gonna tackle fight fone bad 2morrow with burpees or 30 sec run as sub 4 rowing. GOD HELP ME!

Ahh...the lovely ladies of Crossfit...just need the calender to come out now...Jan is Ms Push Press...March is Ms Muscle Up.....Dec Ms Squat Clean. I'd comment on the article but it seems that the 5 beers have made my mind as simple as a 3 yr old at this point. Now to put the square peg in the round hole...

Rather sobering article. Time will tell how prescient he is.

Thanks for the article, I appreciate the insight to the madness.

great work, Nicole!

How many people will have to lose loved ones for this filmmakers words to sink in? As Americans we are unable to fathom the depths to which these people will go to destroy our way of life, and until we take off our gloves and lay down some real punishment these suicide/homicide bombers and all they stand for will make headlines.

Wow. Interesting article. I'm not entirely convinced that suicide bombers are created by anxiety due to separation between men and women. That seems like a very simplistic explanation, especially since there are other subcultures and religions (including Orthodox Judaism) that have a similar separation. I suppose one solution would be to blow yourself and others up... another would be to get married. I realize he gave other explanations as well, but this seemed to be the predominant one and I'm entirely unconvinced.

I was a bit disturbed likening suicide bombers to cowboys or firemen. Fighting for death and fighting for life = 2 entirely different things.

Here's a list of Islamic terrorist attacks for the past 5 months:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks

did fight gone bad today, was killer. Don't have a rower so I substituted the rows with sprawls and heavy bag drills.

I <3 Nicole.

Treelizard,

I agree great article, I actually thought the firemen/cowboys part was very well put. There is definitely a strong and simplistic hero element to the suicide bomber myth which is exactly why it is attractive to certain Islamic young men.

The sex thing and relations between men and women is definitely a strong factor. I agree it's not wise to look at that in isolation as other groups have similar traits and don't react the same way but it is a trigger factor on top of other factors that those other groups don't have.

As someone who lives in a primarily soft muslim country (Indonesia) I can attest to the fact that an attempt to bring in a creeping harder Arabisation to local culture is in progress and a big part of that is redefining the role of women and what freedoms they enjoy. Just do a search for sharia law in Aceh or Tangerang to get some background. I could write a lot about this but my main point is that I think the article is largely on the ball for the above reasons.

Yes, you could (easily) take issue with his comments about the UN (common sense tells us that until these nations have a security council veto they could hardly be said to dominate the UN)and is he really claiming that Israel's treatment of the Palestinians (I should point out that on most issues I'm very stongly pro Israel) hasn't in any way contributed to the number of suicide bombers? But in the main he seems pretty spot on.

RDC,

Well, I definitely agree that the supression of women has a lot to do with evil... there HAS to be a balance. One of my teachers pointed out that women are the center of these attacks although the media doesn't point this out, like in France where women are being burned alive for daring to wear pants. He always points out that cultures that sacrifice their women and children ALWAYS historically die out, that neither France nor Islam will survive their current incarnation.

I do believe that blaming Israel for suicide bombers is like blaming a rape survivor for the actions of the rapist. I don't buy any of the excuses. There are a lot of things that could have easily "triggered" such a reaction in Israel and other oppressed countries, but these other countries haven't responded that way. I think the problem is the attempt to make sense of something nonsensical. It's a mistake a lot of people make in self-defense situations, and it's the same excuse terrorists make. Just give them what they want and they'll leave you alone, they say, just start negotiating so they can take and take and take and take some more. There's a lack of logic in their behavior, trying to empathize or reason it out is I believe a mistake. Most people with a modicum of street awareness can recognize this in a self-defense situation, and yet they try to look at it logically when it is a group of people or a country. It doesn't make sense.

Of course the distinction between firemen and cowboys and terrorists is whether they respect life or death. I can't see how people would fail to see that. I don't know if I entirely agree with Tolkien since I really do love warriors, but I like this quote (from memory, so forgive me if I got it wrong) “I love not the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.” Anyone who thinks they are heroic, I have to ask, who are you SERVING? Very different than who are you killing. What do you stand FOR, not against. Being willing to sacrifice your life isn't enough.

As far as the U.N... don't get me started on the UN! They basically are terrorist sympathizers, and I can back that up...

Some quotes from Arab-American psychiatrist Wafa Sultan:

"The clash we are witnessing around the world is not a clash of religions, or a clash of civilizations. It is a clash between two opposites, between two eras. It is a clash between a mentality that belongs to the Middle Ages and another mentality that belongs to the 21st century. It is a clash between civilization and backwardness, between the civilized and the primitive, between barbarity and rationality. It is a clash between freedom and oppression, between
democracy and dictatorship. It is a clash between human rights, on the one hand, and the violation of these rights, on other hand. It is a clash between those who treat women like beasts, and those who treat them like human beings. What we see today is not a clash of civilizations. Civilizations do not clash, but compete."

