Great! I've been using the 'bad' form for the cleans/dead-lifts for my entire life! I've never arched my back at all (not even once) while doing them. What is exactly wrong with the 1st example? Any input would be appreciated...

I'll take deadlifts over shoveling snow any day. Please don't make me shovel any more...

The weak set up looks a lot like me at the start of a deadlift. Could explain the lower numbers. I thought it was my hips!
Hope the clinic this weekend helps get me in line!

i'm a little confused.
today's pic and caption appear to contradict the
earlier observation from WOD 040525:
http://www.crossfit.com/mt-archive2/000423.html
(picture)
http://www.crossfit.com/mt-archive2/flat_back.html

could someone explain?

Good call JC. You've got me scratchin me noggin now, too. As I understand it, deadlifts and cleans have slightly different starting positions. Today's left picture looks more like the DL start, and the right that of a clean.

Have I exposed my ignorance sufficiently or should I do some more?

JW

She looks pretty strong to me in both pictures. :)

I've been taught to do it the second way. If you stand up with that first set up - you will be doing the initial lifting with your back and not your legs. That could hurt.

I didn't look at the links you guys posted but I'm going to now.

Laura "the noob" Rucker
Future Bergener Student T-minus-3 days

I've got another question about the deadlifts.

I'm 6'1" and mostly legs. Whenever I do the deadlifts, it seems I always rip the skin off of my shins when I start in the correct position. My legs get in the way when I straighten out. If I use my back a little more, I can get the bar up without ripping my shins up.

Should I just sacrifice my shins for the proper lift or is there anither solution?

I had a friend years ago, who was a state champion powerlifter, that told me the idea is to rip the skin off your shins and rip the scabs off the next time. I have a feeling he is right but I figured I'd ask anyways.

JP-- I feel your pain. I'm 6'2", mostly legs, and finally got so sick of racing stripes running the length of my shins that I switched to Sumo deads, which for me have a much better starting position, and much lower skin loss index. The other alternative, if you have access to one, is a Trap Bar. Those are awesome, when I can use one it is the only time I can really have perfect deadlift form and not sacrifice my knee caps. Just my .02 Matt

Concerning the shins:

I'm pretty short, abouty 5'9", and even I scuff up my shins sometimes. The answer I've found is to make sure my back stays at max-arch until the bar clears my shins...

When I do DLs, I actually keep it at max-arch until my legs are completely straight.

Did a quick google and found this:
http://www.eng.auburn.edu/users/simonton/wl/snatch.html
note caption 2

just my two euros. . .

I'm with you too JC! The earlier instruction contradicts this new photo. I appreciate the curve in the low back, but her shoulders are in line and somewhat behind the bar. Shouldn't the shoulders be in front of the bar?

Wow, another Matt S. is on here!
Well, I'm 6'4" and all limbs. I eventually have figured out that I pretty much have to sumo lift to get my hips closer to the bar and my torso more upright. Still scrape my shins plenty though. Regular DLs just don't work for my build and believe me I have tried plenty. A trap bar is pure heaven. It's all about great alignment without being limited by the equipment dimensions. Have to git me one o' them. I would use one all the time for DLs if I had one. Regular DLs would only be handy to practice for Oly cleans if at all. Take care,
Matt

I'm not an expert, but here's my take:

I think they were trying to focus on something different in this picture. If you look at the file name of the picture, its "Lani_tri-lat-tuck.jpg". You'll notice the flexed triceps and upper back in the picture on the right, while the triceps aren't flexed in the picture on the lift (the arms look like they might even be bent a little) and the shoulder are drooped forward.

I agree that it looks like her knees are out too far over the bar and her shoulders are behind it. I think this is often what causes the shin scraping that you guys are talking about. Extending your hips faster than your knees will also pull the bar back into your shins rather than straight up. Besides the fact that it hurts, you don't really want to drag the bar up and down your shins too much because the friction is wasting energy. I've found that if I focus on sticking my butt back I can get my shins more vertical. I don't hit my shins and I can lift more.

My understanding about the pictures is this. Most people lose form when they lift heavy. As a culture, we emphasize quad strength over posterior chain strength. This means that we tend to raise the hips (straighten the legs) before lifting the upper body. This does get the knees completely out of the way of the bar, but reveals a weakness in hip strength.

The posterior chain (hams, glutes, low back) is the key to functional performance. Humans generate the most power and explosiveness when their movements move from core to extremity. This means the hips (core) should engage and extend before, or at least at the same time as, the quads (moving toward extremity).

