March 5, 2006
Dr. Wafa Sultan
Post thoughts to comments.
Posted by lauren at March 5, 2006 7:42 PM
Kyaking here I come.................yeah baby!!!
You are free to believe in stones as long as you don't throw them at me.
Precisely why separation of church and state must me maintained in this nation. Radical Muslims don't have any monopoly on misogynistic policies and practices. You see these behaviors in many stripes of religions.
I gave up Catholicism for Lent one year- haven't touched it since!
1000 double unders for time:
I watched the video. I thought I was watching tryouts for the opening speaker at the democratic national convent!
I would've liked to have seen the unedited video. For me, at least, seeing someone tell me what I already believe is not very interesting, even if it's well said. I might have found it more convincing if I had gotten to see more of what her interlocutors were saying.
Let's hope Dr. Sultan has taken out adequate life insurance.
When you can't counter an argument on its merits, just call your foe a heretic. It reminds me of what goes on in American courtrooms everyday. When the defense can't win on evidence, they just attack the cops and prosecution. My hat's off to Dr. Sultan for speaking out when it could cost her her life.
By far some of the most intresting things I have heard about the Muslim religion. The comments about the Jews were a great point. I would have to say she was right on with her comments about respect and how it is earned not taken or forced.
Good on Doctor Sultan. Stand by for fatwa...
Given the state of affairs, I find myself awed by her personal courage. Kudos, also, to Al Jazeera for giving her a platform for her message to be heard by millions of her fellow country-folk.
Jamila, Comment #4,
I think "misogynistic" might be overstating it a bit (all those statues of the blessed Mother kind of sink that ship). Can we agree on pathetic, short-sighted, and sad? So who exactly is it here in the U.S. that's trying to establish a state religion? Some food for thought to bring this back around: One of my heroes is my late aunt, a Sister of Saint Joseph. She was never able to come to terms with not being able to be a priest but she never stopped fighting. However, she fought from inside the church; and she fought while loving and serving. The battle of which Dr. Sultan speaks will never be won until mainstream Muslims step-up and take their religion back. The extremist in the video came right out and said there can be no dialogue with a "heretic". Short of trying to kill every radical Muslim in the world, what else is left?
I delight in bashing Democrats as much as the next reactionary, conservative, Republican -sshole, but I gotta say "Huh?"
I am (as many know) an unabashed Liberal. and I agree with most everything this woman says.
“I am a secular human being. I do not believe in the supernatural.”
The True Believers on both sides will be the death of us all. The religious right--whereever it lurks --is the death of reason.
A super movie. Very well said.
Have an open mind to ALL subjects of ALL people.
may theybe christian, muslim, jew, buddhist, heretic?,republican, you name it.
Happy healthy mind training
Religion is for the weak minded? While I will agree that sometimes the weak-minded take refuge there.(e.g. "God will make everything all better...") A blanket statement like that just isn't right. I know God exists, and I find myself to be a very rational, logical, strong-minded person. I understand that God helps those who help themselves. But I don't think he has a direct hand in things.
I am a bit overweight, I have to workout. I have a paper due on Tue., I better get crackin'. I am single right now, I'd better try taking a shower. God doesn't just hand out diet pills, feasibility studies, cologne, or even Oscars.
I don't think that the true believers are the problem. The closed-minded and the knee-jerk reactionaries, be they religiously minded or political...there is your "death of reason."
Aww man...Didn't mean to write this much, umm, actually all I wanted to say was that I liked what Dr. Sultan had to say, and thank God for a rest day, I hit a wall yesterday with those pull-ups and dips.
Dr. Sultan is indeed a brave woman.
The Renaissance or "Enlightenment" in Europe did not occur until the idea of freedom of religion began to take hold, and in it's early evolution freedom of religion was limited to various forms of Christianity tolerating each other. These advances were accompanied by bloody struggles and the burning of heretics at the stake, etc. and all the hallmarks of religious intolerance that we associate with the era called the "Dark Ages" We need to remember that we are not all that far removed from those times.
Islam, younger than Christianity by 700 years, so far as I can tell, is now undergoing this same struggle, and it may be expected to continue for a long time. They are wrestling with the ideas of freedom of religion and its partner, separation of church and state. But a major problem exists within Islam that does not exist in Christianity or Judaism, which is that, as the Dr. Sultan points out, Islam's holy book, the Koran, unambiguously directs the faithful to spread the faith by violence. How they are going to get past that and maintain their faith in the Koran as the revelation of God's will is beyond my understanding.