"The Jews have come from the tragedy (of the Holocaust),and forced the world to respect them, with their knowledge, not with their terror, with their work, not their crying and yelling. Humanity
owes most of the discoveries and science of the 19th and 20th centuries to Jewish scientists. 15 million people, scattered throughout the world, united and won their rights through work and
knowledge. We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church. We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people. The Muslims have turned three Buddha statues into rubble. We have not seen a single Buddhist burn down a Mosque, kill a Muslim, or burn down an embassy. Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people, and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them."

Treelizard,

Yes! great quotes, I liked that link you sent especially as it led to a very interesting letter/article in the (London) Times that I'd missed.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1072-2359800,00.html

I'm slightly curious by some of your reply though. First the blaming Israel for suicide bombers part, I don't believe I did blame Israel for suicide bombers (and I don't) my general point is simply that to state that Israeli actions have no bearing at all ,as the article seems to state, on the current situation is surely hard to defend. Your victim of violence point is a good one to illustrate this. Take the recent Israeli actions in the Lebanon, I firmly believe use of force was justified there but when it became disproportionate particularly by destroying local infrastructure it was surely only contributing to more attacks on Israel in the future. I can tell you exactly what images local TV here were showing while the campaign was going on.

Now the article actually anticipates this by offering a solution which is that the use of force (if it is to be used) should be so overwhelming that attacks would cease now and for all time. Do you think those Israeli actions were so overwhelming that attacks will cease now and for all time? I hope so but I doubt it. Indeed, the recriminations in Israel at the moment are precisely because the recent actions are suspected of not having met their objectives.

Although there was much of your answer I liked, you're slightly barking up the wrong tree (I couldn't resist it, sorry!) about the cowboys thing. The author wasn't using that metaphor to say the suicide bombers are like cowboys and firemen (of course they're not and you explain well why not) he was using that metaphor simply (I think) to show how widespread the suicide bomber myth as a role model among among Islamic youth is. It was scary but powerful and therefore I thought well chosen by the author.

And feel free to attack the UN. I consider UN administrative reform and reduction in UN corruption an urgent priority. I was merely pointing out that the security council still hold the whip hand by right of veto.

Typical responses -treelizard ,RDC- from a typical crossfit poltical post-ie islam bashing .

Suicide bombers because of pent up sexual frustration??? You have to be kidding- Americans really you cant be that stupid ??? then again you did vote in george bush....That is what Americans refuse to understand- suicide bombers ie the palestinians are so profoundly crushed under the Isaeli/american rule that they have no other out........american christians(dispensationlists) so strongly supportive of israel beacause of some misinterpreted biblical philsophy is sickening.....you people must wake up....what is sick and evil and nazi-like is americas invasion of afghanistan and iraq for the sake of oil..........freedom and democracy is what you say but surely your entire nation cannot be that gullible-4000 died in 9/11, but how many countless 4000`s innocent muslims have died long before and after 9/11-alas we do not hear or reflect or remember them ....of course they do not count , because muslims are all evil inhuman animals........well thats what your media would have you all believe , thats what the owners of this site would have you all believe........when 4000 muslims die its collateral damage, when 4000 americans die its terrorism...if terrorism is killing innocent civilians then AMERICA IS NUMBER ONE ......israel kills 1500 lebanese civilians-THAT IS AMERICAN SPONSORED TERRORISM.....then you wonder why the arab world is anti american.........supposedly us muslims are tring to destroy your civilisation??What a load of crap.........all we want is for you to leave Arab land and Arab oil alone - the jew wants the land the american wants the oil and the fulfilmeny of some biblical zionist philsiophy.........we couldnt give a damm aboout your so called `civilsation`- the adultery , the affairs , the drugs , the alcoholism , the gay lifestyles, the crime , the peadophilia, the divorce rates , your obesity epidemic, - just look at your pathetic shows like Jerry springer and one realises that america is a decadent society destroyng itself- muslims do not aspire to that trash............suicide bombers due to sexual frustration , THAT IS JUST PLAIN PATHETIC .

The focus on the suicide bombers is too microscopic, it is generally a story of cultural manipulation to induce self-sacrifice. We do the same in the Judeo-Christian west, and our targets very likely would be the same if we were a hopelessly outgunned minority on the verge of extinction, or were desperate in some other way. In Vietnam for example, the US record of outright murder of innocent civilians suspected of giving aid and comfort to the Viet Cong is not so good.
This is all a waste of time intellectualization of the problem. The Islamic extremists are the bad guys and should be destroyed. If they try to bring this kind of thing here, then internment camps and other stern measures will be required, even if this means revising the Constitution to facilitate it. The original proscription was against establishing a state sponsored religion, it said nothing about banning a bunch a nutcases who advocate seriously felonious misconduct. The alternative will be to put this country in a state of lockdown with security checkpoints and heavily armed protective forces all over the place. This will be the last straw and hopefully Americans will reject that course. No one said freedom has to be pretty.

Who do you think you're fooling GTT, the Arabs were the original sodomites and bestialists. The worst barbarism of the west does not begin to approach the depravity of the Arabs.