In the picture on the left, Lani is positioned to emphasize leg strength at the expense of core strength. We saw several deadlifts fail today with the legs fully extended and the upper body parallel to the floor.

In the picture on the right, Lani's entire posterior chain is engaged. Plus she has the tri-lat-tuck, which locks the arms, pulls the shoulder blades together, and fires up the entire back. This is the strongest starting position for the deadlift and both Olympic lifts. (JW, we prefer the instruction that the O-lifts begin with the hips slightly higher than for the deadlift because the weights are lighter and the longer lever created allows for greater explosiveness.)

Starting with the picture on the right, proper movement keeps the angle from the hips to the shoulders identical until the bar passes the knees, at which point the shoulders move back over the hips. If holding the upper body in place is hard for you, it indicates weakness in the core back/hip function. Deadlifting with proper form helps, as do back extensions.

And, with proper form, the bar should pass millimeters in front of the shins. But, it's always a good idea to wear sweats if you don't want the occasional scrape.

I think we need Dan John to answer this the best. Pageing Dan John, pageing Dan John to the lifting mat stat.

Make that three "Matt S's" posting today

this is great..I've been wanting to post about scraping the heck out of my shins on DL and you guys pretty much took care of it for me. I'm 6'0" and skinny. I think i'm going to pick up an olympic set and just start practicing light everyday in the garage.

Awesome info Tony B. I love your posts!

I'm not an expert on DL's, but I am a Chiropractor. I can say one thing for sure: On the left she is exposing her lumbar disks to injury because her spine is not in what we call a "close packed" position. A straight, or rounded lower back creates a wedge between the vertebrae, open in the posterior, that over time (or all of a sudden) can allow disk material to migrate posteriorly and eventually herniate. People who are exceptionally strong can get away with bad form, but you're rolling the dice. On the right, there is no wedge formation. There are posterior joints, called facet joints, that are closed down tightly, stabilizing her spine.

Now off to the store for bandaids for my shins!

“The Development of the Clean and Jerk” by David Webster is a scholarly gem on the C&J published in 1964 but still available from IronMind. Get it!

On the subject of the two positions I quote from Coach Webster: “our mathematical calculations prove conclusively that more angular momentum is gained by the more common position (more horizontal back of the picture on the left as opposed to the more upright position on the right) and this mainly because the back being a much longer lever is more important.”

“At first you may be tempted to think that this is only of academic interest, but this is not the case. ANGULAR MOMENTUM OF THE BODY IS TRANSFERRED TO THE BAR. As the body reaches full extension this transference means that the body continues to lower.”

“Although the various levers travel in arcs, if the pull is well done the bar will travel relatively straight so that ANGULAR VELOCITY of the various parts has produced LINEAR MOMENTUM to the bar.”

“Now let’s get back to our lifter in the starting position. It can be seen that a lifter with a very upright back (picture on the right, gang) will reduce the effect of that excellent long lever of the back, as he will only use it through a short range.”

This is, I believe, rock solid mechanics. The parenthetical comments are mine. Here’s my summarization of the two positions: The position on the left can produce a greater vertical acceleration of the bar whereas the position on the right is mechanically advantaged for larger loads. It is instructive to look at the difference in effective throwing versus lifting levers.

For throwing (that’s really what a clean is) we want the load on the end of a long lever and the force applied to a shorter effort arm. When lifting, especially with larger loads (that’s the deadlift) we want the load on a short lever and the force applied to a longer effort arm.

In conclusion the more horizontal starting position on the left is potentially more effective for a clean because velocity is paramount with that lift whereas the position on the right is potentially more advantageous for the deadlift because it is mechanically advantaged for load rather than velocity. Bare in mind that cleans are light and fast compared to deads.

Sorry about the confusion and complexity.

A comment on this picture:
http://www.crossfit.com/mt-archive2/flat_back.html

I'm sure she's not DLing in that pic because she is not using an alternate grip. That is a huge assumption but I've yet to see or read about anyone griping the bar with both palms facing in.

15-12-9 reps of:
"Picture-on-the-right deadlifts"

60,80 and 90kg used. Lovely jubbly!

coach, thank you for the clarification. if i'm understanding correctly, the gist of the difference can be summed up as:

cleans = flat back, shoulders slightly forward of the bar to provide maximum vertical acceleration (040525)
deadlifts = arched back, deeper squat, more vertical posture to provide mechanical advantage for slower, heavy lift (050113 pics)

ie. the relative loads and speed required for the two lifts will neccessitate slightly different starting positions for maximum efficiency. this makes sense to me. thanks again for the explanation!
jason

Thanks Tony B and Coach
That's always been my understanding too. I lose that deadlift position at around the 300pd mark and beyond no matter how hard I try to maintain.
How best to carry that technique to the heavier loads?
Interestingly, I've tried looking at top powerlifting pictures and many have much 'worse' left-side positioning than portrayed here..many with completely rounded backs!

seven sweet letters form into two beautiful words "REST DAY".

