnt. Good, deep form though.
Great explanations from Coach & Rippetoe. Thanks guys.
completed Elizabeth first @ 8:35
legs still smoked after fight gone bad then Liz...stayed light and focused on form.
5x135 warm down
90x3 (to save form)
90x10 (more weight would've ruined form, but wasn't tired yet!)
Sets of 3: 135, 225, 275, 315, 315, 315
Had a pretty strict spotter today - I think I went an inch lower than I'm used to.
Gotta recruit that posterior chain some more.
5 sets of 3 on the bench: 225, 235, 245, 255, 265
2 sets each arm of 5x1 arm KB presses, 72 lb KB
2 sets eacg arm of 3x1 arm DB presses, 85 ib DB
did 145-180# very weak.
Internet down kind of, long story. Did this yesterday.
Never done back squats really so started low weight, built up. I will say with all the CF I'm doing, my core is getting stronger, so I didn't feel as uncomfortable at these as with other power/oly lifts I'm learning, or perhaps that's the nature of back squats, I don't know. Anyway, here's how it went:
then a couple sets practice back squats with broomstick, then with 45 lb. bar:
1: 115 lbs.
2: 135 lbs.
3: 155 lbs.
4: 155 lbs.
5: 165 lbs.
2 mins. rest between sets.
I don't do Crossfit for the workouts, I go here to see the hot girls in WOD pics like this one.
w/u 225/275/295/315/325 (3rd rep was only to parallel) 275/275
All my squats have been significantly deeper sincd doing crossfit.
Warmup: 1 mile @ 7.0; then empty bar BSx10
Get ups:25lb x 10
15lb. med ball situps:20x20x20
Run 1 mile@ 7.0
Front Squat 5 x 5
135 x 5
155 x 5
185 x 5 (form suffered #s 4 and 5)
165 x 5
165 x 5
1 mile 6:08
1 mile 7:35
warmup cf x2 mod'd
run to beach about 45"
255x3 x 5 sets. Tried to stay low and work on form. rep 3 of the last 2 sets were SLOW. Good last reps.
225 form faltered
used hammer squat
Back squat 3-3-3-3-3 reps
3 x 40
3 x 50
3 x 60
3 x 65
3 x 70
Weight in KG:
80 x 3
100 x 3
90 x 3
100 x 3
100 x 3
Stuck at 100 as wanted to work a little on going slightly lower as wasn't sure with this weight.
Fight gone bad