RDC,
Sorry if I misinterpreted! You wrote "is he really claiming that Israel's treatment of the Palestinians (I should point out that on most issues I'm very stongly pro Israel) hasn't in any way contributed to the number of suicide bombers?" -- it read to me like you were saying that it HAS (even though you are pro-Israel on other issues.) Can you see how your statement could lead to that interpretation? It's sort of like if you responded to a WSD article by saying "Is he really claiming that the way women dress (I should point out that on most issues I'm very strongly pro-women) hasn't in any way contributed to the number of rapes?"

I certainly don't think Israel's response was disproprotionate, btw, nor do I think it precipitates more attacks. Apparently giving back land that IDF soldiers have died defending doesn't prevent attacks.

As far as the firemen or cowboy statement, he wrote "As discussed above, libido is paramount. Also ego, because this is a sure way to become a hero. The shaheeds are the cowboys or the firemen of Islam. Shaheed is a positively reinforced value in this culture. And what kid has never dreamed of becoming a cowboy or a fireman?" Can you see how one could read this as implying that firemen or cowboys are serving out of ego? Maybe some of them are, but I doubt most of them are. Well, I don't know about cowboys. lol.

I think I'm taking myself too seriously. :)

I'll save the UN bashing for later...

GTT--I promise I'm not a typical crossfitter. I've never even been to a cert! :P I didn't vote for Bush, and I'm not a Christian. My "Islam bashing" is because they keep trying to kill my friends and family members. I'll stop "Islam bashing" once Muslims start denouncing acts of terrorism, how's that sound?

Suicide bombers have no other out? Do they not have choice or free will either?

As far as comparing Americans to Nazis... somehow I know that was going to come up. Look up the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and founder of the Arab League, Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, if you're interested in Muslim (PALESTINIAN) troops collaborating with and fighting for Hitler. And if you don't understand the difference between terrorism and warfare, you probably never will.

Last I checked, there is a lot of adultery, affairs and rape in Muslim countries, maybe as much as there is here. The only difference is we don't sentence people to death for it for it.

I read an article in the Jan 7th issue of Iran Focus in which an Iranian court sentenced a teenage rape victim to death by hanging after she confessed to unintentionally killing a man who tried to rape her and her niece. They were attacked by three thugs (and their boyfriends took off on their motorcycles--some "men"). The article also mentioned a 16 year old who was sentenced to death for committing "acts incompatible with chastity"--is this what you support? Adultery is immoral (I agree with that btw), but murdering children for it is okay?

Fight gone bad from yesterday (due to tummy bug) 252.

An Israeli man gets stopped at immigation in London airport.

"Occupation?" asks the immigration officer.

"No, just tourism" replied the Israeli

Treelizard, Any confusion was my fault! I can write appalingly badly with almost no effort whatsoever! Well I hope you're right but I'm sadly more pessimistic. I think the Israeli actions (I see now there will be an inquiry, I think the Israeli cabinet voted for one with one two against and one abstainer)will not have had the desired intention of preventing attacks on Israeli soil, in fact radicals here have probably been bolstered by the Israeli actions. The next bomb here might not be in Bali but probably Jakarta.

GTT, Nice strawman of my position, you've clearly got cutting edge internet debating skills! I bow before you. I would point out though that we're talking specifically about the psychology of suicide bombers and not the wider Palestinian question. Would love to reply properly but I'm going out for dinner with some Muslim friends (don't worry all will be halal).

Treelizard and RDC

What is this? A kinder gentler rest day? :)

I'm off to tailgate and then watch the Eagles wipe the Giants all over the Linc today.

Ryan

Open your eyes, folks. We're not much different. We like 18 year old Marines. We like to make heroes out of them (which we should). The truth is, they're easy to manipulate. They do our dirty work for us. (I was one of them). At 18 I was ready to kill anyone. I thought it was noble. I thought it was right. When my brothers were bombed in Beruit, I was more than ready to take a life or give my life for this country. I'm still idealistic. As a fireman, I am called to save lives even if it means sacrifcing my own. It's idealistic but it works for me. It doesn't really matter who's in charge. Democrat, Republican, male, female, Christian, Muslim. It's all the same. The grunts do the dirty work while the big dogs eat steak and live the good life. My prayers go to all the "sacrificial lambs" on both sides of the fence that give up their rights so that we can have ours! OOH RAH!!!

I was under the impression anyone who honestly bought into Marxist class warfare enough to suggest that firefighters and suicide bombers are similarly exploited would be a non-red meat consuming vegetarian anyway.

Anyone interested in a more in-depth and nuanced look into suiicide terrorism and the why's/wheres/how's of it should check out Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism by Robert Pape.

RTC: I save my venom for people who want to murder women, children and civilians (okay, esp. Jewish civilians). But I'd be more than happy to go toe to toe with you over your fanatical obsession with doing things as rx'ed even though it's not the rest day topic. :) I'm sure you're stronger than me, but I just might be faster...cover your low line. :P I did Candy as rx'ed except with PU assistance (because I "could") but it tooked me 53 minutes and my pushup form sucked and I didn't get my heart rate up. I decided it'd be a good idea to do a scaled-down version with better form and time next time. Since you are so vehemently opposed to this, I was wondering where you're getting your research that indicates that it is better to take forever doing a workout, screwing up your form and not raising your heartrate? I don't think it helped anything but my own ego (and not even that, because I felt stupid afterwards.)