Hate to break up the politico-religious speak, coach, but wanted to know if there were any workout supplements or drinks you recommended. Or that any of you recommend. 39 yoa, 6 foot 4, 207 pounds, ex tennis player, injured shoulders from too much military press 10 years ago and want more muscle.
Brave woman for speaking out.
I disagree that religion is for the weak minded. Although I'm not religious and attend no church, I believe that belief in God takes strength. It is difficult to believe in something that you can't prove and that lots of "secular, progressive" smart guys spend all their time ridiculing and mocking.
I do believe in God and find a lot of strength in it. I don't care if someone else dosen't or has a good laugh in the faculty lounge about the fact that I do. What I do care about is when someone wants to stop me from believing or not believing in what I want.
We all know that the utopians believe the first step to a secular paradise is wiping out all religion and belief in God. It is interesting to note how this has worked out for Europe. I really don't think we want to go down that path.
Islam, like all religions, has to choose a path. It's not defamation to suggest that the folks that buy into the Wahabbi and UBL version of Islam have got to go.
I agree that all religions have their share of nuts. Just can't remember the last time I saw a bunch of crazed Baptists saw the heads off a couple schoolgirls and throw the corpses in the street. More importantly, can't remember seeing anyone but Muslims celebrating when this kind of stuff happens.
Thanks CF for a great site.
the fact that dr. sultan had the courage to do that is awe inspiring...that she was called a heretic for it, disheartening, but not surprising...will she make a difference? that is not for me to say. the koran is similar to the old testament. retribution, eye for an eye, call it what you will it is religious violence. live our way or die. however, christianity has a new testament. one that is akin to buddhism, and the jews that dr. sultan refers to. let others see the way you live and desire to emulate your actions. do not spread your word through violence. until such a revolution, if you will, is seen in islam...this turmoil will never end.
andy platt #24
I recommend the Zone diet. It has worked for many people here. You can buy the book "Enter The Zone" or just buy back issue 21 of the CrossFit Journal. You can also read through the nutrition section of the message board to get more evidence for the diet.
Supplements (other than fish oil) don't work. Proper nutrition works so well it is almost scary.
Shameful is the fact that here in America we see nothing of this from the middle east. Only the fact that we Americans are the root of all evil.
Religion is not the belief in God. It is how you practice your belief. Many of the tradtions and rituals are man made and governed. The interpretions of man has led to religion. God is above that. Funny how The three largest religions in the world all beleive in the same God, yet there are so many religions to honor and worship. Religion is always a hot topic, but if people engage in a discussion of God minus their separate religous intonations we would find more common ground than not. Far more men that have shaped nations, movements and spread peace throughout the world believed in a higher power, this did not make them weak-minded, it solidified a basis for these individuals.
#23- "There is no compulsion in religion"
#25 UBL and Wahabbism do not define Islam.
And re: "I agree that all religions have their share of nuts. Just can't remember the last time I saw a bunch of crazed Baptists saw the heads off a couple schoolgirls and throw the corpses in the street. More importantly, can't remember seeing anyone but Muslims celebrating when this kind of stuff happens." Try this:
from the Atlanta Journal 1920
The execution of the negro was witnessed by hundreds of persons and many thousands who were in the crowdliterally fought to get close enough to see the actual details. Almost every person who had a firearm, and it seemed that everyone carried a gun or pistol, emptied the weapon into the man's prostrate body. He was not shot until he had been mutilated (that is stabbed and treated to further surgical punishment below the belt) and saturated with gasoline and a match touched. The infuriated mob could hold itself in check no longer. One shot was fired from a revolverand it was signal for a thousand shots which made mincemeat of the body. Four young women from the crowd pushed their way through the outer rim of the circle and emptied rifles into the negro. They stood by while other men cut off fingers, toes, and other parts of the bodies and passed them around as souvenirs."
1920? Like I said, I can't remember the last time I saw this. Before you quote me something more recent, let me say I full acknowledge the US has a long history of violence, alot of it against it's own people. Point is, in 2006, I don't see US citizens dance in the street when someone ritually murders school children.
Every society engages in violence. What speaks to me is how the general population reacts to it, or in some places, celebrates it.