Thanks Coach and Tony, your clarifications make all the difference.

The problem I seem to have is that I have been trying to DL the bar for my cleans (I guess the opposite of most people). I have some more practice to do.

I'm going to have to spend some time thinking about this. I was finally thinking "I'm starting to get good form" and now I realize I was doing the stance on the left. For me right now it just feels a lot stronger. The right stance seems very uncomfortable.

One thing I get told about deadlift starting position is that it should feel like you're trying to wedge yourself (your knees) under the bar. Not that its technically possible or that your knees are actually that low, but that's the feeling. Rather than feeling that you're above the bar and ready to lift it (with your back and quads), thinking of trying to wedge yourself under gets your weight back, your chest up, lats and tris working against the bar, and glutes and hamstrings preloaded, as in the right-hand photo of Lani. If I get up from my computer now, even without any bar, and try it out, it helps me feel what these pictures and posts describe.

Another helpful piece of DL advice I've gotten is: as you do the lift, rather than thinking of lifting the weight up (which always makes me do the lifting with my back), think of really pressing your feet down through the floor.

FWIW.

I'm with you, Paul, in that I was using http://www.crossfit.com/mt-archive2/flat_back.html as the stance for my deads and cleans. No biggie, I guess. I've been doing it right for cleans, just have to be more erect for deads.

Three rounds of 800 M run and 95# Front squats X 21 today. Connor used 45# and beat me by a couple of minutes.

Dan John: Push through the floor

I know that today is a reast day, I walked about 2400 steps. I just started the wod's on tuesday.
I am having a lot of fun with them

did a trail run with one of my friends--no idea how long/far. just ran and talked in b/w gasps. very fun and relaxing.

Brian L. - nice work! keep it up, you'll get there!
just be patient and don't give up.
congratulations on a productive day 3!

Got my first unassisted pullup today. Lucky enough to have Jeff standing there supervising and so I got the reward of him saying it was a good one! (That is a great feeling by the way!)

Honest Helen:

440m runs @ ~2:30 per round
21 25# db swings = unbroken all rounds
12 pullups
r1:1 good one then 11 pathetic ones for round 1 unassisted
r2:jumpstretch assisted for 3 good ones and a few pathetic ones and 5 jumps without the band.
r2:jumpstretch assisted for 2 good ones and 4 pathetic ones and then 6 jump assisted without the band.

for a GRAND TOTAL OF 22:19
Well, it can't get worse, so I guess it'll get better.

Hey LauraR, great job!

The first pullup is the hardest! I remember when I first started doing CrossFit watching other people climb ropes and do towel pullups and stuff while I was struggling to do pullups with jumpstretch bands and jump assisted. Don't invalidate yourself! Jump assisted pullups turn into kipping pullups pretty quick, just focus on "surviving" one workout at a time =) have fun!

My workout today - Prehab/Resilent Day:

Warm Up: Joint Mobility: circles from top down, 26lb Tactical Lunges, 26lb slingshots, oly drills with PVC pipe, 12lb Dynamax medicine ball cleans

Military Press: 26lbs 2+2, 44lbs 1+1, 26lbs 1+1, 52lbs 1R+1negativeL, 44lbs 1+1
More joint mobility: arm circles, hip circles, full squats
Towel Pullups 2
Support on rings (rings turned out) 1 minute
Towel Pullups 2
1/2 Turkish Getups 3+3
Butt to floor Wall Squats 15
Resilient Windmills 3+3
Towel Pullups 2
Support on Rings (rings turned in) 1 minute
Neck Wall Extensions 5
Paul Anderson Neck rolls 3+3 up 3+3 down
Russian Hockey Deadlifts 3+3 (no weight)

Thanks, Josh! I use self deprecation to get compliments. ;)

It was tough but we have been discussing the pros and cons of substituting too far down on the ability scale to get better times. I decided to let my times suffer and use the hardest substitution available today.

I did a subbed helen on Tuesday for 15:07 all jump assisted p/u.

This one is the firt one I tried to do with as many unassisted as possible. The REAL pullup was a bonus! What a rush.

i am very impressed by her strength and skill, and love the striped hat!