Todd: Vegetarians don't eat poultry or fish, either. ;) "Those who turn their swords to ploughshares will plough for those of us who don't."

Ben: What, no summary?!

First FGB today. Details posted ystd.

292

Kinda bummed not to get 300.

another interesting article. Have there been any studies done with support this kind of vieuw, or some with speak against it?

Did some extra "skill" work today:
- 1000 mtr row (interval 100 mtr top speed, 100 mtr recuperate)
- 10x GH sit-up (never done these for real before)
- 5x 30 kg OH squat (need tp practise these more)
- ladderdownwards of 1 leg squats, 5 right, 5 left, 4 right, etc to 1 (another skill that needs work)
- 5x 30 kg OH squat
- 10x GH sit-up
- 1000 mtr row (only 500mtr interval, steady pace the last 500 mtr)
I was spend!
Have a nice day, and enjoy your discussions. Johan

I seem to be forever hampered by the fact that I can't get a C2 and free weights under the same roof.

Biked yesterday and did 3x 1000M row, 30 pullups, 30 pushups.

23:20. Didn't warm-up well so I was slow to start and sucking wind at the end.

Did yesterdays WOD today I had three of my grandkids yesterday and we played at the park in the sunshine!So did wod as rxd with a sub of 2 15lb dumbells for the wallball.What a workout my legs are "jelly.

"Describe the culture that manufactures suicide bombers.

Oppression, lack of freedom, brain washing, organized poverty, placing God in charge of daily life, total separation between men and women, forbidding sex, giving women no power whatsoever, and placing men in charge of family honor, which is mainly connected to their women's behavior."

Luckily nothing like that exists in Western Culture and religions.

I'm not overly impressed with the article. He didn't reveal anything unique. Worse yet, a person can point to western civ equivalents that did not create a similar suicide bomber mentality. His poor attempt at the end to connect Radical Islam with Nazism undercuts history and reality. Lebanon and Iran I guess can be modern equivalent as they are democracies. However countries like Afghanistan, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are not democracies and do not appear to set up a Military Industrial complex. Luckily those three countries never developed suicide bombers in support of Naz..I mean Islamism.

Maybe next he can tackle that Western civilization variant called the suicidal gunman. Granted, we don't have indoctrination centers churning such characters out, they tend to develop on their own.

Just wondering: Suicidal actions in support of military objectives or defense of civilian lives is ok, correct? We do idolize soldiers and firemen and cops that stand fast even when death is immenent. Granted, comparing that to suicide bombers is akin to comparing a tank attack against a military base vs a tank attack against downtown Omaha.

Suicidal weapons could be a reasonable military asset, so long as they're not used against civilian targets (Dresden not withstanding). Fortunately the US does not develop such a mentality in its citizenry as I don't think suicidal weaponry is reasonable.

nuke-marine:
here is how nazism and radical islam are similar: the nazi party engaged in a lengthy campaign of subjugating and then exterminating non-arian peoples; radical islam is currently engaged in a similar campaign to subjugate and exterminate non-muslim peoples.

To Nowan, comment #23
Don't ever speak as a Marine or for the Marine Corps again. Yeah Yeah I realize that probably wasn't your intention. As an infantry officer I have had the extreme honor of leading young men in combat. After two combat deployments I assure you that our young men our thinking, creative warfighters. Afterall, in a counter-insurgency they know they have to in order to stay alive. Either you were a spineless enlisted guy, or an incompetent officer.

For those of you interested in a scientific and peer reviewed approach to the phenomenon of suicide terrorism, Scott Atran (who has briefed the Bush administration a number of times) of the University of Michigan is an excellent source:

http://www.sitemaker.umich.edu/satran/relevant_articles_on_terrorism

It seems Atran's conclusions cut across much of what has already been said here: suicide terrorism appears to be the result of a counter-intuitive and fictive theology which takes advantage of a disillusioned and displaced population. I take it that Atran's general conclusion is that univariate causal thinking may not apply to such complex phenomena. (Like the human body!)

GTT, #15,

My sincerest hope is that you'll get exactly what you wish: The U.S. will come up with an alternative energy source and share it with the rest of the world. Then we can stop forcing our oil dollars on you and the Islamic world can go back to the Middle Age marginalization of existence it specializes in (oppression, killing women who have the gall to be raped, murdering your brothers, et al.)

You talk about how badly you are oppressed and you think we are doing it. Laughable. Where do you think all that oil money is going, Israel? It's right there in your own countries controlled by people who have 50 Rolls-Royces and 10 palaces! Do you think the Iranian Imams want for anything?

Nowan, #23,

You live in the United States; YOU ARE LIVING THE GOOD LIFE. You're also engaging in moral relativism which is not rationally justifiable. There is a right and there is wrong:

"...liberals characteristically renounce moral absolutes in favor of moral grayness. They insist, for example, ...that America is morally equivalent to its enemies, with our own policies having provoked the Sept. 11 attacks and our "unilateralist" actions in Iraq being no different from any forcible occupation of one nation by another.