The story from the Atlanta Journal 1920 is horrific and it certainly proves that people purporting to be Christians are capable of unspeakable brutality, a point not really in dispute by anyone here, but the distinction between that and say, the beheading of Daniel Pearl, is that in 1920 Christians in Europe, South America, and the the rest of North America and the world did not dance in the street to celebrate the lynching and mutilation described in the article. In fact the reason that story was printed in the Atlanta Journal was to expose this horror to the nation and the world, which reacted with revulsion, not celebration in the streets.
That, I think, was rpo's point, and it remains a valid one.
I have to agree with Dan MacD #20, when he states, "Islam's holy book, the Koran, unambiguously directs the faithful to spread the faith by violence. How they are going to get past that and maintain their faith in the Koran as the revelation of God's will is beyond my understanding."
In Islam there is a thing known as the Law of Abrogation. The law of abrogation basically states that in the Koran statements that come later supercede things that were said earlier.
Here are some of Muhammed's last words:
"Fight and slay the unbelievers wherever you find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war." 9:5
"Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them and heal the spirit of the faithful." 9:14
"Fight those among the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] who do not believe in God and the Last Days, do not forbid what God and His Prophet have forbidden, and do not profess the true religion until they pay the poll tax (jizya) out of hand and feel themselves subdued." 9:29
So ran my little 5k today...26:50. First run of the season and first time outside in a while. I forgot how much different running outside is, plus 2 big hills killed my time (that and the frigid winds), but had a great time.
Tristram, I still love you even though you don't acknowledge me....GOD!
Tristam, For your penance, do 1000 Burpees!...Father McMahon
Neal, Dan and Coop...I knew I liked you guys!
Neal, don't be ashamed to add even further that Sura (book) 9 of the Koran goes in great detail as to how to deal with non-believers (non-muslims). It's sick and grissly but shows Islams true colors and too much to briefly mention here.
Funny how from reading the Koran, God really hates the Jews and Gentiles. But in the Bible he realy loves them, even when he admonishes them....hmmmmm which Book in your opinion has it right?
My choice anyday is the Bible. Tristam, you are correct! This is an exercise forum. The corellary between Exercise and Faith, not religion, is unbeleivably similar.
"Religion is reaching God on man's terms; Faith is accepting God on his terms. "
Like Jesus said to the Jews of his era, "You've made VOID the word of God from your traditions of Men."
Most exercisers who come here carry tons of traditional prior exercise baggage, searchin for their exercise truth. The exercises presented here (in my humble opinion) are so simplistic and truthful yet difficult to perform and follow.
Kinda like belief in God. Easy to say, difficult to do.
Lauren, you're brave to post this. But the women who challenges the Muslim Cleric is even more brave.
Just a rant from a "God Fearing Exerciser"
5 mile run with 40# ruck (about 60 mins).
Watched the video for mind exercise. Brave woman.
Change comes from true power...and true power does not have roots in force. Force only brings up opposite force in resistance. Power is overwhelming and accepting. Throwing a rock in the air is force..but gravity is power...which one wins in the end.
Understanding, compassion and acceptance is the path to true power. I fear any ideals or religion that do not have these at the root of their beliefs...as they are based on force.
Well said by the Dr, too bad she will be drowned out by loud mouthed media calling her crazy and a heretic.
Tristam, I am not a religious person either, but if you were watch in the aftermath of Katrina or any large dissaster the world over...IT IS THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT, that gets in the middle of it and brings aid and relief to those in need...I have never seen any atheist organization do much for our society except bring lawsuits at taxpayer expense. Just because they believe different than you does not make thier "reason" flawed or dead. I am not sure when Isamo-facists became part of the religious right, since by definition fascists are on the left with group mentality and restrictions of life, liberty, pursuit of happiness and private property. In recent world events the garbage that roles out of both the Islamo-fascists and the world's far left sound remarkably similar and sympathetic to each others agendas. Thugs in streets protesting and destroying property.
Interesting video, I'd definiely like to see the unedited version. Its interesting to see these types of points raised on Al Jezera (sp)...not sure they'd be raised on our media stations.
She said that Jews didn't blow themselves up or commit violence for their religion...may be taking it a step outside, but what about the jewish terrorism in the early days of Israel?
Re: Tedw's question
Religious voices raised in support of 20th century Zionism could link this tradition to their own militancy. Hence Avram Kook, the first Ashkenazy Chief Rabbi of mandate Palestine (in Walter Wurzburger’s words)
permitted individuals to volunteer for suicide missions when carried out in the interest of the collective Jewish community. In other words, an act that would be illicit if performed to help individuals, would be legitimate if intended for the benefit of the community.