...the absurdities of the left stem precisely from its irrationality--its pervasive emotionalism, its insistence on doing whatever "feels right," its contention that there are no fixed truths, its credo that morality is anything one wishes it to be. The left maintains that no objective principles exist to validate moral judgments. From its multicultural equalization of all societies--savage or civilized--to its belief in an indefinable, "evolving" Constitution, the left rejects the logic of objective standards and enshrines the arbitrariness of subjectivism.

...The real alternative to the leftist claptrap is a morality of reason. Such a morality begins with the individual's life as the primary value and identifies the further values that are demonstrably required to sustain that life. It observes that man's nature demands that we live not by random urges or by animal instincts, but by the faculty that distinguishes us from animals and on which our existence fundamentally depends: rationality.

With reason as its cardinal value, this code of individualism espouses fixed principles and categorical moral judgments.

...Since life requires man to produce what he needs, productiveness is a moral value--thereby making moral opposites out of the industrious worker and the parasitic welfare recipient. Since life requires man to use his own judgment rather than submissively accept the assertions of others, independence is a moral value--making moral opposites out of the person (or nation) acting on his own rational convictions and the one deferring to the consensus of his neighbors (or the U.N.). Since life requires the mind, man's political system must allow him to use it, i.e., freedom is a moral value--making moral opposites out of America, the defender of liberty, and America’s enemies, who seek liberty's destruction." -Peter Schwartz, The Ayn Rand Institute. (Content edited for applicability to this discussion.)

Uh, the Ayn Rand Institute believes that selfishness is a virtue. I'm not sure they're qualified to give anybody else advice about morality.

Tj,
I think you misinterpreted Nowan. Or you're incredibly nieve (sp). 18 year old Marines are incredible, intelligent resourceful warriors. Recon was some of my favorite people to work with. Your average Marine, though, is incredibly convinced about how invincible he is, this is characteristic of young males, but absolutely stoked by senior NCOs and the entire Marine Corps ethos., A very neccesary kind of brainwashing. But if you believe the terrs are any less tough or resourceful, than I'm glad I didn't make any of my deployments while working for you. We manipulate, you and I, and UBL, young men every day that go against survival instincts. That doesn't make us morally equivalent to UBL. It does mean we have to not hide behind a war cry during intelligent conversation and acknowledge that war is a dirty business and we're fighting one as hard as we can.

Bob,
Ok valid enough point. Lets be clear though that we're talking two completely different degrees of manipulation here. Based off the article/interview you can't disagree. I agree ethos is a good way of describing it from our end. Where I'm confused is where you contend that I somehow don't respect the resourcefulness or will of the enemy we're fighting. Correct, it would be naive if I didn't have but the utmost respect for their capabilities. Because I did as did the Marines I led, we all came home alive (without compromising mission). sf

Treelizard, #36,

Don't be so quick to jump on selfishness. The selfishness Rand spoke of does not prohibit acts of kindness, generosity, tolerance, etc. In fact, it could be argued that selfishness precedes altruism. Example: few could argue that Mother Theresa was not altruistic. But why was she so? Because she believed her actions were right. Rand would argue that Mother Theresa actions were selfish and motivated by her desire to live her life as she saw fit; serving the Lord and her fellow man. Rand would be right.

I can be tolerant to other viewpoints and still be selfish. I choose to advocate free speech even when it disagrees with what I believe not because I'm such a swell guy (which I am), but because I believe it is best.

Additionally, it appears that you are trying to argue that one point a person has is invalid because another point they have is invalid. This sort of logical fallacy is "argumentum ad hominem".

i have to agree with treelizard, selfishness is not a virtue

Even in the face of logic, mfbunch?

And what of the argument at hand?

Strong pics.

John 36,

I'm familiar with Ayn Rand and her definition of
selfishness. I still don't agree with her. "Kindness" out of selfishness or ego is not kindness. Intent is important. Rand may argue that Mother Theresa was selfish, but Rand would be wrong.

I did not say your point was invalid, just that people who praise the virtue of selfishness are unqualified to speak on morality.

I believe that your quotation is an example of argumentum ad verecundiam, unless you can point out that the Rand institute has expertise in the area of morality. This is, of course, debatable.

Rand was, as a friend pointed out, a very politically savvy anti-statist and a great artist, but an inexperienced and amateur philosopher.

I'm not qute sure that Ayn Rand's core philosophy, as, bluntly expressed in "We the Living" and more elegantly portrayed in "Atlas Shrugged", is best applied as part of the discussion of today's article (although the article from someone who happens to be in residence at the Rand Institute seems to flow with the thread). But a discussion of Randian individual primacy and a society based on a meritocracy vs. Marxian "from those of greatest ability and means to those of greatest need"...hohoho...now THAT would be some discussion.

What say ye, Coach?

P.S. Before somebody points out the many logical fallacies I used in #44, here's my real argument re: selfishness.

There's a difference in making a decision based on what you conclude will benefit YOU the most, and what you conclude will benefit OTHERS the most, and from where I stand it seems obvious that making a decision that benefits others is selfless, even if the other person's well-being may give you some comfort (if you're still alive for the outcome.)

The dictionary defines selflessness as having no concern for self and selfishness is defined as being concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself: seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others, or arising from concern with one's own welfare or advantage in disregard of others. There's a difference between concern for self and concern for others.

It is possible to act with concern for the advantage and well-being of others and with concern for one's advantage and well-being, but it is also possible to act with concern for the advantage and well-being of others and WITHOUT concern for one's advantage and well-being. Furthermore, it is possible to act with MORE concern for the advantage and well-being of others than with concern for one's advantage and well-being. Therefore, not every possible action is in one's self-interest, as Rand would argue.

What about people who do the right thing even when the reactions are negative? What about people who don't even believe in an afterlife putting themselves in the line of fire to help people who they've never even met and who likely will not even appreciate it? You'd be hardpressed to argue that they are doing this for their own sense of self-worth, or whatever selfish reasons they could have for doing this. It's an insult to anybody who sacrifices anything, be it Mother Theresa or our soldiers, to say they are doing it out of selfishness.

GTT,
You said:

"...we couldnt give a damm aboout your so called `civilsation`- the adultery , the affairs , the drugs , the alcoholism , the gay lifestyles, the crime , the peadophilia, the divorce rates , your obesity epidemic, - just look at your pathetic shows like Jerry springer and one realises that america is a decadent society destroyng itself- muslims do not aspire to that trash..."

When I was in the Middle East, the number one bargaining chips (next to US Currency) were pornography magazines. Opium was the number one cash crop in Afghanistan. Most Afghan men preferred having sexual intercourse with those of the same gender. I was offered alcohol more that a hundred times while manning check points.

Then you say that the thought of suicide bombing for sexual frustration is just plain pathetic, as if there is some other, better reason to kill yourself along with as many innocent civilians around you as you can. You are an idiot.

um, what's a common spam trigger? i remember one of my completely (i guess i was wrong) innocent posts disappearing once. not arguing against the use of filters, just wondering what words i shouldn't use.

Nicole Carroll-BEAUTIFUL!;)

I suggest we all go to http://www.skittles.com/advertising/index.jsp
and select the "Trade" button. If you don't laugh until you get a nose-bleed, well, then there's something wrong with you.

At least that's what I think. And I think a lot. About a lot of stuff. Really.

I do.

#34 Zac,

Thanks a lot for that link. Well worth a read.

This rest day sucks. Everybody's so polite and well mannered. Nobody wants to spar with me. :(

Oh why, oh why do I get myself involved in this stuff?

Bingo, #45,

I agree that doesn't apply directly to todays topics. It was in response to someone else's post.

Treelizard, #44,

How is a discussion of morality outside the bounds of a philosopher (ad verecundiam)?!!! Lack of agreement on your part isn't the same as lack of qualification. As for Rand, I don't subscribe to all Rand's thinking either (the piece on Moral Relativism is something I agree with) but, your friend's opinion aside, her body of work and her continuing posthumous influence hardly reflect a status of "inexperienced" and "amateur".

Re: post #46, your words in quotes,

"There's a difference in making a decision based on what you conclude will benefit YOU the most, and what you conclude will benefit OTHERS the most."
-No, there MAY be a difference.

"It is possible to act with concern for the advantage and well-being of others and with concern for one's advantage and well-being, but it is also possible to act with concern for the advantage and well-being of others and WITHOUT concern for one's advantage and well-being. Furthermore, it is possible to act with MORE concern for the advantage and well-being of others than with concern for one's advantage and well-being. Therefore, not every possible action is in one's self-interest, as Rand would argue."
-You are confusing self-interest, self-preservation, and selfishness. They MAY be the same in any given situation, they may not. But, more importantly, you continue to ignore the question of motivation. In regards this discussion, that is they key factor. The question isn't "who benefits?", it's "why am I doing this?" Regardless of who benefits, if you are acting based on your belief that it is best, right, most adavantagoues to the most people, etc., you are still acting that way because YOU believe it's the best thing to do. That's selfish; not wrong, selfish. The only truly unselfish act would be the one with which you thought was wrong in any aspect. But who would do that?

I'm most certainly not insulting Mother Theresa or our soldiers. Shame on you for leveling that accusation. If anything, it gives them credit. You're so attached to the negative connotations you've attached to the word 'selfish' that you're unable to view it objectively. Everything you've argued so far is based on the presupposition that selfish = bad, not analytical thought.

It' unfair that I won't view any response, BUT, it's my bedtime and I'm selfish. Bon soir (no Sean Pizel, that does not mean, "I surrender"!)

Treelizard, regarding #52,

You're a poo-poo head. :-) Good night.

Thanks John. I needed that. :)

I think that people who believe selfishness is a virtue should not be speaking on morality.

I also stand by what I said that acting in order to benefit others is selfless, even if the actor believes that acting selflessly is ethically correct. That's interesting that you're saying that acting based on the belief that it is most advantageous to most people is selfish. Does that make Kant selfish? Don't tell the Rand people that, they will freak out.

You may not see it as an insult to imply that soldiers or Mother Theresa are acting selfishly, but I see it that way. Acting purely based on self-interest without concern for others leads directly to the dark side. I think this is a semantic argument though.

Anyways.