There is a huge difference between Religion and Spirituality. Religion is an organization with...Spirituality is the daily practice of one's belief whatever they may be. Religion is not taking responsibility for your actions believing that someone will forgive you, Spirituality is giving that forgiveness to others through your actions. Religions compete with eachother for supremecy, Spirituality seeks acceptance for all human beings as we are all the same...that is until religion seperates us.
The idea of religion is good, but because religion itself is an organization it is therefore susceptible to wayward ideas and corruption...we all have the answers inside of us, we just need to stop and listen sometimes for them.
I am Cstholic and see how screwed up I ended up? Ha.
It definitely would be interesting to see the unedited version, though I suspect what it contains is a great deal Mr. Funny Hat screaming at the doc and interrupting her.
I can't disagree with anything she's saying in that clip. Though I suspect that she (the doc) was raised in a very Western culture (does anyone know anything more about her?) and as such she and I would tend to natually share a lot of perspectives and beliefs re: the superiority (yup...I said it) of Westernized thought/culture.
Regardless...a very brave woman. I hope she's got a phalanx of very good bodyguards and a bulletproof vest. She'll likely need it.
Back in the late 80s/early 90s, Dennis Miller did a comedy bit about how to wipe out the ayatollahs...just strap 'em down in a chair and force them to watch the Solid Gold dancers (all the spandex) for awhile. I suspect that the same end result could be achieved by making them watch/listen to Dr. Sultan. An intelligent and well-spoken woman? Isn't that an affront to Islam?
Powerful and thought provoking. She should get the Nobel Prize just for her courage. Rest day for the body, but you are always working the mind. Thanks.
brandt, terrorism is terrorism...
The time period you mention: "terrorism in the early days of Israel" actually refers to the "late days of the British Mandate". The "terrorism" you most probably are referring to was carried out by the pre-state Irgun (one of several underground Jewish defense forces)in response to British troops invading the Jewish Agency on June 29, 1946, confiscating large quantities of documents.
The King David Hotel was the site of the British military command and the British Criminal Investigation Division; Irgun leader Menachem Begin stressed his desire to avoid civilian casualties and placed three telephone calls: one to the hotel, another to the French Consulate, and a third to the Palestine Post, warning that explosives in the King David Hotel would soon be detonated. When the warnings were ignored by the British command, who also refused to evacuate the hotel, claiming they "didn't take orders from the Jews" the bomb was detonated.
I wonder how many phone calls the USS Cole, the embassy in Beirut, or other numerous (and often civilian) targets received prior to the actions of radical Islamic terrorists.
brandt, (comment #37),
seeing as how that quote came directly (copied and pasted) fromn a website called "The American Muslim" I fail to see how it can be given any real credence.
Brandt, Comment 27
Are you referring to the article entitled "Mob Riddles Negro Murderer" or the one entitled "Minnesota Mob Lynches Negroes"? Neither was based on religion. Both were the result of frustrations with the legal system as expressed, to a lesser extent, by Daniel Andrews in Comment 10. Both demonstrate the result of mob rule over legal process.
We keep talking about Muslims this and Muslim that. We all agree with the right to practice faith, but we all object to cutting off heads and setting fires in the name of God. It doesn't much matter whether it is an IRA bomb (Catholic), a Protestant riot, an Budhist setting himself on fire in Saigon, the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem (Jewish), or flying airplanes into the Twin Towers.
rpo (#22) and Dan MacD (#29) -- I can't speak of any recent Baptist killings that were celebrated in the streets, but I do have two counter-points to the notion that only Muslims celebrate the deaths of non-practitioners of their religion:
1) Think of all the bloodshed between Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland as recently as 10 years ago -- you may not have seen thousands of cheering folks in the streets celebrating the deaths of innocent market-goers, but you can bet that there were partisans celebrating in plenty, both among the Catholic IRA and the Protestant Orange Order (et al).
2) The example given by brandt (#27) actually points out that this was a large group of ordinary citizens not only celebrating the death of a black man (who was almost certainly also Christian), but actively partaking in his mutilation and death. While this death was presumably not celebrated in the streets of Atlanta (the clip is silent on this), I think one would be a fool to assert that there were not thousands of Christian Americans who thought that he got what was coming to him.