Tried to row 2K in 9:50 but I got 10:13 and now my arms are falling off. I didn't get my 70# high pull either. Got my 11" vertical jump and 40 lb military press though. 10 standards to go, tomorrow I'll knock out the running. Three more days on my "off" week... I need to get some sand and my scale and make a medicine ball.

Three rounds:
500 m row 21,15,9
2 pood KB and pull-ups
11:50

Weekly Sunday a.mm. weigh-in
161, 12%
38 1/4
34 3/4

TJ #33

Take the time to read the post. It's not an attack on the Marines. It's an observation on the state of mind of an 18 year old "boy" trying to become a man. Oh, and by the way. I was an enlisted "grunt" and I will speak about the Marines whenever I please. Your not the boss of me anymore!!!! OOH RAH!!!!

Getting these comments back on track, I will be very interested to see Rehov's film "Suicide Killers" when it becomes available. On reading this interview I also thought that maybe he was being too French to think that suicide bombers motives were sexual, but on looking at a trailer of the film at Rehov's website http://www.pierrerehov.com/, I have to think he may be on to something. In an interview with one prospective suicide bomber, the kid himself puts major emphasis on getting those 72 virgins.

Front page news today is the Muslim reaction to Pope Benedict's speech. The overall tone was one seeking common ground, but the Pope made the error of making reference to older, middle ages, attitudes between the Church and Islam. He forgot that whatever can be misinterpreted by Muslims will be misinterpreted, and in response to a perceived allegation that Islam is a religion of violence the devotees of the religion of peace have gone out and shot a nun to death in Somalia and burned two Christian churches in the West Bank, thus proving that the Pope got it wrong when he suggested there was room for both Islam and Christianity in today's world.

So the Pope says that Islam is a religion of evil and violence (I think he was actually quoting someone from long ago; I'm weak on the details) in the context of a speech.
Several Muslims are told of the Pope's comments out of context and begin torching Catholic churches on the West Bank and the Gaza.

Pope apologizes profusely, as he should for making ignorant comments.

A nun is raped in Somalia.

Am I missing something here, GTT? I'm not Catholic, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist. I'm just a human who sees inter-religion conflict and one-upmanship as asinine and a waste of life. My children, born and raised in the US of A will always know that and will see what they chose to see, not what I chose for them.

Go troll somewhere else if you're not going to come in and defend your inflammatory post.

I'm going back to watch Springer and eat my donuts.
(In the US, that's called sarcasm and it's funny as hell)

Kelly's Last Hawaiian WOD
15-40# sandbag cross-body snatch to rt shoulder
15 meter underwater swim/1 pool-edge muscleup/15 meter underwater swim (hereinafter referred to as swim/mu/swim)
15-40# sandbag x-body sn to lt shoulder
swim/mu/swim
15-40# sandbag sq, rt shoulder
swim/mu/swim
15-40# sandbag sq, lt shoulder
swim/mu/swim
15 sandbag lunge, rt shoulder
swim/mu/swim
15 sandbag lunge, lt shoulder
swim/mu/swim
15 archer pushup, rt extended
swim/mu/swim
15 archer pushup, lt extended
swim/mu/swim
12:57

Gotta agree with Tj, #33. I spent 6 years as a Marine "grunt", from 18 to 24, and I was never brainwashed or manipulated. I made a logical, informed decision to join up because I wanted to be a Marine, and I wanted to serve. Semper Fi, and Get some, Tj.

Firesmac #62

I never used the term "brainwashed". HMMM!!!

This link, and these pictures, deserve to be widely known. They are of a museum--I don't know if it's still open--dedicated to a suicide bomber who blew up a Sbarro's pizza in Israel:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=4523

This link looks good, too, although I haven't fully explored it:

http://dailyscorecard.blogspot.com/2006/04/art-exhibit-not-culturally-appropriate.html

I'm not going to have time to say all I have to say, but for now I'm going to point out that in some respect we are dealing with a death cult. Also, I am in full agreement on the sex thing. I've been saying that for some time. It's just plain impossible to get laid if you're an Arab teenager, and difficult to get married if you don't have money. Remember the rich men get 4 or so wives. Figuring 50/50 split, that means 3 men with NO wives, and no prospect of getting married or laid. What's the phrase, young, dumb, and full of . . .?

Got a spare minute. Long day, but that's what beer is for.

I've run the risk of appearing nuts or a fool before, and I'm going to do it again, and relate a couple of dreams I've had. I sometimes have dreams that are so clear and vivid that I really believe they are messages from somewhere. Some of you will buy that, some of you won't. Those of you who know what I'm talking about, perhaps this is a bit of a validation.

On the night of Sept. 10th, 2001, I had a dream of a large man--a giant--composed purely of evil. He was a pig farmer, and he was slaughtering hundreds and hundreds of pigs. Blood was everywhere, and he was happy. I was on a sales call when we both realized everyone in the office was gathered around a TV. We went and looked, and saw the first footage. I was doing a presentation at another firm when the news came that the towers had collapsed. We continued, because none of us really wanted to know. That's my story.