One counterpoint also to Dr. Sultan's categorical assertion that Jews do not kill innocent civilians by acts of terror. Remember that in Hebron in 1994, Baruch Goldstein (originally from Brooklyn) opened fire on Arabs praying at the Tomb of the Patriarchs, killing 29.
Now, this point is not meant to create some moral equivalence between Jews as a group and Muslims as a group (or Christians, for that matter) -- comparing groups as a general rule is foolish. It's simply to make the point that human beings of many religions commit acts of violence against other religions or other sects within their own religion. I think we really do ourselves a disservice by viewing Muslims or the Koran as the primary problem -- there are plenty of places in the Bible that advocate/justify killing unbelievers or dashing the heads of their children upon the ground.
We have many enemies among the Muslims, but then we have enemies all around the world. Rather than state that the Koran is the problem, thus absolving ourselves of any responsibility for the creation of Muslim anger, we should instead examine what we are doing that radicalizes moderate Muslims, and do what we can to encourage their growth and strength as a force in their countries.
For some reading on why it's not so hard for radical Islamo-Fascists to recruit new followers, read "Through Our Enemies' Eyes" or "Imperial Hubris" by Michael Scheuer. You can take or leave his criticism of Bush administration policy in the latter book, but his excellent take on our relationship with the Islamic world (coming from an ex-CIA analyst who believes in taking it to our enemies) can really open one's eyes. Another good source is Bernard Lewis' Atlantic Monthly article called "The Roots of Muslim Rage" (Sep. 1990).
Good lord...I've soapboxed too long. I guess I've contributed my $20 worth.
Thanks to CrossFit for encouraging the discussion in the first place (not to mention all the awesome fitness advice). What an excellent community and website. Keep it up!
Gotta disagree with you slightly Walt (#45). Frankly, if the Buddhists...or anyone else...want to set themselves and only themselves on fire, well that's their business.
I just have a problem when "killing myself" becomes "killing myself and everyone within range".
I should add, btw, that when I say "we should..." in paragraph 6 of my rant above, I mean "in addition to defending ourselves rigorously and taking the fight to the enemy." I don't see them as mutually exclusive policies.
Jack-I totally agree with you that
a)there have been many many evil acts perpretated by fools and madmen, and
b)that you can't morally equate religious groups and their actions, but two points are very clear:
1. Baruch Goldstein definitely belonging to the latter group of madmen
2. the overwhelming outrage and universal condemnation of this horrific act by the Israeli public at large, and the Jewish population the world round stands in stark contrast to the mob mentality we see today by practitioners of radical Islam.
Ride (Airdyne; 3 miles) 7:50.
Lisa is doing her ride as I type...
the Law of Abrogation does not stand alone. It does not defy over 1400 years of traditional Muslim scholarship. The Imams of Fiqh, as well as other hafiz of hadith, had over 100,000 hadith complete with their chains of transmission on which to base their ijtihad. You do not understand Islam, nor the Quran, nor the Sunnah.
as for rioting and dancing in the streets, and destruction, in America sadly these days you are more likely to see this in relation to sports teams winning or losing than over injustice.
Matt G., with the utmost respect, your closing words insults millions of muslim women, who are intelligent and well-spoken, and educated.
Finally, "was there ever any domination which did not appear natural to those who possessed it?" -John Stuart Mill
The primary thing that makes America the Great Satan in Muslims' eyes is US support of Israel as a legitimate nation both fiscally and militarily, frustrating their desire to drive Israel into the sea. They have said so more times than can be counted. I do not say that to justify setting a bomb in a hotel in response to the seizure of documents. But all of Islam is dedicated to the total destruction of Israel.
The Bible does not prescribe the spread of either Judaism or Christianity by force. The Koran unequivically does and from the Middle Ages to today that is exactly what is happening.
brandt (#51)...get a clue pal. MY words "insult" those women? Yeah right...much more so than the plans/desires of Islamic leaders who'd love nothing more than to relegate women to second-class citizenship.
I was being facetious...the Taliban and their ilk are not.
Matt G(39), way to pump the irony. But your manners are terrible, for creating the possibility that others embarrass themselves by not perceiving it...
Dr. Sultan doesn't write America without an 'e', that's good enough for me.
More validation to her point, in Chapel Hill, a Muslim man drove his car into a group of people on the side walk on the UNC campus the other day becasue he was upset at how Muslims were treated in America. I don't think he helped his case at all.
Very well said #32 Matt Hunt.
Brave woman indeed!
I agree with Daniel Andrews #10
...I wonder what Bill O'Reily would think of that interview...I wonder if he would like to interview the good Dr. Sultan...
Where in the artical posted by BRANDT does it have any religious conotation...except assumed. Nowhere as posted is anything of a religious nature even mentioned. So what gives with the comparisson? Some misguided towns people terrorized a man. How on earth does that even remotely compare to a movement which looks to subjigate national soverinties through violance, as well as immigration coupled with political correct retoric to acheive world domination by counting on the weak wills of world leftists who think America is the "real" enemy. Useful Idiots.
i had not heard that. that's horrible especially considering the great pains the university went to trying to give the students more understanding of the muslim religion.
#32 matt hunt-i couldn't have said it better myself.
-a southern baptist from north carolina and proud of it
With all due respect, your paranoia is itself the strongest deterrent to reason.
IanTelAviv - terrorism is terrorism...maybe we should define the term?
Excellent link, excellent points made by Dr. Sultan. She is right, it is a battle of two opposed cultures - one built on terror, control, dictatorship vs. one built on safety, freedom, and democracy. One culture puts the rights of the warlord above all else, the other culture puts the rights of the individual above all.
"You can believe in stones, just don't throw them at me." - good line.
Victor Davis Hanson has also written articles on this battle of culture - two systems that are antithetical.
I am doing my very best to avoid internet arguments. Towards that end, I gave up for Lent my favorite arguing website.
However, I did want to say two things, that in my own mind I don't consider argumentative. One, we have a large number of troups literally fighting to create a viable Islamic democracy. While I agree with what Dr. Sultan said, we still need to be careful, on balance, to emphasize our commonalities with Islam. Sting's politics likely differ considerably from my own, but I heard, for the first time in a while, his song "I hope the Russians love their children, too", and while I don't think we should let a foolish optimism as to the benign motives of others blind us (I'm reading a history of Nazi Germany, and just completed the section on Hitler's bloodless reoccupation of the Rhineland, which should have been his last mistake), at the same time, we need to look for valid opportunities for peace.
Specifically, the political liberalization of the Middle East--if it can be achieved, this is Bush's great gamble--will undoubtedly bring common sense into play, Koranic ideals notwithstanding. In the Middle East, ordinary people lack political freedom, business opportunities, and valid reasons to think things will ever change. We are in large measure the Great Satan, because the authoritarian leaders there need us roughly the same way Hitler needed the Jews. This is not our fault, but it IS our problem. This is a difficult situation, and there are no quick, easy answers. In large measure, I think our strategy needs to be maintaining our stance, and waiting for internal agents of change--along the lines of a similar thinking, but more political Dr. Sultan--to emerge as prophets of common benefit in varied Islamic nations. We need, as well, to more effectively support dissidents throughout the Middle East, but especially Iran, which is the most likely to come "over to our side", having experienced some degree of freedom, and western ways of living. Lebanon, now that I think about, falls in that category too. All of this will take time. At least 10-15 years. We may be in Iraq that long. It is a gamble that needs to be made, because we don't want to fight the entire Middle East. People are people first, and ideologues second, and religion is an ideology when it lacks spiritual depth.
What is Crossfit's stand on cheese, because I thought I read that it is not part of the zone diet, but i dont understand that because it's high in protein and is delicious
thank-you for the link.
the strict interpretation of ancient "holy" scripture remind me of the classic movie: "Inherit the Wind", about the Scopes trial of 1925.
CNN Headline news is about to run a piece on how the UFC is dangerous, say critics.
Sorry, cage fighting is dangerous, one guy lost and wants to continue doing it, even though he wasn't paid. I can't believe it.
About a week ago I came across a series of webcasts on the site. I can't seem to find that page anymore. Anyone know how to get back to it?
Rest day..run trail 3.5miles, mnt bike 6miles, run 1.5miles. This will come back to haunt me tommorow I have a feeling.
Love these offdays conversations...I do also believe in stones....as I tripped and biked over like 329 of them on the trail today.
If anyone likes human behavior analysis, I recommend "Power vs Force:Study of human behavior" by Dr David Hawkins. Insightful.
But then again this comes from the guy that argues withhimself too.
Love this line "What is Crossfit's stand on cheese"...thats gold for todays topic ;)
The statement....."Religion is reaching God on man's terms; Faith is accepting God on his terms. "...is an odd one. It suggests paradoxically, anyone that excercises faith is on the bat-phone to the big cheeze. Well, can someone tell me how I can get that service on my land-line?