Think this through. The imagery of swine occurs constantly in the Koran. It's all over the place. Jews are often compared to monkeys and pigs. One of the things we've learned about a lot of these Al Queda people is they love snuff films. They watch footage from Chechnya or the Balkans of Muslims killing infidels. I'm sure many of them watch the beheadings that have been shown--the snuff films--over and over.

You know what? To those people, we--infidels--are swine, and deserve to die. When they kill us, it is no different than slaughering a pig, which screams in fear the whole time. It makes them happy.

Another dream from the other day. I was on patrol in the Army in Iraq. We took care of whatever we had to take care of, and realized a squad was missing. We went to go look for them, and on the way I saw a picture of some guys killed in action. One of them was a picture of Richie Cunningham, who had a beard like most of the guys who go out for weeks or months or whatever it is, at a time. He was dead.

We got to this group of rectangular grass huts on a beach on the edge of the ocean. Many of them, right next to each other. It was very peaceful, with a light breeze. We quickly got separated, though, and the mood changed. We realized something terrible had happened to the squad, and we had walked into a trap. I found a small group huddled in a corner, saying "you have no idea", then what I can only describe as a mist of death filled the air, and people came out dancing with blood on them, and everyone started losing their minds. Someone sprayed a hallucinatory mist in the air, and I got out, but most everyone else succumbed to an opiate-like intoxication.

Now, before anyone says anything, as far as I can tell, my reality testing is quite good, and although I have my troubles like everyone else, I think I'm a pretty balanced person.

My interpretation of this is that we are dealing with masses of people who literally get drunk on death. It excites them. Think of the masses of people dancing in the streets after 9/11, or the shrine with body parts in it. There is death in the air in Iraq and Afghanistan. It's something almost tangible at some times and places, and it seems likely that our own men can fall victim to that hallucinatory fog on occasion. Richie Cunningham is dead.

Now, my one vice is I like to drink to excess on occasion. I've greatly mitigated it in the last year, but I used to have hangovers on occasion. One remedy that seemed to cut through the fog well was pickle juice. It's a Russian thing. It works, at least for a time.

What would be the pickle juice to the fog of death frenzy? In my view, consistently applied, abstract principles, such as justice, and personal responsibility. The rights of women.

Islam is not universally blood-thirsty. I read a very good letter in the Wall Street Journal the other day pointing to the fact that the "umma" is hardly monolithic, and that there are in fact moderate elements that would likely be congenial to a program of political and economic liberalization, that are being pushed aside and, effectively, purged, by radical Wahabist or Al Queda elements. That need not be the case.

We need to stay on message, and follow consistently what I think we could call the logic of our OWN Revolution, which in its' balance of pragmatism and idealism is--to my knowledge--unparalleled in history.

It seems to me that we can do more to win our wars. However, it is going to be difficult to muster the political support to try HARDER, not less, until people awaken to the reality of the evil that is attempting to stalk us. It is going to be harder until people realize that every step backward on our part brings our enemy one step closer. That weakness on our part will lead to more death, not less.

Everyone should read "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" up until Hitler ascends to Chancellor. His brownshirts created such chaos in the streets that it appeared only he could bring peace again. And he did bring peace, of a sort, for a while.

I don't see Iraq as any different. The goal is chaos, so that the people creating the chaos can come to power and stop that type of violence, and substitute political repression for it, which of course is qualitatively worse.

Here's another link on the Sbarro thing:

http://www.adl.org/israel/israel_sbarro.asp

Barry, I was watching an interview with Jill Carroll who was talking about how excited her kidnappers were when her driver got killed. She said they were ecstatic, screaming "JIHAD!! JIHAD!!" like they'd just won the lottery.

In the video Obsession: What the War on Terror is Really About...there was a little girl they interviewed, maybe about six years old, who was saying the same things you posted about swine. It was really hard to watch. And elementary school students reciting poetry about becoming suicide bombers as if they were doing it. It just made me sick to my stomach, I almost threw up after watching that video.

I'll keep looking into the sexual repression indicator-- I found this article but haven't looked at it too closely.
http://www.islamreview.com/articles/sexinislam.shtml

Here's another one I found, farting around. Hyperbolic, a bit, but not entirely:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-harris18sep18,0,1897169.story

BTW, this here is a great fount of articles. They tend to be humanist/liberal, but a lot of them are entertaining: http://www.aldaily.com/

Gotta be honest Barry, you sound a little crazy.

http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/

Every genreation and civilization thinks they are the pinnacle of evolution, that is why the odds are that they will make the same mistakes over and over again, thinking they are different, the roman legions went to war for noble causes, the British to liberate the savages, the Isrealis protect the Palestinians by building an illegal wall, I could go on.

Sadly we are likley in the twilight of our empire days, and in the process people drift towards racial/cultural/political safehavens and myths to give it all meaning.

In the search for meaning they seek the good fight, they actually begin to need the good fight, seldom do they turn the lens inwards as a starting point, better to self-proclaim special status and thus they can mount the pedestal from which to survey the world and allocate labels without an understanding of culture.

Explain this one--they were married.

http://www.forbes.com/entrepreneurs/feeds/ap/2006/09/21/ap3036548.html