I agree that faith is the construct of the individual as it represents their GOD - subject to life experience, naivete, dependancy, insecurity, commitment, socialisation, coersion, fear (a big USP for literally selling religion and faith as the only alternative to being fried like a chicken wing in hell), etc etc. Faith is like a finger-print.
Religion for me is kind of like an orchestra - with everone playing the same piece of music, but having their own instrument, sound & interpretation. Just that for me the music being played stinks, and there are no good conductors other than nature & love (& CF ;P). Religious and political conductors who insist on using fear to coerce impressionable people to play to an intolerance and viloence based pre-prescribed tune are the problem - the 'finger-print' is standardised and the follower is controlled. I find it frightening when I see images of kids in mosques rocking back & forth chanting because they have to, with someone looking over their shoulder and effectively forcing compliance. Combine that with a culture that embraces the occasional bloodthirsty automatic weapon firing mass frenzy and it's party time. If they were all just slapping fish together or squeezing oranges we would all be fine.
Faith is surely and simply the personalised mechanics of subscribing to a belief of any description: be it Hindu, Bretheren, Catholic, Branch Dividian, Muslim, The Orange People, or CrossFit.
My head hurts...anyone else feel the same way? I need a nap...
Painstorm today in 55 min 12 secs.
With regard to the video, I wouldn't disagree with anything she said. But as others have pointed out, I think it is both surprising and impressive that she was given the platform to say it by al-jazeera. Given the recent prison sentence handed out by the Austrian government to the crank British historian for expressing his (admittedly offensive and ridiculous) views on the Holocaust I think it is a sad indictment of the state of freedom of expression in modern Western society that in this regard we seem to lag behind al-Jazeera.
IanTelAviv (#49) -- your point is well taken. There certainly seems to be a substantive and unflattering difference in the response of many in the Islamic world to violence inflicted in the name of their religion when compared, for example, to the Israeli public. Yet interestingly, there were a great many, even in Teheran, who also mourned publicly for the United States after 9/11. This apparent clash of civilizations leaves few easy choices for the thoughtful.
Here's an interesting quote of President John Tyler that comes from the Bernard Lewis article I mentioned above. Dr. Sultan's call for tolerance and freedom of religion echo this sentiment nicely:
"The United States have adventured upon a great and noble experiment, which is believed to have been hazarded in the absence of all previous precedent—that of total separation of Church and State. No religious establishment by law exists among us. The conscience is left free from all restraint and each is permitted to worship his Maker after his own judgement. The offices of the Government are open alike to all. No tithes are levied to support an established Hierarchy, nor is the fallible judgement of man set up as the sure and infallible creed of faith. The Mahommedan, if he will to come among us would have the privilege guaranteed to him by the constitution to worship according to the Koran; and the East Indian might erect a shrine to Brahma if it so pleased him. Such is the spirit of toleration inculcated by our political Institutions.... The Hebrew persecuted and down trodden in other regions takes up his abode among us with none to make him afraid.... and the Aegis of the Government is over him to defend and protect him. Such is the great experiment which we have tried, and such are the happy fruits which have resulted from it; our system of free government would be imperfect without it.
"The body may be oppressed and manacled and yet survive; but if the mind of man be fettered, its energies and faculties perish, and what remains is of the earth, earthly. Mind should be free as the light or as the air."
"If they were all just slapping fish together or squeezing oranges we would all be fine."
If WE were all just slapping fish together or squeezing oranges we would all be fine.
WOW!!! I just want to shake that chicks hand! Here is someone who gets it. And not only does she get it, but she has the balls to stand up and lay it out for everyone else. Even that J-Hole in the hat. Props to her!
I agree w/Matt G. She should probably look into a body guard and the witness protection program right about now.
To her I say,"Get some, go again Dr."!
Now if we could only line up a celebrity boxing match between her and Hillary. Hmmmm?????
I love her. Though she doesn't believe in the Supernatural, hers were good spiritual comments to ponder for a Sunday afternoon ("Muslims have to ask themselves, what will Muslims will do for humanity?" A good question for all of us to ask.)
Thank you so much for sharing.
Dr. Sultan's comments on a clash of civilizations, while accurate in a broad context, glosses over many of the internal divisions and national/ethnic differences within Islam. Even when we speak of the West, we're referring to Yorkshiremen, Bretons, Swabians, Czechs, Neopolitans, Sephardic Jews, Hispanics, African-Americans, Red Staters and on and on. The central difference between we "westerns" and the Islamic world is Protestants and Catholics no longer butcher each other and , thankfully, Christians have finally stopped killing Jews. Islam does not enjoy a comparable development as Sunnis and Shia , Muslims all, blow each other up on a daily basis in Iraq. Ten years ago, a blink of the historical eye, no one outside of scholars and intelligence anaylsts even knew what Sunnis and Shia were, yet here we are in 2006 fully familiar with the various subdivisions of Islam. Why? Oil, oil, oil. If the West, primarily the US, hadn't created a society utterly dependent on cheap oil, the Islamic Middle East would be about as important to us as Rwandan genocide. The clash of civilizations Dr. Sultan speaks of is between an Islamic world riven by ancient hatreds and the West lashed to the oil pipeline.
double kb c&p: 26s x 10, 35s x 5x5
With Matt G on this one.
Can't find much I disagree with in the video.
Less than 100 days to the World Cup.
Less than 2 weeks to March Madness.
FireFighter Stair climb today, for Leukemia.
69 floors in full bunker gear on air. 17:40
Not my fastest, but pretty happy.
err... wow. As usual, lots of good discussion. Not a lot of things I can comment about. Only thing I can add is that it usually takes a secular humanist to really piss people off fully and (hopefully) make them think. Scientific/rational approaches to religious problems do that. It's refreshing to hear discussions about faith that don't boil down to "whose imaginary friend is better and has the better book."
Is it just me, or is waving your arms like that during a debate body language for "I'm an idiot and have no clue what I'm talking about and wish I could beat you up so you'd understand" ?)
Missed yesterday, no guilt. Went to a wedding over the weekend. In northern Minnesota (neat Grand Rapids.) Pre-wedding festivities included beer and broomball. Broomball, for the uninitiated, is like hockey without skates, and with plastic-molded broom-y things rather than hockey sticks. Oh, and it's a ball instead of a puck. err... hence the name.
Well, after my first head injury (first play, drunken bridesmaid swings through fully and connects with my left eyebrow, some blood, a good story, but no permanent damage), things went very well. Traction was good, and I was able to be where I needed to be and do what I needed to do. Fell down a few times, but bounced up and kept on.
Thing is, six months ago the game would have crippled me. Plus, I wouldn't have been much use during the actual play. I found myself diving into offensive plays, running around people, making scores, retreating back into the defensive zone to recover, then paying attention to my breathing like I do on Crossfit workouts. I spent much more time playing than recovering. Contrast this to 6 months ago, when playing some light touch football put me in serious lactic acid hell for days.
Thanks Coach. Think you're on to something here. If you had ice in Santa Cruz, I'm sure there'd be a broomball workout in there somewhere... "get hit in face, run 6 laps on ice, fall down, repeat, that's one rep."
To cross fit I give my body" but my heart and spirit belongs to my GOD".Having faith takes more courage than anything anyone will ever do.I pray I pass the test!!!.GOD Bless us all even the non believers.
Overhead Squat makeup day...
Ten singles from 115 to 175. D-Ball as a depth guide. BTW=150.
Broomball kicks arse.
strong work -D, you bastard.
I think you should post my body weight and I'll start posting yours.
Brave and articulate.
The world needs to see more of her.
Sadly, I felt like I was watching the opening statement for the end of the world. It seemed that the other side was not listening, but demonizing.
Thanks for posting. I still believe, as I always have, that we'll win because our ideas are better. It is not a direct path nor an easy one, but personal freedoms (speech, religion, association, commerce, etc.) are the bases upon which we will win this ware of ideas. A great thank you to the Dr. for making Mr. Funny Hat look silly as a representative of the Islamo-Fascists.
(My prior point does not mean, however, that I sympathize with the ACLU whom I find to be consistently on the wrong side of issues about which I care deeply.)
69 flights of stairs in 70 pounds of gear: Time 20min 30 Sec.
First post; 4-day lag and did not know comments closed out.
060302 (on 060306)
229 / CFWU
15 minutes / 45 lbs
10 rounds + deadlifts
060303 (on 060307)
060304 (on 060308)
2/3 CFWU (w/push-ups) / Gravitron assist / pull-ups+dips
-90 lbs 4+4X10
Run 1/2 mile
failed on 125 twice at bottom -- started up, but core to weak to keep balance.